tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post8965708293139838831..comments2023-11-02T05:00:36.315-04:00Comments on Democratic Convention Watch: Florida and MichiganMatthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02126730290750804530noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-62659418943601895992008-03-12T10:41:00.000-04:002008-03-12T10:41:00.000-04:00Why should Michigan voters be penalized because of...Why should Michigan voters be penalized because of what the bone-head Michigan Democratic Party mafia did? The only fair thing is a do over. Let the Michigan Party pay for it.Shirleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06410168996154478913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-49101473160162677732008-03-11T20:18:00.000-04:002008-03-11T20:18:00.000-04:00Terry - ALLCAPS are the equivalent of yelling in t...Terry - ALLCAPS are the equivalent of yelling in this neigborhood. Please don't use them in the future. Future posts in ALLCAPS will be deleted.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126730290750804530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-91058153136820236752008-03-11T20:16:00.000-04:002008-03-11T20:16:00.000-04:00I KNOW MOST PEOPLE IN FLORIDA CONCEDE THE PRIMARY ...I KNOW MOST PEOPLE IN FLORIDA CONCEDE <BR/>THE PRIMARY TO CLINTON BECAUSE SHE HAD MORE VOTES AND BOTH WERE ON THE BALLOT. HOWEVER, MY POINT IS THAT MY<BR/>WIFE AND I DID NOT VOTE BECAUSE IT WAS GOING TO BE A MOOT POINT. THE DNC STATED THAT NO VOTES WOULD COUNT. SO WE DID NOT BOTHER TO WASTE OUR TIME VOTING FOR EITHER CANDIDATE. WHAT WAS THE POINT IF THE TOTALS WEREN'T GOING TO COUNT AND NO DELEGATES WERE TO BE PLACED. THINK ABOUT THAT SCENARIO. I KNOW ALOT OF PEOPLE WHO FELT THE SAME WAY AS WE DID. ALSO, EDWARDS IS NO-LONGER IN PLAY. THAT TOO MAKES IT A LITTLE UNFAIR FOR EITHER CANDIDATE. I THINK THERE MIGHT BE A FEW OTHER STATES THAT WOULD LIKE TO DO A DO-OVER. HEY GUYS, WE IN FLORIDA BLEW IT AGAIN. NO ONE TO BLAME BUT OUR BRILLIANT AND EDUCATED DEM PARTY. IN MY OPINION , I THINK BOTH STATES SHOULD BE PENALIZED. RULES ARE RULES...IF YOU <BR/>DON'T FOLLOW THE RULES... DON'T PLAY THE GAME!Terry/Cape Coralhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18075096708174501837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-4515445903375030692008-03-11T15:01:00.000-04:002008-03-11T15:01:00.000-04:00Just today found the Rasmussen poll for Michigan p...Just today found the Rasmussen poll for Michigan published on the 7th. Rasmussen says at present a tie on 41% each in Michigan should it be a redo.Bill UKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10350543912587463604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-13632371833060403562008-03-11T13:17:00.000-04:002008-03-11T13:17:00.000-04:00Saw it on MSNBC this morning--Chuck Todd. It seems...Saw it on MSNBC this morning--Chuck Todd. It seems pretty high to me too, that's why I was asking.PseudoPeachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01338046802128093995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-14735051220451908502008-03-11T12:19:00.000-04:002008-03-11T12:19:00.000-04:00Where did you get your +30 net for Clinton for MI ...Where did you get your +30 net for Clinton for MI and FL? I just posted this on Saturday (see link in left sidebar), and it was +10 for Clinton, with the majority undeclared. <BR/><BR/>Also, I'm sure the supers will be allowed back in under any revote scenario.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126730290750804530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-53500990219832015082008-03-11T11:26:00.000-04:002008-03-11T11:26:00.000-04:00The pledged delegate math is pretty close. However...The pledged delegate math is pretty close. However, if the seat the superdelegations of those states, I hear she nets like 30 superdelegates, whose makeup is not affected by any re-vote. Does anyone know if they would still allow the superdelegations in the event of a redo? Seems to me that that part of the punishment should still stand.PseudoPeachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01338046802128093995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-30800770277127775902008-03-11T10:53:00.000-04:002008-03-11T10:53:00.000-04:00The numbers are pretty close, even counting Michig...The numbers are pretty close, even counting Michigan and Florida, and if Obama could work out a deal where he lets the initial vote stand but claims the uncommitted delegates in Michigan he would still be ahead. Has anyone done the math to figure out where the race has to go for Obama to say, "it doesn't matter, go ahead and seat the delegates as they voted before even though it's unfair".Kerylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00687563411658244780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-35375610539853980382008-03-10T16:00:00.000-04:002008-03-10T16:00:00.000-04:00Well Bill, right now the delegates from those stat...Well Bill, right now the delegates from those states aren't being counted, but if there were a redo, they would count. Since Clinton won both of those 'practice primaries,' it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to expect her to win them again. Even if she wins by less this time--which she will--her delegate gap will narrow.<BR/><BR/>Now, considering that Obama wasn't even on the ballot in MI, it's a lot less certain how a redo there would come out. Here in Florida, however, they were both on the ballot. I think there are just too many old people in FL for the state to go for Obama, unless of course we hold a caucus that would keep the old folks past their bedtimes ;) Though I support him, I have to admit that holding new primaries in both states would probably result in her narrowing his lead.<BR/><BR/>No matter what, she can't make up the delegates. I'm just saying why I think he might not want to pay for the redo.<BR/><BR/>As far as the popular vote, I agree with you, it's totally ridiculous for her to count those states in her calculation.PseudoPeachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01338046802128093995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-31300084956419654392008-03-10T11:01:00.000-04:002008-03-10T11:01:00.000-04:00PseudoPeach, how would a redo in both States reduc...PseudoPeach, how would a redo in both States reduce Obama's lead in delegates? <BR/><BR/>The fact is that at present Clinton has way to many delegates allocated to her from the Florida and Michigan primaries. Indeed it would clearly be in Obama's interest to have these States redo, he would then have the lead totally and get rid of this Clinton fallicy about her winning!<BR/><BR/>As it is it is the Clinton camp who do not want a redo, they will lose delegate count heavily. Also then the popular vote would also go Obamas way (remember that in the popular count Obama presently gets zero as his name was not on the ballot). Aredo would allow all to cast or recast their votes and would result in the non-dissenfranchisement of any voter.Bill UKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10350543912587463604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-70447549383011901162008-03-10T10:19:00.000-04:002008-03-10T10:19:00.000-04:00The state parties are allowed to raise soft money ...The state parties are allowed to raise soft money to pay, so theoretically, anyone could pay in any ammount. It could be the campaigns, or some billionaire, or a bunch of internet donors. <BR/><BR/>Apparently, people in the Clinton campaign, such as James Carville, think they can raise the money. But I'll bet the Obama campaign would push for a least one of the states to be a caucus, both to save money and to avoid paying to erode their own delegate lead.<BR/><BR/>Florida is going be expensive! I'm really curious to see where this money ends up coming from.PseudoPeachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01338046802128093995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-57616169055696746612008-03-09T12:45:00.000-04:002008-03-09T12:45:00.000-04:00I think it is the state dem party's responsibility...I think it is the state dem party's responsibility to select delegates according to the rules. If they need help paying for it, or someone wants to offer help, discussions about that should take place without using the media as a go between.DaxDiamondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02645416017381116237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-3500731239504511872008-03-08T19:35:00.000-05:002008-03-08T19:35:00.000-05:00on dax's idea -I heard something in passing on CNN...on dax's idea -<BR/><BR/>I heard something in passing on CNN about Clinton proposing that the two campaigns split the cost...<BR/><BR/>Now - honest disclaimer - I have an 18-mo-old who was tugging at me, and I'm on a really slow connection so can't search to confirm online.<BR/><BR/>Anyone else hear about this? Dax - what do you think about that?Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11237469493294654968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-69351898574573967152008-03-08T11:37:00.000-05:002008-03-08T11:37:00.000-05:00Legally, because of dissenfranchisement of voters,...Legally, because of dissenfranchisement of voters, the answer has to be a re-run of both Florida and Michigan. Otherwise I can see law suits coming out left, right, and centre here.<BR/><BR/>Of course the other option is to let the rule stand and not count Florida and Michigan which would be farsical to say the least.<BR/><BR/>Re-run or hold the only two arguments that would stand up in court. Just my opinion.Bill UKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10350543912587463604noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-20051281312091145772008-03-08T00:24:00.000-05:002008-03-08T00:24:00.000-05:00When Republicans agreed to admit 50% of the delega...When Republicans agreed to admit 50% of the delegates from both MI and FL, where is the problem for this bone heads in the DNC?<BR/><BR/>Republican legislature and Governor moved the date in FL, which is their right. Likewise the Democratic legislature and Governor moved their date in MI, which is their right.<BR/><BR/>What right DNC has on this matter, except to get to commit suicide?<BR/><BR/>Republicans acted like adults, and accepted the voters of two important States FL and MI. The bone heads in DNC still talking about the moribund "Rules".<BR/><BR/>I will suggest that FL had both BHO and HRC's name in the ballot. So accept as is, period.<BR/><BR/>In MI, redo the Primary with the poor DNC paying the bill, because they want to follow some bogus Rule.<BR/><BR/>Howard Dean and DNC are on a suicidal mode to disenfranchise millions of voters in the name of useless bogus "Rules". The most important part is to be reasonable and listen to the voters, their concerns and to see how Republicans have put us in this hole!<BR/><BR/>We need Smart People in DNC and not Smart Asses!<BR/><BR/>Shame on DNC to even think about disenfranchising the voters who just obeyed what their States asked them to do!<BR/><BR/>Democrats we all look very stupid in the eyes of the American electorate, period. <BR/><BR/>Are we really qualified to earn the White House? DNC is not, in my view.Yamakahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17593166843593209807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-30592941397157274422008-03-07T21:10:00.000-05:002008-03-07T21:10:00.000-05:00The result of the rule breaking primaries are irre...The result of the rule breaking primaries are irrelevent, should not count, and will not count.<BR/><BR/>Seating a 50-50 delegation is meaningless and is nothing more than a fake fix.<BR/><BR/>There is nothing wrong with FL and/or MI electing delegates now, using a procedure that is within the rules.<BR/><BR/>The DNC should not pat for a redo. The taxpayer should not pay. If the state parties want to send delegates to the convention, they should pay. If they can get somebody (like the candidates) to help them, fine.<BR/><BR/>It is in Obama's interest to have a redo. No matter the outcome, he will still have a comfortable lead in elected delegates. There is no way the supers would overturn that. It is to his advantage to just get this issue off the table so that nobody has an excuse/reason to say that his elected delegate victory is not legitimate. And since he will be the nominee, he does not want MI and FL voters peaved at the Dem party in Nov.<BR/><BR/>The smartest move he could make right now is to ask his 1 million internet contributors to contribute money to a separate fund that would pay for a redo. That would force Clinton to do the same. Problem solved.DaxDiamondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02645416017381116237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-82193323591391231632008-03-07T15:52:00.000-05:002008-03-07T15:52:00.000-05:00Thanks John -I HATE! having to admit that MI proba...Thanks John -<BR/><BR/>I HATE! having to admit that MI probably shouldn't do a redo because the financial drain is too much - even though I think Hillary could have a net gain of delegates. But, I'm all about the personal responsibility...even though it STINKS! :)<BR/><BR/>Well, hopefully I'll meet you next year after our nominee (because, by then it'll be ours rather than yours or mine) is elected. I'm really hoping all this outrage can translate into increased party involvement and some good fixes to these problems that get this all out of the way for 2016. (Let's just assume our kick-tusch president in 2011 is one of these two, so the nomination will be moot in 2012. Sound good?)Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11237469493294654968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-86436537199203350392008-03-07T15:27:00.000-05:002008-03-07T15:27:00.000-05:00Since it looks more & more likely that we are goin...Since it looks more & more likely that we are going to a brokered convention. Maybe the thing to do is use the following formula.<BR/><BR/>President = 1st place pledged delegates (excluding supers)<BR/><BR/>Vice President = 2nd place pledged delegates (excluding supers)<BR/><BR/>Basically taking away the power of the Democratic Presidential Nominee of naming their running mate since they didn't clinch the required pledged delegates. Then again, I'm not a believer in forced marriages. loljohnczhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06988454581392819569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-41111590026447094632008-03-07T15:17:00.000-05:002008-03-07T15:17:00.000-05:00Carrie - "If people would stop being such Bush-sty...Carrie - <BR/><BR/>"If people would stop being such Bush-style, "disobey-and-feel-my-wrath" jerks about the whole thing, we might able to actually strike some peace around this"<BR/><BR/>Agreed. As a proud & steadfast supporter for Senator Obama..I will voice my opinion & vote accordingly if I think he is getting raw deal. I'll reserve final judgement until I see what action the DNC takes if any. Both campaigns know there are plenty of races left in this nomination process. The Clinton campaign is inching closer and we in the Senator Obama movement are looking for ways to stretch our lead. I hope we can all agree..this is a historic and one heck of a race.johnczhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06988454581392819569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-15495793148061768612008-03-07T14:15:00.000-05:002008-03-07T14:15:00.000-05:00Johncz -I just reread your post and mine - I think...Johncz -<BR/><BR/>I just reread your post and mine - I think you were responding to my second post. If you take a look at the first, it will give you a better sense of why I don't want my state party to foot the bill (not that they aren't responsible).Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11237469493294654968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-58343513551495560822008-03-07T13:16:00.000-05:002008-03-07T13:16:00.000-05:00Yes johncz - that's what I said. That's why I don'...Yes johncz - that's what I said. That's why I don't think we should redo it. If some "mystery stranger" wanted to foot the bill (and I can't imagine who that might be), then I would be fine redoing it. I think the MI party - which includes me as a dues-payin', card-totin' member - would be the people who should pay. I just think our state party should save its pennies for protecting state legislators.<BR/><BR/>THAT's what's in the best interests of all democrats - state and DNC.<BR/><BR/>Now - as to this being an attempt to bring Obama down - that's just GARBAGE! I'm pretty reasonable about this - willing to share in the responsibility, etc. However, I'm seriously tired of comments like these that completely disregard and trivialize the serious issues that my state is facing - the issues that drove us to act out of desperation and make a weak grasp at relevance.<BR/><BR/>If people would stop being such Bush-style, "disobey-and-feel-my-wrath" jerks about the whole thing, we might able to actually strike some peace around this.<BR/><BR/>Consequences with empathy are the most effective. Every undergrad teacher prep program covers that... Consequences with spite and venom yield results like this - angry people all arguing that nothing's fair. For THAT I do blame the DNC, and because of behavior like that I DO think Obama's shown poor leadership.Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11237469493294654968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-36406883039688157612008-03-07T12:57:00.000-05:002008-03-07T12:57:00.000-05:00Carrie, thats going to be very expensive..we are t...Carrie, thats going to be very expensive..we are talking about 10's of millions of dollars in florida alone. I truly believe that the State Democratic Party leadership should take responsibility and fund it themselves. Of course, they like to place blame on the DNC. The DNC told these folks what the consequences would be.johnczhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06988454581392819569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-22894196324681440402008-03-07T12:09:00.000-05:002008-03-07T12:09:00.000-05:00One other quick thought - The consequence said tha...One other quick thought - <BR/><BR/>The consequence said that a primary held prior to 2/5 wouldn't count. For their part, the candidates all agreed not to campaign for the early primaries.<BR/><BR/>The consequence never precluded our holding a second contest in compliance with the rules originally laid out. There is nothing unfair or out of line with the rules about MI & FL do a redo.<BR/><BR/>Whatever the outcome, the truly intended consequence was already fulfilled - MI and FL did not have the impact on early fundraising and momentum that early states enjoy.Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11237469493294654968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-71953260146425628222008-03-07T10:58:00.000-05:002008-03-07T10:58:00.000-05:00Michigan voter, here...I have some serious inner c...Michigan voter, here...<BR/><BR/>I have some serious inner conflict on what's fair.<BR/><BR/>- I think it's fair that our delegates won't count as is because we broke the rules. The 600k of us who voted in the democratic primary (3.6x as many as in 2004) knew this.<BR/>- I think splitting the delegates 50/50 between candidates amounts to not counting them (same outcome), and I really don't think it represents the will of the voters here. That'd actually cheese me off - it's no more fair than not counting us, it just tries to fake fairness.<BR/>- Clinton didn't break any rules in MI or Florida. There was no agreement to remove names from the ballot - that was an independent decision made by Obama and Edwards. Clinton didn't campaign here. Obama didn't either, but he did have "Get Out the Uncommitted Vote" rallies posted on his website and, when I sent a letter of woe to his campaign, the response said it couldn't tell how to vote (since that would be breaking the rules), but I could always vote uncommitted.<BR/>- A redo could be done fairly, but:<BR/>--A caucus/short window primary would not be fair or democratic in MI: we have a 24-hour struggling workforce and no public transportation. We had >2k polling sites in our primary - which is necessary because our state is pretty spread out. From what I've read/heard, we'd likely have <200 caucus sites. Accessibility would be a major issue, and one that would introduce bias.<BR/>--Some mystery stranger would have to pay for it. I say this because I think it should be the state dem party's responsibility to pay for it. The state itself already paid for 1, and we're way, WAY too broke to pay for another - and non dem tax payers shouldn't foot the bill. So, the state dem party - which drove the peaceful protest that was our delegateless primary - should pay out of fairness. That said, our state party has 12 legislators under recall petition for tax increases introduced to cover a huge budget shortfall and maintain vital services (legacy of a most vile republican governor). Our embattled, albeit wonderful governor is also under recall. Any state party resources should be directed at protecting those seats.<BR/><BR/>- I don't blame the state party or the DNC any more than I blame myself. Where was I when this game of chicken was being played? I was following along on NPR. I didn't act. My own darned fault. I think the DNC could/should have dealt the consequences with empathy and compassion (any other teachers out here?). I think MI's points were COMPLETELY valid - the early 4 did not represent the large industrial states. After Iowa, the media was saying that if Obama took NH, he could clinch the nomination...BECAUSE OF IA & NH! Those two tiny states look NOTHING like MI. MI acted out of desperation because, as as a state with double the unemployment of IA or NH, we need a president who shares our priorities - which would be different from the priorities of the early 4 states. <BR/><BR/>That said, I choose to view my delegateless vote as a sacrificial lamb on the altar of misgivings we now all share about the democratic nomination process (MI/FL & super delegates). Let's all follow up next spring, after our nominee is elected, and get this stuff fixed far ahead of 2012!Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11237469493294654968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-85595457361234109152008-03-07T02:15:00.000-05:002008-03-07T02:15:00.000-05:00Do the candidates have any say in this? I know Cli...Do the candidates have any say in this? I know Clinton has been saying that a caucus would be unacceptable to her--but does she have any power in the matter?Templehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00990848203354355034noreply@blogger.com