Democratic Convention Watch: Open Thread

Sunday, March 02, 2008

Open Thread

WE'VE MOVED! Democratic Convention Watch is now at http://www.DemocraticConventionWatch.com

Who's going to win, who has a better chance against McCain, or whatever else is on your mind.

Update: We have decided to stop allowing anonymous comments. Not because we don't like reading what people have to say but because Blogger has introduced a new "feature" that makes you go to a second page when the number of comments go over 200.

It's very easy to set up a Google account so that you can continue commenting.

Thanks!

901 comments:

«Oldest ‹Older 801 – 901 of 901 Newer› Newest»

jpsedona said...: Yamaka,

There's no doubt that hillary failed on universal healthcare because she wanted a single payer model. In that instance the Federal Government would run it.

She gone out of her way to distance herself from that position and indicate that it won't be a government run solution.

She failed on healthcare because it would have turned into a larger tax burden on the American people than social security and medicare combined.; April 20, 2008 2:16 PM
jpsedona said...: Yakama,

"In FL he violated the pledge and ran cable Campaign Ads. This is the dishonesty of the confused soul. He must be punished by giving no delegates for him - or atleast 50% penalty."

Using that rationale, then when Hillary said MI votes don't count, we should penalize her all those pledged delegates. Send them all to the convention out of MI as unpledged. The problem with that idea is that someone has to choose the delegates, and that leaves MI in the same predicament.; April 20, 2008 2:20 PM
Yamaka said...: jim:

Good question. Please keep asking.

Not only fuzzy math, but also a messy book-keeping, perhaps.

Liars' noses are bleeding!; April 20, 2008 2:25 PM
jpsedona said...: Jim,

That's a great question about 1.3 million donors and average under $100. I don't know but suspect that the 1.3 million is only online donots. It may not include direct solicitations (standard campaign donorship methods).; April 20, 2008 2:25 PM
Yamaka said...: HRC never violated any Party Rule or Pledge.

She just says that simply Count ALL votes, and we have no right to disenfranchise any voter, any State. Period.

This is a superior doctrine in Democracy - this trumps any inferior Rule of a Party.

A National Party workers for ALL States, not for a few. The question is: Is Democratic Party a National Party?

The "Date Rule" was very badly implemented by the Party, IMO. This could have been well thought out, and avoided.

Remember, Republicans also ran into this issue. The quietly solved it to the satisfaction of ALL.

Are Democrats very messy people? If they are, then we need to shape up, before we get shipped out of a Victory in the Fall!

Cheers.; April 20, 2008 2:33 PM
jpsedona said...: Yamaka,

You are being dishonest.

Hillary SIGNED a pledge last August to not "campaign or participate" in the MI or FL primaries. She participated in both primaries and campaigned in Florida.

Do you know who the most notable name of the 30 people who voted to totaly disenfranchise ALL Florida's Dems? It was HArold Ickes. I think he has something to do with the Clinton campaign, doesn't he?; April 20, 2008 2:45 PM
Anonymous said...: jp,
I thought that too, but according to USA Today Obama's total through March was $237 million
from over 1,300,000 supporters. If you add in the 130 Million, that gives him over $367 million so far.
IMO, something doesn't jive; April 20, 2008 3:05 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Jim said: "Obama surrogate states Obama has over 1.3 million contributors
with the average contribution being $96 .
I checked his website and it shows 1,363,299 contributors and multiplied by $96.00
equals only $130,876,704."
_________________

Jim, first you have to know what the word 'average' means. And you need to learn how to calculate an 'average' in math.

You can not multiply the average ($96) by the number of contributors to get the total amount of donations. Some people gave less $ than $96 and some people gave the limit amount of $2,300.; April 20, 2008 3:12 PM
Judy Bienvenu said...: Fuzzy/Silly math regarding Obama contributions.

Nice try. You're forgetting about repeat donations. I've donated 3 times. Many others repeatedly donate as well. So I'm one of the 1.3 million people giving money. But the average contribtion is ALL donations averaged out to get a median donations.; April 20, 2008 3:13 PM
Yamaka said...: "She participated in both primaries and campaigned in Florida".

She left her name in both primaries, which is her right. BHO removed in MI, but left it in FL - his right too.

But he DID campaign in FL by running cable campaign Ads. That's against his pledge. That's what we are objecting in fairness.

No, she DID NOT campaign in MI or FL, period. But surrogates of both did. That is okay, as per the Rule.

After the polls closed, she appeared in public forum to thank the hard work of Floridians. Very kind of her.

It is MORE important whether BHO is honest and trustworthy? Whether he has the character, judgment and credibility. IMO, he is NOT.

I am just an observer of political events, and analyzer of Policies! Lol.
-----------------------------------
An Open Letter to Barack Hussein Obama Jr. Senator of Illinois.

Yes, I am a bitter critique of you.

But, you have some potential to be a National Leader. Please do the following:

1. Move politically to the Center Left.
2. Get the blessings of Maestro Bill Clinton. He should be your Guru, and you his disciple.
3. Work hard as a Senator; accumulate lots of Washington experience.
4. Do NOT pander to everybody you see everywhere.
5. In your late Fiftees (8-12 years from now), you will be a perfect Nominee Dems for the POTUS.
6. IMO, you jumped the gun. It is too soon for you. You took the bait of your Sponsors, the BigMoneyBags!!

If you do this, I will blog every day of every month in favor of you.

But, not now, Sorry. HRC is far superior to you as a Nominee in 2008. God Bless You, and America.

Cheers. :) :) :); April 20, 2008 3:14 PM
dwit said...: Look guys, all of your conspiracy theories involving the FEC laundering donations for the Obama campaign are silly and fun, but shouldn't we be happy that the more progressive party is out raising John McCain's Nazi Party by more than 3 to 1?; April 20, 2008 3:22 PM
Anonymous said...: Leah,

"Jim, first you have to know what the word 'average' means. And you need to learn how to calculate an 'average' in math."

I actually do know how to calculate average. With all due respect, you do not.

Maybe you are thinking about median or mean, I don't know.

Here is a little math excercise for you.

10+20+20+30+30+10=120 for 6 donors
120/6=20 average; April 20, 2008 3:28 PM
jpsedona said...: Yakama,

"No, she DID NOT campaign in MI or FL, period. But surrogates of both did. That is okay, as per the Rule."

Check your facts.

Unlike Obama, she appeared in Florida on the Sunday before the primary. Yes, she was at a fund raiser. This was right after the SC primary mess. But if the timing doesn't say campaigning, why not wait until AFTER the vote?; April 20, 2008 3:32 PM
RobH said...: Yamaka:

"He is a Jewel Thief!! A Pathological Liar and A Master Cameleon."

And yet you endorse him for VP?
This makes sense...uh...how?; April 20, 2008 3:33 PM
countjellybean said...: Leah has a good point. Campaigns like to report the median average as their "average". This is not a new thing and it could very well explain the seeming discrepancy.; April 20, 2008 3:33 PM
jpsedona said...: Jim,

The difference between the Obama campaign numbers may be "average donation" vs. "average donor gave". Worth checking into what the real number(s) / story is.; April 20, 2008 3:36 PM
dwit said...: Why do Republitards keep expecting Dems to be somewhere just to the left of Hitler? Haven't we had enough of Baghdad Johnny and his chickenhawk cronies?

I'm an American from a small town in a small state and I don't think Democraps are progressive enough.

That is exactly why I'm no longer a member of that party.

If you can't join 'em, beat 'em!; April 20, 2008 3:37 PM
Harriold said...: Hillary claims that she "won" the primary in Michigan when only her name was on the ballot. This reminds me of the Stalin-era voting where Stalin won 99% of the vote (because there was no one else on the ballot). I still do not know where the other 1% vote came from!
Does Hillary want to compare herself to Stalin by claiming victory on a ballot where her name was the only name on the ballot?; April 20, 2008 3:43 PM
RobH said...: Yes, Leah and Jim,

I think Aunt Judy answered the question regarding how the individual metrics work out in aggregate.

I've donated four times to BO's campaign, in amounts of $35, $150, $125, $75. I'm counted as one of 1.4Million donors, with and average donation of $96, but total donations of $385.

As we say in math class: Q.E.D.; April 20, 2008 3:44 PM
Anonymous said...: Someone is showing thier ignorance. Thet say Average and that is not median. Are they mis-speaking or unlearned.
Did all the Obama supporters attend the Obama math rally.
At the rally:
Obama "2 plus 2 equal 11"
Obama "on average"
Obama "Ain't that right"
Supporters (in unison) "2 plus 2 equal 11"
Supporters (in unison) "on average"
Obama "now that is Change we can believe in"
Supporters Cheer; April 20, 2008 3:56 PM
jpsedona said...: Jim,

Your post on "Obama Math" was humrous! I liked it.

Of course, Hillary may want to adopt that same math to get to the nomination. We may get some insights come Tuesday?; April 20, 2008 4:00 PM
RobH said...: Jim,

With all due respect, and you know I do:

When the math is proved so easily (my 3:44 post) why do you drop back and resort to picking on the words (median vs. mean. vs. average.)? We either each do, or don't, understand their different mathematical definitions. But that isn't the point here, is it?

The concept is now demonstrated, so now we need to "move the goal posts" to a discussion of what word one chose? This seems like distraction at best. Or worse, at the risk of incurring your wrath, reminds me of a certain candidate who, when the results of agreed metrics don't favor her, decides to dismiss the validity of those metrics in pursuit of others hopefully more favorable.; April 20, 2008 4:41 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Regarding the national ad that Obama ran - he got approval from the DNC beforehand and the DNC said it would not break any rules since it was impossible to run a national ad excluding only one state.

Regarding why Obama left his name on the Florida ballot (although he did not want to) Florida has a rule that the only people that can remove their name are the candidates that completely withdraw from the entire nomination race. So he was ineligible to remove his name - otherwise he would have.

Anyone at this point that thinks that the voting was fair in MI and FL are not going to change their minds. BUT I am sure that the tens of thousands of people that were told BEFORE the primaries took place that the votes would not count so they stayed home and did NOT vote will disagree with you until the end of time since their voices were never heard!; April 20, 2008 4:59 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Yamaka said: Please do the following:
3. Work hard as a Senator; accumulate lots of Washington experience.
5. In your late Fiftees (8-12 years from now), you will be a perfect Nominee Dems for the POTUS.
_________________________

Yamaka:
I don't know what country you live in but this is the United States of America!
***
U.S. Constitution - Article 2 Section 1 states:
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
***

Funny, doesn't say anything about "experience" and he is well over the 35 years age requirement, so Senator Obama is more than qualified to run for President of the United States of America.

Great leaders of our time under the age of 50

John F. Kennedy was inaugurated when he was 43
Robert F. Kennedy was running for president when he was 43
Martin Luther King when he was assassinated was only 39

Senator Obama will be inaugurated January 2009 when he will be 47; April 20, 2008 5:09 PM
Judy Bienvenu said...: Leah,

You're absolutely right about people staying home and not voting once they were told their votes wouldn't count.

I have relatives in FL. Some or Dem's for Obama and some are Repub's who were going to vote for Obama. All of them did not vote since they were told none of the votes were going to be considered. How many other Obama voters didn't go to the polls that day.

FL & MI broke the rules. They were told AHEAD OF TIME not to break the rules or their Del's would not be seated. They made the choice to do it anyhow, so now they must deal with the consequences. The Hillblazers would love to rewrite that rule now, after the fact. They need to buck up and deal with it.; April 20, 2008 5:09 PM
Yamaka said...: "He is a Jewel Thief!! A Pathological Liar and A Master Cameleon."

And yet you endorse him for VP?"--rb

Out of respect for the 14 million voters who have voiced for BHO.

But remember, there are nearly 38 million non-partisan but potentially Left-leaning Americans out there. I am focusing on them. How to reach those people?
________________________________

Jim:

I appreciate you. Keep writing. You make lots of sense to me.

_________________________________

Folks:

For heaven sake, don't underestimate McCain, my wife's favorite National Leader:

She says "he is a War Hero, Man of of Immense Public Service and Experience. People respect him.

He won against all odds - He didn't have the MoneyBags of Mitt!"

Money could sometimes put off many voters.

Message matters most than Money, IOB.

Cheers.; April 20, 2008 5:17 PM
Yamaka said...: "John F. Kennedy was inaugurated when he was 43
Robert F. Kennedy was running for president when he was 43
Martin Luther King when he was assassinated was only 39"

JFK and RFK are popular because of their sacrifice: They were cut down by bullets. Not because of their Service and Policy Success - IMO.

MLK is an Icon of the Stature of Mahatma Gandhi, true leaders of the world.

Of course, all were gunned down. Peace Be With Them.

BHO is NO King nor Gandhi, Sorry.

Yes, BHO's Coronation in the Hyde Park will happen very soon. Or maybe, it is happening as we speak!!!!

Smile and Cheer. :); April 20, 2008 5:28 PM
Anonymous said...: RobH,
OK, I will let the fuzzy math alone for now.
Now on to your statement:

"BUT I am sure that the tens of thousands of people that were told BEFORE the primaries took place that the votes would not count so they stayed home and did NOT vote will disagree with you until the end of time since their voices were never heard!"

Would you have me believe that there were no itemsin the democratic primary that good loyal
Democrats were voting on like

CONSTITUTIONAL REVISION
ARTICLE VII, SECTIONS 3, 4, AND 6
ARTICLE XII, SECTION 27
(Legislative)
Property Tax Exemptions; Limitations on Property Tax Assessments
I doubt any stayed home who owned property.
I checked many local sample ballots and there were many issues
other than this.; April 20, 2008 5:45 PM
Anonymous said...: I wish you Obama supporters would stop using BO for Obama.
Down in Texas, folks use that for Body Odor; April 20, 2008 5:52 PM
Judy Bienvenu said...: My goodness....Obama wins again! And this time, it's in Michigan. That's right, the state that Hillblazers want to count toward pledge delegates. Don't take my word for it, it's the lead story on the front page of this very same website:

http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/04/michigan-update.html

Beautiful. And, as my grandma used to say, "Cheaters Proof! Cheaters Proof!"; April 20, 2008 6:16 PM
Yamaka said...: "Down in Texas, folks use that for Body Odor"--Jim

Amen Well Said. I am here in Houston!

Is BHO having lots of BO?

Hilarious.

:) :); April 20, 2008 6:18 PM
Yamaka said...: BHO has already clinched 2208, Oh my God,,,, God,,,,,!! 2208, 2208

Open the Champaign!!; April 20, 2008 6:20 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Jim-
There are a lot of people that DON'T own property. For example: college students, renters, poor people, people over the age of 18 living with parents or relatives, etc.

Yamaka - the number needed currently IS 2024. Just by saying the other number over and over does not make it a fact.; April 20, 2008 6:31 PM
Anonymous said...: Judy, Judy,Judy
I thought Michigan couldn't count; April 20, 2008 6:56 PM
countjellybean said...: Jim posted:

Someone is showing thier ignorance. Thet say Average and that is not median. Are they mis-speaking or unlearned.

The word "average" can apply to mean average, median average, or mode average. Although mean average is the most common usage, that is by no means automatic.

With respect to campaign donations, the median average is usually less than the mean average, since a few high-end donors can skew the mean average upwards without affecting the median. In this manner the campaign can demonstrate that most of the their contributions are from the "little people". Home prices are also usually quoted using the median for the same reason.

And, as I said before, this is not a new practice.; April 20, 2008 7:00 PM
Anonymous said...: IMO,
A lot of Pro Obama supporters posting here are Move on radicals.
Note, I didn't say ALL; April 20, 2008 7:01 PM
RobH said...: Jim, my friend,

Thanks for letting the 'fuzzy' math go - it is no longer fuzzy.

Now, about the "on to your statement" regarding the thousands whose votes were not heard:

I regret to inform that was not my statement, but rather Leah, from 4:59. Wouldn't want you to think ill of me. I'm dead f***in' serious, between shoe stores and tied goats and pokin' sticks and resultant wiggling, I am almost - what - enthralled?; April 20, 2008 7:07 PM
RobH said...: Fellow Democrats (as Ijeomi would say):

Welcome to an exciting upcoming week. All reasonable rolling polls have HRC up by 5 in PA. Pundits say Obama gets plus 4pts for organization, plus 5 pts for new registrants/cell phone users unpolled. HRC gets undecideds plus 4 pts (7-3) and PA ends up a DEAD HEAT!!!

Well in pop vote anyway. (Obama nets additional delegates.)

Does it get any better than this?

Well, yeah, actually.....; April 20, 2008 7:12 PM
RobH said...: Ijeomi,

From your 5:17 post:

"How to reach those people?"

Well, actually, you can't. NOt taking the path you're taking.

Cheers :):); April 20, 2008 7:18 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Jim said...
IMO,
A lot of Pro Obama supporters posting here are Move on radicals.
Note, I didn't say ALL
____________

Jim- the key word there is "IMO" - because your statement is not based on fact (that you for saying that) - I have never been to the MoveOn website and I have never been affiliated with them. And unless someone were to take a poll of the people here on the blog then we will never know about everyone else :)

p.s. Also I am not a radical. I am an average 48 year old white woman that has never been interested in any candidate until this election :); April 20, 2008 7:32 PM
Anonymous said...: countjellybean ,
Average from contributor means exactly what it says.
You kinda sound like Bill Clinton now. "It depends on what the meaning of is is"; April 20, 2008 7:42 PM
Anonymous said...: RobH,
Thought we gonna let the discussion on Math go?
Then you throw in 'it is no longer fuzzy."
Tisk,tisk
I formally apologise for incorrectly attributing a quote to you
Nite all; April 20, 2008 7:54 PM
RobH said...: Jim, Jim ,Jim,

I thought you were going to let this go. Who cares on the semantics? We got the math solved, right?

Can't believe you, as an HRC supporter of all people, whould throw that most impugned statement of Bill's, as he essentially trashed Hillary's dignity, out there as a, I don't know, as a defense?!?!?; April 20, 2008 7:58 PM
RobH said...: Jim, my inclusion of "it's no longer fuzzy" wasn't meant as a knock- it was meant as "thank god, we're all on the same page."

And, of course, some supporters of Obama use BO as an abbreviation, becuase to use BHO, reminds too many of the H in BHO. I use HRC all the time, 'cause I'm proud of her R included, honestly wich she had stuck to that.; April 20, 2008 8:05 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Yamakamikaze,

Why did I call you that? Because the Kamikaze pilots of WW II were so absolutely fanatical in their faith that they were willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING for that faith.

Reason didn't sway them at all. Facts didn't sway them at all. They used faith to guide them, not intellect.

And what did it get them? Their life ended without causing any change in the course of the war. Except it caused the Americans fighting in the South Pacific (such as my father) to be even more dedicated to winning.

So keep pushing forward your Kamikaze-like arguments. All you are doing is buttressing the spirit and will of the American people who support Barak Obama.

Mike; April 20, 2008 8:11 PM
Yamaka said...: IMO:

The legitimate number is 2208.

The other one is Illegitimate.

Of course, you may worship the Illegitimate God!!! I will NOT:) :)

We have choices: I can go and attend the TUCC or go somewhere else.

I prefer the more legitimate Church, not TUCC! NOT 2024.

2208 2208, yes 2208!!!!!

__________________________________

What happened to our hilarious

HD/HC Imiti? I am missing you....

:) Smile and Cheer. :); April 20, 2008 8:14 PM
Yamaka said...: To BO users:

You are deceptively pathetic not to use the legal name in the first place.

Barack Hussein Obama Jr is the legal name - BHO is the correct abbreviation!

Of course if you want to call your Messiah as Body Odor, it is your decision. Not mine.

I prefer BHO - the right one! As is HRC.

2208 is the Magic Number for me!!

:) Smile and Cheer :); April 20, 2008 8:25 PM
Yamaka said...: Peace Be With You - micky!

2208 2208 2208 :) :) :)

Stay tuned. I am listening to HRC in CNN: She is talking about Religion!

Smile and Cheer.; April 20, 2008 8:28 PM
Judy Bienvenu said...: Yamakarl:

Your gal was born Hillary Diane Rodham. You're forgetting the "D" in your initials.

Besides, if I'm not mistaken, the correct way to address either HRC or BO would actually be Senator Obama and Senator Clinton.

This blog has reduced itself to arguing over the initials of the candidates. How in the world will the Democratic party heal itself between the primary and the general. It's a damn shame.; April 20, 2008 8:33 PM
countjellybean said...: Jim wrote,

Average from contributor means exactly what it says.
You kinda sound like Bill Clinton now. "It depends on what the meaning of is is"

Here is the difference between mean, median, and mode.

Suppose there are 10 donors, who give: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, and 12.

The median average is 2.
The mode average is 1.
The mean average is 3.

I repeat (again) that it is standard practice in campaigns to report the median average.; April 20, 2008 8:38 PM
Yamaka said...: aj:

For more than 200 hundred years the Election Season has been very partisan and passionate. Read your History of America.

2008 is no different.

Take a deep breath and exhale!!

The Democratic Party Officials created the mess in the first place.

Bring back GEM; simplify the Process. Get rid of Caucuses, which take too long time to settle.
It is fraught with fraud and mismanagement.

"Obamination" took place in many Caucuses, at least in TX Caucus!!

BTW, Does "Hussein" bother you ALL psychologically? It is perfect with me.

I see some shiver in some quarters!

We are talking about not the birth name; but the current legal name!!

Please pay attention to legality!

:) :) Smile and Cheer. :); April 20, 2008 8:49 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: I just wonder if Senator Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton will be filing for a divorce from Bill after she drops out of the race since he helped her to lose the nomination...

I don't think she will keep Ex-President Bill Clinton around for another eight years since she'd be 68+ years old when Senator Obama will be leaving the oval office.; April 20, 2008 9:10 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: ooops... I meant to say 'when President Obama' will be leaving the oval office in my post above :); April 20, 2008 9:11 PM
Judy Bienvenu said...: Yamaka - keep twisting the knife, just like Senator Clinton. Dig, dig, dig.

You say you're trying to catch the ear of undecided voters to sway them in your direction. That's fine and dandy. But at the same time, you obviously want to catch the ear of the Senator Obama supporters and you're making 'us' less likely to want to ever support Senator Clinton--if she's able to steel the nom.

What I'd like to see from you is your proposal for reuniting the democratic party by the time GE gets here. Are we supposed to reunite just because? Frankly, if the GE was tomorrow, I'd prefer to vote first for Senator Obama, 2nd for nobody, 3rd for McCain, 4th for myself & 5th for Senator Clinton.; April 20, 2008 9:23 PM
Judy Bienvenu said...: Leah,

You're obviously a wise woman with valuable knowledge and experience. Probably easy on the eyes as well. I appreciate your input on this blog. Yours is a voice of reason.

Sincerely,
Aunt Judy; April 20, 2008 9:27 PM
Yamaka said...: Fellow Democrats:

The Party Rules have mandated a prolonged fight till one candidate reaches the legitimate 2208 number of delegates.

It is our Destiny to go on fighting for each and every vote. Yes, every vote needs to be counted, period.

Already, a defection rate of 20% is baked in the cake if one gets the Nomination: This means 20% of Obamamaniacs will not vote for HRC if she gets the 2208. And vice versa.

This means already Cindy and John McCain are walking towards the White House!

That's why Maestro Bill Clinton suggested a Dream Ticket with Hillary at the TOP and BHO as VP about a month ago.

The Man knows the math so well, for he is the Maestro.

As a FOB, I agree that's the only salvation for the Democratic Party.

My wife says, McCain will NOT be as bad as Dubya or as a bleeding FAR LEFT Liberal!

She may have a point.

Some Obamamaniacs already believe that HE is the President.

Delusion has no room in reality.

Seriously, Where will the 38 million non-partisan Left-leaning Americans go in the GE?

Towards Hillary or McCain? That's the question I am trying to answer!
I wish they go to the Big Girl, the Rocky!!

:) :); April 20, 2008 10:03 PM
Aunt Jean said...: excuse me typo I meant manners; April 20, 2008 10:37 PM
Hillary Clinton said...: One of the great things about America is freedom of speech, which is what Aunt Jean is exercising in her/its previoius post. Frankly, I'd rather lose then get support from dumb shits like that. Please move to Canada you freak.

Sincerely,
Senator Clinton; April 20, 2008 10:42 PM
Unknown said...: There's been a lot written about the MI and FL delegate controversy, but shouldn't we also think longer term and consider a plan like "The Fair Primary Proposal" (at www.ellipticalresearch.com/fairprimaryproposal.html) which, if implemented, would have avoided all these problems in the first place?

Political gossip is great, but I think reforming a game theoretically unstable system is worth some serious thought. What happens tomorrow means more than what happened yesterday.; April 20, 2008 10:50 PM
Judy Bienvenu said...: Argo,

Interesting website. Pesonally, I agree the process is in need off repair. But I don't necessarily agree with that particular method of repair. I'd like to see every state vote on the same day, being sure to allow enough time for a run-off. I have lots of ideas for other changes too.

By the way, please don't confuse Aunt Judy with Aunt Jean. I can assure you the two of us are not related. A real piece of work! I think she's a Hillary supporter but I'm not sure...it's kind of hard to tell.; April 20, 2008 11:06 PM
Aunt Jean said...: to all you obama cult lovers you are just angry that Hillary won both Florida and Michigan.By the way there were other names on Michigan ballot just not obama and Edwards. Get a life because obama doesn't have what it takes to be president and he sure as hell will not be there not only for 8 years because he will not be there for 4. If you think he will you are even bigger morons.Also don't worry aunt judy no one could mix us up I'm a hell of a lot smarter. .Jean; April 20, 2008 11:55 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Aunt Jean-

Please stop saying that HRC won MI and FL - the elections were not valid according to DNC rules and OBAMA was NOT on the ballot in Michigan as you stated.

Also, I believe in freedom of speech but I also like the way this blog was before YOU started using profanity. I would like to ask you to please refrain from using offensive words on the thread and please stop calling people names - thank you.; April 21, 2008 12:06 AM
Yamaka said...: "Please stop saying that HRC won MI and FL - the elections were not valid according to DNC rules and OBAMA was NOT on the ballot in Michigan as you stated."

The Rules will be tested by the Credential Committee. But as per State Law people have gone to the polls and voted. No one on this Earth can disenfranchise the voters.

BHO removed his name as a tactics to pander to other early States, within his right. He did NOT want MI, period.

We will meet in Denver about the audacity of disenfranchising the voters. On this issue, if DNC prevails on discarding votes, then we along with people of MI and FL will destroy the Convention using massive Civil Disobedience Tactics of Mahatma Gandhi.

Votes are holy, in our view of the world. Discarding them is tantamount to sacrilege, we believe.

In Full Real Democracy, ALL votes MUST be counted, their delegates must be seated. There is no two ways about it, period.

Get Ready For War in Denver.

Cheers.; April 21, 2008 12:19 AM
Aunt Jean said...: there I go again getting in a hurry before I live this obama site mostly I meant speech. Jean; April 21, 2008 12:27 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Yamaka-

I do believe that in this case DNC rules trump State Laws.

In a nomination race the 'party' sets the rules.

State laws will apply in the general election - because that election's results will be actually 'seating' someone.
But the democratic party nomination is not a decisive election to 'seat' an official. Bottom line the DNC sets the rules for their own party and if you break the rules you can be sanctioned.; April 21, 2008 12:31 AM
Yamaka said...: We will test your logic at Denver.

Did you listen to Howard Dean lately? He wants to seat the delegates from MI and FL. Because the Rule was NOT implemented right. The fault lies with the Party Officials, not with peoples of MI and FL.

We want full justice on this issue; peoples choice must be fully reflected on seating the delegates.

Get Ready for War in Denver.

The Democratic Party will cease to be a National Party when its Rules discard votes. As I said votes are holier than Pope!

American People will be the Jury: they will punish the Party by defeating it at the polls.

We will drive you to the gates of Hell on this matter.

:); April 21, 2008 12:42 AM
Aunt Jean said...: If Dean said that for once he did something right!!! The votes in Florida and michigan with Hillary getting most of the delegates YEA YEA!!!! Jean; April 21, 2008 12:46 AM
Aunt Jean said...: If Dean said that for once he did something right!!! The votes in Florida and michigan with Hillary getting most of the delegates YEA YEA!!!! Jean; April 21, 2008 12:47 AM
whim said...: Wow, all this nit-picking about the meaning of the word average. Just to throw in another monkey wrench, note that saying "the average contribution is $96" is not the same as saying "the average of all the contributions is $96". In the former, "average" means something like "typical", and the "typical" contribution would be more like the mean.

And, as others have pointed out, I have made several contributions. My average contribution is around $50, which is less than my total contribution.; April 21, 2008 12:50 AM
Yamaka said...: There are logical Rules and there are bad Rules. We discard dozens of bad Rules everyday because they don't make sense in today's world. We make new meaningful Rules.

Creative Destruction is going on all the time! Destroy the old moribund Rules, if you want to progress ahead.

What was the logic of allowing 4 States go first than other States? Why only 4 States in January, why not more?

Women and Blacks got voting rights after enormous struggle.

Disenfranchising 3 million votes because of a bad Rule, that too very poorly implemented Rule, is the height of ignorance and arrogance. People are watching!

BTW, I will say this even if HRC has lost these two States. For me the basic principle is at odds with common sense.

And, this is nothing to do with candidates and their pledges. Every thing to do with the voting rights of people and their cast votes.

:); April 21, 2008 12:59 AM
Yamaka said...: On this average, mean, mode contribution issue I didn't participate because I strongly feel that BHO is hiding things, not telling the truth.

He is being bankrolled by his BigMoneyBag Sponsors, and are laundering the books.

How could you believe this Manchurian Candidate on good accountability when everything is cooked up?

During TX Caucus, BHO sent paid anarchist in 3-piece suit to go and steal the "Exhibit Sheets" of HRC, (which did happen in our Precinct.) We found out and caught him red-handed!

Caucuses are long time consuming process; many women and older voters did not participate. That was the reason in TX she won the Primary, and the Caucus result is not certain, even today!

Get rid of all Caucuses. They are big frauds, IMO.

:); April 21, 2008 1:15 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Yamaka and Aunt Jean,

You are saying that other states besides Michigan and Florida moved their voting dates up.

Yes they did. Those states were Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina.

But, if you look, the party rules authorized those states to hold their primaries prior to the first Tuesday after the first Monday in February.

THE PARTY RULES AUTHORIZED THOSE STATES TO HOLD THEIR PRIMARIES PRIOR TO THE OTHER STATES.

When Michigan and Florida changed their dates, it caused a series of meetings at the DNC during the summer of 2007.

The states were allowed to present evidence that they didn't violate the party rules. They didn't because they couldn't.

The states were allowed to present alternate plans for holding the "First Determining Step" of the delegate selection process. The alternate plans could have included holding a non-binding primary per the state law, but holding caucuses or some other process after the first Tuesday after the first Monday in February. The states refused to discuss that.

The states were allowed to present evidence that they did every reasonable action to prevent the state law from violating the party rules (remember, the rules were enacted, THEN the state laws were enacted). Since the Democratic majority legislature passed, and a Democratic Governor signed the law, in Michigan, it was difficult for Michigan to say the Democratic state officials fought with all their might against the law. Since only one (of 14) Democratic Florida state Senator voted against the law in the Florida state Senate, and NO Florida state Representative (of 43) voted against the law in the Florida House, it was difficult for Florida to say that Democratic state officials fought with all their might against the law.

Now go and study the history of how this situation came about, including how the party tried to keep the situation from spiraling out of control during the summer of 2007, and after doing that, say with a straight face that Michigan and Florida were unfairly penalized. You can't do it with a straight face if you study the facts and history of the situation. And if you do, you are drinking or smoking or eating some very powerful stuff that is probably illegal.

Mike; April 21, 2008 1:24 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Mike dean sure was bitching about the other states moving their dates and he said no more. Yes Florida and Michigan should be counted. The problem you obama white hating bigot cult followers have with it is HRC won both states. Well get over it. Oh by the way I don't do illegal drugs and there is nothing wrong with my mind but it is with yours because you followers of obama cul. GO HILLARY ALL THE WAY TO THE WHITE HOUSE !!! Jeant; April 21, 2008 2:49 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Aunt Jean wrote:
". . . [D]ean sure was xxxxxxxx about the other states moving their dates and he said no more."

When and where? Citation from a credible source please. Actually several citations are needed. You need to show where he declaimed the movement of the primaries of the other states, then to show how he changed his statements.

Aunt Jean wrote:
". . . you [O]bama white hating bigot cult followers . . ."

Sorry that you think that way, but just to put your mind at ease, I am a middle-aged, WHITE male who supported Senator John Edwards until he suspended his campaign. I would be very happy to support him again if circumstances would permit it.

And since I'm an atheist, I don't think you could correctly call me a 'cult-follower' (cult defined as: a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies).

By the way, it is the 'throw the kitchen sink,' vitriolic, and non-logical ramblings of Senator Clinton's backers that is driving many people away from her campaign. If you and yamaka think that you are influencing people to support her, you really don't have a balanced sense of how to influence people to change their opinion.

Your lack of civility towards fellow Democrats, as shown by the lack of capitalization of Governor Dean's name, the lack of capitalization of Senator Obama's name, the lack of generally used titles of respect of them, and the use of profanity also leads me to believe that you are not now, and never have been, a Democrat.

Now go do your homework on how the Michigan and Florida situations evolved. I think you'll find a few surprising things about how the Democratic Party leaders in those two states acted and reacted, and why the penalties were needed and put in place.

Mike; April 21, 2008 5:01 AM
Unknown said...: It is official - HRC is broke- $2M in the read for the primaries- and that does not include the loan to herself...at this point I think she is pulling a huge con on the American public- remain viable so she can raise money and pay down her debt, then take her run at 2012- it may be the case that this period between the last primary and the convention may be a time to basically extort donors to give her money in exchange for giving up the race....; April 21, 2008 5:07 AM
dwit said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; April 21, 2008 5:14 AM
ed iglehart said...: Auntie Jean (03:55 (GMT+1)),

Peaking of manners.....; April 21, 2008 7:05 AM
dwit said...: Just woke from a weird dream about "College Bowl". Okay, so I'm a total nerd, but does anyone remember that on TV?

I remember watching it as a kid, but I can't exactly remember how I was turned onto it or how I found it remotely entertaining as a preteen?

Well, the dream started out as college bowl involving Hillary and Barack, but then morphed into an old fashioned debate. The thing that struck me was how intelligent and relevant the questions were to our current situation (I'm sure I heard them somewhere else before).

Both candidates performed remarkably and it was in the middle of a Hillary response on global trade that I woke up.

That was my epiphany on this thing. We have two incredible nerds to choose from. I am simply amazed at what two terrific candidates we have! Bill, in spite of his poor personal judgment, certainly represented that milieu.

I will vote for either over McCain in a general simply because they will have REAL answers to the very REAL problems facing our country today.

Its sad things have gotten so ugly between the two as a result of republitard style tactics and dumb media. The same dumb media that is responsible for shelving the broadcast of College and High School Bowl!; April 21, 2008 7:08 AM
dwit said...: Please Pennsylvania! Put this thing behind us on Tuesday.; April 21, 2008 7:30 AM
ed iglehart said...: Dwit and all,

Thoughts on
Pennsylvania demographics.

A fine place full of fine folk.

Responses welcome.
xx
ed; April 21, 2008 7:36 AM
dwit said...: Ed,

All I can say is I think Pennsylvanians are very salt of the earth folk and can spot a charlatan when they see one. Believability will play very big in their minds when it comes to how they vote.

I think most Americans are very weary of this nomination process. Wouldn't surprise me if Pennsylvania stuns the media and pollsters.

I changed my position on the way to my polling location. It all came down to believability for me.; April 21, 2008 7:49 AM
ed iglehart said...: Jp,

A link to the
HRC campaign's financial woes.

Does anyone know what the legal and/or ethical ramifications are for a campaign which ends up owing millions? Is it legal or ethical to continue to solicit contributions for an officially lost cause?

Which debtors would take precedence in a bankruptcy process? HRC's own loan to herself or those who have provided services and not been paid?

Just wondering
ed; April 21, 2008 7:58 AM
dwit said...: Hillary has been invited to the Larry King show tonight. I'll be curious to see if Larry puts any tough questions to her. If it turns out to be an hour long lovefest we'll certainly know where CNN stands on this thing.; April 21, 2008 8:06 AM
dwit said...: Is anyone familiar with Gold Service International?

Its a big Hillary donor, but they are from Bogota, Columbia and I can't read Spanish. Anyone help?

http://www.goldservice.com.co/; April 21, 2008 8:29 AM
Judy Bienvenu said...: Dwit,

Interesting website - even if it is in Spanish. One thing that jumped out at me right away was a reference about their top dog who's pictured there: Larry Summers.

Perhaps his name sounds familiar as he was in the Clinton Administration. Here's a link for his bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers

Hmm? Bogata company with Larry Summers making contributions to Senator Clinton's campaign....; April 21, 2008 8:58 AM
dwit said...: Aunt J,

That is very interesting indeed! Can't believe I missed that. I will have to look into this today.; April 21, 2008 9:23 AM
Oreo said...: We've started a new Open Thread. You can access it by clicking here or by clicking on Open Thread in the top left of the blog; April 21, 2008 9:32 AM
Judy Bienvenu said...: A new open thread!! Yippee!

See y'all on the other side!; April 21, 2008 9:35 AM
ed iglehart said...: The Colombian foundation seems to be dedicated to promoting literacy and prosperity in Colombia.

Is it a proper use of its resources to contribute to campaigns in the USA? Is it legal for "foreign" trusts or institutions to do so?

See y'all on t'other side!
xx
ed; April 21, 2008 9:48 AM
dwit said...: Is anyone familiar with Gold Service International?

Its a big Hillary donor, but they are from Bogota, Columbia and I can't read Spanish. Anyone help?

http://www.goldservice.com.co/

aunt Judy said…

"Dwit,

Interesting website - even if it is in Spanish. One thing that jumped out at me right away was a reference about their top dog who's pictured there: Larry Summers.

Perhaps his name sounds familiar as he was in the Clinton Administration. Here's a link for his bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers

Hmm? Bogata company with Larry Summers making contributions to Senator Clinton's campaign...."

I'd sure hate to have this info pop up in a General; April 21, 2008 4:11 PM
Anonymous said...: McGovern could have been a great President but he became extreme left wing candidate.

Obama is another Mcgovern.

Replace “McGovern” with “MoveOn.org” and you’ve seized the essence of the Obama candidacy. He’s the most liberal U.S. senator, advocating tax increases on the “wealthy” and enjoying the support of Gov. Deval Patrick, Sen. Ted Kennedy, Kerry , and every 9/11 conspiracy kook.
While Hillary Clinton soundly beats McCain in Massachusetts in the new SurveyUSA poll, 56 percent to 41 percent, the Obama/McCain number is 48 percent to 46 percent, well within the margin of error.
Wake up America . You elected Duval Patrick , a role model for Obama . What did you get by electing somebody who promised change . What did we get.—the most mismanaged state in the nation.“We’ve already elected one inexperienced candidate running on a vague platform of hope in Massachusetts, and it’s not working out. This is a classic example of ‘Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.’

I, as a typical American want to know if Obama, a liberal community activist with little political or executive experience, is tough enough to face our enemies in a troubled world. The answer is a resounding NO NO NO! At least McGovern won Mass. Obama will lose even that state !!!

Democrats want a victory this year . With Obama we will get only defeat.; April 22, 2008 3:48 PM
Jazzeymom08 said...: I really hope someone of consequence can do something about this issue. I can't, I'm a small town, college educated, stay-at-home mom, and I really feel like I have no voice, so here I am, with something important to say. If Clinton loses the Democratic Party nomination, we might as well give the White House keys to John McCain and tell him to move on in! I know that there are thousands of Hillary supporters that WILL NOT CROSS OVER TO OBAMA if he becomes the nominee. It's not a race issue, it's a trust issue. He has too many secrets, too many ties to disreputable "white" haters, and no experience. He speaks well, he's very convincing and very charismatic, but what do we REALLY know about him. I have heard many Democrats say that if he were white, he would not be where he is today. Maybe, maybe not...but I'm afraid that this will destroy our political party. There are thousands of Democrats who openly discuss and plan on voting for John McCain if Hillary is not the nominee. This is horrifying!! Democrats will be putting yet another George Bush into office. Please give this some thought, the threat is out there and we NEED a Democrat elected in Nov. Obama and Clinton both believe that the party will come together when the nominee is decided. This is foolishness and folly, they may assume this, but it is not going to happen the way they like to paint this sunshiney picture. It will not happen and we will see John McCain put into office by Democrats who do not trust Obama.; April 23, 2008 12:37 AM
dwit said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; April 25, 2008 3:19 AM
dwit said...: Jazzey

Likewise for Obama supporters. You can kiss them goodbye for many generations. to rebuff them could destroy the party along the lines of the Whig dissolution of the 19th century.

I am very familiar with the racially intolerant variety of blue collar liberal of whom you speak. I grew up in a working class neighborhood full of them.

But, I think you are not taking into account the millions of African American voters as well as other people of color who have newly joined the process out of enthusiasm for Mr. Obama.

Also, don't forget the youth who have jumped in. Add a few old schoolers and some fiscally conservative independents like myself and you have the White House delivered to the dems.

Obama's rise has given me new faith that this country is indeed ready. Have faith!; April 25, 2008 3:44 AM
vwis said...: Yama,
I like that your from TX, not much else. You must appreciate GWB it means you get another library and federal funding for a tollway.
__________

All,
I was reading the blogs this morning and for some reason all the blogs from April 23-24th do not appear. Does anyone understand this.; April 25, 2008 10:06 AM
vwis said...: Dwit,
You understand the just of it. The odds were stacked in HRCs favor upfront in this primary, based on past performances. Now she is grasping at straws. Did you hear on MSNBC Keith O and Chris M mentioned that Evan Bayh and other surrogates of HRC are appealing to the SDs not to endorse until June 3. HRC has her minions doing the dirty work so that she can say she didn't authorize that. I don't know if that works in Washington, but I know it would rub me wrong and I would see definite defeat in her. I would not walk over to the other candidate, but run. If I were Bayh and the others supporters I would switch before he is made the scapegoat.; April 25, 2008 10:24 AM
vwis said...: Jazzey,
Don't trust any politician its not their game. It not about whom the best candidate is it is about which candidate plays the best game at that time.; April 25, 2008 11:24 AM
vwis said...: ed inglehart,
I enjoyed your work. Also, many of the links. You inspire me to think of the old Jewish proverb: Every man should raise a child, write a book, and plant a tree. The prescription for a good life, your life has been well spent.
I'm surprised that you don't support Ralph Nader, however, it is better to have influence in a party that has a chance of being in power.
Thanks; April 25, 2008 11:44 AM
Anonymous said...: hey pelosi,

keep pressuring superdelegates to nominate the unelectable Obama, I am a Registered democrat and i am mad as hell, i am going to encourage everyone i know to launch campaigns against anyone who endorses Obama, you think the republicans are bad, JUST WAIT BECAUSE DEMOCRATS WILL BE JOINING THEM IN AWESOME NUMBERS THE MINUTE YOU ANNOUNCE AN OBAMA NOMINATION, END THIS PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION AND RESPECT THE VOTES OF ALL THE PEOPLE FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN INCLUDED, OTHERWISE FACE THE POSSIBILITY OF AN ENORMOUS DEFECTION FROM THE PARTY, MYSELF BEING ONE, FIGHTING DEMOCRATS, JOINING WITH THE CAUSE OF REPUBLICANS, OBAMA IS NOT A TRUSTWORTHY OR HONORABLE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE PEOPLE!

IF YOU ENDORSE OBAMA BEWARE THERE ARE ALL EYES ON YOU, IF YOU STUMBLE IN THE LEAST EXPECT TO LOSE YOUR NEXT RE-ELECTION CAMPAIGN!

AFFECTIONATLY YOURS, MAD AS HELL, AND NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!; April 25, 2008 6:03 PM
Mike Ruth said...: In response to Jim "isn't the point to win back the whitehouse" I say that's only part of the point.

The main point is use the Whitehouse (the President) to persuade the Congress to pass the legislation that is needed to change the direction of the USA back to something we can be proud of. This will require more than merely getting into the whitehouse. Vast right wing forces will deploy to kill any real change that the new president offers. The new president will need a lot of credibility, persuasion, and powerful allies in the Congress.

So, a red-necked dogcatcher picked in the backroom at the Dem Convention (Jim's analogy) really won't work out very well if that hypothetical president can't get the Congress to move. I think one huge disaster looms for the Democrats if a new president gets into the whitehouse and then fails to deliver on the hopes of the electorate.; May 01, 2008 3:57 PM
Anonymous said...: Pre Primary (Indiana North Carolina) Preview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDLlfxHiNX8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja_CdV6VRrY; May 06, 2008 2:15 AM

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