tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post6505105984556449795..comments2023-11-02T05:00:36.315-04:00Comments on Democratic Convention Watch: Pledged Delegate Switches to ObamaMatthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02126730290750804530noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-8138811095009392452008-05-13T16:48:00.000-04:002008-05-13T16:48:00.000-04:00Johnson is a very interesting case.He is the elect...Johnson is a very interesting case.<BR/><BR/>He is the elected County Executive, the highest county office. Prince George's County is the second largest (in terms of population) county in Maryland, with the largest AA population in the state, and the county went overwhelmingly for Senator Obama.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, Johnson was not selected from the 4th Congressional District, but on a state level, which means he (theoretically) goes to the convention representing all of Senator Clinton's supporters in the entire state.<BR/><BR/>The politics of PG County are crazy, and are usually the laughing stock of the entire state. So for this to come from PG Count is not at all surprising.<BR/><BR/>However, it is ironic that this puts Senator Clinton in a real bind. No matter what happens, she loses.<BR/><BR/>If nothing is done, she loses the delegate.<BR/><BR/>If she pushes to replace him, she loses her argument that pledged delegates can change their vote.<BR/><BR/>Nice trap she set for herself.<BR/><BR/>MikeMike in Marylandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02848893412251095965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-26322850991416190342008-05-13T16:06:00.000-04:002008-05-13T16:06:00.000-04:00Aaron,I agree with you. First, I don't think in Ma...Aaron,<BR/>I agree with you. First, I don't think in Maryland voters changed their minds a lot since February. Haven't heard about riot in maryland and angry AA on the streets. Second, if this guy had issues with Clinton why did he accept the position? Really, with a very few exception due to scandals connected with a candidate, pledged delegates should remain pledged...<BR/><BR/>BTW, if Mr. Johnson likes Obama so much, why didn't he apply for Obama's pledged?<BR/><BR/>I am Obama fan; just like Yousri in my heart I am pleased he is one delegate closer to the nomination; but most of me is unpleased with this guy and I am glad that the campaign did not encourage similar actions from other pledged delegates!Amothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14842726780505390305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-40398647367015378752008-05-13T16:04:00.000-04:002008-05-13T16:04:00.000-04:00Interesting post. But the switching speaks ill of ...Interesting post. But the switching speaks ill of the superdelegate process itself, which militates against the democratic voting process and sets up democratic candidates against each other.Mac Daddy Tribute Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01483912561779369669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-49841385710903386052008-05-13T16:02:00.000-04:002008-05-13T16:02:00.000-04:00KCinDC,I do understand you point view.And to be ho...KCinDC,<BR/><BR/>I do understand you point view.<BR/>And to be honest with you that will not matter anyway.<BR/>I have been looking at all news media, the campaigns, CSPAN, and bloggers and every thing on the net, and I can say for certainty , that Sen. Obama will lock up the nomination within 3-7 days from the last primary, which should be around Jun. 5-10, 2008.Yousrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04143476704425595336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-84415813880925036662008-05-13T15:54:00.001-04:002008-05-13T15:54:00.001-04:00Amot- Jack Johnson is an African American, who is ...Amot- <BR/><BR/>Jack Johnson is an African American, who is the County Executive of the weathiest Black Majority County in the United States. <BR/><BR/>He did this to garner attention, and to try to have it both ways. The Obama Delegate slate was incredibly competitive, while the Clinton Slate was not. DNC rules say that you need a certain % of minorities on your State Delegation, and he filled that % by becoming a Clinton Delegate. <BR/><BR/>Jack Johnson is not a trusted figure and his association with Keith Washington (Google "Keith Washington" under Google News) and other peopel make him smarmy. <BR/><BR/>Finally, I will say that he is just trying to be an attention monger, and what he is doing is absolutely wrong. <BR/><BR/>I am glad the Obama Campaign has distanced themselves from this action. <BR/><BR/>Aaron (Obama supporter)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15727377348543639102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-59629505701112949372008-05-13T15:54:00.000-04:002008-05-13T15:54:00.000-04:00Yousri, if there were some horrible revelation abo...Yousri, if there were some horrible revelation about a candidate between the primary and the convention that clearly was leading most of the candidate's voters in a state or district to change their minds, then I would have no problem with pledged delegates changing their votes. It's not the sort of thing I expect to have happen often.KCinDChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07153981202251819626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-86523305800642943512008-05-13T15:52:00.000-04:002008-05-13T15:52:00.000-04:00Amot,I think I answered your question in my previo...Amot,<BR/>I think I answered your question in my previous comment.<BR/>I also want to remind you that we are on the same team!Yousrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04143476704425595336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-37001982932106634432008-05-13T15:43:00.000-04:002008-05-13T15:43:00.000-04:00Yousri,if the pledged delegate is elected and appr...Yousri,<BR/>if the pledged delegate is elected and approved by the campaign he can change his vote to uncommited or to other candidate. However 10 days look too short time for good reasons to emerge! 'The unity of the party' is not good reason for any pledged delegate. If he personally thinks he must support Obama he could endorse Obama personally and resign as pledged! So I agree with you on that!<BR/><BR/>But....<BR/><BR/>KCinDC is aboslutely right - if with time the voters change their minds and the pledged delegate share their feeling, he is allowed to switch, sometimes he must switch, and sometimes he must not resign and allow the campaign to keep a delegate they don't deserve anymore. Again my point - the elk state! If ID pledged delegates were chosen by now (unfortunately they are not and Clinton will vet them very carefully if she is in the race until June 10th), those ID delegates would have the full right to switch, they would be obliged to switch in order to represent the voters! Do you [Yousri] think that Hillary would win more than 10% if ID recaucus? Do you think she deserves any ID delegates at the moment? I don't believe in the infinite and unquestionable support...Amothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14842726780505390305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-54929968791455906602008-05-13T15:42:00.000-04:002008-05-13T15:42:00.000-04:00“I can imagine circumstances in which changing the...“I can imagine circumstances in which changing the vote would be necessary to represent the voters properly rather than stubbornly attempting to represent what the voters believed months previously.”<BR/><BR/>May be I should’ve stated “Represent the voter at the time of the primary”. <BR/><BR/>If we are going to look at the general mode now and say many voters might have a change of heart and they probably will change their vote now. Then the accurate and right thing to do is to repeat all the primaries and caucuses.<BR/><BR/>I also strongly disagree with Sen. Clinton's own interpretation of what "pledged" means.<BR/><BR/>And, as an Obama supporter, I was very happy that he had a net gain of 2 with this switch. Which made his nomination a little closer, hopefully by May 20. :-)Yousrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04143476704425595336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-81899881445133152622008-05-13T15:30:00.000-04:002008-05-13T15:30:00.000-04:00Yousri, I don't agree with what Johnson did, and I...Yousri, I don't agree with what Johnson did, and I think he's an opportunist. I only say that he's a Clinton delegate following Clinton's own interpretation of what "pledged" means.<BR/><BR/>I also disagree with your statement that "There is no excuse for a pledged delegate to defy the Voters whom he/she should represent" -- at least if you mean that any change of vote is defying the voters. I can imagine circumstances in which changing the vote would be <I>necessary</I> to represent the voters properly rather than stubbornly attempting to represent what the voters believed months previously. I don't think those circumstances apply now, however.KCinDChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07153981202251819626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-44084184252927465962008-05-13T15:19:00.000-04:002008-05-13T15:19:00.000-04:00KCinDC and Amot,There is no excuse for a pledged d...KCinDC and Amot,<BR/><BR/>There is no excuse for a pledged delegate to defy the Voters whom he/she should represent.<BR/>If a delegate feels that he/she was treated badly or offended by any campaign and can’t keep their pledge in good conscious, then they should ask the campaign to replace them.<BR/><BR/>They suppose to “REPRESENT” the voters, not their personal feeling!!!Yousrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04143476704425595336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-67635670379299126652008-05-13T15:04:00.000-04:002008-05-13T15:04:00.000-04:00Amot, wouldn't Johnson fit into the category of "A...Amot, wouldn't Johnson fit into the category of "AA delegates, that where insulted by Clinton campaign and come from predominantly AA districts"? Johnson is African-American, as is two thirds of the population of Prince George's County, which he represents (in his office, not as a convention delegate).KCinDChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07153981202251819626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-64465963192896077662008-05-13T14:57:00.000-04:002008-05-13T14:57:00.000-04:00Amot --On this day when the waiting is oppressive,...Amot --<BR/><BR/>On this day when the waiting is oppressive, I think your comment was not only spot on, but insightful and meaningful.<BR/><BR/>On top of all that -- you know the difference between "de facto" and "de jure". My heart swells with joy.....<BR/><BR/>JessicaDocJesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11671370085437127234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-39443010042504649562008-05-13T14:41:00.000-04:002008-05-13T14:41:00.000-04:00I think this switch is something wrong. I agree wi...I think this switch is something wrong. I agree with Yousri that should not happen. I agree with Oreo that guy just want some attention! I agree with Jessica that he can <I>de jure</I> switch his vote. But I don't see the necessity.<BR/><BR/>And I think Galois had the best remark on that case. We have to ask this guy the questions:<BR/>1. Who do you represent? - 'Maryland Dem voters supporting Clinton' should be the correct answer<BR/>2. Do you think the people you represent don't support the same candidate anymore? - Maybe some do, but most still support her/him - the correct answer<BR/>3. Why the hell you want to switch then? Did anyone asked you to?- hhhhm, no one asked me to...<BR/><BR/>I think there are only handful of delegates that have the right to switch: AA delegates, that where insulted by Clinton campaign and come from predominantly AA districts; ID delegates, because of the elk comment; and probably some other delegates whose states or districts were threated bad from any of the campaigns - latte-drinkers for example...<BR/>That MD guy - he has no reason! Shame on him!!!Amothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14842726780505390305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-56290849514132679432008-05-13T14:38:00.000-04:002008-05-13T14:38:00.000-04:00Bobert, since Johnson is a pledged at-large delega...Bobert, since Johnson is a pledged at-large delegate for Clinton, the people who elected him are effectively those who voted for Clinton in the primary in the whole state of Maryland. I doubt a majority of those people are supporting Obama now, though a fair number may have changed their minds.KCinDChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07153981202251819626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-43100368038806005712008-05-13T14:23:00.000-04:002008-05-13T14:23:00.000-04:00Matt:I'm not sure why you said:"And the article sa...Matt:<BR/>I'm not sure why you said:<BR/>"And the article says he was appointed by the Maryland Democratic State Central Committee (to a state at-large position) in consultation with the Clinton campaign, which also does not sound like the normal process."<BR/><BR/>The normal process is set out in the <A HREF="http://www.mddems.com/pdf/2008_Maryland_Delegate_Selection_Plan.pdf" REL="nofollow">Maryland Delegate Selection Plan</A>:<BR/>III.D.3. Presidential Candidate Right of Review<BR/>a. The State Democratic Chair shall convey to the presidential candidate, or that candidate’s<BR/>authorized representative(s), not later than April 21, 2008 at 5 pm, a list of all persons who have filed for delegate or alternate pledged to that presidential candidate. (Rule 12.D.)<BR/>(Reg. 4.22. & 4.27.)<BR/>b. Each presidential candidate, or that candidate’s authorized representative(s), must then<BR/>file with the State Democratic Chair, immediately after the selection of pledged PLEO<BR/>delegates, a list of all such candidates he or she has approved, provided that, at a<BR/>minimum, two (2) names remain for every national convention delegate or alternate<BR/>position to which the presidential candidate is entitled. (Rule 12.E.(2) & Reg. 4.23.)"<BR/><BR/>This is pretty much the same process used in every state and while not quite a "consultation", it's pretty close, especially since, in Maryland, the candidate's filing was scheduled to take place during the State Central Committee meeting on May 1.Dink Singerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15138406589320184402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-1589854151000527342008-05-13T14:02:00.000-04:002008-05-13T14:02:00.000-04:00I know in my state and in most of the rules in oth...I know in my state and in most of the rules in other states that I have looked at the campaigns have the right to reject candidates for the delegate slots. There are reasons -- mostly not wanting to tick folks off -- that they rarely use this power. <BR/><BR/>My experience is also that -- by the time you get to the state level -- there tends to be unofficial "official" slates that the campaign has approved to assure meeting all of the diversity goals and other interests of the state party (e.g. unions, trial attorneys, major local democratic organizations). <BR/><BR/>Based on that experience, it does not seem unusual that Johnson was the result of coordination between the Maryland party and the Clinton campaign. However, if Johnson had previously been leaning toward Obama and switched to Clinton, someone in the Clinton campaign was asleep at the wheel.<BR/><BR/>As a result of the 1982 changes, Clinton would not get to replace Johnson.tmess2https://www.blogger.com/profile/06331751179859344009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-74338789779942273852008-05-13T13:20:00.000-04:002008-05-13T13:20:00.000-04:00Listen, Yousri -- I think it's a degenerate, lousy...Listen, Yousri -- I think it's a degenerate, lousy, disingenuous thing also -- but I'm having trouble functioning....it is all SO CLOSE and while I agree in principle with EVERYTHING you say on the switcher, in my heart, all I hear is the beat of "one more, one more" and I know I shouldn't feel that way.<BR/><BR/>I believe in PROCESS (which is why I agree that he shouldn't switch) -- and I believe PROCESS trumps the candidates, because if the process fails, we're all toast.<BR/><BR/>But it's SO CLOSE....so apologies.DocJesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11671370085437127234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-4810577600931928322008-05-13T12:57:00.000-04:002008-05-13T12:57:00.000-04:00DocJess,I am a very strong Obama Supporter and I a...DocJess,<BR/><BR/>I am a very strong Obama Supporter and I am on the DCW team as well.<BR/><BR/>My posts have nothing to do with which candidate I support.<BR/>That was just the issue of Pledged delegate switch in general.Yousrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04143476704425595336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-12947359588616202292008-05-13T12:55:00.001-04:002008-05-13T12:55:00.001-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Boberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13616804879157498690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-66481477708905523082008-05-13T12:55:00.000-04:002008-05-13T12:55:00.000-04:00"shall in all good conscience reflect the sentimen..."shall in all good conscience reflect the sentiments of those who elected them."<BR/><BR/>If a majority of the people who elected him as a delegate feel the same way, then that is fine. He lives in that county and should know what the current general sentiment is. Considering the strong Obama support in that county, the change in sentiment wouldn't surprise me too much.Boberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13616804879157498690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-8377980476400750092008-05-13T12:46:00.000-04:002008-05-13T12:46:00.000-04:00Now, now -- how you see this depends on your persp...Now, now -- how you see this depends on your perspective. If you're neutral, like Oreo, it doesn't really matter since it's "fair" under the "Clinton rules".<BR/><BR/>If you're a Clintonista, it's a real problem of rats from a sinking ship.<BR/><BR/>HOWEVER -- the real thing here is that pledged delegates are required by some state legislation (in some of the states) to hold to their pledges. In other states, it's the state parties that make them sign paperwork.<BR/><BR/>BUT -- no one has EVER been prosecuted for changing one's vote. The law just never took it up. (Although it would be an interesting case from a Constitutional perspective).<BR/><BR/>Therefore -- anyone who is supposed to be pledged and changes his mind (twice so far)is just a simple turncoat. Can't be trusted one way or another.<BR/><BR/>He legally can do what he did. Morally, he lacks ethics. <BR/><BR/>Let it play out --- it will not actually matter in August.DocJesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11671370085437127234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-62632323507533796022008-05-13T12:43:00.000-04:002008-05-13T12:43:00.000-04:00Yousri... You may be on to something. You should...Yousri...<BR/> You may be on to something. You should send your idea to Howard Dean ;)Oreohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12605488381872007551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-42627157389751465082008-05-13T12:41:00.000-04:002008-05-13T12:41:00.000-04:00Oreo siad."We talk a lot about so-called pledged d...Oreo siad.<BR/><BR/>"We talk a lot about so-called pledged delegates, but every delegate is expected to exercise independent judgment," she said.<BR/><BR/>Well, in that case, we should forget about primaries and caucuses and select "Random Numbers" of people and tell them exercise your independent judgement.<BR/><BR/>This is wrong on many levels.Yousrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04143476704425595336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18747118.post-62710870825736253772008-05-13T12:22:00.000-04:002008-05-13T12:22:00.000-04:00Yousri, I completely agree and think that he's b...Yousri,<BR/> I completely agree and think that he's being an attention whore (pardon the term).<BR/><BR/>That said... Clinton said it was ok that pledged delegates switch. The Obama campaign has commented on it now what does Clinton say after she <A HREF="http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/26/clinton.delegates/index.html" REL="nofollow">said this in the past</A>:<BR/><BR/><I> "Every delegate with very few exceptions is free to make up his or her mind however they choose," Clinton told Time's Mark Halperin in an interview published Wednesday.<BR/><BR/>"We talk a lot about so-called pledged delegates, but every delegate is expected to exercise independent judgment," she said.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think she can say anything against it.Oreohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12605488381872007551noreply@blogger.com