Democratic Convention Watch: Open Thread

Tuesday, April 01, 2008

Open Thread

WE'VE MOVED! Democratic Convention Watch is now at http://www.DemocraticConventionWatch.com

Who's going to win, who has a better chance against McCain, or whatever else is on your mind.

We have decided to stop allowing anonymous comments. Not because we don't like reading what people have to say but because Blogger has introduced a new "feature" that makes you go to a second page when the number of comments go over 200.

It's very easy to set up a Google account so that you can continue commenting.

And please be excellent to one another. We do not accept name calling or any attacks on our commenters. Any objectionable comments will be deleted. Try to be civil.

Thanks!

New Open Thread here
Previous Open Thread here

2132 comments:

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Emit R Detsaw said...: greywolf, don't worry, be happy:

6-2-08 - Added DNC Jerome Wiley Segovia (VA) for Obama
- Added DNC Nancy DiNardo (CT) for Obama
- Added DNC Chris Whittington (LA) for Clinton
- Added DNC Brenda Lawrence (MI)* for Obama
- Added DNC Lu Battaglieri (MI)* for Obama
- Added DNC Irene Stein (NY) for Clinton; June 02, 2008 2:01 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: And more will be there before the end of the day.; June 02, 2008 2:02 PM
JayW said...: Ctlivewire,

First, I applaud your family members for wearing the uniform and putting their lives on the line for our country.

Of course they are making a difference in Iraq... no one has ever disputed that.

What is disputed is if we should be there in the first place. Just because the Iraqi's have a shitty situation does not mean that we have to be there for 100 years, it isn’t in our best interest.

Wouldn’t the troops that we have deployed in Iraq also be making a difference if they were helping to rebuild New Orleans? For the amount of time and money we spent in Iraq so far, we could have rebuilt New Orleans 10 times…. and done it without losing lives senselessly to roadside bombs and gunfire.; June 02, 2008 2:05 PM
greywolf said...: I am not fearful, as much as I am a realist. Realist in the fact that although I belive this will come out as many of us think, we truly have no idea what is going on in the minds of those remaining SD's. The human mind is a hard critter to predict and understand, thus my gut feeling vs my wishful feeling, it still could go the other way.; June 02, 2008 2:08 PM
greywolf said...: a new open thread. What is happening to the old one? did Oreo kill it?; June 02, 2008 2:10 PM
apissedant said...: jayw,
We made the bad situation for the Iraqis, so we have a responsibility to do something about it. We can not just abandon them. However, instead of continually dumping money into the military, into contractors, and into the goal of basically just suppressing the people, why don't we instead invest some money in rebuilding the infrastructure we destroyed? If their unemployment wasn't 50%, if they weren't starving, and without power or safe drinking water, would they not be more civil? Would they not more be more likely and more able to stand up and protect their own country?
Since the beginning of this ill-conceived war, almost no money has gone into rebuilding the country, just suppressing the citizens. This never works, and this course should be abandoned immediately.; June 02, 2008 2:13 PM
greywolf said...: some very good news for everyone...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/02/superdelegates/index.html; June 02, 2008 2:15 PM
apissedant said...: Ctlivewire,
You have expressed one of the major beliefs and desired of the people that has put us in this terrible situation in the first place. You asked for an answer to immediately fix our energy dependence and expense problem. Immediate gratification is always short lived and poorly created. The REAL solution will take time, effort, and pain on our parts. The sooner you accept this reality, the sooner we can build our nation back into what it should be. The sooner we can set up a more secure and prosperous nation for our children to live in. This is my goal. I expect and desire nothing tomorrow. I am willing to sacrifice immediate gratification to secure a better place and a better life for my child.; June 02, 2008 2:17 PM
JayW said...: apissedant,

I do agree with you that we have a responsibility to the people of Iraq for really messing their country up. But there comes a time when they (the Iraqi's) have to take some responsibility for themselves.

Iraq is going through a civil war right now... we cant stop it. And we shouldnt stop it. Every developed "first world" country has gone through a civil war. Even we did. It is a healthy natural progression to becoming a strong unified country.; June 02, 2008 2:19 PM
Oreo said...: Greywolf... it's linked to in the post; June 02, 2008 2:20 PM
greywolf said...: Kennedy is out of surgery.

no reports as to how it went but he is out of surgery.; June 02, 2008 2:20 PM
apissedant said...: jay,
You can call it a civil war, but that is not what it fully is. I don't know if you get Newsweek, but they had an article about an African city that has had 50 of their citizens go to Iraq as suicide bombers. That was just one city! Much of the violence is still coming from outside the nation.
Also, we have given them nothing to allow them to rise out of this position themselves. Many articles in Newsweek, Time, The Washington Post, and many other publications have talked about the change. Just six years ago, Shiites and Sunnis lived side by side in harmony. Now these exact same families hate each other. We bred that hatred.
I wrote a six page paper about how economic turmoil breeds civil unrest, and how people end up dividing into groups, and blaming those that are different for their problems. Those they blame are typically innocents, but it is a natural progression that nearly every society has gone through. The only way to stop the violence is to fix the economy. We destroyed it, therefore it is our responsibility to fix it.
I would be happy to forward the paper to you, and you can argue your points against it. I welcome the criticism, but I don't feel it would be appropriate to publish the whole six page argument in this forum.; June 02, 2008 2:30 PM
ctlivewire said...: JayW,

Thank your point of view and my family thanks you for the commendation.

To an extent your right. I do question sometimes why we are in Iraq but whats done is done.

America can not afford to leave unfinished business because it would cost even more on the international platform.

Do I think McCain is the answer? Not neccessarily ( because I am a Hillary supporter 100% ) but Obama's positions are weak on this front at best in office he is a puppet to more experienced hands at worst it's an open door to serious risk on domestic and national security.

You all rally against Hillary because she just won't go away no matter the odds.

Hillary supporters have trouble following Obama logic.

Some respectful Obama supporters cry unify but a good majority have come out with some of the most vile language and disrespectful actions that have ever been seen.

Truckers and Farmers were spit on , Hillary signs descimated on private property all over the blogosphere she is been called everything from Cu*t,Bit*h, who*e. Reporters have called her a Bi*ch.

When sexism is brought up everybody says where? What was said that was sexist?

It is no longer recognizable because our young women no longer find these words offensive or demeaning.

It is acceptable to speak in terms that classify women as second class citizens here for pure aesthetic value.

They don't relate to the Hillary's of the world but a strong woman does not represent what they value in my view breast implants and the newest Gucci bag.

The staunchest of Hillary supporters remember our struggles.

Lest we forget women gained their voting rights long after the first black males.

Realize Obama supporters while to african americans they felt they should not be deprived of what they feel is the first Viable black president there are women who feel we are losing our hope as well.; June 02, 2008 2:32 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: GOOD MORNING AMERICA and the World!

What a wonderful day today will be.

So what do ya'll think will be the total for the day of new supers (people) BEFORE midnight tonight?

My guess:

OBAMA 10
Clinton 4

.; June 02, 2008 2:32 PM
JayW said...: apissedant,

You are incorrect. It is a civil war.

Just because there is outside infulence does not negate the fact that it is a civil war.

The sad thing is Sadaam was the one keeping the peace. Each side was fearful of him. With him removed it is a civil war. We should let it play out, because we arent going to stop it.; June 02, 2008 2:35 PM
ctlivewire said...: JayW,

Thank you for making my point by calling Hillary a Bit*h.

This is why the Unity cry will fail because in honest debate and scrutiny the defense is name calling and more empty rhetoric.; June 02, 2008 2:36 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: greywolf-

They said on MSNBC that the doctor said that Kennedy is doing well. The surgery was supposed to have taken 6 hours but it took only 3 1/2 hours.

I am praying for him and his family.; June 02, 2008 2:36 PM
apissedant said...: jay,
Again, I invite you to read my paper outlining the history of violence and economic turmoil.
At many times during this war, it has been a majority of outsiders. I have to go, but I'll be back to argue more.; June 02, 2008 2:37 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: JayW-

That anyone would mistake a photo of OBAMA for YOU just goes to show that some folks just don't know Obama very well and those folks need to focus a bit more on what he looks like, what he stands for, what he has done in his life, etc.

OBAMA '08; June 02, 2008 2:38 PM
ctlivewire said...: Patience for process? The foundation of America lies in free will.

Hillary has 17+ Million voters some of which support her solidly.

Now you can undercut and try to diminish that fact but it is a fact no less.

Your candidate is not there yet nothing needs to be handed to him.

That is America.; June 02, 2008 2:39 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: Greywolf - you are starting to worry too much - have patience and let things follow its course the next two days and it should be over. BTW - My earlier post should have said ...she doesn't have to apparently show respect......; June 02, 2008 2:43 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: I ask myself - how long must I try to be respectful to Senator Clinton when she doesn't apparently have to show any respect for us, or Senator Obama - or the process? Respect is a two-way street! My patience meter has just about reached "overload". But I will try a little longer in hopes of unification of the Democrats - even though I am a Republican supporting Senator Obama this time.; June 02, 2008 2:54 PM
RobH said...: ctlivewire,

when I read this in your post:

"This is why the Unity cry will fail because..."

...my heart sank. We make our own destiny. If you lead with "the unity cry will fail", then it just might. If you lead with "the unity cry will succeed", then it will.

Glass half full.; June 02, 2008 2:56 PM
Martin said...: "That anyone would mistake a photo of OBAMA for YOU just goes to show that some folks just don't know Obama very well and those folks need to focus a bit more on what he looks like, what he stands for, what he has done in his life, etc."

He's not white, and that's ALL I need to know! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

...whoops, sorry. I was channeling Aunt Jean.; June 02, 2008 2:57 PM
billyjay66 said...: leah - the predictor

Won't predict a number, but I think here will be at least a couple of groups - not two or three at a time but 6-10. The California bunch? Clyburn and a bunch with him?...........

greywolf - the worry- er

Even if Clinton is equaling obama's announcements - he is zooming to the finish. Also knowing his flair for the news cycle - he is probably picking the time, maybe later this afternoon.

Here'e a hard one to predict. By next Sun how many Clinton SD's will switch to Obama?; June 02, 2008 3:02 PM
ed iglehart said...: Ant,

"Again, I invite you to read my paper outlining the history of violence and economic turmoil.

Got a link?

;-)
ed; June 02, 2008 3:08 PM
vwis said...: Leah,

You said you are pray for TK. When the chips are down you do have faith. I had already seen that. We all to often mix spirit with religion. The question is not what you believe it is rather that you believe that we are all connected in some way.; June 02, 2008 3:11 PM
Mug said...: ctlivewire wrote:

Some respectful Obama supporters cry unify but a good majority have come out with some of the most vile language and disrespectful actions that have ever been seen.
________________________________

When you make statements like this, please give some specific expamples instead of just making blanket judgements. We dealt with enough of that on the last thread.; June 02, 2008 3:14 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: ctlivewire-

Over 17 MILLION people have voted for Senator OBAMA.

If you have seen even 100 Obama supporters say things online or any other place that you don't like then that is a drop in the ocean.

Stereotyping people is not my cup of tea (and shouldn't be anyone elses) therefore no other Obama supporter is a reflection on me, what I believe, or what I stand for.

I know that the handful of Hillary supporters that have posted hateful, bigoted, sexist posts on this thread are not a true picture of the majority of HRC supporters.

We should only judge the candidates on what they do and say and not by the actions and words of others.

OBAMA '08; June 02, 2008 3:23 PM
vwis said...: Greywolf,

By adding this new link, the others have ganged up on you. You were just responding to my statement about the lack of good news. I also added that I hoped it would turn around.

It is probably good news that the Ted's surgery only took 3 1/2 hrs.
Bo was 79 and lead a full life.
Movie scenes can be rebuilt.
Oil last I checked was only up $.27. Natural Gas has settled closer to $12. (still bad)
Commodities have settled up slightly.
The Dow (last I checked) was down 160.
Obama has gained some more SDs.

It is starting to head in a better direction.; June 02, 2008 3:24 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: ctlivewire - Can I ask you a question? The policies of Senator Obama and Senator Clinton are not very far apart - but they differ tremendously from those of Senator McCain. My question is: "How can you support Senator McCain's positions that are so different from those of the Democratic Party this year?" It was not an easy decision for me to support Senator Obama after 32 consecutive years of voting straight-line republican. I don't agree with him on several issues - but he takes a position and sticks to it and I see in him a man of character who will try to reach across the aisle and get things done. To me that is what is important. President Bush promised that but it did not materialize. I used to see Senator McCain that way but since his first run for president he has become extremely political and shifted his positions to win the nomination. So in summary - I can understand how women (and you in particular) can be offended by some of the things that are said in the heat of the compaign - but I must say - Senator Clinton has been much more devisive and polarizing than any of the candidates this year. It is not her positions that I disagree with but rather how she approaches each issue that surfaces - I say it's fine to be a "fighter" but does she know when it is time to stop fighting - there are a couple of cliches that come to mind: (1) You can be a "fighter" and win the battle (s) ONLY TO LOSE THE WAR (2) No one wins when you use a "Scorched Earth" policy (ask the people of the south a very long time ago who endured General Sherman's march to the sea - he destroyed everything in his path so he could claim victory).; June 02, 2008 3:24 PM
ctlivewire said...: Well Let see on a personally level I have been called by fellow bloggers a racist , a femininazi , a Bit'h, a barren who*e ( and I won't complete the rest of that line because it was truely sickening) , also fat and cow like even though I have never posted a pic.

We are a trucking family we needless to say we have friends all over this great country.

West Virginia for example we heard personal accounts of our truckers and farmers down there being seriously disrespected when holding up and campaigning for Hillary.

Now are these the direct responsibility of the campaigner?

Absolutely not but as a Hillary supporter you get the feeling Obama supporters don't want us or think they need us.

However you don't carry the general election without us.

Alot of you say that respect is her just walking away " It is a two way street" but to Hillary supporters those who have stood with her since the beggining that would be sacrificing the respect we have given her.; June 02, 2008 3:25 PM
Meg said...: While we are all hanging out I wonder how many of the Obama supporters on this blog would vote for Hillary if she won the nomination. A lot of her supporters are threatening to jump ship, which just sounds so disloyal. Seriously, how can you be a democrat and vote for McCain?

Given that thought, would you stay with the party? Abstain? Move to Tahiti?; June 02, 2008 3:29 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: ctlivewire-

It goes both ways. There have been just as many Obama supporters that have been called names by HRC supporters. And also many Hillary supporters that have called Obama names that I won't repeat here on this website. There has been hateful things said by supporters of both candidates. But I do believe the cases of this have been in the minority seeing that 17 Million+ folks have voted for Obama and 17 Million+ folks have voted for HRC.

It is time to say enough is enough and move forward.

Now that we have a nominee ALL DEMOCRATS need to lay down their hate and biases and get behind our nominee and support him as much as possible in order to BEAT McCain in November.

This is not about the candidates this is about AMERICA and moving AMERICA forward.

We do not need McCain and his Bush policies in the White House for another 4 years.

DEMOCRATS MUST UNITE!; June 02, 2008 3:34 PM
JayW said...: Emma,

To answer your question... I actually used to support Hillary (a few years ago), but now there is no way I would vote for a ticket with her on it. I wouldnt vote for McCain either. Honestly, if HRC was on the ticket I would vote for Nader. Go ahead, crucify me (I may even deserve it) but that is honestly how I would be voting.

By the way, me being mistaken for Obama today... PRICELESS!!!!; June 02, 2008 3:37 PM
apissedant said...: ed,
Here is a link. Tell me what you think please, and don't be shy.

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=7931529&blogID=401911106; June 02, 2008 3:45 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 02, 2008 3:45 PM
Meg said...: I guess I'm thinking that somehow Obama will be able to heal some of the split. He knows how to speak to the heart of an issue (Philadelphia). When the nomination is done, there are going to be a lot of REALLY PISSED OFF women. It may be that Hillary will be the only one who can convince them to vote democratic. That will be interesting.; June 02, 2008 3:45 PM
vwis said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 02, 2008 3:45 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: JayW-

I changed my photo.

I substituted me for my favorite photo of our next President with the next First Lady ;); June 02, 2008 3:49 PM
apissedant said...: leah,
I told you quite explicitly that jay is most definitely in the photo. He is the 12 foot man wearing a cape BEHIND Obama. Why he chose to post a picture with him the in background instead of him in the foreground I will never fully understand. Silly Jay.; June 02, 2008 3:50 PM
apissedant said...: leah!
You're a black woman!!?!?!? You're having an affair with our presidential candidate!?!?!?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!; June 02, 2008 3:51 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: apissedant -

Ooops that's right - I forgot!

JayW- I think you really should change your nick here to Clark Kent or Superman and that way we would know who you really are instead of hiding behind that phony JayW alias ;); June 02, 2008 3:54 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: It matters not which of the three candidates you support. In the USA - you have that right to support either of them and the right to voice your opinion (s) (the right of free speech) but you don't have the right to trash anyone because of who they support. Having said that I would ask all of you to consider this analogy - which people tend to be the biggest jerks and cause more problems at a youth sports events - it is not the children - it is the parents cause they are SO passionate about thier children - the same happens in a campaign - supporters become so passionate in thier support of thier candidate that they forget what the final result should be - all they care is that they win or achieve thier goal - even if it is not done in a civilized manner. Maybe we should all step back and look in the mirror and ask ourselves "is that how I want to represent myself to people around me? Give it your best effort and go as strong as you can - but don't demean the candidates, the supporters or yourself by being foolish - in the end we all want what is best for the USA and sometimes there are more ways to achieve that than just our own position. Keep up the lively discussion - but stop the trash. I am as guilty as others because I want to win. OK - it is time for me to stop preaching - now I will sit back and watch what people do - it is not necessarily what they say that matters - it is thier actions!; June 02, 2008 3:55 PM
apissedant said...: emma,
I still thing a strong, experienced, intelligent, and qualified female on the ticket will be able to heal much of the wounds. I also do not think they are disastrous as the main stream media wants the wounds to appear. Too many people still don't know Obama, and over the next 5 months, they will have many opportunities to get to know him. Once they do, I am convinced that most will come to the same conclusion we have.; June 02, 2008 3:55 PM
Unknown said...: ctlivewire:

I understand your logic but disagree with many conclusions. I, from the start, never supported the war. Never believed that Iraq was a threat. Never believed we built a coalition (bought one). Then once we were there I felt we had to stay and finish business.

However over time I have altered my views. Not because its an anti-administration stance, but because its a whole lot more complictated then that.

The Reagan era was credited with bring down the USSR by forcing them to fund a war in Iraq and forcing there economy to suffer. Then the true problems with a communist government would show through. ---- Why are we falling in the same trap.

Also.... In order to properly turn things around in Iraq does not necessarily take a military force. It truely takes support from all surrounding nations. Something that we have not received since the first gulf war.

Most foriegn governments look at the US as arrogant. Always its the US way or the high way. This is not just middle eastern countries but also countries in Asia, Europe, S. America ... I travel all over the world and really get a good perspective of what people on the street see the US as and how it has changed over the years.

Having a leader that is respected by all around the globe is essential. This is not to say that Clinton could not be that person, but seeing her stance on many international issues, I can see she is not on the same page.

I fear not Obama stance on Foriegn Policy, I welcome it with open arms.; June 02, 2008 4:03 PM
jpsedona said...: With this maybe being his last day on the campaign trail, is there anyone at the Obama campaign that would WANT him to be on the trail for Obama in the Fall?; June 02, 2008 4:03 PM
Meg said...: apissed:

So he chooses a female VP, a really good female VP, probably white. Personally, I think Donna Brazile would be great, but that's probably too much for this country right now. Anyway, he chooses a woman, but he doesn't choose HRC. He doesn't even ask HRC for fear she might say yes. Wouldn't that make his angry female supporters even madder?

I don't know what to think about men who support Hillary. I know it sounds sexist, but really, what will they do?; June 02, 2008 4:04 PM
Kujo said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 02, 2008 4:04 PM
apissedant said...: emma,
Like I said, I don't think the fallout will be as bad as the MSM predicts. There is nothing wrong with him picking a female VP, because there are many female VPs more than qualified to do the job. The most important item is to not pick a female because she's female. I know that sounds almost like a contradiction, but I don't think it is. If two people are just as qualified, or nearly as qualified, and one happens to be female.... pick the female. It is best for the party, and after over 45 white male VPs, it is about time a female gets a shot at it anyways.
We will elect a female president someday, we just need a candidate who is fully qualified for the job. I honestly don't believe the one currently on the ballot is. Maybe her daughter, or maybe one of the current Governors.; June 02, 2008 4:10 PM
vwis said...: On this blog we are like a house of dogs and cats living together.

Dogs are for Obama!

Cats are for Clinton!

Can we come together?; June 02, 2008 4:13 PM
vwis said...: Jayw,
Now play nice! Check the links. It was my fifth attempt.

Oreo,
How could you start a new page well I was in the middle of this?

All,
Check it out! It is good!; June 02, 2008 4:17 PM
Meg said...: vwis: OMG too funny, especially the last one.

apissed: Chelsea?? You know one thing I like is how Obama is with the press, even the nasty, tenacious, let-me-insult-you-with-this-question press. McCain gets pissed and Chelsea wasn't particularly nice. When we do elect a woman POTUS, let's make a better choice than what we have now. Of course, I'm not a woman who feels particularly victimized. I'm not angry at how the world has treated me solely because I'm a woman. I gather there are a lot of those out there.; June 02, 2008 4:27 PM
rkw said...: Clinton spokesperson says Clinton not dropping out tomorrow. I know there are always a lot of ways to parse words, backpedal, or change your mind, but this says Clinton is not winding it up tomorrow.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/06/02/politics/fromtheroad/entry4147110.shtml; June 02, 2008 4:28 PM
apissedant said...: I don't know. I don't have the same dirty taste in my mouth from Chelsea as I do for her parents. If you've got some youtube links or stories I should read, please pass them along. It could be the lack of a bad taste is just from a lack of knowledge. MSM doesn't cover her too much.; June 02, 2008 4:30 PM
Mug said...: ctlivewire,

Thats alot to addresss but since you mentioned that you've been called a feminazi, I'll address that since I'm the one who used that term.

I was not referring to any individual, but rather a mindset by the term "feminazi."

The future of our nation requires a stronger middle class, a better world image and an end to Iraqi occupation. Republican policies have ever been the enemy of the middle class. At best, they serve the interests of the upper 20 percent on the income bracket. If the middle class really understood this, there would never be a Republican president, congressman or senator.

The reason republicans win elections is because they use "issues" to devide the middle class and destract them from the core of their policies so that people will sacrifice their financial stability in exchange for other things. They will claim to be against abortion so that the conservative middle class will vote republican. They will claim to be against gun control so that the middle class NRA supporters will vote republican. They will claim to oppose same-sex marriage so the religeous fundamentalists in the middle class will vote republican. They whittle away at the middle class, deviding us against each other but it the end, we all get played for suckers because we are only able to economically live when we could otherwise thrive.

Now getting to the term "feminazi."
If feminists unite to vote for McCain in the GE to punish Obama or the DNC or whoever else, and McCain wins the election, they have played into the hands of Republicans in yet one more way. They will infact be signing up for 4 more years of recession and thousands more dead American soldiers. I don't think that's what they really want but bitter resentment can cause people to make poor decisions and thats what the GOP is counting on.

Do we need Clinton Supporters? No!
We need American supporters. We need every democrat, regardless of who they supported in the primaries to make a mature decision in November and vote for the policies that will benefit the most Americans, regardless of race or gender.; June 02, 2008 4:30 PM
apissedant said...: mug,
I really like that post. Well stated and supported.; June 02, 2008 4:33 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Regarding a VP for Obama...

I noticed yesterday that Governor Kathleen Sebelius was on MSNBC for quite a long interview yesterday after the Puerto Rico polls closed.

I think if we see more and more of Sebelius on the TV in the upcoming weeks that that might be a clue ;)

OBAMA/Sebelius '08

p.s. Also last week I had heard that Richardson was supposed to have gone to Puerto Rico to campaign for Obama but I never heard anything about him actually going. So that was a bit strange. I guess Obama and Richardson decided otherwise when Obama was in Las Cruces last week.; June 02, 2008 4:34 PM
vwis said...: Greywolf,

After the 2004 election, Reps would openly tell Dems that they are not Christians. This election season, Obama is pushed to give up his church; a matter that he does not take lightly. I guess that proves there are some faithful in each party. The Dems are just more open to those that aren't or of different faiths or is that a stereo-type too?; June 02, 2008 4:39 PM
JayW said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 02, 2008 4:39 PM
JayW said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 02, 2008 4:43 PM
JayW said...: Mike-in-GA
You wrote:
"In the USA - you have that right to support either of them and the right to voice your opinion (s) (the right of free speech) but you don't have the right to trash anyone because of who they support."
______________________

I understand what you are getting at but you couldn't be more wrong.

Being a former member of the military, I defended this country and the freedom of every citizen of this country.

The right to free speech and the right to freedom of expression are paramount.

I, just as every member of the military, is a die-hard patriot. But that does not make those that dont support the country any less deserving. I understand that my defending the freedoms granted to Americans by the Constitution protected and allows some to burn the flag in protest. Am I a flag burner... no. Would I ever have a beer and hang out with a flag burner... no. However, I do understand that it is a persons RIGHT to burn the flag in protest if they so choose.

Similar to the right to trash anyone because of who they support. You may not like it... but it is a right of this country to be able to do so if you choose.

We, as Americans, cannot cherry pick the rights that are afforded to us by the Constitution. We may not agree with people’s opinions or the way they express themselves... but it is a RIGHT... and honestly, it is what makes America the best country in the world. FREEDOM.; June 02, 2008 4:45 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Gallup Tracking
05/29 - 06/01

OBAMA 51
Clinton 41

Obama +10.0

Needed to win nomination:

OBAMA 42.5
Clinton 200.5

Today is going quite well so far :); June 02, 2008 4:46 PM
apissedant said...: To those that like to portray America as the best country in the world,
I love my country, but I have been to other countries. I have seen international rankings, where the US continually falls further and further down in many aspects. We often land at the bottom of the industrialized nations on items like health care, best place to live, crime rates, education, and too many other major issues.
In my travels, I found a more warm and receptive audience to my complaints in other nations. I had the same right to voice my opinions, and what is more, I was never accused of being a sodomite, a racist, an anti-Christian, or unpatiotic for voicing my opinions. People listened and responded like adults, and no one punched me in the face when I was done talking (something I cannot say about freely talking in America). We are not the only free nation on the planet. We are not even the most free of the nations on the planet.

Leah,
You have spent much time in Italy, did you feel your right to free speech was infringed in anyway?

This is not to insult America, just to open American eyes to the possibility that other nations may actually teach us something about freedom and equality.; June 02, 2008 4:50 PM
Joshua said...: I am sorry but I am not feeling magnanimous toward the Clintons nor their campaign. They waged a dirty divisive and unforgivably racist campaign. I will never forgive them. I will be disappointed if anyone offers a lending hand to her or those who supported her after it became clear that she could not win. It became clear in February that Obama had beaten her. From the very first contest in January Obama has been ahead of her in delegates. And he remained ahead every day since. Never once was Hillary ahead in any measure except in divisive and graceless tactics.

Obama has beaten her in every category: endorsement among senators, governors, congressmen, elected delegates, superdelegates, popular support, money raised, etc. Yet many democrats continued to back a candidate who was accomplishing nothing but tearing down the probable party standard bearer for November.

There must be consequence for bad judgment. Elected officials who backed Clinton during the quixotic phase of her campaign should be voted out of office.; June 02, 2008 4:53 PM
vwis said...: Greywolf,

I read that the surgery when well. Keep praying for Ted and family.; June 02, 2008 4:54 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: apissedant said:"Leah,
You have spent much time in Italy, did you feel your right to free speech was infringed in anyway?"
_____

No, but then again was not 'involved' in any public protests or anything controversial either while I was in Italy. I did see 'three' different groups of peaceful protesters over the years when I was there. One was a workers protest (Rome), one was a students' protest (Naples), and one was a protest against the high fees for garbage removal (a small town in Sicily). Folks over there have the freedom of speech and the freedom to protest and nothing violent resulted from the rallies.; June 02, 2008 5:00 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Obama just now picked up one more PLEDGED delegate on the left side box, but I can't figure where it came from. Anyone know?; June 02, 2008 5:04 PM
vwis said...: Guys,

If everything goes well tomorrow. It will be a real party. What are you bringing to the party?

I'll be having a glass of cabernet sauvignon and of course I bring my usual wit. That is if I invited.

Hillary may rain on us a little, by announce she will continue her fight to Denver. I assure you that she would get too far. Members of the RBC have spoken with the media that they offered Obama the 50/50, but he extended an olive branch and said negotiate with Clinton. She and her camp would not return their calls. So they went with the MI deal. If she takes it to Denver she will probably end up with 50/50. They see as there was no fair election in MI.; June 02, 2008 5:05 PM
apissedant said...: leah,
Thanks for your timely response. I spent much less time overseas, but I saw the same basic thing. I was in France and England while in the Navy for six days a piece. In France there was a large anti-Iraq war protest, because it was about 3 months before we attacked them. The protest was peaceful, and no one attacked me as an American sailor involved in the war, and no one attacked them as opponents of it.
I spent 3 weeks in the Netherlands while visiting my wife's family. I did not see any protest, but people were more open with their views than I had ever seen in America. People were also more receptive of my views, whether they agreed with them or not, then I have ever seen in America. I was truly impressed with them. I was never personally insulted by any Dutch person based on my views. I would also like to point out that in Holland, I was the conservative voice. I am a semi-moderate liberal, and they are a very liberal country.; June 02, 2008 5:06 PM
vwis said...: Leah,

I just read that a female from MT was about to announce. She was waiting for Obama to contact her. Forget her name right now. I suspect it was her.; June 02, 2008 5:08 PM
apissedant said...: They certified Florida as if it were a fair election, but neither candidate spent any money there. If that was truly a fair election, then why do we spend a combined billion dollars on presidential elections? If that is considered a fair election, then we should be able to have an election free of money and special interest.

Ahhh... eutopia; June 02, 2008 5:08 PM
RobH said...: HUGE News out of Andrea Mitchell just now on Hardball.

1) Ickes said w/in the hour:
"It's symbolic that it began in NY and it will end in NY" (Clinton will hold her "victory" rally tomorrow night in NY.

2) As earlier reported, now confirmed, advance staff have been told to stand down.

3) Mitchell confirms 34 House members are prepared to endorse tomorrow or Weds.

4) Of course Bill said earlier today "This may be the last day I am involved in any kind of campaign....."; June 02, 2008 5:09 PM
apissedant said...: leah,
Would you do me the favor of reading my paper from the previously posted link? I respect your opinion and I would enjoy your feedback.; June 02, 2008 5:10 PM
RobH said...: Actually, when I heard thee Bill quote earlier today, I thought there was an alternate explanation...that we will hear tomorrow that she and Bill are splitting up.; June 02, 2008 5:11 PM
apissedant said...: YAY for Hillary!! Common sense prevailed and she will live on to fight another day! Hopefully she can regain the respect and admiration it took her and her husband so many years to attain! I look forward to their positive and constructive involvement in the future. Hopefully never again for president, as it was neither positive nor constructive.; June 02, 2008 5:11 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: vwis-

Good to hear about the MT super but that is not it.

The number added to the left top box was a PLEDGED delegate not a super. But thanks for the news.

apissedant- I will bookmark it and read it when I find a little time to focus on it.; June 02, 2008 5:12 PM
Joshua said...: I will never forget nor will I forgive Rep. Charlie Rangel (D-NY) for the things he said about Obama in January 2008. I will always remember what Geraldine Ferraro said. I will always remember what Bob Johnson said. I will always remember the things that Bill Clinton said. And I will never forget Hillary Clinton’s: “Hispanics will not vote for Obama,” “Hard-working Americans, white Americans, prefer me,” “Obviously Senator McCain has met the Commander-In-Chief threshold; and I have met the Commander-In-Chief. As for Obama, you have to ask him. I know he gave a speech in 2002,” “Obama is not a Muslim – as far as I know.”

I will never forget Ed Rendell's comments. Never!; June 02, 2008 5:12 PM
Dilbuck said...: For the record...

I have always been rather fond of the Clintons until the last couple of months of this primary cycle. She has used some pretty divisive tactics towards our party and that is my reason for my semi-dislike for her. I do have to say that even if something happened with Obama or heck even if she stole the election I would vote for Hillary in the general. Hillary and Obama are so close in policies and McCain is so far out there. I just think that as democrats we all need to come together and fight against McCain. If we all come together... do you want to guess how big of a crushing it would be in the GE?

FYI for the party tomorrow night I will be sitting back with some Corona and some limes. I was also invited to a Barrack Obama party tomorrow night downtown so I may go to that. I am tempted to go the the gathering in the Twin Cities as well since I am only about an hour away. If I decide to go that would by my 3rd time seeing him this primary.

I am hoping Obama picks up 5-6 more delegates this afternoon/evening and then maybe a couple of big clusters tomorrow for a total of about 20 giving him a path to the nomination with both South Dakota and Montana.; June 02, 2008 5:14 PM
Meg said...: Leah: Green papers shows anadditional PLEDGED delegate also. I have no idea. It's not PR and those no way to check against earlier versions of the chart. Somewhere something got reclaculated.; June 02, 2008 5:14 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Breaking News: Uncommitted Senate superdelegates meeting

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/06/02/breaking-uncommitted-senate-superdelegates-meeting/

.; June 02, 2008 5:16 PM
Hippolytus said...: RobH,
Thanks for the post -- that's great news!
More great news -- Sen. Kennedy is out of the operating room and says he "feels like a million bucks". Doctors are pleased; hopefully, this will be the jump start he needs for his recovery. I'm so happy he came through the operation with flying colors! I hope that he is able to address the convention -- that would be moment to remember.; June 02, 2008 5:16 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Chris Matthews just announced the Rep James Clyburn has announced for Obama

.; June 02, 2008 5:17 PM
apissedant said...: leah,
thanks

mike,
I am also angry and dissatisfied with the performance and professionalism of many of our leaders during this election cycle. I do, however, realize that people make mistakes... some make more mistakes than others. I also do realize that many of these people have made some very positive contributions to our country and our party in the past. I hope that we can bridge this divide and eventually work together.
I would quote bible scriptures about forgiveness and judgment, but I'm not a huge bible fan.; June 02, 2008 5:17 PM
Dilbuck said...: It would have to be one of the Edwards delegates wouldn't it Leah?; June 02, 2008 5:17 PM
apissedant said...: Are you in Minnesota? Do you get to vote for Al Franken?; June 02, 2008 5:20 PM
Hippolytus said...: Leah,
Love the new pic; what a handsome couple. Maybe you could be an "under secretary"! (just kidding!); June 02, 2008 5:20 PM
Squirrel said...: MSNBC have just said a group of 36 SD's will endorse Obama late tomorrow/early Wednesday.

Also CNN have announced unpledged Senators are meeting now.; June 02, 2008 5:22 PM
Meg said...: Leah:

Maybe it is the 2 Edwards delegates from FL that went back to Edwards after the RBC, though the page still says "moved back to Edwards 6/1)

Green papers still shows 6.5 for Edwards, which is the original 13, so I'm stumped.; June 02, 2008 5:22 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: To whoever it was that asked what we are bring to the party tomorrow night-

I am going to make a pitcher of Strawberry daiquiris :)

And I will probably order a pizza to be delivered - I don't like to cook on election night ;)

.; June 02, 2008 5:25 PM
RobH said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 02, 2008 5:30 PM
apissedant said...: leah,
There seems to be a pattern in your choice of drinks.; June 02, 2008 5:31 PM
vwis said...: 15 Senators are meeting to decide on their endorsements.; June 02, 2008 5:31 PM
vwis said...: Leah,

It was me that asked about the party. How about the rest of you are you all coming.; June 02, 2008 5:32 PM
RobH said...: Yes, Leah, Emma, Dilbuck,

It's 2 (1/2) delegates in FL, moved from Edwards to Obama.

GP (Yesterday) 52.5, 33.5, 6.5
GP (today) 52.5, 34.5, 5.5; June 02, 2008 5:33 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: RobH and everyone-

Thanks.

I wish DCW had a 'simple' list for the pledged delegates like they do for the supers so that it would be easier to figure out when they update the side left box ;)

But we are almost over with all of this - so it doesn't matter too much now :)

OBAMA/Sebelius '08; June 02, 2008 5:33 PM
Meg said...: The extra pledged delegate is/are the 2 from FL. GP has now been updated to show 5.0 uncommitted from FL. I think we need a new term like FTE for counting students (Full TIme Equivalent). So 2 FL delegates makes 1 SDE Super Delegate Equivalent.

I will bring stone crab claws to the party (a Florida delicacy).; June 02, 2008 5:33 PM
Joshua said...: Apissedant:

I am not upset with anyone for supporting Hillary. I am just upset that they tried to tear down a fellow democrat – especially one most likely to be the party standard bearer. The handwriting on the wall became clear in February, yet the party “leaders” did not try to tell the Clintons to stop their negative campaigning. Frankly I am happy that she stayed in till the end. It gave Obama a good test. We now know how he will handle difficult situations and now everyone in the country knows who he is. He has certainly become more “vetted” (to borrow Hillary’s January campaign slogan) than any other candidate in my lifetime. But there was no need for trying to tear Obama down. I wished that she had campaigned on her merits and strengths, and not on making her opponent unelectable by raising doubts and fear (never anything stated, just implied unknowns). I will never forgive that.

“He who the Lord has blessed, let no one curse” to quote from the Bible.
I see Joshua (biblical) in Obama.; June 02, 2008 5:34 PM
RobH said...: I'm bringing the peyote buttons and Yam.

Cr*p, I should have siad "Mushrooms and Yams"
That's the ticket!; June 02, 2008 5:35 PM
vwis said...: Ant,

Its not just about the drinks. Its about what you will contribute. I'm sure Ed will have some wonderful links. Also, invite your better-half, drinks don't have to be alcoholic.

I'm proud of those who have jumped that hurdle.; June 02, 2008 5:37 PM
vwis said...: Mike,

If she had done that then she would have probably been the best woman for the job and won.; June 02, 2008 5:39 PM
vwis said...: Emma,

They sound delicious.; June 02, 2008 5:41 PM
vwis said...: Also, remember Carter said he will endorse on June 3rd.; June 02, 2008 5:43 PM
Dilbuck said...: I can bring deviled eggs for something to eat. I make excellent deviled eggs! Although being from Wisconsin and all I should probably bring some form of cheese? I also have some venison sticks from last deer season. Non-CWD for you worriers.; June 02, 2008 5:44 PM
apissedant said...: vwis,
I will extend the invitation. I think we may visit another loyal supporter's house to see the news on MSNBC at 8.
The hard part will not be calling my Clinton supporting friends and gloating. ;); June 02, 2008 5:48 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Cheney Makes Incest Joke About West Virginians

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/02/cheney-makes-incest-joke_n_104761.html

Excerpt:

Then came the offensive punch line. Cheney explained that during the course of researching his family lineage for Lynne's memoir "Blue Skies, No Fences" last year, he learned there were Cheneys on both his father's and his mother's side of the family. There was a Richard Cheney on his mother's side, the vice president said.

"So I had Cheneys on both sides of the family and we don't even live in West Virginia," Cheney quipped.
_______
_______; June 02, 2008 5:49 PM
Hippolytus said...: Mike -- great post. I feel exactly the same way, and I'll bet a lot of others do, too.; June 02, 2008 5:52 PM
Hippolytus said...: apissedant,
I agree with what you say about gloating, which I've been guilty of and admitted. In my case, the gloating springs from anger over efforts to tear down a fellow Dem. But that's water under the bridge, and both sides need to get over it and move on. I hope that my feelings of schadenfreude will be replaced with pride and joy, and a clear eyed recognition of the battle that lies in front of us to take back the White House.; June 02, 2008 5:58 PM
Joshua said...: Hippolytus
Thanks. She is rumored to concede tomorrow in NY. If she puts her body and soul into truly and honestly repairing the bridges she burned this election, it may easy my anger a little.; June 02, 2008 6:01 PM
apissedant said...: hipp and mike,
We Obama supporters should make an honest effort to heal the wounds. Hopefully they will return the favor and we can all move on in some form of harmony.; June 02, 2008 6:05 PM
Dilbuck said...: I know at this point I am going to try to just stick with being a uniter. Hopefully we see the same from the Clinton supporters and we can all come together for the GE and get rid of the Republicans.; June 02, 2008 6:09 PM
Joshua said...: Well said, apissedant, but I don’t think Obama campaign at any time disrespected, insulted or demeaned Hillary. The rapprochement is mostly their onus. But I understand that we need them for November. However, it’s their country too. If they are willing to cut off their noses to spite their faces, then I guess they will do what they have to do.; June 02, 2008 6:12 PM
RobH said...: I wish I could get one straight answer to one straight question.

"Aunt Jean and Yam: "If your candidate directs you to vote for Obama - for the good of the country, and as a respecting of her wishes - will you?"

Could you each please answer, straight up?

Thanks in advance.; June 02, 2008 6:16 PM
Dilbuck said...: The time has come to go after McCain. I have some information for the women voters.

In 2005 McCain voted against allocating $100 million to prevent unintended and teen pregnancies to reduce the number of teen abortions.

McCain voted NO on legislation to prevent teen pregnancies by providing teens scientifically accurate information in abstinence-only programs.

McCain opposed Title X which is a family planning program.

In 2003 McCain voted against legislation to improve availability of contraceptives.

McCain opposes comprehensive sex education as he stated that he approves the president's view.

McCain supports overturning Roe vs Wade.

McCain would have signed the 2006 South Dakota abortion ban.

Much more information to come.

PS my source is from the planned parenthood website.; June 02, 2008 6:21 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Another SUPER DUPER for OBAMA!

OLYMPIA, Wash. -- Seattle attorney and Democratic National Committee member David McDonald says he is endorsing Barack Obama for the party's presidential nomination.; June 02, 2008 6:21 PM
Hippolytus said...: I look forward to the day the Yam and Aunt Jean state their willingness to put down their sabres and join hands. Yam's already sent a tentative signal that he'll do that in the coming weeks or months. I won't hold my breath waiting for the Aunt Jeans and Harriet Christians of the world, but I will tend to my own business and try to lead by example. Hopefully, their candidate will be persuasive enough to help them see what is in their own best interest, if they can't figure that out on their own. I do appreciate that they are feeling angry and raw at the moment.; June 02, 2008 6:23 PM
Dilbuck said...: Clyburn is expected to endorse tomorrow with a decent pack of supers I would imagine. I do believe Obama will be able to claim victory tomorrow night.; June 02, 2008 6:25 PM
RobH said...: Dilbuck,

It better be a DECENT pack.
By my math he has 40.5 to go with 17 likely tomorrow night.

That means at a min, he needs 24 tomorrow. Given today is 4.5 total (so far), that looks dicey.

I'd LOVE to see the whole 34 House of Reps folks referenced earlier, go in one block, but I doubt it.; June 02, 2008 6:35 PM
RobH said...: hippo,

I hear you about Yam and Jean, but I'd just love them to drop the facade for just a second and say (if my candidate says it's for the best, and I'm as allegiant to them as I appear to be , then) "YES"; June 02, 2008 6:37 PM
RobH said...: VP speculation:

HRC on the ticket is dead, dead, dead. The Vanity Fair article is going to blow up, and make EVERYBODY remember the drama.

Not happening.

IMO.; June 02, 2008 6:44 PM
countjellybean said...: I hope this doesn't come across as gloating, but I would like to indulge in a small joke at the Clinton's expense:

Hillary Clinton has fallen short.

Bill Clinton has fallen shorts!; June 02, 2008 6:46 PM
vwis said...: I just read Hillary's Plans for Tomorrow not to Concede and Why

The Clinton team doesn’t worry about hurting Obama’s prospects of winning in the fall, because they assess those prospects at zero. Always have. Obama might not win if he leads a bitterly divided party, but (in this view) he was never going to win. Not a chance. He would be smashed like an armadillo in the road* by the Republican campaign machine, and he would be just about as ready as the armadillo for what was coming.”

Now that Clinton has “no plausible chance,” Fallows writes, “she (and Harold Ickes etc) don’t need to wake up in the middle of the night and worry: Oh no! Maybe we’re paving the way for George Bush’s third term! They are sure that Obama’s nomination means exactly that, no matter what they do. So by definition they can’t be making things worse. It is like sticking pins into a corpse — you’re not really hurting it any more.

Shows you what how she thinks.; June 02, 2008 7:11 PM
ed iglehart said...: Ant,

Your link tells me that I'm no friend of yours, and therefore can't see the paper!
;-(

My email is at my profile.

Salaaaaaaami and cheese to all for the party
xx
ed; June 02, 2008 7:13 PM
vwis said...: Ed,
I knew you come through with some links and maybe some Wendell Berry.; June 02, 2008 7:16 PM
vwis said...: The article also said she is planning a small retail-campaign to get delegates and superdelegates to switch. Maybe her plane will crash.; June 02, 2008 7:20 PM
apissedant said...: ed,
I emailed you the paper, and I attempted to change the privacy settings on the page. I do not know if it worked, but hopefully it did.; June 02, 2008 7:21 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: vwis -

Where did you read that?

Do you have a link?

Thanks.; June 02, 2008 7:24 PM
ed iglehart said...: And old slime ball is at it again

Guilt by association

;-)
ed; June 02, 2008 7:25 PM
apissedant said...: vwis,
This is the link to the article in question. I believe it was published yesterday.
http://blogs.wsj.com/politicalperceptions/2008/06/02/political-wisdom-is-it-over-for-clinton%E2%80%94or-not/; June 02, 2008 7:28 PM
vwis said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 02, 2008 7:32 PM
vwis said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 02, 2008 7:34 PM
suzihussein22 said...: vwis-1:12p.m.-Try

http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/

greywolf-1:27p.m.-I thought as much.

apissedant-2:13p.m.-One of my friends(an engineer) is one of those that have been there 4 times so far to help rebuild...maybe that's a start.; June 02, 2008 7:35 PM
Yamaka said...: Hello Democrats:

I just heard that in SD Hillary has opened up a wide margin against BHO!

And, in MT she is gaining ground rapidly!!

Can Tuesday be a Game Changer?

_________________________________

vwis:

I briefly read what VF wrote about Maestro Bill Clinton.

I got the feeling that it could be the handiwork of Dee Dee!! She is doing what McClellan did to W Bush! Just to make sum bucks; notorious pigs!

About Bill getting angrier: Maybe, when people get older they get angrier. My wife says I am getting angrier than 10 years ago!

About Bill seeing Ladies: Just a baloney he got from Ken Starr and Linda Tripp!

I agree when Bill is doing so well with his Clinton Initiatives, all the wolves are salivating to get a small dirt out of it!

VF is NOT a prestigious News Magazine, IMO.

It's a haven for all the perennial losers of shoddy journalism!

Bunch of low lives!
________________________________

BHO seems to be saying good things about Hillary now!

What's happening behind the doors?

I DON'T want her to become his VP.

She is a Presidential Timber.

She must walk, and keep a low profile, in case she is stolen of the Nomination by the RBC/Credential Committee/SDs!

Let BHO go alone against McCain and get clobbered in the GE. A costly lesson to the Liberal Ideologues of the DNC and the Congress!

She WILL come back in 2012 and clinch the Trophy, as Reagan did in 1980.

Remember the Liberal LEFT WING of the Dems: None of you got elected in the past 30 years! 2008 is NOT going to be any different.

Wait and see.
_____________________________

apiss:

When women have kids and dinners to make in the evening, how could they afford to spend long hours at the polling place of the Caucuses?

Insane!

This CANNOT be a sexist statement!; June 02, 2008 7:35 PM
vwis said...: Leah,; June 02, 2008 7:38 PM
RobH said...: The undeclared Senatorial (17) and Representative (34) superdelegates who are NOT endorsing now, but may well endorse Weds. AM, are, at present, earning my enmity.

Excuse me, but what a bunch of weak-kneed sissies!

They could endorse tomorrow, and secure Obama’s nomination at the hands of the voters. But then THEY would lose their moment of being the “deciders.” They are, in one moment, being both cowardly and gaining credit for being decisive.

I read they are holding off, because “they don’t want to pound on Hillary”, “they want to give her space”, “they want to let her arrive at her own decision.”

I find these reasons to be the reasons of appeasement. Hillary is Braveheart! She has given no quarter, and sought none. She is probably mocking them right now for their sensitivity. She would not do the same. Have any of her actions in this endgame earned that soft-gloved treatment? After “hard working white voters” and the RBC “olive branch” refusal, why are we “waiting for her to decide?”

I read that the Obama campaign is “OK, whether it’s Weds. AM, or Tues night – because it draws out the story another new cycle.” Too bad, and maybe shortsighted, because vindictive Clinton supporters will always be able to say: “it was a smoke-filled, back room deal that did it, the voters didn’t, the SD’s did” even though HRC herself has been saying for weeks, “it will take the SD’s to decide.” It will still be portrayed in that camp as an inside job.

I am saddened by this indecisiveness, and positioning for advantage, at the very last minute. I wonder if my innate optimism is misguided.; June 02, 2008 7:42 PM
JayW said...: Yam...

"I just heard that in SD Hillary has opened up a wide margin against BHO!"
_________________

Who did you hear that from my little delusional friend? Did Aunt Jean call and tell you?

Seriously, your delusions aren't healthy for you. Either put down the bong/bottle or double up on the meds.

By the way... Hillary has no chance in 2012 no matter what happens. She may have to keep campaigning until then to pay back her debts... but that is about it.
Her horse faced daughter has a better shot at becoming president than she does.; June 02, 2008 7:43 PM
vwis said...: Yam,

I like the part "Bill you never have to pay the bill because your so F###ing special." Mind you it was too long.; June 02, 2008 7:44 PM
Oregon Dem said...: Yamaka:

How come tonight you started with: "Hello Democrats" amd Last night you started with "Hello Fellow Obama Supporters?"

Did you do another flip - flop.; June 02, 2008 7:45 PM
Independent Voter said...: ed? You're first link didn't work. Which slimeball are you talking about?; June 02, 2008 7:45 PM
RobH said...: Yam,

But, hey, thanks for anwering my ONE SIMPLE QUESTION, at 6:16, that requires a simple "yes, or "no".

Are you not capable of this simplest of exchanges? If Hill says "vote Obama" will you do it? "Yes" or "No"?

Two letters, three at the most.

Let's have it.; June 02, 2008 7:46 PM
ed iglehart said...: Ant,

A good paper. On a quick reading, a minor quibble: I would not characterise Hamas as "the terrorist arm of Palestinians in Israel"
1. They are resistance fighters against occupation; Only the fools on "our" side call them "terrorists"
2. They are not in "Israel"

Some on here will know that this is an area of some special interest to me. See this "primer"

I agree with your central premise to a degree, but, "It's the Ecology, stupid!"

Most of our economics is carried out with the unspoken (and unaware) misconception that The Economy contains The Environment, when the reverse is true.

Some wise words on aspects of these matters, from Wendell Berry - well, vwis asked for it ;-)

And finally, for those in need of sobering stuff, and my favourite bit of Lao Tzu

Salaaaaaaami and Guinness for all!

xx
ed; June 02, 2008 7:46 PM
JayW said...: robh...

"I read they are holding off, because “they don’t want to pound on Hillary”, “they want to give her space”, “they want to let her arrive at her own decision.”"
______________________________

It is widely speculated that HRC is near suicide due to the fact that she has run her campaign into the ground... they are out of money, momentum, and hope. I am sure that the SD's don’t want to be considered responsible for what happens. Bill Clinton has actually been placed in protective custody to prevent a murder/suicide scenario.; June 02, 2008 7:47 PM
Independent Voter said...: Robh - I must disagree with you when you said "Hillary is Braveheart!". I find this to be an inaccurate statement. She is more like Vladimir Putin.; June 02, 2008 7:49 PM
Oregon Dem said...: JayW:

To be fair to Yamaka the ARG poll out today has HRC up over BHO in SD. It may be an outlier because it says: BHO 34 HRC 60...

That is what he was quoting I am sure.; June 02, 2008 7:49 PM
vwis said...: Jayw,

Where did you hear that? After reading that last article I'd have to admit she's lost it. Lock her up and throw away the key. We need to keep her from polite society.; June 02, 2008 7:51 PM
ed iglehart said...: Sorry, but the "sobering stuff is here.
;-(
ed

And in cartoon form, it's here; June 02, 2008 7:52 PM
ed iglehart said...: Slimeball

Sorry! An extra carriage return seems to have snuck in...;-(; June 02, 2008 7:57 PM
ed iglehart said...: Bribery?

Well, two out of three ain't bad, I suppose.

xx
ed; June 02, 2008 8:01 PM
apissedant said...: ed,
Thanks for the input. The in Israel part was a typo that apparently no one else caught. Thanks for bringing it up. The terrorist part is unfortunately how our government has chosen to classify them. I believe you can tell from reading that I do not fully believe in this classification.
As for your links... I am in my educating students with disabilities class, so I was unable to read them yet. I have bookmarked them and plan to read them soon though.; June 02, 2008 8:03 PM
Kujo said...: Yamaka,

Sexist statement:

In my family I cook the dinner. I work on homework. I take care of the kids. I also work and I would have no problems making a caucus. I am a male.

Sexist is assuming that these things are a womans things.

PS. Obama is not LEFT and you are not RIGHT (on most issues if not all).; June 02, 2008 8:04 PM
Oregon Dem said...: DCW decided to add Clyburn.

Needed for nomination:

BHO: 39.5

HRC: 200.5

195.5 supers left

With HRC getting ~ 14 pledged delegates and BHO 17 pledged tomorrow that means each needs:

BHO: 11.5% of the SDs

HRC: 95.4% of the SDs; June 02, 2008 8:05 PM
jpsedona said...: Yammers!

You are now in the END OF DAYS...

The four horseman of the apocalypse...

Bill, Terry, Harold, and Howard...

Pestilence, Famine, War & Death.

Yes, the Yams the end is near... repent!; June 02, 2008 8:15 PM
greywolf said...: Just some interesing articles I thought I would pass on.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mayhill-fowler/bill-clinton-purdhum-a-sl_b_104771.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/02/cheney-makes-incest-joke_n_104761.html; June 02, 2008 8:17 PM
Hippolytus said...: Yam:
Just for old times sake, can you favor us with a (final?) recap of your "math," and tell us how Hillary is going to prevail? Want to save that post in my scrapbook.
Thanks.; June 02, 2008 8:18 PM
ed iglehart said...: This is an article from the Black American point of view about Obama's leaving his church of 20 years

Hmmmm

As I've said before, I wish Obama had had the strength to resist the apparent political necessity in this case and with regard to Israel, but I do understand, even though it diminishes him in my view.

;-(
ed; June 02, 2008 8:21 PM
jpsedona said...: Independent voter,

I honestly believe that Bill cannot help himself. He is suffering from a symptom often associated with heart bypass patients who loose a level of mental capacity.

The following article, and the NE Journal of Medicine article references,underscore that there can be as much as a 20% decline in cognitive function after 5 years.

Link Between Bill Clinton's Heart Surgery And Mental Decline

Dr. John McDougall in his article writes: "Remember, this is the president who withstood public impeachment before the entire world for his relationship with Monica Lewinski without once losing control. Now, he is easily angered by hecklers, and makes factual mistakes and racial slurs while aggressively defending his wife’s campaign for presidency. Everyone sees his mental and emotional decline, yet to date, no medical professionals have spoken out about the cause or offered help."; June 02, 2008 8:23 PM
suzihussein22 said...: ed iglehart-I'm making do with a black russian right now. Maybe I should pledge not to have a Guinness until we meet?...8:01p.m...I actually mentioned making HRC Sec. of H&HS in the V.P. thread.

OR Dem-The sweet potatoes were soo goood with salt-free seasoning, including grated orange peel.:); June 02, 2008 8:24 PM
greywolf said...: Independent....

Bill actually went as far as to say that Obama had the Priest come to Trinity and make those statments against his wife. Also had the people in the background dance and laugh aboutit. This was all obama's doing. He had them all do this.

Its in one of those articles I posted.; June 02, 2008 8:24 PM
Oregon Dem said...: Intersting AP story on Clinton being about ready to bow out. In part it said:

A top aide, Harold Ickes, stressed over the weekend that the campaign reserved the right to challenge a ruling by the convention rules and bylaws committee that he said improperly gave a handful of Michigan delegates to Obama.

But in a conference call during the day with top donors, Ickes said that would probably not happen, according to one participant who described the conversation on condition of anonymity.

Even some of her strongest supporters counseled against it.

"If one candidate has the requisite number of delegates, both pledged and super, it makes it far more difficult to make the credible argument that she stay on in the chance that some superdelegates might change their mind and endorse her later," said Hassan Nemazee, a national co-chairman of Clinton's finance committee.

Ickes also conceded that Obama was likely to reach the delegate threshold by Wednesday, and that Clinton would need some time to consider her next step.; June 02, 2008 8:31 PM
greywolf said...: A quote from BIll Clinton

"You know he didn't use a single name, cite a single source in all those things he said. It's just slimy. It's part of the national media's attempt to nail Hillary for Obama. It's the most biased press coverage in history. It's another way of helping Obama. They had all these people standing up in this church cheering, calling Hillary a white racist, and he didn't do anything about it. The first day he said 'Ah, ah, ah well.' Because that's what they do-- he gets other people to slime her. So then they saw the movie they thought this is a great ad for John McCain-- maybe I better quit the church. It's all politics. It's all about the bias of the media for Obama. Don't think anything about it."; June 02, 2008 8:32 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Yakama said: "BHO seems to be saying good things about Hillary now!"
______

Yakama-

If you had spent sometime watching some of Obama's stump speeches then you would have known that Senator Obama has always had ONLY nice words about HRC.

This goes to show that you haven't a clue about what Obama has been saying during this campaign.

OBAMA '08; June 02, 2008 8:33 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Re: Bill Clinton's statement that this will be the last campaign he will be involved in, then 'correcting' it to say he meant last primary he will be involved in -

Is he saying that IF (and that is a BIG if - I think Hitler would have been given better odds at the end of March, 1945)) Hellery were to win the nomination and the Presidency, that she will not run for re-election?

SURELY he isn't saying that!

Mike; June 02, 2008 8:34 PM
Oregon Dem said...: Softspoken:

Any left over sweet potatos?

They are soooooo much better than Yams.

Still early on the west (left) coast. Oregon has two DNC Supers that have not declared. Maybe one tonight (I know where our Sec of State is at, and can understand why he could not commit BEFORE the OR primary - but he could NOW!; June 02, 2008 8:36 PM
Independent Voter said...: jp, good point.

ed - about Obama leaving his church. Much of it had nothing to do with him leaving - "to help his campaign" - it was to keep the church from having to be under the scrutiny that they have been experiencing over the past several months. The parishioners didn't want the publicity, but "journalists" keep interrupting their hour of "worship". So in my mind it was to get the journalists to finally back off the church.; June 02, 2008 8:37 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: vwis said...

Leah,

June 02, 2008 7:38 PM

_______________________________

HUH ???
Were you going to give me that link to the article you were referring to regarding 'Hillary's plans for tomorrow and why she won't concede'.; June 02, 2008 8:39 PM
greywolf said...: Oh by the way everyone... Have you noticed that if Obama pulls just enought sd's to clinch the nomination, it leaves enought of Hillary to cross the line too. Am I the only one that has noticed that. Obama needs to pull a solid number over 27+ and the more the merrier above that number to keep Hillary out of contention. I mean we really need him to pull 50-75% of those remaining SD's to really seal this up.; June 02, 2008 8:41 PM
Independent Voter said...: grey - I saw that. Unreal, now Obama is responsible for church's scheduling of sermons and guest speakers, etc.

Mike in MD - Is he saying that IF (and that is a BIG if - I think Hitler would have been given better odds at the end of March, 1945)) Hellery were to win the nomination and the Presidency, that she will not run for re-election?

I'm going to make a correction:

Is he saying that IF (and that is a BIG if - I think Hitler would have been given better odds at the end of March, 1945)) Hellery were to STEAL the nomination and the Presidency, that she will not run for re-election?; June 02, 2008 8:41 PM
Kujo said...: gray wolf check your math again.

total delegates/2 can not be reached by both candidates

(unless you use HRC math); June 02, 2008 8:45 PM
greywolf said...: That would and could force them onto the same ticket with one the pres.. the other the vice.. Wonder who else is looking at this in the same light...? How many supers are saying.. okay lets give Obama just 26 and the rest to Hillary.. that way the both win and they have to stay on the same ticket with Obama the pres and Hillary the vp.; June 02, 2008 8:46 PM
Keryl said...: Man, I used to love Bill Clinton. Even after his personal nonsense. Really, I don't care if he's doing the whole eastern seaboard, and really, would anyone be surprised if he had dallied a little? Come on, this is Bill. He did an intern in the oval office and we still loved him. It's who he is.

However, blaming Obama for the Clinton's poor press, that surprises me. He used to have a knack for finding just the right tone. Now he's just another ranting self serving political animal.; June 02, 2008 8:46 PM
greywolf said...: Am I the only one that has a mind so devious ?; June 02, 2008 8:46 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: greywolf said: "Oh by the way everyone... Have you noticed that if Obama pulls just enought sd's to clinch the nomination, it leaves enought of Hillary to cross the line too."

_____

NO! Once Obama has 2118 there will not be enough delegates (pledged and SDs) in order for HRC to cross the line.

Only one person can get 2118.; June 02, 2008 8:48 PM
jpsedona said...: Mike in MD,

Actually Hillary's chances are the same as Hitler's was on May 1, 1945.; June 02, 2008 8:49 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: grey-

You are forgetting also the delegates that Obama will get from South Dakota and Montana.

.; June 02, 2008 8:50 PM
Keryl said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 02, 2008 8:51 PM
Keryl said...: Softspoken...don't tell Aunt Jean you're having a black russian. I think somehow that makes you a racist.; June 02, 2008 8:52 PM
jpsedona said...: grey,

They are not going to give Hillary a chance of turning a small number of delegates and stealing the nomination. They will apply a clear and concise message. If you were an unannounced Obama delegate, would YOU want to vote for Hillary?; June 02, 2008 8:52 PM
greywolf said...: okay chucks math....

remaining sd 226.5

Obama needs to win:

39.5 <17> mt/sd = 22.5 sd to seal the deal at 2118

Clinton needs to win:

200.5 <14> mt/sd = 186.5 to reach 2118

let me see

186.5
+22.5
-----
209

there are 226.5

how many of those remaining are 1/2 votes I have no idea; June 02, 2008 8:53 PM
greywolf said...: Hey your all taking the fun out of this.. Im trying to give yammer and aunt jean some hope..

should have played along with it.

gezzzzz; June 02, 2008 8:55 PM
suzihussein22 said...: I know this is off topic but I've been wanting to hear from him again for a long time-

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/race/2008/06/four-years-ago.html

To paraphrase-You see these kids going from one van to another with just black Hefty bags.

This is so heartbreaking and I did safety placement with 2 girls for almost a year last year. They never could completely trust me and I understand why. I wanted to kick the parents in the ****.; June 02, 2008 8:56 PM
Miranda said...: They are saying on MSNBC that this afternoon Sen Byrd had a fever and was lethargic and has been taken to the hospital. Hope he's okay!; June 02, 2008 8:57 PM
apissedant said...: soft,
That is great, but I think we can both agree that that has not been the main focus of our government over the past five years. More attention should be given to this serious problem.

yamaka,
Several posters here have talked about actually bringing their children to the caucus with them. Also, why must the woman be the one solely responsible for cooking dinner and taking care of the children?
Families eat out on occasion, why not take this one day every four years as an excellent opportunity to have a nice dinner on the town with your children.
I cook for my wife, and she cooks for me. I have babysat young children, and I plan to have an active role in educating and taking care of my child.
Also, your original post said it was unfair to women, not mothers, and not single mothers, just women in general. Stop said put it into the mother role.; June 02, 2008 9:00 PM
greywolf said...: at my count there are 24 remaining with 1/2 vote.. which = 12; June 02, 2008 9:01 PM
greywolf said...: so that means my math still works... check it out.. of course I have not taken into account any add ons; June 02, 2008 9:05 PM
ed iglehart said...: Harriet's Zvengali?

Must be desperate for recognition and self-validation

;-)
ed; June 02, 2008 9:08 PM
suzihussein22 said...: OR Dem-Yammy!...I mean yummy!!

keryl-lmao :)); June 02, 2008 9:09 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: There are a total of

4233 delegate (votes)

When Obama gets to 2117 there will be only 2116 left

When Obama gets to 2118 there will be only 2115 left.

Only one person can cross the line to win ;)

And the WINNER is ... DRUM ROLL ... OBAMA!

.; June 02, 2008 9:10 PM
suzihussein22 said...: apissedant-True, but to make an analogy...are we now seeing we should become assertive in government as well as personally?; June 02, 2008 9:13 PM
jpsedona said...: Since Hillary is a SD, she will be on the floor at the convention. After Obama's nomination / roll call, what are the chances that Hillary moves to make Obama's nomination unanimous?

OK, I agree, she has a better chance of taking the nomination tomorrow tahn that happening...; June 02, 2008 9:14 PM
Yamaka said...: RodentinMD:

Your Propaganda Machine is worst than the Machine of Goebells' & Co.

Don't bring the Furor imagery into this discussion!

_________________________________

Folks:

Regarding my Math:

1. Nobody has clinched the Nomination as yet.

2. The PD alone cannot give any Candidate the Nomination.

3. Now, you all know (except RodentinMD) that SDs can wobble as long as they want till the Convention late Aug.

4. Unless one of the Candidates concedes, the Nomination will be certain only at the Convention.

5. Hillary has 300K lead in Popular Votes - She got the Most of ALL votes certified by the States.

In theory, with the help of SDs, she CAN get the NOmination.

Anything is possible from tonight till Aug 24th.

Therefore, keep your Champagne in the cooler. Not today, not tomorrow either!

In the meantime, the Democratic Party is slouching towards the Soddam and Gamarrah (Rodent, please check my spelling)!

They are itching to throw Most of the Women of America under the Bus.

For what, just to pander to the Minority Candidate (Is there a pun? Maybe not)

Illegitimacy is thy name the RBC/DNC!!

Stay tuned.; June 02, 2008 9:20 PM
RobH said...: Yam,

Are you so self-indulgent that you can't amswer my single question?

This is supposed to be a dialogue, not a monologue.

"If your candidate urges you to vote for Obama, by way of respecting her wishes, will you?"; June 02, 2008 9:22 PM
suzihussein22 said...: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/06/a-strange-event.html; June 02, 2008 9:24 PM
RobH said...: Yam,

Please?

Show me your humanity?

No? Yes?; June 02, 2008 9:25 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Yakama-

YOU are the MINORITY poster on this thread ;)

Don't you worry about US women, we will be just fine WITHOUT Hillary Clinton making women look like crying, power hungry, sexist idiots.

It will now take some grown-up intelligent powerful women with integrity to get onto the public stage to erase the negative impression of a female politician. Hillary should be ashamed of herself for all the BS she has pulled during this campaign.

Signed,

A WHITE FEMALE that will never forgive HRC for her antics!

.; June 02, 2008 9:28 PM
Keryl said...: RobH - Yam may not want to answer you now, but in an earlier post he promised to support the winner, whoever it might be.; June 02, 2008 9:30 PM
RobH said...: Wow, softspoken,

seems like she ran out of gas BEFORE the finish line.

It's just....sad.

Combined with Bill's "slime" and "scumbag" comments tonight, it's kind of a fitting end.

"Not with a bang, but with a whimper."

When what you feel most for someone is pity, that's not a good thing.; June 02, 2008 9:33 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Strange, I didn't hear anybody talk about this around town today, hmm...the Straight Talk Express' must watch is Fox News too...

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080602/NEWS02/80602101

I haven't seen any signs up for him yet either.; June 02, 2008 9:34 PM
golfman8042 said...: Yamaka is back, but what happened to stopobamanow? Did I miss the post explaining that he would be on vacation?

Yamaka, unless Obama has a complete meltdown, SDs are not going to jump ship to Hillary. Her attacks, whining, and creative math has been a real thorn in the side of the Democratic party. If Obama loses, the fault will lie at Hillary's feet, and the DP will certainly not forget anytime soon. IMO, the only hope for Hillary's political future will be for her to graciously concede as soon as Obama hits 2118, and then work her butt off the next five months uniting the party behind his leadership.; June 02, 2008 9:35 PM
Oregon Dem said...: Grey:

Here is the problem with your math:

There are 195.5 SDs left
There are 31 Pledged left
Thus 226.5 total left

If you give 17 to BHO and 14 to HRC those are the 31 Pledged left.

So once you use those in the equation you cannot use them again.

HRC at most could get 195.5 SDs which is not enough...; June 02, 2008 9:36 PM
Oregon Dem said...: Grey:

left a phrase out:

If BHO gets 22.5 of those SDs the of the 195.5 left currently that leaves 173.0 which is not enough for HRC to get over the hurdle.; June 02, 2008 9:39 PM

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