Democratic Convention Watch: Open Thread

Tuesday, April 01, 2008

Open Thread

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Who's going to win, who has a better chance against McCain, or whatever else is on your mind.

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suzihussein22 said...: Aunt Jean=Just thought I'd post real quick while the kids are getting ready for school. First, I've been looking up Sebelius's voting records. I don't care whether someone else "likes" her. She has supported education alot. Second, I'm around alot of young adults in the retail bus. The uninformed ones you hear about are the stereotypical minority. They have every right in a free country to vote.; May 19, 2008 7:19 AM
suzihussein22 said...: mike in md-Amen! We have friends who are Quakers. You can see them and their congregation protesting on the square almost every weekend. More power to em! And yes, most of my family has tried to get in the military or has been in the military. Woe is the person who would try to tell them they couldn't vote!

So who is worthy of being called more patriotic? All of the above!; May 19, 2008 7:31 AM
Ariane said...: softspoken22. - -re your name, your offer was extremely thoughtful, but I think anyone would be really oversensitive if they were offended by your name just because of how one could take its initials. After all, it's not like you are calling yourself "Schutzstaffel." Please keep your nice name. :); May 19, 2008 8:26 AM
Aunt Jean said...: softspoken I never said that they didn't have a right to vote people really should read all the post. I just said most don't vote with and informed decision. Jean; May 19, 2008 9:26 AM
Ariane said...: Ed,
Sorry i have not been here for a couple days to respond. I had seen the cactus48 link you sent before, in fact I have sent it to others. But the attachment to the myth is very strong, so the resistance to the truth is very strong - - actually I think in general American Jews are in worse denial than Israeli Jews - not surprising since they are so far removed from the facts on the ground.

But I do have sympathy for people on both sides.
You wrote:
"it is one thing for an Israeli to wish for peace, while living in a secure and prosperous place, able to go to dance clubs and Pizza parlours...."
.... yes, while at any moment those clubs and pizza parlours may be blown up ... or they may get a call that their family members have been on the way to work on a bus that was bombed - - or have been struck by a rocket if they live near the border. Israelis do go out and try to live normal lives in the face of the danger but there is a constant risk. Theres security guards at the pizza parlours and no public trashcans (bombs can be put in), etc. but they are still not safe. But I don't mean this in a sense of competitive suffering. It is no question the Palestinians in the Middle East are suffering more, suffering terribly, and it is mostly stemming from the after effects of Al Nakba and the occupation since 67 and hard line of the Israeli government and military and the actions of the settlers. But Arab governments have also been complicit in their suffering by keeping them in refugee camps and not allowing them full citizenship rights and employment. Corrupt Palestinian leaders have not helped either.

I would also point out that there are many Jewish Israelis who not only "wish for peace" but have been involved as peace activists , soldiers who have gone to prison to resist serving in occupied areas, grandmothers who go on duty to observe at checkpoints and try to prevent abuses by Israeli soldiers and help Arab civilians....I think there are more Jews involved in advocating for peace and an end to occupation, and a Palestinian state, than there are Arabs advocating a peaceful form of protest or speaking out against violence against Israeli civilians. I realise, though that some of them face retaliation from the extremists on their side if they appear to advocate anything less extreme.

I think this is very complicated and one of the difficulties is that the two sides have developed over the years two completely different narratives. The extreme versions include, on the one hand Holocaust denial (granted, that's because they see how the Holocaust was used as a justification for Al Nakba and rather than consider the tragedy of victims becoming victimizers they deny that the latter were ever victims); they also deny massacres of Jews by Arabs before '48. On the other side you get the Zionist myth of "a land without a people", denying that the Arab inhabitants even existed; denying that the Zionists ever intended to go beyond the original partition - - which is disproved by the words of former leaders of Israel ; and denying the forced expulsions.
Actually both sides go to great lengths to deny the other's history in the area.; May 19, 2008 9:31 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Mike in Maryland the reason that I say about service men and women is because of the maturity they obtain in the service. I'm sorry that you don't understand where I'm coming from. What I said is teens and young are to busy wanting to party to really watch what's going on in the news to vote an informed vote. I'm not saying all teens and young just most. In my life I have been alround hundreds of teens not only with my family, and they had no idea what was really going on. That is what I'm basing my remarks on.; May 19, 2008 9:34 AM
jpsedona said...: Aunt Jean,

Listening to you lecture people about good manners would be like listening to Rev. Wright lecture about racial unity. There's not much evidence to indicate a a knowledge or sensitivity on the topic.

You also said "most of the elders mhave been here long enough to make very wise chooses". Since I believe you're probably not a GW fan, wasn't wise elders elected him twice? There is no evidence that when it comes to voting that elders as you call them are more informed or wiser than younger voters.; May 19, 2008 9:42 AM
jpsedona said...: Yam,

Given that the SD's continue to fly off the list of uncommitted, shouldn't your fantasy math now show that she needs less than 200 SD's?

you said: "Hillary Rodham Clinton, a name known everywhere in the heart of America and the world" ... I agree is known everywhere, her problem is what she's known for...; May 19, 2008 9:52 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Ipesdona the only thing I can say to that is you must be young. Yes I do have an informed belief that is the way it is. I'm not saying that people don't make mistakes but in the rim of things I know that [been there done that ] helps a whole lot. So with the remark you made doesn't make since.As far as manners I was brought up to say yes sir and no sir and didn't argue with an adult and I sure didn't disrespect them. I was able to say what I felt but in no way was I allowed to show disrespect like the kids now days. You might not want to admit what I'm saying is true but you know it is. So you can deny it all you want but I do know how it is.Besides I never said that they make wise chooses all the time. They are not infallible but their chances of making INFORMED chooses are greater than teens and young people.The only reason someone might get offened by my statement is because there were a lot of young people that voted for Obama. That IS NOT THE REASON I'M SAYING THIS.Jean; May 19, 2008 9:55 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Ipsedona one more thing please don't conpare me to that wacko wright. In my eyes that is what he is.I'm not saying that he hasn't done some good but now he has totally lost it.When you did that I was very insulted. Jean; May 19, 2008 9:58 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Ipsedona there is one thing that I have noticed on this blog if someone is a Hillary supporter. If someone says something doesn't matter what it is they [obama supporters] seem to get rude. What I said was in no way meant as an insult it was based on a life time of knowledge and observation. Jean; May 19, 2008 10:13 AM
Bull Schmitt said...: When you start discussing voting rights, there's a very easy way to tell who you are really talking with:

The person trying to find a way to make more people eligible to vote (or increase turnout) is the Democrat.

The person trying to find ways to keep people from voting (or depress turnout) is the Republican.

Certain people making certain arguments can wear that shoe if it fits.

(Pre-emptive Bu..bu..but Florida & Michigan rebuttal: There is the small matter of the elections being *fair, where all candidates have their name on the ballot, and are allowed to campaign fully in the state in advance of the vote - particularly when your opponent is the "name recognition" candidate.)

(Further pre-emptive rebuttal: Yes, Sen. Clinton has every right to make a "popular vote" argument - based on whatever selective logic allows her to claim a victory in this metric - as well as the "electoral vote applied to primary states" argument to the remaining pool of Superdelegates. When the Supers give due consideration to these arguments and make their decision, it's expected that real Democrats begin to come together and support the party nominee, whomever it turns out to be. Don't worry, there is still going to be the better part of two months before the convention for disappointed supporters to go through the five stages of grief.); May 19, 2008 10:17 AM
dsimon said...: Aunt Jean: Dsimon you need to go look at the green sheet are whatever it's called she is ahead in pop. vote. Jean

are you sure that they are counting those. Even if they are and I'm not sure they are she did get them did she not!!! Obama, Edwards and who the other one was choose to take their name off the ballot.

It would help if you named the cite that is your source. I've Googled the info, and what I've found is the bases of my prior post. RealClearPolitics.com has several ways of calculating the "popular vote," (click on "popular vote" on the right) and the only one where Clinton is ahead is by counting zero votes for anyone except her in Michigan and by excluding four caucus states that do not report vote totals.

As for "choosing" to take names off the ballot in Michigan, the candidates did so at the request of the DNC. Moreover, I think it is ridiculous to pretend that Obama and Edwards would get zero votes in Michigan; it simply defies common sense to think that those results constitute "counting every vote" to represent the will of the Michigan electorate. There are so many problems with the Michigan vote that I don't think any objective observer can consider the raw vote totals to constitute the result of a fairly contested election.

Third and most importantly, as I wrote before, there is little to support the argument that the "popular vote" should matter in the first place.

It seems to me that the Clinton campaign keeps changing the "proper" metric on the basis of which ones Clinton wins or could still win, not on the basis of what the candidates actually competed under.; May 19, 2008 10:18 AM
Amot said...: Aunt Jean,
honestly I prefer young people casting uniformed vote instead of only seniors going to booths. I live in a country where elders radically change the vote and for almost 20 years elect the government. Let me give few examples:

1. In my country seniors get their checks from National pensions fund. The government determines how much they get based on percentage of GNP. When a party propose to raise money for education and another one propose to raise pensions, guess which party they vote. When a party propose tax cuts for business and working people, they vote against. Free healthcare for seniors - yes, free healthcare for all - no. They want one thing - raise of pensions and don't care of anything else...

2.When it comes to discrimination you can count on elders. 90% are sexists (including most women), 95% are xenophobs, 99% are racists, 99.99% are homophobs. In my country Hillary would have a zero chance and Barack - negative one.

If I had to chose between my 10yo cousin and my 85yo grandfather I would delegate voting powers to my cousin. She has more objective vision of the world than my grandfather has.

Someone here used to say: Ignorance is bliss! I agree!!!

Trust me on this, I don't think American elders are that ignorant, but I guess if you cut my percentages by 1/3 you will get the real situation in USA. I am glad you have caucus system applied for some election since it gives more power to the politically active and working people.

Seniors should be entitled to calm and untroubled life and not get involved in setting the course of the country. I believe that people in the range 30-60yo are those that care the most about the country and had the best vision.

One more thing - less than 1/3 of the young people vote. I think that group are the thinking people. If you had mandatory voting (several EU countries do), political landscape would be radically changed (in Dems favor). In that case you could argue that young people should not vote!; May 19, 2008 10:21 AM
jpsedona said...: Aunt Jean,

Youth may be inexperience, but age is not wisdon. Respect is earned. You desire respect, but because of your behavior on this site you've earned little. You denigrate those who hold a different opinion and then expect others to grant you respect and deference. Perhaps showing by example might be a good start.; May 19, 2008 10:25 AM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 19, 2008 10:35 AM
Martin said...: Isn't it pretty obvious that the reason Aunt Jean doesn't want young people voting is because young people are coming out in massive numbers for Obama? If Hillary was winning the young vote, Aunt Jean would want the voting age lowered to 14.; May 19, 2008 10:35 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Ipsedona by that remark you are young. If you think that I have shown disrespect on this blog you had better look around because I'm not the one that keeps it going. That is the whole problem if you are not an Obama supporter then you are treated like dirt by some on this blog and if you can't see that I'm sorry. Yes age DOES give you wisdom. I have to totally and I do mean totally diagree with you on that statement.If you don't mind me asking you know my age how old are you? Jean; May 19, 2008 10:37 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Martin I see you have come up with anough stupid comment leave me alone. You can believe what you want to but even if it was Hillary [I might not admit it] would feel the same way. Jean; May 19, 2008 10:40 AM
JayW said...: Aunt Jean,

Your post about people between the ages of 18 - 21 not being able to vote unless they are in the military is just plain outrageous.

Young people, as opposed to older people, have the ability to listen to all of the options and change opinions based upon the best information. Older people have often already formed opinions that are out of touch with the new reality of today. Older people are often stuck in their ways and vote based on history and past feelings. You know what they say, you cant teach an old dog new tricks.

Even you Aunt Jean... a Clinton supporter claiming that you wont vote for Obama when he gets the nomination. Why is that silly lady? Their policies are practically the same. You state "I have a deep down sense about him... I dont trust him..."
What are you, a gypsy? Seriously, maybe people like you shouldnt be allowed to vote.

I think the young people have the ability and the right to make an informed decsion. At least the majority of them vote based on issues... ulike you, for whom it is obviously a popularity contest.; May 19, 2008 10:42 AM
jpsedona said...: CQ Politics has their projections for Kentucky. They estimate a +15 delegate margin for Hillary.

Clinton Headed for Sure but Hollow Victory in Kentucky; May 19, 2008 10:46 AM
JayW said...: Aunt Jean.
You are delusional.
Age doe not give you wisdom.
All age has given you is a false sense of being better than everyone else.

Wisdom is defined as: having gained knowledge, experience, discretion, and intuitive understanding, along with a capacity to apply these qualities well.

By the above definition, you have no wisdom. Some of the 18-21 year olds that you dont want to vote have an abundance of wisdom though... kind of strange isnt it Aunty.; May 19, 2008 10:47 AM
ed iglehart said...: Ariane, Namaste

Thanks for your reply. I agree with almost everything you write. The inconveniences of needing security for pizza parlours and such and the actual level of threat (the qassam missiles are unbelievably ineffective) are miniscule compared to the inconvenience of living three or more generations in refugee camps.

"Arab governments have also been complicit in their suffering by keeping them in refugee camps and not allowing them full citizenship rights and employment"

This may be true, but these people have a right to return to their homes and lands which is clearly laid out in UN resolutions. If they give up their status as refugees, it may prejudice that right, even though the chances of it ever being honoured are vanishingly small.

Israel, of course, defies/denies that right, and cannot afford to honour it, since that would mean an end to a Jewish majority, and thus presents an "existential threat" to the "Jewish state". From the Israeli point of view, al Nakba was an essential.

The main Cactus48 site has a poem from W H Auden, from which,

I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do Evil in return.

Perhaps the greatest tragic irony is that in response to the Holocaust, the Jews themselves became ethnic cleansers.

(This echoes the cycle of abuse within families, whereby the abused become abusers in turn)

When will it end?

Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
-ed; May 19, 2008 10:49 AM
billyjay66 said...: aunt jean

You said: " I just said most don't vote with and informed decision." Now there is one point of agreement we have.

But if by some means the government were to be able to adjust voting based on "you are too young", "you are in the service - that's Ok" or you are "ill informed - you are out"........ what a small leap it would be to "you don't agree with the (current) government and your vote is challenged."

After all George Bush said before he was inaugurated. "Being president would be a lot easier if this were a dictatorship... and I am the dictator"
You are sharing your views and your are telling us why poorly informed voters irritate you.
My take is as little different. Voters get information but hold to their old knee jerk beliefs. Getting voters to THINK would be revolutionary!.; May 19, 2008 10:50 AM
jpsedona said...: Aunt Jean,

you said: "Yes age DOES give you wisdom"

Incorrect again. Age should bring wisdom. Life experience means nothing if you don't learn from it.

you said: "Ipsedona by that remark you are young."

Jean, wrong again. But you make a habit of assuming and being wrong. Is that wise?

Age also apparently doesn't ensure maturity.; May 19, 2008 10:53 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Amot it might not be best in your country but this is America and different rules apply. There is no way I would trust anyone to make a sound decision for me under 30 even more so 18 to 21. You are saying 1/3 of the young people are making an informed choose. I TOTALLY TOTALLY disagree with you more like 1/10 if not less.About the caucuses those are not for the politically active.It's a disgrace. Jean Bull I really find your statement insulting I am not and I repeat AM NOT A REPUBLICAN I don't care how many times you say it. Jean; May 19, 2008 10:53 AM
Ariane said...: themann 1086,
It is great that you are voting and so many other young people are becoming politically informed and active. I do think that the stereotype of youth not bothering to vote has changed in a major way and anyone that thinks that November will be the old story of apathetic or lazy youth is in for a big surprise.

But then I was disappointed at the rude remark at the end of your post. Matt and Oreo are cracking down on personal insults on here. So if you get a bit out of control in typing a reply, be sure to edit before you actually click "publish your comment" otherwise it may get deleted.; May 19, 2008 10:54 AM
Amot said...: Aunt Jean,
the same rules apply, just the division is not so drastic! Do you want to challenge me about following statements regarding people 65+yo:
- 60% are sexists (insluding at least 25% of the women);
- 65% are rasicts (including black racists);
- 66% are homophobs.

I don't really know how many xenophobs are out there since most people don't know what xenophob is...

You want a prove - check WV!; May 19, 2008 11:03 AM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 19, 2008 11:04 AM
jpsedona said...: Aunt Jean

you said: "There is no way I would trust anyone to make a sound decision for me under 30 even more so 18 to 21."

Thomas Jefferson was just 33 when he penned the Declaration of independence. Several signers were under the age of 30. Good thing these youngsters were intelligent AND wise.; May 19, 2008 11:05 AM
Aunt Jean said...: ipsedona what am I assuming about your age? All I said was that your statement sounded like it came from someone young. I don't know if you are or not.I agree with you that I should of said that age should give you wisdom I worded it wrong sorry.But that doesn't show a sign of lacking wisdom.No age doesn't ensure maturity I do believe that with time that most people learn from their bad chooses. I don't think that the young have had the chance to gain that kind of maturity in most cases. Jean; May 19, 2008 11:08 AM
Anonymous said...: Amot said...
Aunt Jean,
honestly I prefer young people casting uniformed vote instead of only seniors going to booths. I live in a country where elders radically change the vote and for almost 20 years elect the government. Let me give few examples:

1. In my country seniors get their checks from National pensions fund. The government determines how much they get based on percentage of GNP. When a party propose to raise .........

Amot, This is likely the most irrelevant post you've made.

Meddle somewhere else. We value wisdom and experience in America.
We value the passion, innovation,
and dreams of youth.

BTW, what is "Your Country"?; May 19, 2008 11:12 AM
Dilbuck said...: In reply to Aunt Jean... your comments are disturbing. The "youth" of America does not deserve to vote. How offensive... As a democrat you should favor the youth to vote since the majority of us vote Democrat.

Now I know you are all huffy because the youth are not supporting YOUR candidate, but get off your high horse and come back to reality. I won't stoop as low as you to completely negate an entire voting block's intelligence, and you won't hear me criticize the older Americans for supporting Senator Clinton because I will not attack people based on their choice of a candidate as I believe that both are great candidates.

The time for the youth and the older voters to come together is now. If you are a democrat, now is the time to work with the "youth" because we are taking an interest in politics and our country. We hear every day how we don't care, or how a majority live at home...etc. Well the time is now. Hop on board the Dem express because, for the first time in history, the youth of America is mobilized.; May 19, 2008 11:13 AM
Aunt Jean said...: ipedsona the young back then was a lot more mature and also the young was more mature at an younger age when I was young. Now I have to admit that way back then a person matured a lot younger then they did when they were my age.To compare the young from todays society to the young when the Declaration of Independence was is NO COMPARISON none what so ever. Jean; May 19, 2008 11:15 AM
Amot said...: Obama is now tied with McCain in Ohio.; May 19, 2008 11:16 AM
Richard said...: 1) Scuttlebutt is that Obama has offered to transfer some funds to Clinton's campaign to repay third-party creditors and help her fund-raise to pay off her personal debt if she will drop out of the race before May 31. Haven't seen it in the MSM yet.

2) I see that nobody has yet been able to come up with a single policy difference between Clinton and Obama that would justify labeling her "moderate centrist" and him "far-left liberal." Hmmm.; May 19, 2008 11:20 AM
Aunt Jean said...: dsimon even though I believe you know where I was talking about. It is THE GREEN PAPERS ---2008 PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARIES, CAUCUSES, AND CONVENTION. OK JEAN; May 19, 2008 11:26 AM
Amot said...: Jim,
"We value wisdom and experience in America.
We value the passion, innovation,
and dreams of youth."

I can't help myself not noticing you don't say elder people are the ones with wisdom and experience... And is that you (you and Aunt Jean) who "value the passion, innovation,
and dreams of youth" but don't want them to vote and don't trust them? Aunt Jean is fellow Texan, isn't she? Or after all 'we' is just a handful of people?; May 19, 2008 11:27 AM
Anonymous said...: Amot said...
Obama is now tied with McCain in Ohio.
Amot, Kinda a cherry pick. Clinton LEADS McCain by seven in the same poll.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html; May 19, 2008 11:27 AM
JayW said...: Hey Aunt Jean.

Here is an article that TOTALLY proves you wrong regarding the youth (18-21) about not having the proper capacity to vote.

A quote from the article:

"Intellectually, American 16-year-olds are as advanced as the adult population. Their reasoning and decision making techniques are the same as those of adults. Psychologically, adolescents suffer the same rates of mental illness as the adult population. In light of such findings, why does is the belief in adolescent incompetence and irrationality of teens still so prevalent? Dr. Offer presents several possible reasons in his many books and articles on the subject of adolescence:

Many studies of adolescents have been based on populations of disturbed adolescents, the ones most likely to be available to psychiatrists for observation and research. Studies of normal adolescents, who are not in treatment for psychological disturbance, have supported Dr. Offer's findings.
Adults may have their own need to perceive teenagers as less capable and more volatile than they really are, to justify their continued authority over them, or for other reasons. "Adults' own fears and urges," Offer states, "may interfere with their ability to correctly perceive what teenagers are really like."
Psychological studies may be influenced by societal influences and trends. Dr. Offer cites a study of bias in psychological articles published over the past 100 years, in which researchers found that in times of economic depression, adolescents were portrayed as "immature" and "psychologically unstable", whereas in wartime, the focus was on the competence of adolescents."

http://www.asfar.org/zine/inaugural/truth.html; May 19, 2008 11:30 AM
Anonymous said...: Amot,
BTW, what is "Your Country"?; May 19, 2008 11:30 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Jim thanks I couldn't have said it better. Jean; May 19, 2008 11:31 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Well folks I have to run my nephew to the doctor see you later. Jean; May 19, 2008 11:31 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Jayw sounds like an insane person that wrote that piece. That is such BULL THAT IT IS INSANE. LOL LOL LOL LOL There is a difference between learning and maturing then doing. JEAN; May 19, 2008 11:35 AM
Dilbuck said...: I can't believe the gall of some people to consider young Americans second class citizens...; May 19, 2008 11:37 AM
jpsedona said...: Aunt Jean,

Your arguments about excluding the vote for 18-21 year olds sounds an awful lot like the types of arguments against giving women the vote during the suffrage movement.

Just a reminder that YOU got to vote before you were 21 because of a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT passed in 1971. The 26th amendment...; May 19, 2008 11:38 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Richard are you saying that now obama is trying to pay Hillary off to quit. What a joke. Jean; May 19, 2008 11:39 AM
Aunt Jean said...: ipsedona not trying to insult but most 18 year olds when I was that age were more mature than they are now days I had been supporting myself for almost 3 years. So that doesn't hold hot water. Got to go talk about this later .Jean; May 19, 2008 11:42 AM
JayW said...: Aunt Jean,

Your comments show beyone a shaddow of a doubt how pertinacious and lacking in wisdom you really are.; May 19, 2008 11:45 AM
JayW said...: Richard said:
"Scuttlebutt is that Obama has offered to transfer some funds to Clinton's campaign to repay third-party creditors and help her fund-raise to pay off her personal debt if she will drop out of the race before May 31. Haven't seen it in the MSM yet."

That is a true statement. The only reason HRC is still in the race is to try and recoup her debt... remember all the money she loaned her campaign? The only way she can pay herself back is to raise that money while she is in the primary/nomination process. If she quits before earning the money back, she can not use future money or money raised for the general election to pay herself back. Obama has offered to cover her debt from his campaign money if she goes quietly into the night.

Not a bad strategy. I would donate money if I knew it would get rid of her. Maybe even extra is she takes Aunt Jean with her when she goes.; May 19, 2008 11:50 AM
Anonymous said...: Amot,
BTW, what is "Your Country"?; May 19, 2008 11:50 AM
ed iglehart said...: Apologies if I'm wrong, JP, but my guess is that you're closer to my age than to Jean's. Somehow you seem like another silver surfer (though I'm likely to be a baldie befor a greyhair)

Salaam, etc.
ed; May 19, 2008 11:51 AM
Amot said...: Jim,
sorry to be rude, but WHO CARES ABOUT HILLARY ANYMORE? I am only interested how the Dems nominee is polling against the GOP nominee. Hillary is less important than Nader now!
About my country - read some old posts, I think you can, can't you?; May 19, 2008 11:52 AM
themann1086 said...: Shorter Aunt Jean: Only people who vote the way I want them to should have the right to vote. LOL LOL LOL LOL

Ariane,

I thought "shove your stereotypes" was a fairly tame version of my actual thoughts. I really have zero tolerance for ageist crap, and my first draft of that comment was, er... well "rude" would be an understatement. I wanted to express my outrage politely.; May 19, 2008 12:04 PM
Bull Schmitt said...: Peoples, peoples...

Speaking as someone at (or at least close to) Aunt Jean's age demographic.. let me tell you young ones something that might reflect on some of us who want y'all to stay off our lawns ;)

Back during the height of the Vietnam war, CBS came out with a new program "The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour". It was fodder to get crushed by then-ratings giant "Bonanza". Only their satirical look at the war, President Nixon and racism won them the youth demographic. You can argue that the Smothers Brothers were the template that Lorne Michaels used to craft SNL in 1975.

One feature of the show I recall is a sign they kept on the stage which read "Don't Trust Anyone Over 30". That was the mindset of the Boomer generation growing up, the turbulent 60's, Kent State, the '68 Convention in Chicago...

Circumstances (a writer's strike) brought the Smothers Brothers back to network television in 1988, the height of the Reagan revolution. The time of Michael J. Fox in "Family Ties" reflecting how the next generation had largely rejected revolution, and bought into conservatism. The Smothers' kept the satirical humor, and just updated that old sign - on the new show it read "Don't Trust Anyone Under 30".

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Here's the beginning of an article from November, 2007:

The political pollster Peter D. Hart probably didn't mean to send shivers up the spines of baby boomers when he told NBC this month that the current Democratic presidential frontrunner "Hillary Clinton really is Richard Nixon, circa 1968." Hart, whose decades-long client list includes former vice president Hubert Humphrey (the Democrat that Nixon defeated for the White House), could have added that Senator Clinton is Nixon on steroids. The junior senator of New York has made a creepy science out of the control-freak politics that Nixon pioneered: the paranoia, the doubletalk, the situational ethics and the bellicose consequences of one ego's embattled insecurity on US policy from Vietnam to Iraq.

And later down the page:

The constant drumbeat by Clinton, 60, and her campaign to tag Obama, 46, as lacking the experience to be president has turned the '08 campaign, on the Democratic primary side, into a generational war. Obama has fired back, relishing the role of enfant terrible. As the gap narrows between the two in public opinion surveys, members of Clinton's baby boom generation will be confronted with their own, perhaps final, defining moment: Will 2008 mark the final sell-out in which they confirm that they are as pigheaded as they once believed their parents to be? Or will the presidential primaries bring a generational homecoming in which they willingly pass the torch that their own elders tried to withhold from them? For the sixties generation, it's déjà vu time.

http://rmf.net/giordano11142007.html

Just some food for thought.; May 19, 2008 12:06 PM
Ariane said...: Hi Jim, Amot has mentioned before he is from Bulgaria. While naturally only American citizens may vote in U.S. elections, the entire world is affected by our choices and takes an interest in our political process, and certainly has a right to participate and comment on blogs. I do not consider that "meddling". And he has mentioned on multiple occasions that he is from another country so it is not like he is pretending to be from the U.S.

Surely you don't really think demconwatch should censor out the views of those located outside USA?; May 19, 2008 12:10 PM
jpsedona said...: Bull,

I am shocked and appalled at your Smothers Brothers diatribe without once mentioning Pat Paulson????; May 19, 2008 12:12 PM
themann1086 said...: In all this dustup over age, I forgot to mention something. Chris Bowers posted End Of The Nomination, At a Glance, detailing why the primary campaign is effectively over. He also includes the numbers of the delegates in Michigan that have already been selected and appropriates them to the candidate they have pledged to support. The key conclusion:

Even if Michigan and Florida are seated based entirely on the results of the January "primaries," which is extremely unlikely, then Obama leads by 135 delegates even without the remaining 25 Edwards delegates and 19 Michigan uncommitted delegates added to his total. There is simply no longer any path for Clinton to reach the nomination.; May 19, 2008 12:13 PM
RobH said...: Ed,

Is THAT why you're wearing a hat in that profile photo? OR are you just doing the right thing from a conservation standpoint, knowing that 75% of heat loss is through your head?

Let's see, you're 66, AJ is 54. That means you think jp is upwards of 60. I don't know if he'll respond to your query, but I say he's fairly younger (30's - 40's.); May 19, 2008 12:14 PM
RobH said...: Oh crap, now I've seen jp's familiarity w/ Pat Paulsen, I'll have to adjust, put him in his 50's.

jp: My favorite line from a Pat Paulsen comedy album regarding politicians:

Ahead of us lies the future, behinds lies....lies....lies....; May 19, 2008 12:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Ariane said...
Hi Jim,

Surely you don't really think demconwatch should censor out the views of those located outside USA?

No, I am not for censorship of any kind.
I do not like his post and his reference to "his Country", as it sounds unpatroitic.

I think you and others should read his post of May 19, 2008 10:21 AM and disavow it.

"Amot said...
Aunt Jean,
honestly I prefer young people casting uniformed vote instead of only seniors going to booths. I live in a country where elders radically change the vote and for almost 20 years elect the government. Let me give few examples:

1. In my country seniors get their checks from National pensions fund. The government ....."; May 19, 2008 12:21 PM
Ariane said...: Hey themann I have heard a lot of agism during this campaign, going both ways and I agree with you I hate the stereotyping. I have been on blogs and talked to some very well informed and articulate people and then found out they were like 17 years old.
It is wonderful to see a lot of young people making an effort to inform themselves and getting active and learning about organizing.
I just wanted to warn you so as to keep your posts from being deleted since they have been deleting a lot lately.; May 19, 2008 12:22 PM
Bull Schmitt said...: jp- In deference to Democrats of all persuasions, I left Pat Paulsen out to avoid any comparisons to largely ceremonial campaigns ;)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Well, that last post was just a bit longer than it started out to be - Off topic, can anyone tell me if there is a way to embed a link into a post here?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

What I actually started out to say, was an update on the math, for those clinging to the "It's the map, not the math" argument.

Here's the state of the race, including full seating of Florida and Michigan. I'm awarding the 55 uncommitted MI delegates to Sen. Obama, your mileage may vary..

FL/MI Plan D (for Doomsday) - (Pledged Delegates and Supers get full votes)

Obama totals
1736.5 Pledged Delegates (including the 55 MI uncommitted)
+307.5 Declared Supers
+ 20 Edwards Delegates (so far endorsing Sen. Obama 12-0)
+ 87 Projected Pledged (in KY, OR, PR, MT and SD)
+ 6 "Pelosi Club" Supers (pledged majority clinched Tuesday)
+ 25 Projected Add-ons (from States Sen. Obama won)

2182 TOTAL (2209 Needed) -> 27 non add-on Supers to go <-

27 of 211 ... Sen. Clinton now needs a 185-26 split to deny Obama the Nomination. This group of remaining Superdelegates includes
33 elected officials from states Sen. Obama won, Al Gore, Donna Brazile, 2 DNC officials from Hawai'i, 2 from Illinois, and 1 from the Virgin Islands. And another 46 DNC members from "The United States That Don't Matter™".

Sorry folks, at this point it really is the math after all.; May 19, 2008 12:31 PM
jpsedona said...: An excerpt from Hillary's speech from today;

"...right now more people have voted for me than have voted for my opponent. More people have voted for me than for anybody ever running for president before. So we have a very close contest. The votes, the delegates. And this is nowhere near over."

She could have added:

It's not over... not by a long shot... really. If it was over don't you think someone would have told me? When the votes are all counted, I'll be the winner. You know, I've won the big states, the battleground states, the white states, states bordering water, states under blue skies, states with pets, states with Senators & Governors, states with newspapers and some with voters who can read, states who don't raise barriers or issue ID's to illegal imigrants, farm states, rural states, states with populations, states that are between Canada and Mexico, states that have women, states that have old women, states with children, states with trees and spotted owls, states with concerns about the economy, job and money (donate to hillaryclinton.com), states with gambling and no gambling, states who care about making sure all the votes are counted, especially if other candidates weren't on the ballot... so you see, this contest is far from over.; May 19, 2008 12:32 PM
jpsedona said...: As for age, some people are older or younger than the mirror makes them out to be...; May 19, 2008 12:39 PM
ed iglehart said...: Bull,

Off topic, can anyone tell me if there is a way to embed a link into a post here?

like this?
xx
ed; May 19, 2008 12:40 PM
Amot said...: Jim,
do you know in my country they never poll about gender when they ask preferences, it is considered not important and it is. However they always poll about age!

In USA there was not a drastic difference between the vote of 30-40 yo and 65+ yo in GE in their preferences about President. But now there is difference and large gap in the race for nominee. I don't know if that is the first time generation gap occurs in the nomination process, but it looks like most of you have to argue about that. I trust the experience but let me ask:
Who knows more about the mortgage crisis - 40yo or 65yo? Who faces it? Whose children go to school and college? 40yo's or 65yo's? Who knows more about the current situation on the financial markets? Whose children are in Iraq or will be send there soon?

Name 3 issues seniors really care about and I will name 10 issues that working people care about!

Elders are afraid of change! USA needs change! The world needs change! That is the reason for the generation gap - working people prefer change, seniors - status quo...; May 19, 2008 12:42 PM
Bull Schmitt said...: Jim -

How in the world is anyone here supposed to disavow Amot's post about what he sees as the electoral reality in Bulgaria?

Maybe you know more about Bulgaria than the rest of us non-Amots do??

Personally, I think his inference that US seniors tend to have a bias toward candidates that support Social Security benefits is sound analysis. (And it's understandable bias to boot.); May 19, 2008 12:45 PM
Bull Schmitt said...: Thank you Ed :)

(smile not forgotten)

Update: The magic number for Sen. Obama to clinch 2029 with FL and MI fully seated is down to 25 non add-on Superdelegates with the endorsements of DNC official Dwight Pelz of WA, and Senator Robert Byrd of WV.

(I thought the old ethnically-neutral folks from West Virginia were supposed to go for Sen. Clinton?)

drip.. drip.. drip...; May 19, 2008 12:56 PM
Anonymous said...: Bull Schmitt said...
Jim -

"How in the world is anyone here supposed to disavow Amot's post about what he sees as the electoral reality in Bulgaria?"

Bull Schmitt
For starters His Country is Bulgaria, Not the USA, so he says.
Second:
He says:
"Seniors should be entitled to calm and untroubled life and not get involved in setting the course of the country."
He does not want me to have a voice.
Third I consider his Allegiancemakes his suggustions nonsense.
IMO, he probably never voted and is not A Loyal American.; May 19, 2008 1:06 PM
ed iglehart said...: Rob,

"Ahead of us lies the future, behinds lies....lies....lies...."

From another Rob,

I'm truly sorry man's dominion,
Has broken nature's social union,
An' justifies that ill opinion,
Which makes thee startle
At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
An' fellow-mortal!
............
Still thou art blest, compar'd wi' me
The present only toucheth thee:
But, Och! I backward cast my e'e.
On prospects drear!
An' forward, tho' I canna see,
I guess an' fear!

Robert Burns, R.I.P. (To a Mouse)

xx
ed; May 19, 2008 1:11 PM
Amot said...: Bull,
in my country seniors totally depend on the state, that is bad and will not change for the next 15-20 years, when each senior (born after 1960) will have 2 pensions - governmental one and a personal one. I just wanted to say that there is a reason here for them to be biased. But overall there are more conservative too and I believe the same is the situation in USA. Frankly, I didn't want to say Social Secuatity benefits are something you can use to win the senior vote in USA.

My major point was - no matter wisdom and experience (seniors have the most without doubt), elder people face less (not necessarily smaller) problems and care about less issues. Plus they tend to be more conservative when it comes to any kind of change!

In the same post I mentioned my country I also stated that in the 80's USA went on a conservative trend and now is less progressive than most advanced countries. I knew that any message for change coming form not well-known candidate will face problems. And I am proud Obama was able to deal with that and gathered so big support.

For once in my life I wish I was USA citizen in order to be able to vote for him!; May 19, 2008 1:15 PM
Yamaka said...: Hello Democrats, Good Morning.

Beautiful sunny day in Houston. I guess the afternoon is going to be bit warmer.

This is the political campaign season, we need another dose of a Satirical Conversation with the Lightweight Loony BHO Jr. Enjoy
----------------------------------

--Hello, Senator Assalamu Allakikum. How are you Sir?

YOu are in a relaxed mode! - for your Children are all preparing for the Coronation very soon!

--Allaikum Assalam. Hi Yamaka, my man!

Well, you are right. We have this festive mood in our Circles - we feel we have the Nomination in the bag. That euphoria is very important. Our lives are very short, we can't dwell more on reality. We need to mostly live in a world of dreams and fantasy. When I smoke cigarette and exhale there appears the dreamland that I want to go - and take my Children along with me for a ride: a place that Jim Jones took his Children away in a distant land of Gayana!

Yamaka, coming back to the REAL world. We are exposed to the tireless campaign by Hillary and her supporters: She will win very big in KY and PR. In the remaining 3 States I may do little better. I may get a maximum of 85 PDs out of the remaining 189. She will get nearly 104 our of 189 Ds outstanding. My nightmare is what if she leads in the Popular Vote after June 3?

In 2000 GE, Gore won the PV and lost the election by just one EV to Dumb Dubya. The country went to dogs. Most of the American Electorate is mighty angry about it. The same thing could very well happen that I lead barely in the pledged delegates but lag in PV!

At this minute, there are still 251 SDs undeclared, most probably all of them are Hillary leaning moderates. Most of the Liberal gang is already committed to our Suicidal Sect. In spite what my moronic supporters blather day in day out, Hillary has the Math on her side:

1912 + 104 + 200 = 2216 a few more than the REAL Hurdle of 2209.

--Sen. Indeed you are very clear about the possibility of you losing the Nomination; but your maniacal supporters and the BigMoneyBags - your Puppet Masters are already gloating that you may reach 2025 in a couple of day. What say you Sir?

--Yamaka. They are just living in Fools Paradise. How in the world we go to GE after punishing the innocent voters of FL and MI? We need the voters of all States (plus DC and PR). In my heart I know these voters DID NOT do anything wrong. Only the corrupt Party Officials at the States and at DNC royally screwed things up. They must be kicked out of the Party. We cannot kick 2.5 millions innocent voters out! That's insanity to the brim - yes, sometimes I see the Democratic Party becoming Demonic Party of Devils, who contemplate of punishing voters! I will support complete seating of ALL delegates as per the wishes of the original voters at the time of polling.

The Democratic Party of MI, the true villains in this Sorry Episode must be kicked in their belly.

Well, Yamaka, I need to run - I have to have a smoke, w/o which my brain will be very dull - many times it doesn't work right!!

Allahu Akbar Mohammed Rasoolilahi Allahu Akbar. Bye. See you soon, Insha Allah.

--Bye Senator.
_________________________________

jp:

More TDs Hillary gets merrier it is!

She is known in the heartland of America and the World as a very tough campaigner.

She CAN break open the Glass Ceiling mounted on women by the macho men for the past 50,000 years!

When she giggles the Republican Attack Machine gets a shiver in the spine: Case in point what happened to Newt Gingrich and Bob Livingston? Their entire careers got decimated because they tangled hypocritically with the Clintons!

She has been the sparring partner and the Brain Behind Maestro Bill Clinton, who gave the Paradise on Earth to all Americans.

Sure, there were minor problems, some excesses. But, the Grateful Nation always adores the Clintons for their Mega Achievements.

For, Clintons are God's Gift to America. We need them in 2008.

I know some Right Leaning anti-Women crowd cannot handle it!

Cheer, Smile and Vote for Hillary the First Woman POTUS.

:-); May 19, 2008 1:28 PM
Ariane said...: Ed,

"The inconveniences of needing security for pizza parlours..."

I'm not talking about it being bothersome to need security guards, I"m talking about the ongoing fear and psychological stress of never knowing if you're going to be blown up. (Again, I'm not trying to contest who is suffering most; I am just acknowledging the .)

That quote you gave is so sad - -and so appropriate for those who know enough about both
"Those to whom evil is done
Do Evil in return"
That is a great tragedy.
I mentioned Dan Bar-On before, a very wise Israeli psychologist who has written on displacement of aggression. Germans, Israeli Jews and Palestinians Wish to Move Beyond Victimhood

Dan and Sami Adwan, a Palestinian professor, are co-founders of PRIME, a group of Israelis and Palestinians who have worked together on some projects for education and environment. Here is a letter Dan wrote to Sami & made public last year.
A letter to Sami from Dan

Here is a link to some more writings of Bar-On
dan bar-on papers; May 19, 2008 1:29 PM
Amot said...: Jim,
I didn't say you should not be able to vote, my suggestion is that you should restrain to vote and enjoy your senior years.

One of my neighbours, 67yo man died from heart attack during party committee meeting, because he was arguing with another elder which candidate is the better one. That influenced me and my family a lot. Since then most of the elder persons in my family do not vote on purpose, leaving the choice to the younger generation. They want respect, comfort and untroubled life. 15 years ago my family was divided into generation camps and we were calling names on each other when we talked politics. Now we live in peace!; May 19, 2008 1:30 PM
Ariane said...: Oops
somehow I left off a few words

"Again, I'm not trying to contest who is suffering most; I am just acknowledging the" effect of such attacks on civilians is more than a bit of inconvenience.; May 19, 2008 1:32 PM
Amot said...: Richard,
I am loyal Democrat though!; May 19, 2008 1:34 PM
Bull Schmitt said...: Jim -

I will leave your 1:06pm post stand on its own, as I refuse to fight a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Amot -

My apologies if I misrepresented your position in trying to defend your comments. Whatever the situation in Bulgaria, in the USA Social Security has a well-deserved nickname as "The third rail of American politics" (meaning that it's so untouchable, a politician could 'kill' their career by merely talking about the subject); May 19, 2008 1:36 PM
jean said...: hey,
aunt jean I agree with some of your views and I do think you are a cool lady.
But you I do not agree that 18 year olds should not vote. People learn from their mistakes. I am surrounded by Republicans LOL.
Has anyone looked at the polls in Oregan the past few days?
Obama has gone to +4,+5 with a margin of 3-4 with 5% undecided.
If Hillary comes close things could change alot.
Supers have changed for Obama and things could change for Hillary.
The math is not good for her but things are definitly not dead for her.
It could be a whole new ballpark on Tues.
jean not aunt jean; May 19, 2008 1:46 PM
ed iglehart said...: I'm immensely amused by the idea of 'seniors' born after 1960.

;-)
ed; May 19, 2008 1:47 PM
ed iglehart said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 19, 2008 1:48 PM
Amot said...: Bull,
certainly one can use Social Security topic to wow senior voters (there are always more benefits that can be applied). Using similar approach to college tuition one can wow the youngsters. The good politician knows how to balance both (and all issues that concern the medium aged)!

However I think education in USA in not at the level it has to be. BTW it comes with the statement AJ made that youngster are less experienced today and less informed. I personally favor all proposals that will better the education (anywhere in the world). Was it not the good education would we be able to talk about energy and other matters at the level we do?; May 19, 2008 1:58 PM
jpsedona said...: Yam,

With Obama's 3 endorsements today, including former Maj. Leader Robert Byrd, he's now topped 300 SD's (excluding FL & MI). Hillary's super secret superdelegates better come to her rescue soon...

Hillary could cut into his 193 delegate lead tomorrow. But given the pattern of SD's endorsements plus 5 add-ons he's likely to get this weekend, his lead excluding FL & MI could be above 200 by next Monday. Given that, it may be a lot easier for the RBC to decide how to seat the FL & MI delgations the following Saturday.

I do think she'll finish out the 3 remaining races before she drops out.; May 19, 2008 2:18 PM
Amot said...: Ed,
I said things will change after 15-20 years. People born right after 1960 will be retiring then :)))

BTW in my country 40% of the population are seniors, just a percent or two less than the working age group...

Ed, I respect you, but you must admit most people at your age are more interested in 'Coronation Street' (or whatever soap opera is modern now, I never watched them) than they are in solar panels and Israel. Pity!; May 19, 2008 2:22 PM
RobH said...: Ed, I've been away two hours, just now saw how I blew the typing. It should have read:

Ahead of us lies
the future
Behind us lies
....lies....lies....; May 19, 2008 2:22 PM
Pablo said...: Yam,

7 minutes after your post, one of those mostly if not all Hillary leaning moderates just endorsed the skinny guy with a funny name. Cheers and smile for the winning candidate.; May 19, 2008 2:23 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Dilbuck why is it that you obama supporters always say such bull about people that has a different oppinion then you. I have never said that I thought that young people were second class people so quit putting words in my mouth. Jean; May 19, 2008 2:23 PM
ed iglehart said...: Warren Buffet has endorsed Obama!
here; May 19, 2008 2:25 PM
Aunt Jean said...: jayw you are the one lacking in wisdom think about it. Jean; May 19, 2008 2:25 PM
jpsedona said...: Tomorrow, the campaigns will need to file / release their April campaign report. The MSM indicated earlier this month that Hillary's campaign is in debt by $20 million. She also loaned her campaign money twice at the beginning of May.

I suspect that the headlines on Weds will read:

= Hillary whacks Obama in KY
= Obama coasts to victory in OR
= Obama is the pledged delegate winner
= Hillary deep in debt
= Al Gore edorses Obama
= flood of superdelegates expected to endorse Obama before the RBC meeting; May 19, 2008 2:27 PM
Aunt Jean said...: jayw get lost creep!!!!!Hillary is staying in this race because she wants to not because of anything else wake up!!!! Jean; May 19, 2008 2:27 PM
ed iglehart said...: Amot,

I don't watch TV soaps, but I do hear the longest-running bradio "soap", "the Archers"
"an everyday story of country folk" on the BBC

:-))))
ed; May 19, 2008 2:30 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Jean I just believe that most people 18 to 21 don't vote because they know what people are standing for and that is wrong. If they are going to vote they should take the time to get informed about who is running. Well I don't believe they do that so until they can show mw differently I think the voting age should be raised.It's not that I believe that they can't make an informed choose just to busy thinking about their own wants [having fun] to takethe time to be informed and that takes maturity.That's all I'm saying. I do believe like you even though it will be a hard road that Hillary can still pull this off. Jean; May 19, 2008 2:35 PM
Amot said...: Ed,
I knew for a long time that you are rara avis :); May 19, 2008 2:35 PM
RobH said...: Aunt Jean,

They will be showing you this November.

Or, when Barack Obama wins the GE, will you see that as more evidence supporting your preconcieved and hardened view? I hope not. My wish for you is that you can embrace the times nad trust, not look for arguments to decry them (the times, that is.); May 19, 2008 2:40 PM
Ariane said...: Jim,
(re Amot) "I do not like his post and his reference to "his Country", as it sounds unpatroitic."

You mean he should be for "My Bulgaria right or wrong?" He should not criticise his country to people from other countries? Your later comment that Amot, a Bulgarian, is not a "loyal American" is kind of a strange way of putting things- - he's neither a loyal nor a disloyal American. And you've already said you don't think the blog should be censored to exclude non-Americans. So I"m not sure what you were getting at there.

*********************************
"I think you and others should read his post of May 19, 2008 10:21 AM and disavow it.

"Amot said...
honestly I prefer young people casting uniformed vote instead of only seniors going to booths. I live in a country where elders radically change the vote and for almost 20 years elect the government."

Should we reject it and denounce it as well as disavow it? ;) (Sorry, couldn't resist.) OK, I do object to the idea of ANYone casting uninformed votes. And I do not agree that older people should NOT be able to vote - - good heavens they have as much right as anyone and they have issues important to them. I would oppose "only seniors going to booths" as Amot complains of OR only young people going to booths. I don't think just one age group (or one gender, or one race) should control politics.

I do think he is right that IN GENERAL older people (both men and women and different races) are more likely to be sexist, racist, homophobic etc. And in that sense I think their judgement is impaired by prejudice, just as some young adults' judgement is impaired by naiveté or inexperience. But neither of those generalizations is a reason to deny the vote to all of either group.

I can't argue the facts of what goes on in politics in Bulgaria, but I would think the rather obvious answer would be for more young and middle aged people to vote too (but maybe the demographics greatly favor the elderly?); May 19, 2008 2:41 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Jayw that is where you are misinformed I do make an informed because the presidential election is to important and I know that most young people don't I really don't care what you say you can't change my mind but you have the right to believe the way you want to.But I have been around enough 18 -21 years tomake a judgement like I do have you? Jean; May 19, 2008 2:43 PM
Aunt Jean said...: amot instead of saying rara avis why didn't you just say strange bird? Jean; May 19, 2008 2:46 PM
dsimon said...: Aunt Jean: If they are going to vote they should take the time to get informed about who is running. Well I don't believe they do that so until they can show mw differently I think the voting age should be raised.

If the concern is that some voters are uninformed, it seems to me that the "solution" would be some kind of current events test, not a blanket age requirement.

There are uninformed voters in all age groups. One could argue that since cognitive abilities deteriorate after a certain age, why not ban the elderly from voting? Or just allow those who can show they can keep up with the morning papers?

There is no "informed" test for voting at any age, young or old. And I'd think one would be hard-pressed to come up with one that would be considered fair.

But it seems to me that the 18-21 voter argument has missed a key motivation for expanding the vote to that group to begin with: that they were being drafted to fight for their country. The idea at the time was that if you're old enough to fight and die for your nation, you should have a say in how your nation is run.

Even today, 18 year olds must register with the government so that they can be drafted into the military if necessary. It would seem perverse to tell those people that they have no say on issues such as whether their nation should go to war.; May 19, 2008 2:48 PM
jean said...: hey aunt jean.
I have two teenagers who are passionate about what they believe in. These individuals are going to support us in the later years.
I live in southern ca and while everyone says we have poor education it is bull crap. If a parent takes part they have a great education.
I have two degrees and I doubt I could survive my kids Honors Classes. Their grandparents have been educators for 40 years and they think the kids work loads are nuts.
Things balance out between the old and young. That is the only way the US has grown.
If Obama gets the nomination you know he will not win.
If the "KIDS" learn from their mistakes they will grow.
In 4 to 8 years maybe even Obama will grow and become qualified.

I think Hillary will get it first.
jean; May 19, 2008 2:55 PM
Amot said...: Ariane,
yes, it is due to demographics unfortunately. I never said elders should be denied the right to vote, but there is something wrong in the system if they constitute 60% of the likely voters... That is why my country is considering mandatory voting. One example - we joined EU last year by decision of the parliament, but had we had a referendum elders would oppose it. Not based on experience (what experience is relevant to that?) but just afraid of change and attempting to protect the status quo! I wish our country was able to draw more young and middle-age people to the booths. So far the attempts are not sufficient (but there are some).

Aunt Jean,
in case you don't know 'rara avis' is used for compliment. And it doesn't mean strange, but rare, unique. I guess my Latin is better than yours!

Ed,
once again, I admire you!; May 19, 2008 2:57 PM
Anonymous said...: Ariane said...
Jim,
So I"m not sure what you were getting at there.

What I am getting at, is I think foreigners have no business telling us who should vote in our elections.

That is my opinion, which I fought to have the right express and IMO Iseriously doubt Amot ever put his life on the line for anything.; May 19, 2008 3:01 PM
RobH said...: Checkpoint:

By my count, Barack Obama is just 16 SuperDelegate endorsements away from securing the nomination on June 3.

112 to go today
-48 from KY & OR
-6 5/23-6/1 add ons
-25 PR
-17 MT & SD; May 19, 2008 3:02 PM
ed iglehart said...: Amot,

from one strange bird to another, in reference to the global/local matter:
(apologies for length)
...the word `planetary' also refers to an abstract anxiety or an abstract passion that is
desperate and useless exactly to the extent that it is abstract. How, after all, can
anybody—any particular body— do anything to heal a planet? The suggestion that
anybody could do so is preposterous. The heroes of abstraction keep gallopping in
on their white horses to save the planet—and they keep falling off in front of the
grandstand.

“What we need, obviously, is a more intelligent—which is to say, a more
accurate—description of the problem. The description of a problem as planetary
arouses a motivation for which, of necessity, there is no employment. The adjective
`planetary' describes a problem in such a way that it cannot be solved. In fact,
though we now have serious problems nearly everywhere on the planet, we have no
problem that can accurately be described as planetary. And, short of the total
annihilation of the human race, there is no planetary solution.

"There are also no national, state, or county problems, and no national, state, or
county solutions. That will-o'-the-wisp, the large-scale solution to the large-scale
problem, which is so dear to governments, universities, and corporations, serves
mostly to distract people from the small, private problems that they may, in fact,
have the power to solve.

"The problems, if we describe them accurately, are all private and small. Or they
are so initially.

"The problems are our lives. In the `developed' countries, at least, the large
problems occur because all of us are living either partly wrongly or almost entirely
wrong. It was not just the greed of corporate shareholders and the hubris of
corporate executives that put the fate of Prince William Sound into one ship; it was
also our demand that energy by cheap and plentiful.

"The economies of our communities and households are wrong. The answers to the
human problems of ecology are to be found in economy.
And the answers to the problems of economy are to be found in culture and in
character. To fail to see this is to go on dividing the world falsely between guilty
producers and innocent consumers.

"The planetary versions—the heroic versions—of our problems have attracted
great intelligence. But these problems, as they are caused and suffered in our lives,
our households, and our communities, have attracted very little intelligence."
--Wendell Berry (from What Are People For?); May 19, 2008 3:02 PM
Aunt Jean said...: amot if you really believe that I feel sorry for you. You are living in a dream world. But I do believe some of what you said so how can you think that young people that don't even support theirself care about those things Jean; May 19, 2008 3:06 PM
Martin said...: Who do we contact if we suspect someone has created duplicate accounts in a lame effort to show "support" for her own arguments? I'd like to see this person get banned from posting here if that's the case.; May 19, 2008 3:09 PM
Aunt Jean said...: amot that is the most foolish statement I have ever heard.That may be how it is in your country but not here. My major point was - no matter wisdom and experience (seniors have
the most without doubt), elder people face less (not necessarily smaller) problems and care about less issues. Plus they tend to be more conservative when it comes to any kind of change!
ot your country maybe that is how it is there but not here:::; May 19, 2008 3:11 PM
jean said...: amot,
You have got to be kidding.
People go to the polls and have NO IDEA what the propositions are about but they just check a box.
The "older people" who now have the money to pay for all the stuff want to have a say.
Many of the younger don't pay taxes,because of income, so they don't vote because they don't pay.
Now you HAVE to vote so who cares.
Mandatory voting is suicide.
jean; May 19, 2008 3:13 PM
jean said...: martin,
Get a real life. Or just pull your head out of your behind.
jean; May 19, 2008 3:15 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: As of now the total number of delegates to secure the nomination:

OBAMA 112
Clinton 306

As far as the winner of the 'majority' of Pledged Delegates Obama needs only 15 1/2 more :)

Tomorrow is going to be a wonderful day in America!

Obama '08
.; May 19, 2008 3:18 PM
RobH said...: From Sen. Byrd's endorsement today:

"Barack Obama is a noble-hearted patriot and humble Christian, and he has my full faith and support," Byrd concluded.

Sen. Byrd doesn't strike me as someone who might 'drink the kool-aid'.

Ardent HRC supporters, is there any way you can acknowlege and honor this man's opinion and see some wisdom in the choice? Or will you disparage him?; May 19, 2008 3:20 PM
jean said...: leah,
Byrd just endorsed before he died to try to correct his woderful past in the KKK.
He doesn't care.
jean; May 19, 2008 3:22 PM
Oreo said...: New Open Thread here

Comments now locked in this one; May 19, 2008 3:23 PM
jean said...: leah,
Sorry, WONDERFUL PAST.
jean; May 19, 2008 3:23 PM

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