Democratic Convention Watch: Open Thread

Tuesday, April 01, 2008

Open Thread

WE'VE MOVED! Democratic Convention Watch is now at http://www.DemocraticConventionWatch.com

Who's going to win, who has a better chance against McCain, or whatever else is on your mind.

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Leah Texas4Obama said...: Here's OBAMA's page regarding ENERGY that might interest ya'll:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/energy/

I haven't read anything about McCain's thoughts regarding energy, but I am sure we will hear a lot about it in the upcoming debates.; May 18, 2008 2:24 AM
Hippolytus said...: Time for SNL for those of us on the West coast. Good night, everyone.; May 18, 2008 2:25 AM
Hippolytus said...: Just found out McSame is on SNL tonight.
Bye.; May 18, 2008 2:30 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: *ARTICLE*

Florida, Michigan Cannot Save Clinton

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/17/florida-michigan-cannot-save-clinton/#more-7176

.; May 18, 2008 2:32 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Oh my gosh!

Jon Stewart used the story about the boy in Kentucky that sold his bike and gave the money to Hillary!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bUqrCgMMacs

And the part about VW is hilarious.; May 18, 2008 3:01 AM
Hippolytus said...: Thought you'd like that, Leah!; May 18, 2008 3:03 AM
Hippolytus said...: Wow, just saw McCain on SNL. I can understand why he'd want to get out in front of the age issue early on, but I'm not sure he did himself any favors. What do you folks, think?; May 18, 2008 3:13 AM
Amot said...: Richard,
I second you on fusion!

prot*,
Thank you for the fusion info. It really provokes some thinking...

BillyJ,
thanks for keeping focus on serious issues!

Leah, and all you folks,
stay on the topics, don't allow trolls like Economy and magia to spoil the thread, just ignore them!; May 18, 2008 3:14 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Hippolytus-

I DVR'd SNL and will watch it tomorrow but I read an article on www.yahoo.com about what he said.
Also the clip with the split face of Obama/Clinton is already on YouTube:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=a0aarMzFLjw

.; May 18, 2008 3:19 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Here's some of the John McCain jokes on SNL for those of ya'll that missed it:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080518/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_snl_2

I'm off to bed - goodnight everyone :)

.; May 18, 2008 3:26 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Hippolytus said...
Pound down another boilermaker

Hippolytus,

Please, PLEASE don't tell me you have a Pur-who? connection!

I'm a true Cream and Crimson Hoosier fan. If you are connected to Pur-who? in any way, I'm not speaking to you anymore!!

VBG

Mike; May 18, 2008 3:38 AM
Hippolytus said...: MikeinMD
Not to fear...We can still be friends. I even have a sister-in-law who is an Indiana alum.
~ Hippolytus; May 18, 2008 3:59 AM
Hippolytus said...: MikeinMd,
By way of full disclosure, though, Bill Clinton is my fraternity brother(Mu Alpha chapter of Alpha Phi Omega, the national service fraternity). He predates me at Georgetown, though. I do clearly recall when another brother told me back in 1973-74 about Bill, and predicted that he'd be a POTUS. How's that for a crystal ball!; May 18, 2008 4:07 AM
protactinium said...: Here are some links to the Plastic Solar Panels I was refering to early. This is really what our goverment needs to try and kick into mass producation ASAP.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070719011151.htm

http://www.konarka.com/news_and_events/press_releases/2008/3_march/0304_ink.php

conducted the first-ever demonstration of manufacturing solar cells by highly efficient inkjet printing. The company discusses and analyzes the performance of highly efficient inkjet printed organic bulk heterojunction solar cells

http://www.physorg.com/news96200990.html

percent was the highest efficiency ever achieved for plastic solar cells until 2005 when David Carroll, director of the Wake Forest nanotechnology center, and his research group announced they had come close to reaching 5 percent efficiency

Now, a little more than a year later, Carroll said his group has surpassed the 6 percent mark.

In order to be considered a viable technology for commercial use, solar cells must be able to convert about 8 percent of the energy in sunlight to electricity. Wake Forest researchers hope to reach 10 percent in the next year, said Carroll, who is also associate professor of physics at Wake Forest.; May 18, 2008 4:30 AM
Anonymous said...: Let Michigan and Florida vote!; May 18, 2008 4:55 AM
Anonymous said...: I hope people wake up before it is too late and realize Obama is not as strong or as qualified for the presedential nominee as Hillary. When it comes to making a real difference the Clintons always come through. If it were not for Bill Clinton Obama would not be in his position nor Condaleeza Rice and other Black Americans as well. He was the first to put Black Americans in high political positions. Who makes the real changes "The Clintons".; May 18, 2008 5:02 AM
Anonymous said...: Obama wouldn't have had a chance if it were not for the media's help.; May 18, 2008 5:04 AM
Anonymous said...: Martin, just because we chose not to vote for Obama doesn't make us racist or ignorant. I think you have made it pretty clear who the racist is. YOU! I think that is a problem with this election. People are afraid to say they are against Obama for fear of looking racist. That is rediculous!; May 18, 2008 5:17 AM
Peter said...: Iowa and New Mexico, two states Bush won narrowly in 04. These are both mentioned as "battleground-states". Rasmussen just released polls in those states, Obama has a lead in New Mexico which is close to double digits (9%). That lead has increased from a tie in february through a 3% lead in april. The 9% could be statistic noice so we should wait to see other polls, but if the lead is this big, it means New Mexico is a likely win. It is 5 EV, so Obama will need more "bush-states", but it is important to win NM.

http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/new_mexico/election_2008_new_mexico_presidential_election; May 18, 2008 5:35 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Interesting article in the May 18 edition of the Washington Post on the first steps of the two camps in putting together teams for a general election campaign. Mostly it's about the fundraisers talking of how to merge the two operations. Article is titled "Rival Camps Plan Inevitable Merger".

Most of Clinton's supporters will not state for the record that her campaign's chance of winning is now extremely improbable, but off the record, many are acknowledging that.

I found this information very interesting:

In addition to the fledgling attempts to merge the fundraising operations of Obama and Clinton, there is growing talk that the best -- and perhaps only -- way to truly mend the rift is for Obama to pick a top Clinton surrogate as his vice presidential nominee.

"There's gale-force pressure for Obama to choose a Clinton loyalist as a running mate to heal the party but avoid putting her and her formidable baggage on the ticket," said one Obama ally in Washington. "You hear the names [Ohio Gov. Ted] Strickland, [Indiana Sen. Evan] Bayh, and [retired general] Wes Clark almost constantly, and it's no secret that Jim Johnson and Tom Daschle are purveyors of that wisdom."

General Clark's support on Intrade will definitely pick up on that info.

Link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/17/AR2008051702425_2.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2008051702392

Mike; May 18, 2008 5:44 AM
Peter said...: RE hot

You are not a racist if you vote for Hillary and you are not a sexist if you vote for Obama. But I think it is fair to say that some vote for Obama because they are sexist, and some vote for Hillary because they are racist. How many is impossible to say, because this is an issue where people might not the truth in polls.

Regarding MI and FL. It is to late to let the people in MI and FL vote again, it takes time and will drag this primary for several more months. Obama has a lead by almost 200 delegates, MI and FL will not change anything for Clinton. The delegates from those states will be seated, but the solution will not come yet. But it is clear that MI and FL will NOT help Clinton.

If you look at MI, that is a state with a demographic close to Illionis and Obama is doing just as well as Clinton against McCain here. I think Obama would have won MI if they voted again. Florida is a state which favours Clinton. But anyway, FL and MI broke the rules and you can`t let anyone get away with breaking the rules or else you would see states moving their primaries back and forward as they like, it would be chaos.

Anyway Obama has won this and he will probably declear himself the nominee on tuesday night.; May 18, 2008 5:45 AM
ed iglehart said...: Richard,

"Our only real hope for long-term sustainability is nuclear fusion. The U.S. needs to invest hundreds of billions of dollars in fusion research rather than spending it on wars to secure our oil supply."

1.) Isn't "long-term sustainability" a tautology?

2.) I agree with not 'investing' in war.

"We have the world's largest reserves of uranium, and could very easily provide all our power needs through nuclear-generated electricity and electrolyzed hydrogen."

3.) I have seen numerous estimates which give the global supplies of recoverable uranium as sufficient for from 25 to 75 years AT PRESENT USAGE LEVELS. Hardly worth the effort of ramping up the capacity to use it, then.

I think we need some Legal advice

Salaam, etc.
ed; May 18, 2008 6:01 AM
ed iglehart said...: Talking Uranium

xx
ed; May 18, 2008 7:19 AM
Amot said...: nleuwsEd,
if nuclear fusion is not an option, what is the short-term (50 years) solution than? I really didn't know there is not a lot of ore available!; May 18, 2008 7:52 AM
ed iglehart said...: Amot,

Nuclear fusion isn't off the agenda, but it's been "about thirty years away" for about fifty years now....

Nuclear fission advocates are fond of the "fast" reactor (used to be "fast breeder", but unfortunate images ...), which they reckon will extend the useful fuels for thousands of years. There is a reference to this in the article I linked.

The waste problem is the biggest hurdle, and is nowhere near a solution. nobody wants the stuff, and the processes needed to extract the plutonium from spent uranium fuels produces the most frightening of all wastes - a solution of "nuclear salad" in concentrated Nitric Acid. This stuff is composed of every imaginable fragment from fission, and is so radioactive that if left without cooling, will boil dry and then reach the melting point of stainless steel, so it's literally "too hot to handle" in both the thermal and radioological viewpoint.

My apologies for acting like an 'expert', which I am not, but since the major UK re-processing establishment is approximately thirty miles upwind of where I sit, I have made some enquiries.

My qualifications for being able to understand the science a little better than an average person are my degree in Chemistry, fortified with considerable Physics, visits to the re-processing plant, and a LOT of reading.

My considered opinion is that we are all going to have to get by using considerably less energy than our addiction would lead us to believe is essential.

In the medium to longer term, there are also going to be rather fewer of us on the planet. By what means the reduction will take place, I am unsure, but I doubt it will be painless.

And just remember, This morning dawned on 213,000 new mouths to feed - a Tsunami's worth every single day!

The important thing to note about an ecosystem's carrying capacity is that exceeding it degrades it, so that, after the overload has (inevitably) collapsed, the system's capacity is significantly reduced.

Example:
The Earth can, perhaps, sustain 2.5 billion humans at a comfortable standard of living, but it is now carrying almost seven billion. This will probably reach nine to ten billion before collapse, but after collapse, the Earth might only be able to support one billion humans (if there are ever that many again).

dark thoughts, I know, but I also studied for an advanced degree in Human Ecology. I learned a lot of stuff I already 'knew', but hadn't really faced.

;-(
ed; May 18, 2008 9:12 AM
Economy said...: protactinium

“He wants to prove he his against Bush in everyway. It will also help insulate him against future attack from Bush by getting people to just disregard them as politics as usual. It also is helping him link Mccain to Bush.”

This looks like the same old politics to me that B. Hypocrite Obama says he is not. How exactly does this bring everyone together? It is divisive.

“Obama can be worse then Bush? Hillary is Bush of forign Policys. Watch her talk about why we should attack Iraq. :-) Preety compeling.”

I recall the hypothetical question in response to a nuclear attack on Israel. Hillary’s response was correct. The nutcracker exists. Go Hillary. It is unknown (blank screen) what Obama would give away to appease these people. Talks lead to negotiations. Negotiations do not come without a price. This is the real difference.; May 18, 2008 9:28 AM
Economy said...: Leah
“No mud? Haven't you been watching the news the past couple of months?”

Rev Wright is just a reflection of Obama’s religion. The media has not provided any new information; I grew tired of the same old grind. What new information has the media revealed regarding Black Liberation Theology? A Google search produces a number of hits on this topic. Oprah left this church a long time ago.
There are a number of other sites that have a number of topics that may have not been investigated or mentioned by the media in their reports. This mud has not been thrown yet, but the Republicans have it. Thus Hillary is the stronger candidate to run against McCain for a GE win.

“Senator Obama has paid his dues as much if not more that Hillary has.”
Obama has mastered the art of giving a speech. Where’s the beef?

“Obama couldn't go 'rough' with Hillary because:”

Hillary could not go ‘rough’ with Obama is the accurate statement. The media shows Obama doing all sorts of nice non-relevant things like playing basketball. Obama wouldn't have had a chance if it were not for the media's help.

“Florida, Michigan Cannot Save Clinton”
An additional adjustment to the caucus bias toward Obama should equalize things. It is not fair for Hillary to get less delegates in states like Texas that she won. A level playing field needs to be established. Hopefully the superdelegates are paying attention.; May 18, 2008 9:30 AM
Amot said...: Ed,
what you actually said is that we have to worry more about food and famine than about energy (though food&energy crisis at the same time is very probable). Hopefully my country does not have to worry about overpopulation or famine...

But I think that is a global decision to be handled by UN or even bigger authority. And we again come to the point that government has to be strong and global! Therefore - no GOP!

I hope that the world crisis we face now will give a chance to the nations to create a stronger global force! EU will be one state in 15-20 years and apply continentwide policies, but if 3rd world countries don't apply population limits on time ... war is inevitable :(((

Never thought before that Obama has the chance to do much more than simply recover America - he can actually save the world...; May 18, 2008 9:35 AM
Economy said...: Wind energy

At 100 meters above the ground to mount the blades and obtain the magic number of at least 7.2 meters per second wind speed for a viable energy return these windmills are huge. Power generated is proportional to wind speed to the third power. Many people like the idea of wind energy but do not want them near where they live. Thus until remote locations can be established for these monsters standing over 400 feet high there will be controversy. Speculators are out trying to lease land and turn a quick buck. Have any of you read one of these proprietary contracts?; May 18, 2008 9:41 AM
Peter said...: An intersting poll from Rasmussen. Obama has 45% and McCain 44% in the latest tracking poll but when they include Bob Barr (Libertarian Party) and Ralph Nader (Green Party) the result is quite different. Obama gets 42%, McCain 38%, Barr 6% and Nader 4%. 11% undecided.

They also found that Barr is quite unknown which means he could "steal" more votes from both Obama and McCain (probably more from McCain).

I think this is quite interesting and the way Barr "attacked" Huckerbee for his Obama "joke" means the Libertarian Party could be quite aggresive against the Republican party and steal som voters there. What Ron Paul does is also an important factor, he has not ruled out supporting Obama. So, I think the best thing for our party is if Paul endorse Obama, that would probably mean Obama could get some more votes from indys and republicans. But Paul endorsing Barr could also be positive for us.
I don`t think Nader would get as much as this poll shows, I think he "overperforms" because of the ongoing primary, when Obama gets the nomination I think Nader will lose support to Obama. But, Barr could play an important role in this election.; May 18, 2008 9:48 AM
magia said...: good morning. just have a few minutes, so here goes:

robh said . . . “My fear is that your introduction of additional sources would not compel agreement, and thus prove ultimately frustrating.”

Could be, although I wonder who would not agree with my posit that he was/is an HONORARY professor. I bet more Obama camp than Clinton camp! ;)

Leah said . . . “Why not try doing a little objective unbiased research on what Senator Obama has done in his lifetime. Then we can talk.”

Well, I think I’ve done that, but I’m sure you’ve done it better than I could -- so how about a little summary? Thanks!

Amot said . . . “Leah, and all you folks,
stay on the topics, don't allow trolls like Economy and magia to spoil the thread, just ignore them!”

Troll? How rude! Perhaps you were insulted that I asked you to vet my numbers?

Funny, you have often been a voice of reasonability on this thread, but every once in a while I think you are two different people. So what have I written that has trolled me up? Does any questioning of, or commenting on, your opinions (facts :) “spoil the thread?” Just want to understand your standards. Thanks!

Peter said . . . “Anyway Obama has won this and he will probably declear himself the nominee on tuesday night.”

It may be that he will, as there is talk of a scheduled speech in Iowa for that purpose, and Olbermann is using it for a hook. But some are saying he is too thoughtful to make that mistake; I guess we’ll know soon enough.

Economy said . . . “Many people like the idea of wind energy but do not want them near where they live.”

True, and appalling. We have Europe and Asia (and especially Bhutan, who have built an economy on their wind) setting an example that the shallow liberals in New England, along the coasts, and in the Mountain West refuse to follow. They LOVE being green, UNLESS it ruins their view! Appalling!

“Obama can save the world!” Enough said.

And to all who are making the contributions of your research and knowledge with regard to energy, thank you. And congratulations on your tenacity!; May 18, 2008 10:01 AM
Peter said...: "It may be that he will, as there is talk of a scheduled speech in Iowa for that purpose, and Olbermann is using it for a hook. But some are saying he is too thoughtful to make that mistake; I guess we’ll know soon enough."

Well, there are 104 delegates at stake on tuesday, if you use the RCP average Obama is ahead with 14% in OR and behind with 29% in KY. If we use a "pro" Clinton count and Obama wins OR with 10% and lose KY with 35% he will still get around 43 delegates. That means he will have won the pledged delegate count with a clear and solid margin. He will also be close to 60 delegates (total) away from reaching 2026. Several major superdelegates have said that they will support the candidate who wins the pledged delegate count. Obama declearing victory on tuesday is reasonable and the sooner people like you realize that this is over, the sooner the party can unite. I don`t expect Clinton to declear defeat yet, but it is just a matter of weeks and I think you know that.; May 18, 2008 10:12 AM
ed iglehart said...: Economy,

"This mud has not been thrown yet, but the Republicans have it. Thus Hillary is the stronger candidate to run against McCain for a GE win."

This is a classroom example of a non-sequitur.

"Have any of you read one of these proprietary contracts?"

Yes, plenty.

"A level playing field needs to be established."
NEXT TIME. The rules are in place for this time.

"I recall the hypothetical question in response to a nuclear attack on Israel. Hillary’s response was correct."

A stupid hypothetical and a stupid answer.

Amot,

"But I think that is a global decision to be handled by UN or even bigger authority. And we again come to the point that government has to be strong and global!"

NO! Local individual and community choices. We do not need centralisation
of any sort. We do need a shared moral sense that the commons are limited, and must be shared responsibly
, but strong centralised systems of control are unique to humans (they do not exist in Nature), and favour corruption, greed, and destruction - look around!

"if 3rd world countries don't apply population limits on time ... war is inevitable :((("

I fear it may be, but "inevitable" has a history:
"Eventually this mechanistic line of thought brings us to the doctrine that whatever happens is inevitable. Actually, this stark determinism is altered in general use to a doctrine that is even more contemptible. Every bad thing that happens is inevitable. For every good thing that happens there are mobs of claimers of credit. Every good and perfect gift comes from politicians, scientists, researchers, governments, and corporations. Evils, however, are inevitable; there is just no use in trying to choose against them. Thus all industrial comforts and labor saving devices are the result only of human ingenuity and determination (not to mention the charity and altruism that have so conspicuously distinguished the industrial subspecies for the past two centuries), but the consequent pollution, land destruction, and social upheaval have been "inevitable."

"Thus President Clinton (for whom I voted) could tell an audience of "farmers and agricultural organization leaders" in Billings, Montana on June 1, 1995, that the American farm population now is "dramatically lower, obviously, than it was a generation ago. And that was inevitable because of the increasing productivity of agriculture."

Who so Hath his minde on taking, hath it no more on what he hath taken.
MONTAIGNE, III. Vl

AND

"But for the time being (may it be short) the corporations thrive, and they are doing so at the expense of everything else. Their dogma of the survival of the wealthiest (i.e. mechanical efficiency) is the dominant intellectual fashion. A Letter to the New York Times, of July 8, 1999 stated it perfectly: "While change is difficult for those affected, the larger, more efficient business organization will eventually emerge and industry consolidation will occur to the benefit of the many." When you read or hear those words "larger" and "more efficient" you may expect soon to encounter the word "inevitable," and this letter writer conformed exactly to the rule: "We should not try to prevent the inevitable consolidation of the farming industry." This way of talking is now commonplace among supposedly intelligent people, and it has only one motive: the avoidance of difficult thought. Or one might as well say that the motive is the avoidance of thought, for that use of the word "inevitable" obviates the need to consider any alternative, and a person confronting only a single possibility is well beyond any need to think. The message is: "The machine is coming. If you are small and in the way, you must lie down and be run over." So high a level of mental activity is readily achieved by terrapins."

(both from my hero and mentor Wendell Berry)

;-(((
ed; May 18, 2008 10:21 AM
ed iglehart said...: Magia, Namaste

I was puzzled by the way some folk seemed to "take against" you. I didn't sense any 'slant' or negative agenda in your posts, just simple inquiry.

Anyway, welcome from me, at least.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
-ed; May 18, 2008 10:31 AM
Yamaka said...: "Obama may get the nomination and be in the general election. This is only because of smoke and mirrors. Obama has the potential to be worse than GW Bush. Hillary is the one who has more than paid her dues."

Econ:

You are on the money. Amen

BARack Hussein BIN Obama is the "Minority" Candidate. If he is the Nominee of the Democratic Party, the Party will be in Minority for another decades.

He is the weakest Candidate, the least vetted, least experienced and the Riskiest.

Monadale, Dukakkis, Kerry were all better than BHO.

What happened to them?

They are the perennial losers of the General Election.

BHO will be the worst of them all.

SDs can change this trend, if they have the guts and courage.

Cheer and vote of Hillary.; May 18, 2008 11:23 AM
Economy said...: ed iglehart
“"Have any of you read one of these proprietary contracts?" Yes, plenty.”

You lack the information. Ignorance is bliss.

"Thus President Clinton (for whom I voted) could tell an audience of "farmers and agricultural organization leaders" in Billings, Montana on June 1, 1995, that the American farm population now is "dramatically lower, obviously, than it was a generation ago. And that was inevitable because of the increasing productivity of agriculture."

Back in around 1930 a family could survive from 80 acres. Today 80 tillable acres may cost about $300K and return about $11K for corn, wheat and soybean crops with someone else providing the equipment and labor to plant and harvest. Thus productivity has increased significantly in that “get big or get out” philosophy exists. Today family partnerships exist with other jobs to provide income. The new farm bill will loan a beginning farmer $300K for land and $300K for equipment so you do the math. Is it urban sprawl or increasing the farming population? The agriculture population has been decreasing over the last century. The old bumper sticker—-never before have so many been fed by so few for so little.; May 18, 2008 11:29 AM
Economy said...: Amot said . . . “Leah, and all you folks,
stay on the topics, don't allow trolls like Economy and magia to spoil the thread, just ignore them!”

An Ostrich feels secure by burying its head in the sand. This will not prevent the inevitable attacks from the Republicans.; May 18, 2008 11:33 AM
ed iglehart said...: Economy

"You lack the information. Ignorance is bliss."

HUH?; May 18, 2008 11:36 AM
Yamaka said...: Fellow Joe P. Goebbels & Co, the BHOs's Lemmings:

1. You are all very pathetic: what happened to Goebbels at the end of the day?

2. You "swift boated" her last Wed by bringing the "$400 Hair Cut". You are planning another one this Wed, when Hillary will have a blowout victory in KY.

3. You talked up the Senior Lecturer to the Professor level by your LIE-Machine.

4. You are pushing the "Minority Candidate" who won really the 45% of the Democratic Voters to be the Nominee, just because of your Lie-Machine.

5. By your loyalty to BARack Hussein Bin Obama, the man of Kenyan Heritage, your are really destroying the Democratic Party.

6. The SDs can change the inevitability of a disaster in the GE:

Mondale, Dukakkis, Kerry and now BHO.

NO...No....BHO cannot win the POTUS.

He is just a Minority Candidate!

Cheer and Smile for Hillary, the best known Candidate in America.

BARack Who? Selbi..Who?
Get a life, morons.

:-); May 18, 2008 11:43 AM
RobH said...: Economy.

With all due respect, your retort to ed at 11:29 reveals that you have utterly, utterly, missed ed's thesis. In fact, you essentially reiforce his arguments.

If you choose, you might go back and read his previous posts, and visit the sources he provides. While many point to his website, the compendium of 'first sources' he uses there to support his positions, is compelling.; May 18, 2008 11:57 AM
countjellybean said...: This was posted on the Uncommitted superdelegate thread:

In Nevada, Dina Titus had to give up her state party seat because she is running for Congress. She was a superdelegate declared for Hillary. Replaced by Erin Bilbray-Kohn. No indication which candidate she prefers. (The undeclared add-on, McAllister, caucused for Obama and so perhaps can be seen as "leaning".); May 18, 2008 12:04 PM
RobH said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 18, 2008 12:05 PM
jpsedona said...: Yam,

Last night you stated: "Of the BHO supporters, true FOR Obama is just 30%, the remaining are anti-Bill Clinton and anti-Women Crowd"

So, you are saying that 70% of Obama's support is anti-Clinton in Democratic nomination contests?

Given her negatives within the Republican circles, does this mean that McCain in GE?

If Obama & Hillary split the vote 50%-50% in the primaries and 70% of his vote wouldn't vote for Hillary, then what makes you think that she doesn't give up 35% of the Dem primary voters for McCain in the GE (50% x 70%)?

Because if you're right about 70% of Obama's vote being anti-woman / anti-Clinton, she'll do worse with Republicans. And as for moderates, why would those voters be impressed with her than people who voted in the primaries?

If you feel strongly that there are 35% of the voters who won't vote for her because she's a woman / Clinton, then McCain needs roughly 15% of the remaining 65% of voters to win.; May 18, 2008 12:06 PM
RobH said...: Yam has told us:

"You are all very pathetic"
"Get a life, morons."

These are surely the arguments that would compel reasoning uncommitted voters, or firm Obama supporters, to consider moving their allegiance to your candidate.....

Too funny.; May 18, 2008 12:07 PM
Economy said...: RobH

The link provided does not resemble the details of a proprietary contract lease.

There are details about distances from property lines, building within a certain distance of windmills, etc. Leases may be sold without owner knowledge. Eminent domain is a clause. The ability to tap oil and gas, increased taxes, payments, etc. Most people just sign and do not consult with an attorney. It is clear that these agents do not want to buy the properties but promise to pay a little more than a farmer can make producing crops to tie into nearby substations, build deep foundations that may disrupt drainage and make access roads to service the turbines. Apparently they provide townships with some funds (e.g. $50K) to allow large trucks to get to the location and need a large area to erect these turbines. Flicker and strobe light are just a few other considerations. Where was this posted?; May 18, 2008 12:15 PM
ed iglehart said...: Economy,

Care to provide a sample contract to illuminate our ignorance and support your point (of which I'm quite unsure)?

"The agriculture population has been decreasing over the last century. The old bumper sticker—-never before have so many been fed by so few for so little."

So it was inevitable, right?

xx
edjjlhvk; May 18, 2008 12:23 PM
jpsedona said...: Economy / RobH,

Wind power is fine but currently unsuitable in most locations in the US based on average wind speed & current efficiencies. There are some locations that are ideally suited to wind power, but most are not too close to large population centers. I will be interested to see what happens with Lake Michigan.

As far as solar pwoer is concerned, if you're interested, the APS Solana project here in AZ should be fantastic and a model for the SW. What's interesting, in comparison to nuclear power, is that it will generate 280MW and take only 3 years to build.

Because the Solana project is a CSP model, the power generation isn't just for when the sun is out.

If you have an interest in the project, check out the APS site:

APS Solana Project; May 18, 2008 12:35 PM
Economy said...: ed iglehart

Unless you are my attorney I cannot provide the lease contract to you. The point being the general population does not appreciate how wind turbines can impact communities that get them. There may be a government role to create exclusion zones to locate wind turbines. Landfills or areas with bad water may be possible locations provided they have the prerequisite wind speeds. In terms of the power grid (this needs to be updated) there are probably strategic locations to consider also. If you have a property a wind developer can be contacted to get their version of a lease contract.

There is a concern about large agribusiness taking over agriculture eventually. The new farm bill allows farm couples making up to $1.5M to get subsidies. Bush proposed $200K. It is interesting that the Democrats want to increase taxes for people making over $250K but could not negotiate to limit farm subsidies to $500K per couple. The reality is that most of these subsides go to a few. Someone with interests in 80 acres growing corn, wheat or soybeans may get about $10-20 per acre in direct payment. With the grain reserves decreasing it is unclear why the government would want to continue paying ($50 per acre on average) anyone with productive land not to grow anything. A Bush veto is expected with a congress override this week. Those supporting this bill with pork rationalize it as a compromise.; May 18, 2008 12:39 PM
Amot said...: CJB,
Erin Bilbray-Kohn is well-known feminist, she is working to get women elected locally and statewide, so I think she is strong Clinton leaner!; May 18, 2008 12:40 PM
Pablo said...: I stopped posting for a bit, but still reading. Was happy to see some of the posts moving towards issues, but have now come to realize only one half of the supporters are mainly talking about issues.

Economy, I really have a hard time with this statement "It would make more sense for Hillary supporters to go to McCain; Obama supporters would really be making a huge shift."
To me, most of BHO and HRC's policy issues seem very similar compared to McCain's. Perhaps you find her health care reform more to the right, I find the opposite. Perhaps her majority of women voters like the fact McCain just a couple of weeks ago opposed a Senate bill for equal pay. Please enlighten me, if anything other than a penalty vote.

I used to enjoy some of Yakonma's posts, even if I didn't agree with them they were more intellectual. They are no longer thought out at all and have made himself quite irrelevant. Only name calling and pulling statistics out of your ass lately. Just wondering, when is the last time you discussed a policy difference? Keep with it if you think the Kenyan heritage and lack of brand name argument is winning them over.; May 18, 2008 1:00 PM
jpsedona said...: Amot,

Catherine Cortez Masto, the AG in NV, is on the uncommitted SD list.

I believe that Erin Bilbray-Kohn who will be the replacement SD, is Caherine's spokesperson. Erin may indeed be a Clinton leaner, but may wait before endorsing anyone. I would be surprised if she didn't support Clinton. She's relatively easy to reach by email, so Matt or Oreo could contact her for her current position.; May 18, 2008 1:07 PM
Peter said...: There is NO sense in HRC supporters to go to McCain when Obama gets the nomination. HRC and McCain have almost nothing in common when it comes to issues while Obama and HRC has a similar view on most major issues. HRC-supporters wanting a third Bush-term are way of track. If you support HRC and are a bit upset with Obama winning the nomination you should think hard for a while, because McCain has almost NOTHING in common with HRC when it comes down to issues. It is one thing to have problems with Obama but supporting McCain is just wrong. I support Obama, but I would have voted for Clinton over McCain any day.

But to be honest I think a lot of these "I would vote for McCain over Obama" is empty threats, when Obama secures the nomination and Clinton withdraw I expect most of HRCs supporters to support Obama.; May 18, 2008 1:21 PM
Yamaka said...: jp:

Let me elaborate on my Math.

There are about 35 million Democratic Primary voters already voted. Of this BHO got about 17 million.

From my view of the world, of this only about 5.1 million is the real Pro-Obama voters. The remaining are both anti-Clinton and anti-women.

In the GE 2008, I expect to get about 66 million for a Centrist/moderate Democratic Candidate like Hillary. (I don't think this is true for a FAR LEFT Liberal Candidate like BHO).

That is, there are about 31 million potentially Left-leaning GE voters, not participated in the Primary.

This 31 million are probably not with anti-Clinton/anti-women deep rooted sentiments. They are by and large slightly Left leaning ideologically. (This people could lean Right depending on the Nominee like BHO, IMO).

Therefore, if Hillary is the Nominee, I expect a tough fight with McCain, and finally she will prevail. She will get about 350 EVs.

If BHO is the Nominee, McCain has a very good chance of moving into the WH, which I have said hundred times in my postings here.

BTW, from your reckoning, you ARE a moderate leaning Right. From that, I assume you ARE a pro-McCain person. For you, BHO should be the Nominee to meet in the GE! Although, you say you are not a Obama supporter!

Then, are you a Hillary supporter?

If not, why not? As I am, she is a moderate of Left leaning, while you are a moderate of Right leaning. You may have a few common themes with us, than with BHO people, who are all bunch of cheats, shenanigans and charlatans!

Cheer, Smile and Vote for Hillary for REAL POSITIVE CHANGE.; May 18, 2008 1:28 PM
Amot said...: JPS,
I found the same info and had the same thoughts... What about us asking her in an e-mail? We can't pass all the job to Matt and Oreo :); May 18, 2008 1:39 PM
jpsedona said...: Yam,

The American electorate is essentially a bell curve. The majority of the people are in the middle. I think McCain is not a traditional conservative (middle right). Hillary independent of her campaign rhetoric in her campaign is (middle-left). Obama is farther left and Liberal.

I do not like Hillary and there's no circumstance in which I could see voting for her.

All candidates are human & flawed. When I've listened to Hillary over the years, and based on her approach to secrecy & enemies, to me, she has the same flaws as Richard Nixon. She might be good on policies, but I believe she's not someone with the honesty & integrity for the oval office.

In comparison, McCain or Obama would be significantly better choices for me.; May 18, 2008 1:44 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Regarding Dina Titus/Erin Bilbray-Kohn

Someone posted this on the SD page:

"I think this is replacing her for the 2008-2012 term. The RE-election of the other leads me this conclusion. she'll still stay as DNC member until AFTER the convention."

.; May 18, 2008 1:52 PM
ed iglehart said...: Economy,

"The point being the general population does not appreciate how wind turbines can impact communities that get them."

Thanks. My position is that any such installations should ideally be community-driven and largely community-owned. It makes any eyesore/noise/etc. objections easier to bear when your own power (and perhaps dividends) are being generated...

It's also a fact that any home which starts generating even a little of its own energy soon finds its total energy use is reduced. There's nothing like it for making one conscious of limits.

I think the future is in distributed generation - every home a power station, and every community with a co-operative. The grid connections should remain to smooth the load, but wouldn't need to be as heavyweight as for the present dependence upon giant stations at great distances from users.

The offshore windfarm I was researching in 2003 has finally gotten round to putting in the bases, and may soon start with towers, TXU went bankrupt in Europe and letf a 5 billion hole, but Powergen (German-owned by e.on) have taken over,,, one of the erection rigs tipped over and had to be evacuated, then its replacement was delayed........Of course, TXU grew up in the same country club circuit as ENRON....

Whatever! We are going to have a foreign-owned-for-foreign-profit industrial installation in the middle of our designated Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, but our village is getting something like £8,000 a year for 'community projects'. I argued for an equity share, but you can guess with what success.

;-)
ed; May 18, 2008 1:53 PM
jpsedona said...: Amot,

If you want to contact Erin, her info is:

ebilbray@emergenv.org

(702)581-3060

Erin Bilbray-Kohn
Emerge Nevada
3151 Coachlight Circle
Las Vegas, NV 89117; May 18, 2008 1:54 PM
ed iglehart said...: By the way, although the windfarm is in Scottish waters, the power is all going to England!

GRRRR!; May 18, 2008 1:57 PM
Peter said...: Re Yamaka

I`m sorry to be rude, but I have to ask:

Do you actually believe your BS?; May 18, 2008 1:57 PM
magia said...: Peter said . . . “That means he will have won the pledged delegate count with a clear and solid margin. He will also be close to 60 delegates (total) away from reaching 2026. Several major superdelegates have said that they will support the candidate who wins the pledged delegate count. Obama declearing victory on tuesday is reasonable and the sooner people like you realize that this is over, the sooner the party can unite. I don`t expect Clinton to declear defeat yet, but it is just a matter of weeks and I think you know that.”

Last first: if it is just a matter of weeks -- 2, I believe -- I hope that Obama will show good sense and wait for the final primary. Why? Hopefully, he understands that a decision to allot delegates for MI and FL will change what constitutes the majority, and he will not want to upstage -- or as some here believe, nullify -- that decision-making. Would you agree that doing so might be viewed unfavorably by the remaining supers? Isn’t he smarter than that?

So waiting for the 5/31 meeting, and the June 3 primaries, would probably be the better political choice. (Remember, this IS politics, and Obama really is a politician, albeit one who will save the world.)

Ed of Inverrary -- I had to say that; I believe I have read that is your neighborhood, but forgive me if I mis-remember. I hope so, as it is one of my favorite places on this earth. Once, after having been to Inverrary, I put on a DVD of “The 39 Steps” to lull me to sleep, but for the first time (in probably 40 viewings of this movie over that last 40 years) I noticed where it was taking place and watched every minute!

Anyway, you wrote, “I didn't sense any 'slant' or negative agenda in your posts, just simple inquiry.” I have made an effort to simply ask questions or make points that I thought had been overlooked, and have tried not to espouse any agenda. That being said, I had better acknowledge that I do not support Obama, I do support Clinton, and I’m sure that has been evident now and then. I’m sorry to say that I believe on this site that makes me guilty of having a “negative agenda.”

But thanks for your welcome, nonetheless - hope it's not rescinded. :); May 18, 2008 2:01 PM
ed iglehart said...: Uri Avnery

Got to be read!

Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
-ed; May 18, 2008 2:06 PM
Economy said...: ed iglehart

What do you think of cold fusion from salt water? Fiction or possible? I think this would be great if it can happen but have not fully seen the substance behind it.

http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/ColdFusion/; May 18, 2008 2:13 PM
Amot said...: JPS,
I don't like bad news and I feel I will get such if I write to Erin Bilbray-Kohn. Please, do it for all of us!

Leah, I explained the situation about who is super in Denver in the SD thread.; May 18, 2008 2:13 PM
RobH said...: Ed,

I read your link to the project earlier, and notoced the dates of '05 as target dates. Understandably delayed, etc. I've now just read your post regarding construction.

Big fan of Googlearth here, as you know. Where in the firth are the towers, relative to you? Is the project connected to the E-on development called Robin Rigg?; May 18, 2008 2:17 PM
Economy said...: Pablo

"Economy, I really have a hard time with this statement "It would make more sense for Hillary supporters to go to McCain; Obama supporters would really be making a huge shift."
To me, most of BHO and HRC's policy issues seem very similar compared to McCain's. Perhaps you find her health care reform more to the right, I find the opposite. Perhaps her majority of women voters like the fact McCain just a couple of weeks ago opposed a Senate bill for equal pay. Please enlighten me, if anything other than a penalty vote."

This is a general statement that Obama is probably the most liberal. By this he has the most programs and will need to generate the most revenue via taxes and debt. Hillary may have a few less programs and a more thought out plan to raise revenue via taxes probably without increasing the debt substantially. McCain has less programs. Thus if a Hillary supporter no longer has Hillary as a choice which way do they go? It may be driven by a particular program that is very important to them. I tend to favor the BlueDog democrats but vote for both Democrats and Republicans. McCain should be working on his economic policy because that is what I'll be comparing to Obama's plans. Do you happen to recall the senate Obamarama (bill that included many of Obama's plans) that even Obama voted against a few months ago? I don't recall any yes votes.; May 18, 2008 2:25 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: From the CNN Political Ticker:

"Huckabee: 'Lousy joke' but 'pretty benign issue' " (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com)

Benign issue? You, Huckabee, just gave a mentally-unstable racist (the the racist's mind) permission to point a gun at Senator Obama.

In his news conference Saturday, Huckabee acknowledged the line was a mistake. “It was a simple thing of an incredible distraction that happened somewhere backstage. I made a rather awkward attempt at a joke, wasn’t all that great. I’ve apologized for it. I didn’t mean to offend anybody. I didn’t even remember having said it. I honestly had to go back and look at the tape.”

Yeah, right, Huckleberry. I'm sure you'd wouldn't say a thing if the same thing was said about McSame, would you?

Mike; May 18, 2008 2:26 PM
ed iglehart said...: Magia,

39 steps partially filmed near here.

Inveraray is maybe 120 miles NNW and beautiful, like much of Scotland. Buchan (39 steps author) lived ~60 miles NNE at Broughton, in Tweeddale. Hannay got off the train at Gatehouse Station (now gone) ~20 miles NW of here.

Don't cut off your right to choice to spite second-place. ;-)

RobH,

It IS Robin Rigg, I can see the site from the field above my house. My next-door neighbours (1/2 mile away) have it in the middle of their magnificent view - ironically, they own a hilltop windfarm on the Ayrshire/kirkcudbrightshire hills....
We are here, and the windfarm is halfway between Balcary point and Maryport, about seven or eight miles from here by crow. Robinrigg is a sandbank.

Economy,

"Cold fusion" sounds like a certain emporer's new suit to me, but I've been wrong before. Laws of technodynamics and all.

Salaam, etc.
ed; May 18, 2008 2:36 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: National

Gallup Tracking 05/15 - 05/17

OBAMA 52
CLINTON 41

Obama +11.0

http://realclearpolitics.com/polls/

:); May 18, 2008 2:49 PM
Peter said...: Re Magia

I think you are correct regarding FL and MI. I think it is pretty clear that MI and FL will not change much for Clinton, but for the sake of winning or having a chance in MI and FL i november both Clinton and Obama will benefit by seating the delegates. The party however need to give both MI and FL a punishment or else we could risk future chaos. In addition to that I think most people are aware that the results in MI and FL don`t truly reflect the candidates position in those states. Clinton probably has the edge in FL, but I think Obama (looking at the demographic) is pretty strong in MI. I also think Obama not being able to campaign in those states is a huge issue. Obama has done well in most states where he has campaigned (compared to polling before he has campaigned).

But that said, I think a good tactic for Obama-camp will be hold of the victory speach until Obama has 2025 delegates. That will probably happen between OR/KY and PR. He could lobby for a quick MI and FL solution, something I think Clinton will accept when Obama reach 2025 (because that means she has lost for sure). A possible solution could be 69-59/2 in MI and similar solution in FL. That would not be a 100% fair solution for Obama, but a compromise could be smart to unite FL and MI democrats so they could start the prepartion for the general election.

I personally don`t think Obama will declear victory on tuesday but I think media will declear (some have allready done that) him the winner since he will have the majority of the pledged delegate. But either way, Obama will be the nominee, there is no credible argument left for Clinton and she trails by all measures.; May 18, 2008 3:03 PM
Economy said...: Leah

Let's focus on KY and OR the next couple days. It looks like KY will go to Hillary and she may be closing the twenty percent gap Obama had previously to five percent.

http://www.usaelectionpolls.com/

Oregon is conducting their primary by mail and there is a dead heat between Obama and Clinton among those who have already mailed their ballot, says American Research Group via the results of their poll. It is those folks mailing in their ballots within the last week that are going to give Obama his edge likely to do the inevitability factor that Obama has. But there's a chance that Clinton does better among voters who have already voted. This would be the case if a voter felt that Obama is the eventual nominee and is regretting his/her vote and kind of shy to admit the truth. If Clinton can pull within a razor thin margin of Obama in Oregon and win Kentucky by as large a margins as she had in West Virginia, it will make for a very interesting June because the pressure will mount on Clinton to drop out but the wins will still be on her side.

According to the Democratic Oregon poll by American Research Group:

Barack Obama leads Hillary Clinton 57% to 39% among men (48% of likely Democratic primary voters). Among women, Clinton leads 51% to 44%.

Obama leads 51% to 44% among white voters (88% of likely Democratic primary voters). Clinton leads 50% to 46% among Hispanic voters (6% of likely Democratic primary voters).

Obama leads 55% to 38% among voters age 18 to 49 (49% of likely Democratic primary voters) and Clinton leads 52% to 45% among voters age 50 and older.

Clinton and Obama are tied at 49% each among voters saying they have returned their ballots (58% of likely Democratic primary voters) and Obama leads 52% to 40% among voters saying they will definitely return their ballots by May 20th.

20% of likely Democratic primary voters say they would never vote for Hillary Clinton in the primary and 22% of likely Democratic primary voters say they would never vote for Barack Obama in the primary.

According to the Democratic Kentucky poll by American Research Group:

Hillary Clinton leads Barack Obama 56% to 38% among men (45% of likely Democratic primary voters). Among women, Clinton leads 72% to 21%.

Clinton leads 73% to 21% among white voters (87% of likely Democratic primary voters). Obama leads 91% to 7% among African American voters (11% of likely Democratic primary voters).

Clinton leads 59% to 35% among voters age 18 to 49 (46% of likely Democratic primary voters) and Clinton leads 71% to 23% among voters age 50 and older.

12% of likely Democratic primary voters say they would never vote for Hillary Clinton in the primary and 50% of likely Democratic primary voters say they would never vote for Barack Obama in the primary.; May 18, 2008 3:04 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Economy said,

This is a general statement that Obama is probably the most liberal. By this he has the most programs and will need to generate the most revenue via taxes and debt. Hillary may have a few less programs and a more thought out plan to raise revenue via taxes probably without increasing the debt substantially. McCain has less programs. Thus if a Hillary supporter no longer has Hillary as a choice which way do they go? It may be driven by a particular program that is very important to them. I tend to favor the BlueDog democrats but vote for both Democrats and Republicans. McCain should be working on his economic policy because that is what I'll be comparing to Obama's plans. Do you happen to recall the senate Obamarama (bill that included many of Obama's plans) that even Obama voted against a few months ago? I don't recall any yes votes.

Thank you for talking about the issues. I hope you start using Obama instead of Obamarama more often.

McCain just now starting to develop an economic poicy is something else. Trickle down economics just don't seem to be getting it.; May 18, 2008 3:13 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Just to let everyone know the current situation:

Oreo said...

Alex is correct. We got confirmation from the Nevada Democratic Party that Titus will be a superdelegate in Denver.

"Dina is the committee person for this presidential cycle. Erin will be the committee person to the 2012 convention."

.; May 18, 2008 3:17 PM
Economy said...: softspoken22

The senate Obamarama was coined by the Republicans. This term was for consistency in case someone wanted to look up the reference.

I have not been a fan of trickledown economics. Apparently cell phones and clothing are no longer made in the good old USA. While consumers may enjoy paying a lower price, our jobs paying the middle class do not seem to make up the difference.; May 18, 2008 3:28 PM
ed iglehart said...: McChip's economic program will, of course have to allow for continuing the war. He appears briefly here, along with another, better war hero.

xx
ed; May 18, 2008 3:29 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Economy said: "Leah, Let's focus on KY and OR the next couple days. "
_____________

Economy- there not much to focus on there until the results start to come in. Hillary will win Kentucky and Obama will win Oregon. Obama will have enough pledged delegates to have the 'majority' of PDs.

Not much more than that will happen ;)

.; May 18, 2008 3:29 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: I am amazed that for all the folks on this thread that want a woman to be president that not one person commented when I posted the link to this article yesterday:

If Not Hillary, Who Will Be The First Female President?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/18/weekinreview/18zernike.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

.; May 18, 2008 3:36 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Leah said...
I am amazed that for all the folks on this thread that want a woman to be president . . . .

Leah,

It's not so much that they want a woman to be president so much as they want a PARTICULAR woman to be president, and/or they want to throw everything they can, including sand and the kitchen sink, into the gears so that Senator Obama's campaign fails due to discord.

Those throwing things into the gears are either:
- Short-sighted feminists or feminist sympathizers who want a woman as President NOW, and have no patience until a better qualified candidate appears (of which there will be one day in the near future);
- Republicans in disguise who would never support a Democratic nominee, but love causing havoc;
- Some who just haven't come to the reality that their candidate has lost, and are throwing hissy-fits in retribution; or
- Racists who don't want to see a person other than a white person in the Oval Office.

I think we can differentiate which camp most of the garbage-throwing posters fall into.

Mike; May 18, 2008 3:53 PM
jpsedona said...: Economy,

You reference ARG in your posts about Oregon being a close contest.

The ARG polling is so unreliable that RCP wasn't including their results in any of the primary averages (they were a consistent outlier). RCP is including it in their Oregon numbers, but quite frankly the only rationale to do so is because many of the more accurate polling companies have stopped Dem primary polling to focus on the GE / Dem nomination polling.; May 18, 2008 3:55 PM
ed iglehart said...: Leah,

I couldn't care less what gender attaches to the occupant of the Oral Office! I just want the best, and at the moment, that's clearly CLEARLY Obama.

I dearly hope that when, sometime in the future, the BEST candidate happens to be female, my countrymen(and women) will elect her.

xx
ed; May 18, 2008 4:08 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: ed iglehart said: "Leah, I couldn't care less what gender attaches to the occupant of the Oral Office! I just want the best, and at the moment, that's clearly CLEARLY Obama."
_______________________

Of course it is CLEARLY OBAMA!

I was only trying to get a conversation going about something other than about windmills and energy ;)

p.s. When you said 'Oral' Office was that a little Freudian slip about Bill? ;)
ROTFLMAO!; May 18, 2008 4:17 PM
Economy said...: Newspaper article: Why the Democrats could lose

Democrats seem intent on nominating Barack Obama, in the face of mounting evidence that Hillary Clinton would be the stronger candidate against John McCain in November. And they only have themselves to blame.

Yes, the Clinton camp made strategic blunders that allowed Obama to score heavily in Republican states where few Democrats vote. But the real culprit is the party's stupid, self-destructive nominating system, which has two major flaws.

First, it was designed to anoint a nominee by early February, far too early in the process. The result: Obama built up an insurmountable lead at a time when he was still largely unblemished, untested and unscrutinized. The past six weeks have brought tougher media coverage, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright's tapes, the candidate's ill-considered comments about "bitter" voters and a wave of second thoughts among key groups like union members and white Catholics.

Second, the nominating system was completely incapable of reflecting these shifts. Not only were few states remaining on the calendar, the rules of proportional representation made it almost impossible for Clinton to catch up.

Since Feb. 19, seven states have voted. Clinton has won four -- Pennsylvania, Texas, Ohio and Rhode Island --building up a popular-vote margin of 483,000. Yet her total gain in delegates was exactly five. In Texas, she won by more than 100,000 votes, but because of that state's ridiculous rules, she actually came out five delegates behind.

How can that outcome possibly be fair? How can it possibly benefit the party?

Wait, it gets worse. Obama built up sizable margins in small states that Clinton was foolish enough to concede. His delegate advantage in Idaho, Kansas and Louisiana -- three states that will never vote Democratic -- was a total of 38. By contrast, Clinton handily won three large swing states -- Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Ohio. And yet, because of party rules, her combined marginal gain amounted to 28 delegates.

How can it make sense for Idaho, Kansas and Louisiana to have a bigger impact on choosing the Democratic nominee than Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Ohio? Add in the exclusion of Florida and Michigan, two crucial states that favor Clinton, and there's only one word for the Democrats' system: crazy. And Republicans are gleeful.

Three months ago, they were convinced that Clinton was the easier candidate to beat, and she's hardly an ideal choice, not when more than half of all voters tell ABC pollsters they don't like or trust her. But many GOP insiders now see her as a tougher, more tenacious rival, and the latest polls support that judgment.

The Associated Press-Ipsos survey gives Clinton a 50 percent to 41 percent edge over McCain, while Obama ties his Republican rival. As GOP pollster Steve Lombardo told the AP: "This just reinforces the sentiment that a lot of Republican strategists are having right now -- that Clinton might actually be the more formidable fall candidate for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that Obama can't seem to get his footing back."

One of those strategists, Rep. Tom Cole of Oklahoma, added that Obama "is by any definition very liberal, to the left of Hillary Clinton, in a center-right country. That is very, very helpful to us." Already Republican candidates in North Carolina and Louisiana are running ads linking Democrats to Obama and his "very liberal" policies. And that's only the first trickle in a tidal wave to come.

Obama can make some strong counterarguments. While Clinton might be the better candidate in traditional swing battlegrounds, he can "expand the map" by bringing in new voters, mainly young people and blacks, and making the Democrats competitive in red states like Colorado and Virginia.

The election map, however, has been starkly static during the Bush years, with only three small states switching sides between 2000 and 2004. Winning Ohio with Clinton is a safer bet for Democrats than capturing Colorado and Virginia with Obama.

So why don't Democratic leaders and superdelegates face these facts and shift to Clinton? One reason is race. It's true, as Obama says, that being black in America has hardly been a political asset, given the fact that he's the only African-American in the U.S. Senate.

But at this time, in this party, being black is an enormous asset. Given America's long, torturous path toward racial justice, many Democrats simply cannot imagine denying the nomination to the first serious African-American candidate for president.

From a moral perspective, that's a noble judgment. From a political perspective, it could cost Democrats the White House.

--------

Steve Roberts' latest book is "My Fathers' Houses: Memoir of a Family" (William Morrow, 2005). Steve and Cokie Roberts can be contacted by e-mail at stevecokie@gmail.com.; May 18, 2008 4:29 PM
tmess2 said...: If Obama is going to declare a victory on Tuesday (and the leaks in the media tend to suggest that he is), my expectation is that one of two things is true.

Either he has the 50-60 unpledged delegates ready to say that Obama is the nominee and endorse him or he has 50-60 delegates willing to endorse him once he is the presumptive nominee.

There are solid reasons for wanting to be the presumptive nominee before May 31st and the RBC meeting. It has to do with who is in the position of strength going into that meeting. The decisions in that meeting are not about legal issues, they are about political issues and so framing the issues is important. There is a substantial difference in how those issues appear if there is a presumptive nominee as opposed to the front-runner.

On other news today, apparently there was a Washington Post op-ed piece by Robert Strauss -- one of the uncommitted DPL's. I had always assumed that in the end he would be supporting Clinton. However, in the piece, he all but endorses Obama and calls on Clinton to concede.; May 18, 2008 4:31 PM
ed iglehart said...: Economy, Namaste

Are you familiar with Farming and the Global Economy, and its author?

I'd love to have your perspective. I live in farming country, and am only a generation from tillers of the soil.

Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
-ed; May 18, 2008 4:35 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: tmess2 said...
On other news today, apparently there was a Washington Post op-ed piece by Robert Strauss -- one of the uncommitted DPL's. I had always assumed that in the end he would be supporting Clinton. However, in the piece, he all but endorses Obama and calls on Clinton to concede.

Strauss' op-ed piece ran Friday. He couches his language well, but reading between the lines, you can tell he's saying that the race is over, and we have a nominee.

[T]hat conviction is predicated on the Democratic Party shifting out of nominating mode. . . The process has been played, and it has been played out.

The full op-ed can be read here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/15/AR2008051503578.html
TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/6yfqea

Very much worth reading.

Mike; May 18, 2008 4:45 PM
ed iglehart said...: Economy,

Interesting article. You can make links easily, if you want to.

Most of it is pretty much 'opinion'(some expertly supported), and the rest is 'moving the goalposts' type of arguments. We have to work with the rules as written. I have faith that it's Obama's time, and I do find it difficult to imagine someone with HRC's negatives (as revealed in polling) as a stronger candidate, but we're unlikely to ever know.

I think Obama is lucky in having McChip as his opposition, as I can't imagine a less attractive, more error-prone, dim-witted (894 out of 899 at Annapolis - would he have got through if his dad wasn't an admiral?) fool of a candidate.

We'll see. Hillary is history.

Salaam, etc.
ed; May 18, 2008 4:54 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Here is my take on what will happen THIS WEDNESDAY.

Okay, last Tuesday HRC won WV then Obama went to Michigan Wednesday and told the audience that he felt bad that he has not had the opportunity to spend time in Michigan with the voters so he brought them a surprise/present and it was John Edwards.

So, this Tuesday HRC will win Kentucky and he will win Oregon then he will be in FLORIDA on WEDNESDAY. I think he will be bringing Florida a surprise as well. And that surprise will probably be Al Gore.

.; May 18, 2008 5:05 PM
Yamaka said...: "She might be good on policies, but I believe she's not someone with the honesty & integrity for the oval office."

jp:

Thanks for your candid view on the candidates.

What specific behavior of BHO gives you the confidence of his honesty & integrity for the Oval Office?

On what type of a model will he run on for his administrative style?

Clearly, he cannot invoke the 1990s - the period of Golden Era in Economy, the Dollar and the Brand Name of America all over the world- because he has trashed Bill Clinton from Day One. He hated Bill's Triangulation Philosophy - to rule from the Center.

Is BHO going to follow the foot steps of Carter? Maybe that is apt for him to get overwhelmingly defeated to send Cindy and John McCain to the White House.

Congress went to Dems in 2006 - they have NOT achieved any. Their approval rating is in 20%, worst than Dubya's 30%.

Therefore, both WH and the Congress would leave them in 2008. The Democratic Party will be the Minority Party for another decade.

Perhaps, that's exactly what you want to happen!

:-); May 18, 2008 5:12 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Yamaka-

Senator Obama does not have to follow in the footsteps of Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter. He will be walking in his own shoes into the future and leaving his own footprints in the sand.

Past vs. Future

Obama '08

.; May 18, 2008 5:17 PM
Yamaka said...: The propaganda machine of Joe P. Goebbels & Co is in full swing:

BHO has already won the Presidency!

He has won KY OR PR MT and SD.

Voila...Wallah...what a victory! A Landslide since the dawn of time!!

People are waiting with roses to kiss his nicotine tinged fingers!

Long Live the Monarch!

BHO''s Lemmings, you have no shame on earh!

:-(; May 18, 2008 5:19 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Yamaka-

No, HRC will win Kentucky.

But Obama will more than likely win Oregon, Montana, South Dakota. PR could go either way at this point ;); May 18, 2008 5:25 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; May 18, 2008 5:29 PM
jpsedona said...: Yam,

My perspective on Hillary is the "devil you know versus the devil you don't know" ... in the case of Hillary, I have a perspective of exactly how she will act & behave. As far as McCain & Obama, either could out the same as Hillary...

but from a 'high water mark', Hillary is not going to be more honest, less secretive and act in a bipartisan fashion unless it's to her political advantage. That's just my perspective.; May 18, 2008 5:40 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Here is some more info on compressed natural gas. I know it is finite, but for now it's out there. National Geographic had done an article that we would be out of crude oil reserves before the 21st century. Why wasn't that taken more seriously?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_natural_gas; May 18, 2008 5:50 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Live stream link for Obama Portland OR rally happening now:

http://www.katu.com/news/content/7315311.html

.; May 18, 2008 6:01 PM
Yamaka said...: "My perspective on Hillary is the "devil you know versus the devil you don't know" .

jp:

Thanks for your perspective.

I am used to the saying that "known devil is better than the unknown devil" ! lol

:-)

_________________________________

BHO's Propaganda Machines, the subsidiary of Joe P Goebells & Co:

BHO is incapable of thinking hard on debilitating policy issues: It needs the brains like that of Clintons who can handle multiple variable at any given time.

Even for a single variable BHO would need extra oxygen, because half of his brain is already toasted on nicotine overload!

He has been wasting half of his life time going out of his Office to smoke in the open to kill hundreds of unsuspecting non-smokers! Ask Michelle of his personal habits. It stinks!!

He will overturn all tobacco related safety ordinances, if elected! His greatest achievement!!

Next to Reparations for Blacks!!!!

_______________________________

In KY Hillary has 65% and OR it is very tight as per ARG

Sure, on Wed she will be swift-boated by the Kenyan Heritage!

That's new type of politics in Chicago!!

:-(; May 18, 2008 6:19 PM
Peter said...: 75 000 people on a Obama rally in Portland....

Thats amazing. Just amazing.; May 18, 2008 6:33 PM
suzihussein22 said...: http://www.forbes.com/2007/06/26/iberdrola-energy-east-markets-equity-cx_vr_0626markets07.html

Spain's Iberdrola is hoping to gain a 15% share in USA's wind power market by 2010.

living green on a local scale- We're getting ready to have fish 'n chips tonight thanks to our local river.; May 18, 2008 6:34 PM
protactinium said...: ed-"The important thing to note about an ecosystem's carrying capacity is that exceeding it degrades it, so that, after the overload has (inevitably) collapsed, the system's capacity is significantly reduced."

Ed I am do not been to sound harsh. But this is Hocus Pocus Science.

I have heard of this theroy and it exsists on alot of questionable facts. The whole population of earth e the can fit in an urbanized area about the size of Texas. Also phycial pollution levels (not Co2) has droped in America, and appears the worst is behind us. It also banks on the fact that the Earth does not repair its self well. What happens we hit "Maximum Capicity" which no one really knows the number people have been crying about this for almost litterly 100 years. Saying the enviorment is getting too cold, or too warm, there will be famines and it is over populated. What is more likley to happen is that certian areas will get squeezed by famine and what not if this should occur, but by no means would cause a cataclasmic collapse.

Also look at per acre yeild for farmers over the last 100 years, and how much labor it takes to manage that field. The yield has grown dramatically and the labor droped.

Everytime we hit the "threashold" it seems that we suddenly get better at producing more food, more energy, more of everything.

Also we are most likly at the highest point of polluation in the world. Once India, China get online their pollution levels will drop. As did Americas. Also with the soaring price of energy the world will use more and more renewable resources.

This is mostly fear mongering by the enviromentists, and the religious right also embrace it to prove the Armagedon will be comming soon. (something they have been saying for ever long)

I am all for cleaning up our Earth, but cataclasmic failure is not envitable. And if the earth did have problems it will quickly rebuild itself between nature doing is thing, and Humans helping promote it.

Also Space Travel solves alot of this.; May 18, 2008 6:40 PM
Economy said...: ed iglehart

“Are you familiar with Farming and the Global Economy, and its author?”

I’m not familiar with the author but in the year 1999 overproduction was believed to keep grain prices low. This was brought on by the Earl Butz fencerow-to-fencerow 1970s that led to exports that did not continue. There was a bust in the early 1980s. Thus the government paid people not to grow. Highly erodible land was targeted for conservation. Since the 1980’s the USDA has indicated that practices have reduced erosion over a twenty-five year period.
soilerosion
Today with the various demands the grain prices are better. The population of the USA is over 300 million and is projected to grow to 400 million in about thirty years. The world population is growing even faster. Anywhere there is population, there is a need to deal with pollution. Agriculture is one source. There seems to be more emphasis on using what is produced within a region. The Farm Bureau has been involved. Your county probably has a local office if you are not a member.
soilerosion
The farming tradition used to have livestock and grain crops. This allowed manure to be spread on the fields as well as pasture. Many of these farms are now mostly grain so they rely on crop rotation and chemicals for fertilizer and weed control. Most grain farms today are chemically farmed. The issue raised is sustainable agriculture. A few farmers are gradually converting to organic farming but it takes about three years to become certified. Organic farming may be more labour intensive thus the number of acres may be less but there is a gradual increase in demand. Apparently certified organic can return higher prices per bushel. I’ve had some exposure to the Amish but am not sure if they are certified organic or not. The new farm bill may encourage more organic in fruits and vegetables. There are a number of people looking at sustainable agriculture. Water quality and other issues need to be taken into account.
sustainable

Hopefully this is of interest.; May 18, 2008 6:43 PM
Peter said...: Yamaka could you please try to write a post without using hate or racism?; May 18, 2008 6:44 PM
ed iglehart said...: Prot.

"The whole population of earth e the can fit in an urbanized area about the size of Texas."

but would you enjoy that? and what would you eat?

What you call hocus pocus is REAL SCIENCE.

Your simple-minded optimism is the real hocus pocus:

Three fallacies of the mainstream economic and technological model:
1. "Marie Antoinette Economics", (the assumption of substitutability)
2. "Custer's Folly", (the technological cavalry will save us from ecological disaster), and
3. "False Complacency from Partial Success" (or "Not Beating the Wife As Much As Before")

You can't Eat GNP.

Space travel? Don't make me laugh! How much energy would it take to accelerate 7 billion folk to seven miles per second?

Or do you expect to be among the elite?; May 18, 2008 6:52 PM
Yamaka said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; May 18, 2008 6:57 PM
protactinium said...: Yam -"He will overturn all tobacco related safety ordinances, if elected! His greatest achievement!!

Next to Reparations for Blacks!!!!

That is the type of new politics in Chicago"

You clearly fall in to the uneducated bracket of Hillarys support base.

First. Reparations for blacks comment is racist showing your true bigatory.

Second. Chicago, and Il both have indivually banned smoking in public buildings such as work, bars, resturates etc.

People like you make me realize why Hillary is a bad candite. Ignorant follow the Ignorant. Maybe you should read on policys before writing.

However I am guessing You, Jean, Mag, and Economy are nothing more then talking republican tools. Come here to rile up trouble.

When Obama wins the presidency I will think of all you. And remember that the intelletucally do win, and the ignorant usually are on the side lines.; May 18, 2008 6:58 PM
protactinium said...: Also I read something about Raplh Nadar being apart of the green party. I have been told by Green party members this is not true. They endorsing the democrats this year. They do not want another Bush vs Gore disastor. As for Barr he is fairly conservative and should hurt Mccain worse then Obama.

The comment about Ron Paul endorsing Obama is possible. I have heard Ron Paul say that he may not endorse the Republican canidite because America is more important then his party. Ron Paul republicans also have been doing well and winning seats also. Ron Paul supporters look alot like Obama supporters on many of the issues.; May 18, 2008 7:01 PM
ed iglehart said...: Economy,

Thanks for that. The third link shows a bunch of farmers (I assume) in suits around a table indoors. ;-)

I do recommend my friend the author, who has sat round such tables, but also still plows with horses. He is in Kentucky, and is counted a fine thinker/doer.

Thoughts

Happy farming
ed; May 18, 2008 7:02 PM
Yamaka said...: "Thats amazing. Just amazing."

peter:

OR is very close as per the polls.

Yes, BHO, the Manchurian Candidate has been drawing big crowds in TX too.

But in the Primary he lost by 4%.
(In the TX Caucus many of Hillary's constituency (women, working and older folks) did not go to the Caucus, because it has been a huge mess and time consuming process - structural impediments for the voters, which BHO exploited in most of the Caucuses!! He has been an Opportunistic Black Politician)

OR will be a repeat!; May 18, 2008 7:03 PM
Peter said...: Neither candidate has used hate or racism. But some voters like you have. I have read several of your posts and I haven`t seen a single post without refering to race or similar. It is nice that you are enthusiastic about HRC but your lies , racism and hate is just sad. Please try to modify your tone a bit. I think most people one this site (including Clinton-supporters) agree with me.; May 18, 2008 7:03 PM
protactinium said...: ed "Space travel? Don't make me laugh! How much energy would it take to accelerate 7 billion folk to seven miles per second?"

You do relize their is no friction is space right? Once in motion you will stay in motion. Two your closed mindness to space travel troubles me because you appear to be claming armageddon is comming.

Also the point of the Texas thing is you could use the rest of the world to support this area, that alot more area.

The "folly" you speak have held true for the last several 100 years.

You closed mindness to anything other then a single solutation sadens me.; May 18, 2008 7:06 PM
Economy said...: protactinium

“However I am guessing You, Jean, Mag, and Economy are nothing more then talking republican tools. Come here to rile up trouble.”

I voted for Hillary in the Ohio primary. Prior to that I was leaning toward Obama but I needed more than great speeches. I voted for Bill Clinton and Al Gore too. Everyone should let Hillary fight to the bitter end. My guess if Florida and Michigan are seated that everything should be resolved in about three weeks. Unless one candidate concedes before then let’s not ask either to quit or declare a nominee for the general election.; May 18, 2008 7:07 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Yamaka said: "But in the Primary he lost by 4%.
(In the TX Caucus many of Hillary's constituency (women, working and older folks) did not go to the Caucus, because it has been a huge mess and time consuming process - structural impediments for the voters, which BHO exploited in most of the Caucuses!! He has been an Opportunistic Black Politician)"
_____________________

That is just B.S.
Hillary won my precinct hear on the west side of Houston. Clinton supporters came out just like the Obama supporters did. In some places there were more Clinton people and in others there were more Obama people. It just so happened that there were more Obama people and she lost. Don't be a sore loser!

And don't forget that Texas has a two-step process and at the moment Obama is ahead in total delegates from TEXAS - TEXAS IS FOR OBAMA!; May 18, 2008 7:11 PM
Peter said...: Obama has a double digit lead in OR Yam, a single poll from ARG is not statistically relevant. You should look at "poll of polls", that means the average of several polls, like what Realclearpolitics have. Just picking a poll the way it suits you, is not relevant. I could have picked Portland Tribune who has Obama 20 points ahead, or PPP with 14 points, but one single poll is not that intersting, look at the average. The average at RCP is 12,4 points for Obama. ARG is the only poll where Clinton is within single digits.

So, 12,4 OR and 30,5 KY, that is the poll you should look at.

By the way, ARG has overstated HRC-support in several states, look at the last three:

North Carolina ARG: Obama 8, actual 14,7%
Indiana: ARG: Clinton 8, actual: 1,4
Pennsylvania: ARG: Clinton 13, actual 9,2; May 18, 2008 7:15 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Economy said: "Unless one candidate concedes before then let’s not ask either to quit ..... "
_________________________

1) Senator Obama has never said that Hillary should quit.

2) Tuesday evening when Senator Obama receives 13 more pledged delegates he will have the 'majority' of the pledged delegates. He has a right to claim victory to that fact.

Today Hillary is claiming 'popular vote' - which is not true Obama is still ahead of her in popular vote even with Florida added into the mix.; May 18, 2008 7:17 PM
Economy said...: McCain is starting to look better than Obama since you seem to be trying to shove him down our throats. If you want to bring the party together try a better approach.; May 18, 2008 7:21 PM
Independent Voter said...: Leah, You said: "That is just B.S.
Hillary won my precinct hear on the west side of Houston. Clinton supporters came out just like the Obama supporters did. In some places there were more Clinton people and in others there were more Obama people. It just so happened that there were more Obama people and she lost. Don't be a sore loser!

And don't forget that Texas has a two-step process and at the moment Obama is ahead in total delegates from TEXAS - TEXAS IS FOR OBAMA!"

--------

Correct me if I am wrong, but the primary in Texas is "open" right?

Do you know if the caucus is also open or is it closed to Democrats only?

If the caucus is closed, then that would also explain why Obama won that portion of the process, which could also explain the extent "operation chaos" was successful in TX.; May 18, 2008 7:28 PM
RobH said...: Honestly Peter, and Protactinium and Leah,

Have you noticed that every time Yamaka refers to Democrats he says "they"?

What does that tell you? It tells me that he is neither a Hillary supporter, nor a Democrat.
Don't you get it? He's a repub, and he's getting paid to sow discord, and if you engage him, then it works.

Quarantine.; May 18, 2008 7:47 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Independent voter -

Texas was an open primary.
ANYONE that voted in the democratic primary was allowed to caucus.

.; May 18, 2008 7:49 PM
Economy said...: protactinium and Leah

If you think some of our comments are to rile up trouble, take a look at a small sample of what lies ahead for the democrat nominee in the GE. There are worse sites than this one below.
endorsement
If you can’t take the heat stay out of the kitchen! I'm out of here.; May 18, 2008 7:52 PM
RobH said...: Too funny, economy. Your last two sentences were priceless. I'm guessing you didn't mean it this way but:

"If you can’t take the heat stay out of the kitchen! I'm out of here."

Did I read that correctly?; May 18, 2008 8:03 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Economy said...
If you think some of our comments . . . I'm out of here.

Good riddance to bad rubbish. And since you referred to yourself in the plural, I presume you will be taking Yamakamikaze with you?

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Mike; May 18, 2008 8:04 PM
ed iglehart said...: Prot,

"You do relize their is no friction is space right? Once in motion you will stay in motion."

Learn some basic physics.

I'll give you a clue: To get in motion you have to accelerate. It also pays to have a life-support system, and it needs to be accelerated as well.; May 18, 2008 8:09 PM
Yamaka said...: RodentinMD:

BHO left me when he said, "The Republican Party is the Party of Ideas".

Now it appears that the Democratic Party is itching to leave me because it has become a Party of undemocratic principle of punishing innocent voters of MI and FL in order to pander to the Minority in the Party.

The Party wants the Majority (most of White women, working and older White Americans) to sit at the Back of the Bus, which is careening towards a suicidal path of self-destruction!

I have to get off the Bus by June 3 when the results of RBC will be known for sure. (BTW, why didn't the Party convene this RBC Meeting 3 months ago? A conspiracy to punish Hillary!! By the anti-women crowd in the Party!).

Who is going to be the Mandela of White Majority in the Democratic Party?

Rodent, any answer?

:-(

Clintons!; May 18, 2008 8:19 PM
ed iglehart said...: The Sermon on the Shore?

;-)
ed; May 18, 2008 8:21 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Economy said:

If you think some of our comments are to rile up trouble, take a look at a small sample of what lies ahead for the democrat nominee in the GE. There are worse sites than this one below.

Your comments haven't been so bad, but the argument that's for the greater good of the party sometimes just gives Rep. stuff to smear and twist.; May 18, 2008 8:46 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: The Sermon on the Shore is top Headline at HuffPost w/HUGE PHOTO:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

OVER 75,000 people!
It was an awesome rally. I heard most of it but the darn video on my computer was lagging during most of it ;(

.; May 18, 2008 8:52 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Yamaka said...
BHO left me when he said, "The Republican Party is the Party of Ideas".

Yamakamikaze,

If your going to quote, please try to get it close, and in context.

Senator Obama did NOT say "is", but in referring to the Republican Party of the late 1970s into the 1980s, he said "WAS". "Was", as in the past, not in the present.

Senator Obama did not say the Republican party was the party of 'new ideas', just 'ideas'.

What ideas did the Democratic Party have during the late 70s into the 1980s? Not many, if any, that were not a reworking of the ideas of the 1950s, 60s and early 70s. And the few new ideas that they did have did not excite the American public very much, so they rejected one incumbent Democratic President, and the following two Democratic nominees.

Most of the ideas the Democratic Party was advancing in the late 1970s and 1980s were seen as warmed-over ideas from the 1950s and 1960s; programs that many saw as endangering their life-style, social standing and philosophy. America was NOT in a left-of-center mind frame at the time, and wanted a break from the social unrest, social upheaval and upheaval in society that had been going on for more than 20 years.

In effect, the American populace wanted a TIME OUT from change.

Did Senator Obama say that he agreed with those ideas of the Republican Party? If he did, it is up to you to prove it, as I didn't hear or see any report that he agreed with those ideas.

Now go do some research on the subject.

Mike; May 18, 2008 8:55 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: MAN OH MAN!

Look at the 2nd photo down from the top on this page:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/18/obama-draws-record-crowd-in-oregon/#comment-1015698

Enough said!
.; May 18, 2008 9:02 PM
Yamaka said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; May 18, 2008 9:21 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Yamaka said: "Americans want the Ninetees back!"
_______________________

Yamaka,
No NOT ALL American want the 90's back. Some of us want the FUTURE!

The era of the DOTcom boom is over. The era of cheap gas is over. The era of the Clintons is over.

It is time to move on into the future - a future with President Obama!

.; May 18, 2008 9:25 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Reading that WC said to vote for hope above fear, this quote caught my ears in the movie King Arthur. It is inspired by new archaelogical evidence and of course is a dramatization.

There is no worse death than the end of hope.
Pelagius

He was actually a monk that taught free will as is claimed in the movie.I found the quote on Wiki, as well as: If I ought, I can.; May 18, 2008 9:25 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: One of Bill Clinton's laws of politics is, if one candidate is trying to scare you, and the other one is trying to make you think, if one candidate's appealing to your fears, and the other one's appealing to your hopes, Bill Clinton said, “You better vote for the person who wants you to think and hope."

VOTE FOR HOPE
VOTE FOR CHANGE
VOTE FOR OBAMA ;); May 18, 2008 9:30 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Obama also has a big help with the media and kids that probable won't vote come nov. Jean; May 18, 2008 9:38 PM
Squirrel said...: JesusChri.st endorses Obama

Now that is what one can call an endorsement!

http://jesuschri.st/news1.htm; May 18, 2008 9:39 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Senator Clinton IS more vetted.

Senator Clinton is better qualified.

Senator Clinton has more integrity, wisdom, compassion, intelligence, eloquence and grace
very strong woman.
Senator Clinton will make America proud and will bring respect back to America in the eyes of the world when she becomes the next President of the UNITED States of America!

Just keep repeating over and over 100 times ... President Clinton President Clinton President Clinton

Glad to see all these posts since I've been gone would like to say I'vr missed you but sorry LOL LOL had to much fun!!!! Jean; May 18, 2008 9:48 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; May 18, 2008 9:52 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: My original post is at:

May 18, 2008 1:20 AM

for comparison.

.; May 18, 2008 9:55 PM
Squirrel said...: Leah,

Sorry to say why does that not surprise me?; May 18, 2008 9:56 PM
Squirrel said...: Aunt Jean,

Even JesusChri.st is against you now!

What hope is there left for Clinton?

None!; May 18, 2008 9:58 PM
Yamaka said...: BHO's FAR Left Liberal Ideology of "Change" means this:

1. Reparation for Blacks.

2. Tax the rich and feed everybody else.

3. Distribute income and wealth

4. Destroy the high-skilled high income people by punitive taxation

5. Keep Blacks and other low income people dependent on Govt, because they are the Voter Bank.

6. Make America Smokers Paradise!!

7. Convert America as a backwater of Kenya! :-(

Mondale, Dukakkis and Kerry the demigods of Liberal Ideology are all buried in the Graveyard of Dead and Gone. BHO wants a place there!!

Let him go there happily.

We will fight you ever where: in the mountains, in the valleys, in the cities and the small towns.

We will NEVER give up the Golden Era of America, of growth and prosperity.

Petty peddlers of appeasement to our enemies will be driven out of America very soon.

Smile, Cheer and Vote for Hillary - the moderate centrist- for Prosperity in America, to gain the Paradise Lost. :-); May 18, 2008 9:59 PM
Squirrel said...: Yamaka,

Is that an American name?

After all it is you who comes out with the rubbish about American names!

Are 'you' saying that 'blacks' (your wording) should get reparations?

Also what skin color are you please? It may help us understand your prejudice a little.; May 18, 2008 10:03 PM
RobH said...: Too funny.

I think Yam's head is about to explode...

Oooohhh Nooooooooo

It's all a conspiracy....
Against Hillary.....
Ooohhh Noooooo.....

More of the arguments that are sure to sway undecided voters and SD's.....

Ooohhhh Noooooo; May 18, 2008 10:07 PM
RobH said...: Hey Aunt Jean,

I'm happy to say that that old chestnut about the kids not coming out to vote in November, is yesterday's thinking. It's the mantra that HRC supporters will use to strike fear in the hearts of SD to sell their candidate's electability argument, or that McCain supporters will use to enable them to cling to the possibility of victory in the run up to November.

Of course, we'll really not know until Nov 5, but we should make some kind of arrangements to be in touch to see how it came out.; May 18, 2008 10:12 PM
Economy said...: Leah, Amot, protactinium, Mike in Maryland

Obama had a recent posting that his loyalists should be nice to Hillary supporters. Well there was nothing about being nice to Obama loyalists. ed iglehart, softspoken22 and jpsedona were respectable so feel free to skip this one.

ObamaSupporters

RobH it is important to have a sense of humor.; May 18, 2008 10:15 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Leah sorry to disappoint you but the green paper or sheet has Hillary with more VOTES thank you. Jean; May 18, 2008 10:20 PM
Aunt Jean said...: robh it's been known that they mostly vote in primarys not in nov. for the presidental election. Jean; May 18, 2008 10:23 PM
Yamaka said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; May 18, 2008 10:24 PM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 18, 2008 10:26 PM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; May 18, 2008 10:27 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: The only numbers that matter...

Number of delegates needed to secure the nomination:

OBAMA....115
H.Rodham 306; May 18, 2008 10:29 PM
Aunt Jean said...: RobH yes we should stay in touch when the election is over. Jean; May 18, 2008 10:31 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Economy we both know that Obama hasn't done much. Jean; May 18, 2008 10:32 PM
RobH said...: Aunt Jean,

Until this year...
(IMO); May 18, 2008 10:33 PM
RobH said...: Leah,

I have to admit that Yam has been a terrific source of comedic material for me over the past several weeks.

He posts this math of denial. You post the current intractable truth.

Can you imagine what he'll do to make his calculations work when the numbers go negative? I seriously can't wait.; May 18, 2008 10:38 PM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; May 18, 2008 10:40 PM
Aunt Jean said...: RobH I'm sorry that you are fooled by some of the lies that leah comes up with.But I will give her credit she's sly about it most times but sometimes she just lays one out there.Of course that goes with the sly cracks about Hillary also. Jean; May 18, 2008 10:48 PM
suzihussein22 said...: I have seen opinions from Leah, but not lies. There's a BIG difference between the two.

That's my 3 cents' worth.; May 18, 2008 10:55 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Thanks Leah for the link to the NY Times (think the link was incomplete, but found my way - LOL).

Obama has done well now that Bush and McCain elevated him to the National platform.

The picture of that crowd gave me Hope that the USA will Change now.; May 18, 2008 11:05 PM
suzihussein22 said...: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/19/us/politics/19women.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

I would love to see a woman represent our country. But it's powder puff pieces like this that makes it sound like it won't be worth the effort. I think she's been fighting in the wrong way, but being tough and taking a stand is not playing the gender card.Holding women's rallies is. As I said before, I'm not a feminist, so I don't have an angle about this.; May 18, 2008 11:11 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Emit-

Yeah, the long URLs don't totally show up here (visually) on the thread but usually when you do copy and paste they seem to work right.

I made a tiny url for the rest of ya'll:

http://tinyurl.com/5d6czz

The photo to look at is the 2nd one down from the top.
It is an awesome photo of some of the 75,000 folks that were at the Portland Oregon rally today :)

.; May 18, 2008 11:12 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: And Leah, there is a different perspective (maybe from a helicopter) on Obama's site:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/stateupdates/gGBfgK; May 18, 2008 11:19 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: softspoken22-

You might like this article regarding 'who might be the first female president in the future':

http://tinyurl.com/5mfd98

.; May 18, 2008 11:19 PM
tmess2 said...: You know, its interesting seeing folks play with mythical numbers from the unpledged delegates without naming names, claiming that everyone yet to pick a candidate is a moderate. There is a list of the names. Going through them I recognized about 20 who are either well-known liberals, have pledged to support the winner of the pledged delegate count, have indicated that the race is over and we need to support Obama, or are positions which are vacant and will be filled in states loyal to Obama. To be particular so that folks can compare the list, Representative Honda of California, Representative Pelosi of California, Representative Jefferson of Louisiana, Representative Tierney of Massachusetts, Representative Markey of Massachusetts, Representative Kilpatrick of Michigan, Representative Kucinich of Ohio, Representative Clyburn of South Carolina, President Carter, Vice-President Gore, Bob Strauss of Texas, Senator Harkin of Iowa,Christine Pelosi of California, Donna Brazille of the District of Columbia, Pilar Lujan of Guam, the vacant Chair and Vice-Chair of Hawaii, a vacant position in Illinois, Mayor Kilpatrick of Michigan, the Chair and Vice-chair positions in Texas to be chosen at their upcoming convention.

Then you still have the add-ons to be named and about half of the 40 are in states in which Obama loyalists will control the selection process.

I only saw a similar number that I would think are likely to support Senator Clinton.

That means, even using Senator Clinton's best numbers, if she is relying on the moderates to save her, she needs to pick up 160 out of the 169 remaining delegates if Michigan and Florida are seated in full. If they get the half vote that they are supposed to get under the rules and the automatic delegates from those states are excluded as the rules require, Senator Clinton would need some of the people I have mentioned above to get the nomination.

So which ones of the above are the Clinton folks expecting to support their candidate?; May 18, 2008 11:31 PM
Matt said...: We have and will continue to delete posts that contain personal attacks on other readers. Please cut out the name calling and the insults. It does nobody any good. - the mgmt.; May 18, 2008 11:33 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Leah-The two names that jumped out for me are Kathleen Sebelius and Maria Shriver.; May 18, 2008 11:38 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: softspoken-

I have made my feelings known in the past that I hope Kathleen Sebelius will be on the ticket with Senator Obama. And God forbid that anything would happen to Obama then she would be the first woman 'sworn in'. We have had a FEMALE that has performed the duties of a president.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Bolling_Galt_Wilson

Edith Bolling Galt Wilson
Acting President of the United States
October 2, 1919–March 4, 1921

But as far as a woman that runs for the presidency on her own to become the first POTUS I think it will probably be someone that we haven't even heard of yet.

.; May 19, 2008 12:00 AM
themann1086 said...: Aunt Jean,

As one of those "kids", I take offense to your comment. I voted in 2004, a mere four days after my 18th birthday, in a futile attempt to put the breaks to this speeding, derailing train that is the Bush Administration. I have voted in every election since then; I got my absentee ballot for the 2008 primaries in my state; and yes, I voted for Obama, as did my 19 year old sister and my 49 year old mother.

So you can take your stereotypes and shove them.; May 19, 2008 12:11 AM
Oregon Dem said...: Wow - when Senator Obama said 30,000 at the rally ay River Front Park in Potland today I think he underestimated by 3-6,000 dang was it packed!

Driving home I thought we all needed a break from the intra party politics and thought to myself that what we needed to do was raise our children (or grandchildren in my case) to be good domocrats.

What better than a nursery rhyme to whisper to a babe heading to sleep...

Now you are all more creative for me but here is one I came up with for Obama supporters:

Hickory Dicory Dock
Senator Clinton thought the nomination a lock
The delegates ran out
and she said with a shout
God Bless our next President Barack!

and for you Clinton supporters

Hickory Dicory Dock
Senator Clinton always thought it a lock
when the voting was done
she said with some fun
I can't believe I beat that Barack!; May 19, 2008 12:13 AM
Oregon Dem said...: Matt said...
We have and will continue to delete posts that contain personal attacks on other readers. Please cut out the name calling and the insults. It does nobody any good. - the mgmt.

May 18, 2008 11:33 PM

I, for one am so glad to hear that Matt - wish there was a way to BAN abusers!; May 19, 2008 12:17 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Oregon Dem-

There were 75,000 at the Portland Obama rally today!

Look up a bit on this thread and you will see links to some photos of the rally :); May 19, 2008 12:28 AM
Aunt Jean said...: themann 1086 excuse me but you need to learn some manners. To begin I didn't say all just most and that is a proven fact. If you vote I think that's even though I believe from years of experence I believe that most not all don't vote or if they do it's not because they are informed as to the pro's and con's if you are that's great. But I also believe unless you are in the service they should change the voting age to 21 years old. Now you ask why for the simple fact they vote most [there's that word again] of the time not for the most qualified but they vote on them being a good speaker or looks or things like that. Of course there are older people that do that also too! I'm not trying to insult you just stating a fact. In case you're wondering I'm 54 years old so I believe that I've been in this world long enough to see how young adults vote considering I come from a very large family. I'm not saying that some of them are making an informed vote but most are not. To be honest teenagers and young adults are being raised with total lack of manners.; May 19, 2008 12:28 AM
Oregon Dem said...: Leah said...
MAN OH MAN!

Look at the 2nd photo down from the top on this page:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/18/obama-draws-record-crowd-in-oregon/#comment-1015698

Enough said!

- - - - - -

I am going to guess the number there was about 35 times more than any rally Senator Clinton had today - Heck there were more people (by 50% or more) than live in my whole County (Hood River County).

What a sight!; May 19, 2008 12:30 AM
Oregon Dem said...: No NO No - there was at least 75,001 (cause I was there) but I had not heard any official numbers.

WOWZA! Is that true (just got home a few minutes ago.

If 75K that is THREE times the number of folks in Hood River County.

I gotta go check and find out.

BBL; May 19, 2008 12:34 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 19, 2008 12:34 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Oregon Dem-

They said 60,000 WITHIN the gates and at least 15,000 OUTSIDE of the gates and on the water :)

I am glad you were there!
What fun!; May 19, 2008 12:37 AM
dsimon said...: Aunt Jean: sorry to disappoint you but the green paper or sheet has Hillary with more VOTES thank you. Jean

Two points. First, it's my understanding that she has more votes only if zero votes are awarded to any candidate except Clinton in Michigan (which surely does not reflect the will of the voters in Michigan) and no votes are awarded to anyone from several states that do not report raw vote totals from their caucuses. I can't see how any objective observer can see the use of such a total as anything other than deliberately misleading.

Second, there has been no justification as to why the popular vote should matter. If no reasonable candidate would spend resources getting votes that did not lead to more delegates, then it's hard to see why the total popular vote should be a relevant metric instead of the delegate count. The popular vote in the 2000 general election didn't matter because both candidates knew they were competing for electoral votes and campaigned accordingly, so I can't hold it against Bush that he didn't get more votes nationally; he wasn't trying (and neither was Gore). If the popular vote was going to be a factor from the start, the campaigns, and possibly the results, might have been very different.

So (1) Clinton isn't winning the popular vote under any fair measure, and (2) it doesn't matter who wins the popular vote because total votes was never really the point of the process and so not how the candidates planned their campaigns.; May 19, 2008 12:41 AM
Richard said...: I don't know why you Clinton supporters are freaking out about Obama, repeating talking-points right out of the Republican playbook. Neither Obama nor Clinton are "far-left liberals," nor are either of them "moderate centrists." In fact, they have nearly identical fairly progressive positions on nearly every issue. Both favor civil unions but not gay marriage, getting troops out of Iraq as soon as possible, and rolling back tax-cuts for the wealthiest Americans to pay for health care reform. Both are strong on reproductive freedom, against torture, would appoint judges who believe in privacy rights. Both oppose privatization of social security, drilling for oil in wildlife refuges, and warrantless wiretaps.

Their only main differences are that Obama doesn't propose mandating participation in his proposed health care plan (a position which I disagree with but think can hardly be called a left-wing position), and that Obama proposes engaging diplomatically with Iran and other "rogue states" that Republicans would like to scare us out of engaging. Oh, and Obama didn't buy into the ridiculous idea of a gas tax holiday. Other than that, what policy does Obama favor that Clinton does not (or vice versa)?; May 19, 2008 12:44 AM
countjellybean said...: Well I am late to the party, I see, so I don't know what was written before it was deleted. I wonder, what did Yamaka post that was worse than calling people "Joseph Goebbels"?; May 19, 2008 12:47 AM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 19, 2008 12:51 AM
Aunt Jean said...: softspoken I've never heard of Sebelius but I wouldn't vote for her because of someone backing of her and as far as Maria SHRIVER YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING NO WAY!!!!!I know besides Hillary anything is better than her. Jean

May 19, 2008 12:51 AM; May 19, 2008 12:52 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: countjellybean-

I guess we can't tell you what was deleted because then we would be saying the same things that got deleted and then the new posts would be deleted LOL.; May 19, 2008 12:53 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Richard yes they are very close [as far as what they want to do] considering Obama as repeated her words just about but that's beside the point. As far as health care yes Obama wants to make it mandatory on children. I don't know [ I could be wrong] of any insurance that you buy that only covers kids. That is what he said. Jean; May 19, 2008 12:58 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Dsimon you need to go look at the green sheet are whatever it's called she is ahead in pop. vote. Jean; May 19, 2008 1:00 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Number of delegates to secure the nomination:

OBAMA...115
Clinton 306

Number of pledged delegates needed for Obama to have the 'majority' of PDs = 15.5

.; May 19, 2008 1:00 AM
Aunt Jean said...: dsmion are you sure that they are counting those. Even if they are and I'm not sure they are she did get them did she not!!! Obama, Edwards and who the other one was choose to take their name off the ballot. Jean; May 19, 2008 1:04 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: THREE more photos from the Portland rally have been uploaded:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/stateupdates/gGBfJ8

What a wonderful day it has been :); May 19, 2008 1:04 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Oregon Dem-

* 80,000

There is an article on www.FoxNews.com that says:

....Fire officials estimated 65,000 packed into a riverside park for a spectacular afternoon rally at a sun-splashed scene on the banks of the Willamette River in Portland. They said an additional 15,000 were left outside and dozens of boaters could be seen floating in the river.

.; May 19, 2008 1:20 AM
billyjay66 said...: aunt jean

"unless you are in the service they should change the voting age to 21 years old."

You say voters should not get the vote if they choose to vote for a good speaker?

I know you are serious but hope you are not.; May 19, 2008 1:21 AM
Aunt Jean said...: billyjay66 the reason I said that if they are in the service they should be able to vote for the simple fact if they are willing to die for america thaen yes they should have all the rights as a 21 year old. I'm really not trying to insult the young people it's just that as a whole not all most are vote voting because they are informed. So for that reason I really don't want them making decisions that will affect me but not them at least for quite awhile because they are living at home and mom and dad are supporting them . So they have no idea of what it's like to stand on your own to feet. Yes I'm sure that there are mature young people that do make very sound decisions but most don't. Jean; May 19, 2008 1:30 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Everyone be sure to watch the "THE REAL McCAIN" video on the front page of DCW:

http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/

Now that is something that we should be talking about ;); May 19, 2008 1:31 AM
November Politics said...: "I really don't want them making decisions that will affect me but not them at least for quite awhile"

I can make a similar argument for why I don't want the elderly to vote; they'll soon die and wont have to live with the consequences of who they voted for President. See how silly that argument sounds?; May 19, 2008 1:37 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Leah yes I though those words sounded better with Hillary.Matter of fact much better because that is her. Jean; May 19, 2008 1:38 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: November Politics-

I agree. People say over 65 years old (when they apply for social security) should have to take a test to see if they are still mentally fit to vote. That would especially apply to McCain ;)

< tongue in cheek >; May 19, 2008 1:43 AM
Aunt Jean said...: billyjay but most of the elders mhave been here long enough to make very wise chooses [I'm not saying a few doesn't but most do. Just like they made a very wise choose to vote for Hillary because they know that she will make the best President. Now as far as young I so believe that most times they make bad chooses. I'm not saying that to be mean or ugly just a fact.Maybe you are a different type of young man I don't know. Jean; May 19, 2008 1:44 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Leah I do believe that is very insulting and totally uncalled for and unamerican. Jean; May 19, 2008 1:46 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Leah of course their are people that are under 50 that is mentally unfit to make wise chooses.My mothers mind is sharp as a tack and she is 79 years old.So for you to say that they need to be tested is more than just insulting so be careful of what you say. Jean; May 19, 2008 1:50 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Leah watch your tougue in cheek are you trying to get me riled you best watch for matt you might get deleted lol Jean; May 19, 2008 1:54 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Well folks I'm calling it a night so take care and good night Jean; May 19, 2008 1:56 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Regarding Jim Webb for V.P.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080518/ts_alt_afp/usvote

.......... one name touted to give national-security heft to the relatively inexperienced Obama. Webb's state of Virginia would also be a big prize for the Democrats to seize in November.

But the Democrat, a navy secretary in Ronald Reagan's Republican administration of the 1980s, told NBC: "At this point, no one's asking; no one's talking; and I'm not that interested."

.; May 19, 2008 1:59 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Break News - Brand New!!!

A Project of the Democratic Party

May 19th the DNC releases:

McCainPedia

http://www.mccainpedia.org/index.php/Main_Page

Now the fun begins!; May 19, 2008 2:12 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Aunt Jean,

So you favor discrimination?

Only soldiers can vote? I was raised in the Church of the Brethren. One of the tenets of that church is pacifism - no war. It has the same tenets as the Mennonites, Society of Friends (Quakers), and the Amish on pacifism. In fact, it was those four churches that brought about the conscientious objector status to the draft.

So you favor discrimination?

Only soldiers can vote? What about the person who would like to serve, but is physically unable? Maybe they have a heart defect. Maybe they have something wrong with their eyes. Maybe they are too short or too tall. Maybe they have legs that are not the same length, or missing part of an arm. But in no way do they have any problem in their brain that would affect their mental capacity to make a voting decision. Two of my uncles tried to enlist during WW II, but were turned down for physical reasons - one due to extremely flat feet, one due to tinnitus caused by a childhood ear infection. My father DID enlist in the Navy, another uncle enlisted in the Army and served in Italy.

So you favor discrimination?

Only soldiers can vote? How about the person who wants to enlist, but is a homosexual, so the military won't take them? They have all the qualifications except one - their sexual orientation is 'wrong', so they can't enlist.

Want to rethink that statement about only soldiers under 21 should be able to vote? Otherwise all you do is reinforce the opinion of many that you do not even think about the consequences of what you write.

And you reinforce the opinion of many that you don't care that you want to discriminate. And when you start to reintroduce discrimination, many countries find that the people who are discriminated against seems to keep growing and growing, more and more are considered 'verboten' and discriminated against.

Mike; May 19, 2008 2:12 AM

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