Democratic Convention Watch: Open Thread

Tuesday, April 01, 2008

Open Thread

WE'VE MOVED! Democratic Convention Watch is now at http://www.DemocraticConventionWatch.com

Who's going to win, who has a better chance against McCain, or whatever else is on your mind.

We have decided to stop allowing anonymous comments. Not because we don't like reading what people have to say but because Blogger has introduced a new "feature" that makes you go to a second page when the number of comments go over 200.

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1207 comments:

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ed iglehart said...: Tyler,

I'd add Wendell Berry, who has been speaking common sense from the days of the Whole Earth Catalog right through to the present day, with the best response I have seen to 9/11 from anyone.

Loads of information

"Citizenship Papers

A Citizen’s Response to the National Security Strategy

And The Economy as Diety

And, of course, Wiki

One of the very best, in my view, and still plowing with horses and mules, while he continues to churn out poetry, fiction and essays from his study looking out over the Kentucky River, just above where it joins the Ohio

Slainte
ed; May 09, 2008 9:15 AM
ed iglehart said...: The betting
is going mad for HRC as VP! I can't believe Obama is that stupid!

Sell short into this madness and make a pile!

xx
ed; May 09, 2008 9:23 AM
jpsedona said...: Yam,

In your 9:43 post last night you included:

"That is the reason why I believe she wants the VP slot."

jp:

How did you get the belief that HRC wants the VP slot?

I didn't say that she wanted the VP slot, what you quoted was a post by Lee who was addressing a question to me.

I don't think she'll be offered the slot.; May 09, 2008 9:25 AM
ed iglehart said...: ABC News CALLS IT FOR OBAMA, saying he now has the lead in superdelegates as well as pledged delegates and popular vote.

Slainte
ed; May 09, 2008 9:32 AM
jpsedona said...: Larry Parker,

You included Janet Napolitano as a possible VP choice for Obama. I don't even see this as a remote possibility.

First, she might not be able to carry her own state. Second, Obama will want Geographic balance or a battleground state running mate; Napolitano gives geographic balance, but Richardson would be much better Western state choice. Third, IMO, she is a horrible governor who's ability to improve border security, education and support rural areas of AZ is NON-EXISTENT.; May 09, 2008 9:33 AM
Peter said...: Todays tracking poll from Rasmussen shows Obama with a 8% lead against Hillary, that is the highest lead since before Pennsylvania and includes one day of polling before the results on tuesday. The two days of polling taken after the results from tuesday shows Obama with a lead of 11%. Clitons favourable-rating is also dropping will Obamas is increasing. Clinton has a 2% higher lead against Mccain bot Obama is catching up there as well.; May 09, 2008 9:36 AM
Amot said...: Yesterday Obama talked with some Edwards pledged delegates, today Edwards himself hinted he is going to endorse soon the candidate he voter for at the primary in NC. I guess when that happens it will be efectively over no matter counting MI and FL or not :)

About polls - today and tomorrow will be announced polls taken after 6th of May, that are relevant to the current situation. I guess new WV and KY polls will show him somewhere in 20-25% margin with trend to make it even closer. Also my prediction of OR is appr. 20% margin of victory.

Ed,
I have a question for you...
Can you tell me who is the best VP choice in terms of USA - EU relationship?; May 09, 2008 9:46 AM
Dave in NC said...: Just checked in one final time before leaving town for a while.

To correct a comment that has been made a couple of times, it IS NOT unconstitutional for the pres & VP to reside in the same state.

It is only unconstitutional for the electors from that state to vote for both of them (the electors could still vote for one of them).

Therefore if the team were far enough ahead to forgo the electoral votes from the home state, then there would be no problem.

When I get back, we can debate whether Bill Clinton is legally eligible to run for VP.

I can present a very good case that he IS eligible.

Have a great week, all!; May 09, 2008 9:50 AM
Squirrel said...: As we all wait for what seems the inevitable, Obama overtakes Clinton in SD endorsements, that should sound the death knell to multi-millionaire Clinton's attempts to raise cash from low and middle income Americans to pay off her debts, another symbolic milestone will also be reached. Very soon Clinton will need 2 delegates for everyone that Obama needs!

At the moment Obama only needs 171 more delegates compared to Clinton's requirement of 328.5 delegates for the nomination, so if Obama gets another 7 delegates before Clinton gets one more then he will require only 164 delegates, that is slightly less than half those needed by Clinton. So today and the next few days will undoubtedly bring a double whammy Clinton's way!

My guessing is both will happen in the next 24-36 hours, long enough for the voters in WV to realise that a vote for Clinton is, as it has been for some time, a vote for the loser.; May 09, 2008 10:09 AM
jpsedona said...: Since Hillary's PA victory (actually 4/20 using CDW's numbers):

Hillary SD's: +14.5
Obama SD's: +28

Obama continues winning in recent endorsements by about 2-1. Considering Hillary needs to be winning SD's by more than a 2-1 rate, the trend for Hillary is not looking good.; May 09, 2008 10:15 AM
Peter said...: Bill Clinton shows his anger again. I think this and Hillary playing the race card, might help them in WV, where she is likely to win with up to 40% if nothing special happens, but she is toast in OR, MT and SD. The smartest thing she could do is to campaign in a way that doesn`t hurt Obama and continue until may 20th, that way she can exit with to wins and with som dignity.

If she and Bill continue the way they have done the last couple of week, it could get bad. If she plays ugly i really hope the supers called it. But if she calms down we might benefit from the campaign going on until the 3th of june.; May 09, 2008 10:20 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Mike in maryland yes you are right about what I've said but here lately I've tried very hard to control what I say about Obama. Ever though I have called some SD's name and I'm sorry the ones that endorce Hillary then change are sorry piece of crap. If your word isn't worth anything to me your nothing. I know that they can change their mind but that decision should be done at the convention as a group.I know that you won't believe this but I would feel that way if it happened to Obama also I might not say anything but the feeling would be the same. So No I will try and not say anything really ugly about Obama other than I don't trust him and things like that. I don't feel the same applies to SD's that turn. I hope you can understand that. If not I'm sorry.Leah is always saying watch your cursing so is there different rules between Obama and Hillary. Can people call her BITCH and and other really ugly names and that be ok but if someone calls Obama SOB that is terrible. To me there is no difference.What's good for the goose is good for the gander.So if you as Obama supporters don't ask them to reframe from cusing don't ask Hillary supporters!!! FAIR IS FAIR!!! Jean; May 09, 2008 10:21 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Squirrel yes he might have voted for Obama haven't heard that one yet but it could be true but there is one thing HE WIFE IS A HILLARY SUPPORTER and who does he sleep with every night great motivation!! Jean; May 09, 2008 10:29 AM
ed iglehart said...: Amot,

"Ed,
I have a question for you...
Can you tell me who is the best VP choice in terms of USA - EU relationship?"

I don't have any real idea, but, toi my reading, I favour Jim Webb for all sorts of reasons. The only drawback is he isn't female, but that'll have to wait.

His Military and foreign policy credentials are great; he has been opposed to the Iraq adventure from before its start, and that should go down well in Europe. He served under Reagan, so that illustrates bi-partisan capacity, and he may well bring Virginia (and other similar "Southern" states?) into play.

Clearly, he's my favourite for the job, and until the recent mad betting for HRC as Veep, he has been the consistently most favoured in the 'betting' "markets"

Slainte
ed; May 09, 2008 10:36 AM
Rorgg said...: I'm sorry the ones that endorce Hillary then change are sorry piece of crap. If your word isn't worth anything to me your nothing. I know that they can change their mind but that decision should be done at the convention as a group.

That's a pretty slim distinction there. Superdelegates are allowed to switch -- both according to Clinton and you -- but they should only switch as a group and at the convention ... which is some sort of rule that you've invented on their own ... ot they're "crap."

What other unwritten rules have you decided on for delegate behaviour, just so we know?; May 09, 2008 10:48 AM
ed iglehart said...: Meanwhile, in The Bubble Bath,

"AIG, Oil's Surge Pressure Stocks
Stocks stumbled after AIG's steep loss and capital-raising efforts suggested to some investors that there may be more damage to come from the credit crisis. Oil surged above $125 a barrel, creating another drag on equities......"

Does Obama really want to inherit this mess?; May 09, 2008 10:58 AM
Amot said...: Ed,
if he doesn't inherit it, can they ever get out of the mess? Do they have another chance to change the direction?; May 09, 2008 11:02 AM
Paul G. Hunt said...: Why did you pull the "What's wrong with CNN" entry? I was just about to comment that CNN didn't literally say McGovern was a super, and then it was gone.

I suppose this exact fact may have been a motivation for the deletion, but it's not exactly transparent, is it? You could've just added a correction.; May 09, 2008 11:04 AM
Peter said...: There are 2 important things to consider when Obama picks VP, demographics and geografy.

The female wote usually goes to democratis, so i don`t think that is the main problem when you think about uniting the party, but an older, experienced female from a swing state could do.
But I think a white experienced man from a swing-state in the souths would be de best choice.
Obama could carry several southern states if he increase his support among older people. A lot of older people trust experience more than promise og hope and change. So Obama need an experienced person by his side to attract older voters.

I seriously think Obama will change a lot of states to swing-states. He might have a shot at several states Bush won, including Colorado, Iowa, North-carolina, Missouri, Indiana and others.

I don`t think Clinton would be the best match, yes she could draw some older voters and perhapes some blue-collar voters, but she may also stop independets and republicans from voting Obama, because they hate her. Her geography is not that perfect eiter, New York is democratic either way, she might help in Arkansas. But we need someone from perhapes Virgina. So i think Webb is a perfect choice.

Putting a female candidate besides Obama might not be the best idea. If so, it should be a woman who has broad experience (actual experience, that excludes Hillary) and a reputation as tough.

Anyway we need someone who can strengthen Obamas support with older voters and whit-blue-collar voters and perhapes also the latino vote which could be extremly important in Nevada and New Mexico, two states which are in play, so Richardson could also be a good choice.; May 09, 2008 11:09 AM
Aunt Jean said...: rorgg

I've never said that I think that they couldn't or could change their mind. All I'm saying is once you endorse a person you should stick with your endorsement at least wait until she, he drops out or the convention. There was an endorsement that changed their mind in about 10 days I'm sorry but I do believe that was a plant. If you are going to endorse someone that shouldn't be a light thing it should mean something even if it's for Obama doesn't matter. The same thing about voting if you are not planning on voting for them at the convention don't endorse them. I'm not saying that someone couldn't give you good reasons not to vote for them at the convention and you change your mind now that's different. I have this thing about your word. If it's no good then it reflects on you as a person. Jean; May 09, 2008 11:18 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Peter you are starting to sound like you don't think women are smart enough or good enough for the job. Jean; May 09, 2008 11:20 AM
Richard said...: Yamaka, thank you for finally answering my question. I think your predictions for Clinton's gains in the remaining contests are a bit too generous, but I won't cavil. The real problem with your analysis is the idea that Clinton can get over two-thirds of the remaining superdelegates. I just don't believe this is possible.

Be that as it may, aren't you the one who wants every vote to count and who has argued that the votes of the people are paramount? How can you argue that Florida and Michigan must be counted as is to protect the rights of all voters and then argue that ultimately the results of the primaries and caucuses should be overturned by superdelegates? You are using two contradictory standards, combining them only because it's the only way to get the result you want.

I anticipate that you will say that superdelegates were created for just this purpose and that they are allowed by the rules to do this. But then I reply that the rules barring early primaries were created to prevent just the kind of events that happened in Michigan and Florida, and that those rules call for a minimum 50% penalty. Why should the early primary rule be abandoned in the name of democracy but not the superdelegate rule?

Again, this inconsistency can only be explained by your desire to see a specific outcome which blinds you to the realities.; May 09, 2008 11:21 AM
Aunt Jean said...: peter their are a lot of latinos that doesn't like Richardson and wouldn't vote for him. As far as experience Hillary has a heck of a lot more of it that Obama has. Jean; May 09, 2008 11:27 AM
Squirrel said...: Aunt Jean,

Well she is getting even more experience now for her CV, that of losing the Presidential nomination for the Democratic Party!; May 09, 2008 11:30 AM
jpsedona said...: Aunt Jean,

Prior to the first contest, Hillary had a tremendous level of support from long time supporters and party insiders. These people believed that not only was she the strongest candidate but also the likely nominee.

The nomination process has turned out very different from what was predicted. These long-time supporters have seen a strong candidacy by Obama. They have seen Hillary falter through Super Tuesday, lose a string of contests that she was not well prepared to contest, and ever growing concensus that Obama would win the nomination.

As party leaders, shouldn't these SD's use their best judgement? That's certainly the argument that Hillary is going to need to use in order to counter Obama's lead in pledged delegates, contests and likely popular vote lead. So, if SD's feel that what's best for the party is to select one candidate or the other, why shouldn't they change their mind?

If an Obama supporter like Daschel were to switch to Clinton, wouldn't that be a positive for her campaign? Wouldn't we be hearing about that continually?; May 09, 2008 11:30 AM
Miranda said...: Over a dozen members of Congress wrote to other Democrats touting their support for Hillary, saying she is the strongest candidate to have at the top of the ticket in the fall.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=7597

I personally don't understand why everyone from the Clinton camp and her supporters are always complaining and boo hooing about how much he is overspending her by. If she had as much money as him she would spend as much as him. Perhaps that should be flipped on her to reflect that he has the support and backing in big enough numbers to keep him in that much money. She doesn't and it is time that his money went towards fighting McCain instead of his own party.; May 09, 2008 11:34 AM
Mike Ruth said...: There is no way Hillary should be considered VP material for the President Obama campaign. She has insulted 40 states, raised racial conflict, channeled Karl Rove, and done McCain's dirty work to attack core Democratic values.

She has prevaricated, distorted, and lied. She has used threats and name-calling and threatened to destroy Democratic Party faithfuls for lack of loyalty to the Clinton family. She has pandered to the low denominator (and failed even at that).

Clinton would be a deadweight on an Obama candidacy. Her strong "negatives" would only serve to galvanize some Republican voters who otherwise might not bother to support McBush.

Clinton will be in the Senate, presumably, and can do her service to Obama by working to pass the legislation that President Obama send to the next Congress.; May 09, 2008 11:44 AM
countjellybean said...: Mike In Maryland said:

countjellybean and anyone else tracking 'leaners', here's an article from The [Baltimore] Sun

Hey, thanks. Things are very dynamic now, and others are posting their own leaners on the main page. So here is the list of leaners, using only SD's that are listed by the NYT and/or Politico:

Clinton [6]:
Burke
Langan
Malone
Mast (New)
Moss
Stapleton

None for Obama,

NYT has also moved 5 SD's from a candidate to the Uncommitted column: Bob Strauss and Umemoto for Clinton; Joe Johnson, Edward Smith, and Watkins for Obama.

.......

De Facto v. De Jure

As far as the number of delegates needed to win goes, it is obvious that the de facto magic number is 2024. If Obama gets to this number by the end of the primary season, it is over. FL and MI will be seated, and the de jure number will be 2208. However, MI and FL will be irrelevant in the actual selection of the nominee.

.....

I agree with Amot on the main page. The Edwards pledged delegates, once released, will become de facto superdelegates, albeit not de jure superdelegates. Can we get their names and start tracking their intentions?

.....

With regard to the seating of the MI and FL delegates, I believe that they should--eventually--get their full complement. I base this on two objectives: 1) motivating the Democratic parties in two states to work for Obama, and 2) preventing a recurrence in future election cycles. Obviously, the best way to motivate them is to give them all their seats.

As to deterrence, I submit that FL and MI have embarrassed themselves so much that no state will try this stunt again. None of the media outlets are including them in the delegate race. They even have Jimmy Carter treating them with less respect than Hamas. So de jure, FL and MI deserve to lose seats at the convention, but de facto they have been punished enough, enough so that there will not be a recurrence.; May 09, 2008 11:49 AM
jpsedona said...: Time is reporting that Obama has picked up another SD endorsement out of California. They have yet to identify who it is...; May 09, 2008 11:50 AM
Kennyb said...: Obama is sure to pick up at least 95 delegates in the remaning 6 primaries, so the real number he needs to add is only 76, or, if Edwards' 19 pledged delegates go to him, 57. Given that 49 superdelegates are yet to be chosen add-ons, and assuming (VERY conservatively) that only 20 commit to him right away, that's really only 37 of the currently uncommitted supers that he needs, or 1 in 7. The math really does end this thing.; May 09, 2008 11:51 AM
Yamaka said...: Good Morning Democrats:

The days are getting hotter in Houston. But green covers of the Oak and Pecon trees around us mitigate the heat to some extent!

Here is my another Satirical

Conversation with Sen BHO Jr.
__________________________________

-Good morning Senator. Assalamu Alaikum. How are you Sir?

-Alaikum Assalam. Fine, Yamaka, What's up my man? Are you doing ok?

-Well, Sen. Now you are in a relaxed mode, and all your Children are in a happy mood of celebration, as the Coronation Ball is on the roll! Tell me what is the chance that the Apple Cart can be toppled upside down?

-Yamaka, anything can happen between now and the Convention, but as eternal optimists we want to think We Are the Kings. On that basis our BigMoneyBags are proceeding. Axelrod is smiling!

Sure, your Million Dollar Girl Hillary can win 5 out of 6 remaining contests and grab atleast 122 delegates, and sure, she has the capacity to get at least 200 SDs to total up 2211 total delegates to clinch the Nomination straight up.

On the other hand, we believe my broad grin on CNN with Wolf, my Presidential Look could put me at the top. As I said we are eternal optimists, we believe as FAR LEFT Liberals our days are the new wave of this new Century. Amen. Amen.

Remember, in the past 30 years the American Electorate has moved to the near Center, and from the experiences of Carter they have decided NOT to allow any FAR LEFT Liberal to go to the WH. Our hope is my slender experience and the "new face" will change all this. I will snatch the Nomination by hook or crook, and try to buy the Presidency from McCain spending nearly 300 million Street Money.

Don't ask me how we get this much money! That's our Trade Secret, only David Axelrod will know the truth, and I have plausible denialability in all those messy transactions.

Wallah, the Presidency is ours, and we will enjoy life to the brim. Forget about our long list of promises we made to everyone in the world. I will ring up all our enemies and say "Get Ready to wine and dine with the King of the Hill". No suffering anywhere -everyone will be rich and gay!

--Senator, What a winning strategy,
and lofty ideals! I am stunned to hear such optimism. You ARE a different man from the days of PA debacle! Did you patch up your little misunderstandings with pastor Wright?

--Yama, for now we are enemies. Once I get into the WH, I will personally invite him to the Lincoln Bedroom, and talk about all the things that happened. After all he has been my friend, Guru - mentor and what not. How can I leave in the cold for too long? Politics will be forgotten soon, old friendship between me, Rezko, Ayers, Khalidi will start blooming again.

Yama, I got to go. Allahu Akbar Mohammed rasoolihahi Allahu Akbar. Insha Allah, we will meet again.

--Bye Senator, Insha Allah we will.

_______________________________

Oh, Folks, enjoy; May 09, 2008 11:51 AM
ed iglehart said...: Well said Miranda!

知
者
不
言。
言
者
不
知。; May 09, 2008 11:52 AM
ed iglehart said...: Sor losers

Sad

Happy

And, so the world turns...; May 09, 2008 12:03 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Excuse me but I do believe that the media played a HUGH part in that because he could do no wrong, golden boy. All they did was blast blast blast Hillary so pleaseee. They took everything that came out of her mouth and Bill's and twisted it so much that it was sickening. He feed on that and if you really take a good look inside you will see that I am right.Jean; May 09, 2008 12:04 PM
Kennyb said...: yakama, you say "she has the capacity to get at least 200 SDs to total up 2211 total delegates to clinch the Nomination straight up." Even given your numbers, which are not quite right, that's 73% of the supers. And remember, almost 20% of the remaining superdelegates have yet to be chosen, so some are by default going to go to Obama.

Furthermore, your post is offensive in its tenor. Since last week, every time I have read a racially or religiously offensive post, I make a $25donation to Obama, so from his campaign, thank you.; May 09, 2008 12:05 PM
Aunt Jean said...: ipsedona you are still not getting my point. They should [the SD's] because they have been in this game for awhile or some has, to take a look at what the media did. Jean; May 09, 2008 12:07 PM
ed iglehart said...: For PRdude

Talk about trash!; May 09, 2008 12:11 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Miranda but the big question is: Where does he get that big money from reg. indivduals doesn't fly with me.Besides she doesn't whine about it just making a point there is a difference you know. But you being a Obama supporter would see it that way. Jean; May 09, 2008 12:12 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Ed but you're so willing to believe all the trash about Hillary I think it's funny!!! Jean; May 09, 2008 12:14 PM
Martin said...: Yamaka, Obama is not a Muslim. Your "satirical" attempt to paint him as one is highly offensive. Further proof that there is absolutely nothing low enough for Clinton and her supporters to stoop down to. You seriously disgust me, and I'm not exaggerating one bit.

Good luck in your continued fantasies of Hillary somehow capturing more than 70% of the SD's and winning 5 out of 6 primaries.; May 09, 2008 12:15 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Mikeruthgis on your 11:44 am post that sounds just like Obama you are talking about. LOL LOL Jean; May 09, 2008 12:17 PM
jpsedona said...: Jean,

I agree that Obama early on was getting a free ride, no doubt about it. Were the attacks on Bill Clinton justified? Yeah, I think so; so didn't MANY member of congress, SD's who were supporting her.

Once the media was on the 24x7 highlights about Rev. Wright, followed by the "bitter" comments and Bill Ayers, Hillary should have emerged as "the" candidate. There were six weeks between MS and PA. She didn't get it done in PA from a delegate perspective. She didn't get it done in NC and barely won in IN. Neither candidate has shown that they can knock the other out of the race. Honestly, there is no one one to blame but her own campaign.

Some of the party insiders who initially endorsed her have either flipped or are questioning the viability of her campaign. You can blame it on the media if you want but I think that's an oversimplification.; May 09, 2008 12:19 PM
Anonymous said...: I think many are simply passionate about their candidate but when push comes to shave and they think about the prospect of another 4 years of a president like they have now, they'll come to their senses.; May 09, 2008 12:20 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Things that make you go Hum.......

Looking at the Clinton website at the donation page, there is a button as high as $4600. When you go to the Obama donation page there is a button as high as $2,000.

Since the max a person can donate is $2,300 is someone trying to cheat?

Hum............; May 09, 2008 12:25 PM
Aunt Jean said...: ipsedona I agree with you about her campaign. Jean; May 09, 2008 12:27 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: oops, sorry had a typo, max at Obamas is $2,300.; May 09, 2008 12:28 PM
Squirrel said...: I request that the post above by 'Yamaka' be removed by Oreo and Matt, the reason is clear, it is factually incorrect.; May 09, 2008 12:29 PM
ed iglehart said...: And now, we go in search of a Vice Presidential candidate

Sebelius is in there:

"Kathleen Sebelius
Talk about reaching across the aisle. This Kansas governor convinced a Republican to leave his party, become a Democrat, and run as his Lieutenant Governor. Kansas is rife with stories of Republicans undergoing conversions, and Sebelius gets a good amount of credit for this.

Pro: Another Red-state governor with an excellent post-partisan record. Having a female VP could be a strong ticket.

Con: Sebelius didn't wow anyone with her response to the State of the Union, which raises questions about how she would do on the national stage. And her location in Kansas doesn't add much that Obama doesn't already get from Illinois."

I'm still for Webb. I like a front-runner.

xx
ed; May 09, 2008 12:33 PM
Yamaka said...: My Open Letter to the Undeclared SDs:

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Greetings from Houston: I am a delegate (not a SDs as yet!) standing up for Hillary from TX.

You are all the most seasoned politicians/leaders/policy makers in this Country. You have seen or heard Adlai Stevenson's oratory, John Kennedy's charisma, and Bill Clinton's awesome performance in the 1990s. Now we are all in a very crucial juncture in our political life. We have a very very close race between Hillary and BHO, a fairly unknown personality in American politics.

We know Hillary for at least 15 years. She has been the Brain Behind Bill to bring forth the miracles of 1990s: 22 million jobs, an economy growing at 3.75% a year, dollar was at 120 in the Index, Brand America was reigning supreme all over the world. We were the Shining City on the Hill. Now all is lost because of Dubya's inexperience at the WH. When he was elected people thought he was a nice chap, will not do any harm to anybody, will be the Custodian of the Treasury. But the truth was, he was very lazy, didn't work more than 30 h a day, was totally ill-informed, ill-read and an idiot of the 10th degree. We all suffer collectively now.

We have a choice between another inexperienced nice chap BHO, and the well known Hillary.

She has a broad coalition of constituency: most Latinos, most White Women and most of White Regular men totaling about 55% of the American electorate, who are all mostly centrists as Hillary is.

He has a narrow coalition of most Blacks, young college kids and mis-educated White men of very Liberal thoughts constituting about 45% of the American electorate.

She has won most of the MUST win large Primaries for a Democrat, he has won most of the Caucuses that normally won't vote for any Democrat anytime in the GE.

She is a centrist a moderate as I said earlier, he is the bona-fide liberal of the FAR LEFT, who were routed out of power since 1980: his friends of eternal losers are Mondale, Dukkakis, Kerry. (Gore did not get the Presidency because of the usurping of power of Renquist's Supreme Court.). Do you need another Liberal Nominee to go to the GE and trounced by the vastly experienced, moderate McCain?

Therefore, on her experience and the broader coalition she has built, she deserves your understanding and help to push her over the Hurdle of 2208.5 (the Delegate Figure as per Option 6 of DCW for Full Inclusive Democracy - Count ALL votes Seat All Delegates paradigm).

Hillary's Nomination will increase our chance of winning the WH and 2/3 of Congress immensely.

If you falter in this effort and Nominate the inexperienced BHO, a person not known to nearly half of America, we will sure to lose the opportunity to win the WH - indeed we may even lose the Congress again.

Therefore, I beg your careful analysis and forceful determination in Nominating Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Good Day. God Bless You All.

Respectfully,

Yamaka.; May 09, 2008 12:36 PM
RobH said...: danku,

At 2:02AM you posted:

"2. US does not have enough refineries to meet the demands of the new state laws in regards to immisions. We will be short for many years as it takes time to build these."

I fear the problem may be even deeper than you think. If a refinery takes 40 years to recover the investment on (under ordinary extraction economics) and we'll be out of oil in 30 years (during which we'll experience the extraordinarily expensive extraction economics of post-peak), then why would big-oil build more refineries? In fact, we might ask, is that why they haven't already recently, (i.e. does this help explain our present shortage, and maybe even some of thir record profits?); May 09, 2008 12:36 PM
Aunt Jean said...: emit I went to the sites and youare right except on obama is 2300. But there is a catch for every dollars there is someone didn't say who would match doesn't sound quite legal to me.Something fishy is going on and it's not the Clinton camp. Jean; May 09, 2008 12:38 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Hi Ed,

Kathleen Sebelius adds Ohio.

She is from Ohio and her father was a popular Governor there.

But Webb has always been high on my list. Just hate to take two good Senators out. ;o)

Would rather match up a respected Governor with Obama.; May 09, 2008 12:38 PM
RobH said...: I really admired Bill Clinton during his Presidency. But check out his schedule for today:

12:15 pm attends a “Solutions for America” event at a local fire department in Williamson, West Virginia

3:00 pm attends a “Solutions for America” event at a local high school in Wayne, West Virginia

5:30 pm attends a “Solutions for America” event at a local middle school in St. Albans, West Virginia

7:30 pm attends a “Solutions for America” event at a local fire station in Ripley, West Virginia

He must be SEETHING inside.
(Or getting serviced like you can't imagine.......); May 09, 2008 12:41 PM
Aunt Jean said...: robh very tasteless of you to say that . Jean; May 09, 2008 12:45 PM
Aunt Jean said...: robh very tasteless of you to say that . Jean; May 09, 2008 12:45 PM
Martin said...: Yamaka said "She has a broad coalition of constituency: most Latinos, most White Women and most of White Regular men totaling about 55% of the American electorate, who are all mostly centrists as Hillary is."

What on earth is a "White Regular man"???

Aunt Jean said: "But there is a catch for every dollars there is someone didn't say who would match doesn't sound quite legal to me."

Can you please put a little more effort in your posts and try to construct more coherent sentences? I know it's difficult for the average under-educated Clinton supporter, but give it a try.; May 09, 2008 12:46 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Aunt Jean,

I think if I remember right, the matching thing at the Obama site was they were trying to raise enough money to match the 11+ million that Hillary has loaned to her own campaign. Probably so they can offer to pay back her loan when this whole primary thing is over. ;o)

That would be a real classy thing for the Obama campaign to do, but I would not like it to happen if Hillary continues to make comments like she did with Obama not being able to get the Hard Working White vote. I consider myself a hard working caucasion (hate being called white) and I will proudly vote for Obama in Novemmber.; May 09, 2008 12:47 PM
Squirrel said...: Aunt Jean,

Perhaps we should look at Clinton's financies and financial past? You know all those Chinese restaurant workers who never existed?

Do you really want to go there and far, far beyond?

Just by thinking something might be 'wrong' does not make it 'wrong' without the evidence. I thought in America a person was innocent until proven guilty, ah, but I forgot, that only applies according to the Clintons' if you are them, their family, their friends, or someone who will donate to them!; May 09, 2008 12:52 PM
Squirrel said...: Obama goes up another SD!

Espinoza (CA) just endorsed Obama!; May 09, 2008 12:53 PM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 09, 2008 12:56 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Martin you are a very rude person and you have no idea what my education is so please keep your mouth shut.Let me make this very simple for you .. It said for every dollar that you [meaning a person]donates there would be someone else donating dollar for dollar what you donate to his campaign does that help. Please don't insult me. it's not appreciated and if you want to get into an insulting match I'm sure that I can accommodate you. Jean; May 09, 2008 1:01 PM
Aunt Jean said...: emit and that is your right to vote for who you want to but this WHITE woman[and proud of it]won't be voting for obama even though I have always voted democrat. Everyone should be proud of who they are] I guess you're not sorry.Jean; May 09, 2008 1:09 PM
Aunt Jean said...: squirrel you are what your name is and not worth answering! Jean; May 09, 2008 1:10 PM
ed iglehart said...: Paying off Clinton's debts would mean paying almost ten million to her former dope of a PR man and his firm.

I say fine to help her out, especially if she doesn't want the VP slot, but stiff the ad agency folk. WPP can afford it.

xx
ed; May 09, 2008 1:12 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Well everyone I guess I best get busy. As it is it's just as well there are to many insulting people on here today. Even though there are some people on here that support Obama at least they are not very rude about it they have what I would call CLASS some of you new posters need to learn from them. Jean; May 09, 2008 1:15 PM
RobH said...: Emit,

Could the $4600 have something to do with the individual max of 2300 for the primary and 2300 for the General Election? I recall that distinction has had something to do with her post PA bonanza, not being all usable, since a lot of it was GE specific.

Jean,

C'mon now. I'm just having some fun, like we're at that block party I was talking about. I already said I revere Bill, but it would be dishonest for us to ignore his known proclivities. And my use of the 'cleansed' word 'serviced' is a lot less offensive than a lot of what goes on here. Just trying to loosen things up.; May 09, 2008 1:15 PM
dsimon said...: I have to take issue with many of Yamaka's claims in her proposed letter to superdelegates.

She has a broad coalition of constituency: most Latinos, most White Women and most of White Regular men totaling about 55% of the American electorate

Yes, those groups have generally favored her over Obama. But that contest tells us nothing about how they would vote when given the choice between either of them and McCain. It's a simply unsupported extrapolation of primary results to the general election--especially when most Democrats can be expected to vote Democratic.

And if Obama were so weak with these groups, it should show up in polls against McCain. But he does about as well as Clinton does in head-to-head polling against McCain. So whatever weakness he has must be offset by strengths elsewhere.

She has won most of the MUST win large Primaries for a Democrat, he has won most of the Caucuses that normally won't vote for any Democrat anytime in the GE.

This is the same faulty argument as above: saying that the primary results predict the general election. But they don't. How A does against B (especially with a limited voting population) doesn't tell us how either of them will do against C (especially with a far larger voting population and a far higher turnout). If the argument is that Clinton does better against McCain in large and battleground states, then the place to start would be to look at polling data of Clinton and Obama against McCain in battleground states, not the results of the Democrats against each other.

There is no logical or historical support for making the jump from primary contests to the general election. And I find it frustrating that the Clinton campaign just keeps repeating it, because I think they must know better. Unfortunately, many people in the media don't bother questioning it, and some people in the public are buying it.

She is a centrist a moderate as I said earlier, he is the bona-fide liberal of the FAR LEFT

That's the claim, but based on what? The primary has turned into personality because they're so close on most issues. Their most significant policy disagreement is whether there should be a mandate for health care, and he's more moderate on that one. So I don't see where the far-left attribution comes from--or if he's far-left, she must be too.; May 09, 2008 1:16 PM
Aunt Jean said...: robh please except my own apology. There are some new posters that are coming on here and being very rude and it upset me somewhat. I know I shouldn't let them get to me.Have a nive one. Jean; May 09, 2008 1:19 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Hey Rogh how do you like my new word [nive] it's short for nice. LOL LOL Jean; May 09, 2008 1:21 PM
Richard said...: Yamaka, I notice that you have no answer to my question about how relying on superdelegates to overturn the vote of the people which you keep saying is paramount reflects the "true democracy" you claim to demand. You are trying to have it both ways: democracy is paramount when it is needed to cut Clinton's delegate deficit, but when even that doesn't win her the nomination two thirds of the remaining super delegates should completely ignore Obama's lead in pledged delegates (and for that matter Clinton's all-important popular vote) and install their choice.; May 09, 2008 1:21 PM
ed iglehart said...: More on the debt dilemma.

"The immediate problem with Penn -- whose conflicts of interest plagued
the Clinton campaign and ultimately led to his being publicly, if not
privately, repudiated -- is that if Obama helps Clinton pay off her debts, a
big chunk of those debts -- an estimated $10 million or more -- is owed to
Penn.

"Penn is the CEO of Burson-Marsteller, which has "a global network of 94
offices and 1600 employees that brings world-class public relations to
companies around the world."

"Burson-Marsteller is one of the 246 companies owned by WPP, a leading
global advertising and marketing services group. WPP controls a powerful
array of public relations, advertising and lobbying companies, including
Hill and Knowlton; Dewey Square; Ogilvy and Mather; Public Strategies Inc.;
AGB Nielsen Media Research; Quinn Gillespie and Associates; Timmons and
Company; Wexler and Walker Public Policy Associates; Young and Rubicam
Brands.

Penn, who remains a top adviser to Clinton, was forced to step down as
the face of the Clinton strategy team after disclosures that he was meeting
privately with the government of Colombia to promote congressional approval
of a trade agreement which Clinton - and her most loyal voters -- oppose.
...
Many of Obama's grassroots and netroots backers appear to be outraged
at the thought that the Obama campaign might step in to lend a hand to get
Clinton out of a financial hole -- and out of the race -- as was reported
Wednesday...."

I say STIFF THE BUGGERS!; May 09, 2008 1:22 PM
Richard said...: Martin, you are new around here, but Aunt Jean has already admitted that she is racist, and her racist views have plagued us for weeks (she holds all "blacks" responsible for some unfortunate crimes committed against her family). I have several times asked her to stop discussing race entirely because every time she does she uses racist language and offensive stereotypes, but to no avail. I refuse to read anything she has to say on principle.; May 09, 2008 1:31 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Martin I really don't know what the hell your problem is but DONT use GOD'S name in vain. I never said that I wouldn't vote for a black or any other race. As a matter of fact I admire some blacks that I know why because they are GOOD people. All I said is to be proud of who you are. Talk about bigot I do believe that you need to look in a mirror because that person that you see is the biggest one.There is one more thing that you don't know about me is I have 2 nephews that are black and they are taught to be proud of who they are and to love one enough.Jean; May 09, 2008 1:34 PM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 09, 2008 1:37 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Martin, that was uncalled for. Yes Aunt Jean may not be able to bring herself to vote for a black candidate, but isn't it better to point out the positives and maybe someday eliminate such thought patterns?

Once again, I speak from experience. My folks were bigots, but I didn't realize it growing up because our town in Kansas only had white anglo-europeen types. No African Americans, Hispanics, Asian, or any other ethnic group. Only after I had lived on my own for may years did I see and hear it in my parents conversation and actions. Well guess what, I am proud to say, that this year in the Presidential Primaries, my white 70+ old (always voted Republican before) parents voted for Obama because of his vision, honesty, and integrety.

Instead of tearing others down for their beliefs, lets try to educate folks. We can make this a better country to live in.

YES WE CAN ;o); May 09, 2008 1:39 PM
Aunt Jean said...: richard I guess you haven't been on here for awhile. Also I guess you didn't read all of it. I said that I hadn't come to terms with a lot of things when I met a little old black lady that I learned to care very much for and she helped me see that blacks were not bad. That there were trash in every race. So please quit with that BS. Jean; May 09, 2008 1:40 PM
Aunt Jean said...: LET ME MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR THE REASON I AM NOT VOTING FOR OBAMA IS NOT BECAUSE HE IS BLACK, PART BLACK, OR WHATEVER. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH TRUST I REPEAT TRUST.NOW PLEASE GET YOUR FINGERS OUT OF YOUR EARS.QUITE CALLING ME A RACIST.CAN YOU NOT READ MY LIPS!!!!!vdrpfef JEAN; May 09, 2008 1:47 PM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 09, 2008 1:53 PM
ed iglehart said...: Funny thing, Jean, but the reason I wouldn't vote for Hillary has nothing to do with race or gender or age, but everything to do with TRUST.

知者不言。言者不知。; May 09, 2008 1:53 PM
Martin said...: "Instead of tearing others down for their beliefs, lets try to educate folks. We can make this a better country to live in."

emit, I agree. On the other hand, part of this education is making it perfectly clear how offensive their sentiments are.; May 09, 2008 1:54 PM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 09, 2008 1:54 PM
Naiomi said...: Aunt Jean,

Did you misspeak when you said you were proud to be white? I have a feeling that you really meant to say you were proud of your heritage not the color of your skin. I am just trying to be fair. It seems to me you have made a real effort in the last couple of days to keep your language clean. I hope you keep that up.; May 09, 2008 2:00 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Ed that's fine and I don't hold that against and I'm not saying that you hate woman because you won't vote for Hillary but the same thing applies to me. It seems to me that there are some people on here that think I should be ashamed of bing white. I was not tryiny to insult anyone. I took it that emit was alittle ashamed of being white.r Jean; May 09, 2008 2:04 PM
Aunt Jean said...: naiomi that's exactly what I meant. I just believe everyone should be proud of who they are no matter what they are. Jean; May 09, 2008 2:07 PM
Squirrel said...: While the debate(s) gon on here, the great news is:

Another SD for Obama!!!!!

Vernon Watkins (CA) endorses Obama!!!!!

only 169 delegates to go for Obama.; May 09, 2008 2:11 PM
Yamaka said...: Squirrel:

I believe this site is not just for the BHO lovers - the FAR LEFT Liberals. For ALL Americans.

If the mgmt does NOT like Hillary supporters or me in particular, they have the right to remove our posts! Not a big deal.

Please remember we are Americans, we will have 100 different points of view on any matter.

Just grow up, taste the real world!
_________________________________

kennyb:

Sorry I touched your raw nerve. Send more money to BHO, he needs it because he spends too much Street Money to buy the Nomination.

Good Luck
____________________________________

martin:

White Regular Men means the non-white-collar Joes, who are the bulk of American men.

BHO was a Muslim and he learned to recite Quranic passages long before he ever read a Bible. That's a fact.
_______________________________

dsimon:

In my mind a candidate seeking the Nomination of Democratic party MUST first win the traditional large Primaries of Blue States, before launching into Red States.

BHO has won the traditional Red Caucuses mostly and failed to win large MUST win Blue states, unlike HRC.
_______________________________

richard:

I see your point on pledged delegates. They are important, but equally important is the SDs when no one has clinched the 2208.5 Hurdle (Option 6 DCW).

SDs will look into the total picture of Electability: Popular Votes, Name Recognition, Outstanding Scandals, either FAR LEFT or Centrist ideology etc, IMO.
_-

_____________

Cheers. Vote for Hillary for REAL POSITIVE CHANGE.
:-); May 09, 2008 2:19 PM
Anonymous said...: For Aunt Jean
Martin,
You are a MENTAL MIDGET, a discrace to your race an I so hope you are not a Democrat.
I take offense with your language,
But I understand that anyone whose Daddy is his uncle has limited intelligence.; May 09, 2008 2:25 PM
Squirrel said...: Yamaka,

That is a good one, 'name recognition', so do you mean 'Hitler' should be in with a shot? After all his name is well recognised.

Or do you mean 'name recognition + name association'?

You know like the name Clinton for example.

Clinton associations are lying, cheating, fraud, embesslement, obstructing justice, Chinese Intelligence Service, threats, false accounting, blackmail, extra-marital sex, profiteering, NAFTA, making money from NAFTA, deliberately laying false evidence against Federal employees, having the murders of teenagers classed as suicides or train accidents, and then we get on to the small things like 'unable to run an effective election campaign, begging low and middle class Americans for money to pay off debts when they are multi-millionaires, racism, sexism, questionable (at best) grasp on reality, theft of government property, elitism, bitterness, bad judgement, bad money mangement (legal), etc..

I take it 'you' did not mean name association?; May 09, 2008 2:35 PM
dsimon said...: Yamaka says: dsimon:

In my mind a candidate seeking the Nomination of Democratic party MUST first win the traditional large Primaries of Blue States, before launching into Red States.

BHO has won the traditional Red Caucuses mostly and failed to win large MUST win Blue states, unlike HRC.

But why must a candidate win a primary in those states? If the argument is that those states are necessary in the general election, how do primary results against another Democrat have any relevance?

The Clinton camp's argument seems to be that since she won NY in a primary, Obama will lose NY in the general election. But that's simply not the case; both candidates will win NY. So why would a primary victory in NY be a requirement for the general election? I believe the answer is: it isn't.

Polling shows Obama up against McCain substantially in NY, CA, and many other traditionally Democratic states. The fact is that success in a primary in one state or another does not necessarily translate into being the stronger candidate in that state in the general election. It is simply a faulty extrapolation because the choice presented in the general is a completely different one.

Again, if the argument is that Clinton is the better candidate to get to 270 electoral votes against McCain, the obvious place to start is head-to-head polling of each Democrat against McCain in each state. The state-by-state Clinton-Obama results don't tell us anything about who does better against McCain.; May 09, 2008 3:00 PM
ed iglehart said...: Have your say on Obama's running-mate!

Webb leads the field, a virtual tie for second place between Sebelius and Richardson...

Watch this space!

知者不言。言者不知。; May 09, 2008 3:20 PM
Richard said...: Yamaka, you did not answer my question. How is superdelegate nullification of the delegate and popular vote winner's nomination fit into the complete democracy you profess is the only thing you interested in. You've been ridiculing anyone who suggests that the magic number is 2024 as not supporting total democracy, but it is you who wishes to undo the results of the popular vote in some back room.

I will not deign to respond to you, Aunt Jean, because you are not worth my time. But please stop referring in your posts to "blacks." Black is not a noun and using it as one people is as offensive as calling someone from Asia an "Oriental." If you must refer to race at all, please say "black person" or "black people."

Martin, in case you are wondering, Jim is a blatant racist, too. He's not worth responding too, either.; May 09, 2008 3:29 PM
dsimon said...: Have your say on Obama's running-mate!

Sam Nunn, who might make a very good choice, isn't on the list for the poll.; May 09, 2008 3:31 PM
Oregon Dem said...: I found this site shortly after the 2/5 primaries and check in almost daily to see what has happened with super delegates. Great site!

I also just "have" to check into the open thread because you all are the most amusing set of characters I have found.

Yam, Dave, Aunt Jean, Ed, jpsedona, etc. it is really fun reading your posts.

The serious question I have to ask now that Obama has the lock on our party's nomination is:

Will all of us come around and support him in the general election?

I was an Edwards supporter from the get go. When John dropped out I thought hard and decided that Obama was our party's best choice. I like Clinton and most certainly would have voted for her if she got the nomination, but of the two I support more of Obama's positions. (BTW if you want to test your alignment with the candidates you can go to NPR and they ask 15 questions about specific policies with four answers each. Mine came out aligned with Obama @ 13 Clinton @ 11 Paul @ 6 and McCain @2)

I believe Obama will be our candidate, but will (and always would have) supported whoever the democratic party nominated.

PS: I already voted and now have to get my wife and two daughters to vote today or tomorrow (or go buy some one cent stamps today!)

Later all.; May 09, 2008 3:33 PM
ed iglehart said...: Welcome Oregonian!

Any pal of Kesey or Babbs?

知者不言。言者不知。; May 09, 2008 3:50 PM
Amot said...: So, what was the effect of Hillary's comment about hard-working, white Americans and Obama?
The effect was:
- Latino (Mr.)super for Obama
- African-American super for Obama
- Asian (Hawaii) super for Obama
- Native American super for Obama
- Italo-American super for Obama
- Welsh-American super for Obama
(this one I dedicate to our Scottish Obama fan)
- Union American super (and the whole union) for Obama

Rings a bell, Hillary?; May 09, 2008 3:58 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Yamakamidaze said...
"BHO was a Muslim and he learned to recite Quranic passages long before he ever read a Bible. That's a fact."

Care to cite a legitimate source on that? Legitimate, as NOT Faux News or Drudge?

Otherwise this really confirms that you are a religious bigot, and you are NOT a Democrat.

BTW - if Senator Obama is a Muslim, is he Sunni or Shia?

What a freaking idiot you are Yamakamikaze. And if you think repeating a lie like this will get people to back your candidate if her opponent is not the nominee, you are delusional.

Mike; May 09, 2008 4:31 PM
Oregon Dem said...: ed: Sorry to disappoint but Ken's bus was all that I saw when I moved here from Indiana....

BTW - good news for us in Oregon Dems now have 90,000 more registered voters then they did back in January (when they only led the Repugnacans by 70,000).

BTW: my name is Ed too :-); May 09, 2008 4:41 PM
jpsedona said...: Yam,

"Greetings from Houston: I am a delegate (not a SDs as yet!) standing up for Hillary from TX"

Just to be clear, When you say that you are a delegate, you mean that you are a delegate to the state convention, not "THE CONVENTION", correct?; May 09, 2008 4:46 PM
Amot said...: Mike, JPS,
he (Yam) is an idiot and that is why I stopped paying attention to his posts few days ago...
Jps, I think he is running for PLEDGED delegate but somehow he thinks he is going to be a SUPER...
Unless he gets an add-on spot (very unlikely since in the current situation I don't think add-on spot will go to Hillary at all) but such a spot is given to people more deserving and less idiot than he is...; May 09, 2008 4:54 PM
Oregon Dem said...: amot: The only idiots are ones who vote for McCain and other repugnants.

Yam may be repugnant to you and maybe s/he really is a republican, but if we are all going to support our candidate and our President Barack Obama is this not the best time to come together?

Paraphrasing the words of John Lennon:

"Come together - Right Now! - over Obama"; May 09, 2008 5:01 PM
Richard said...: Now that Obama has all but clinched the nomination, I think it is time to start considering Vice Presidential running mates. I'm not sure, but one name I haven't seen mentioned much but which I think is worth consideration is Bill Bradley. He's got experience in the senate, national security experience, and he's a very likable figure.

Another thing to consider is that, a senator hasn't won the election since JFK. Perhaps Obama could balance his ticket with someone with executive experience...a governor, perhaps? Maybe from a swing state?; May 09, 2008 5:24 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Come on DEMOCRATS UNITE!

Say no to McCain!
Say no to the Bush policies!
Say no to the war!
Say no to a Bush 3rd term!
VOTE OBAMA!

Obama / Kathleen Sebelius '08; May 09, 2008 5:28 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Oregon Dem,

You have not had the history of the rest of us in dealing with Yamakamikaze.

He is a rascist of the first degree. He is delusional. He is a religious bigot. He makes statements as fact, then will not, or can not, back them up with citations to legitimate sources.

If Yamakamikaze were a passionate Clinton backer, but participated in civil discourse, he would not be made fun of, nor would he be castigated, by so many people here. He has shown over and over again, though, that his intent is to sow discord among Democratic party members, and that is why so many have disgust for him and his posts.

Read some of his prior messages, and you will begin to get a picture of the person he is, not the person he tries to portray himself as.

Mike

P.S. - If you are wondering why I call him Yamakamikaze, it's because what he is doing is what the kamikaze pilots did in WW II. They tried to frighten the Americans into surrender. The only real effect they had on Americans was to steel their resolve to defeat the enemy. My father was in the Navy in the South Pacific, and endured one kamikaze attack. In my family, any person who would try that type of attack is considered some of the lowest form of life on earth. IMO, Yamakamikaze fits that profile, and I consider him THE lowest form of life on earth.; May 09, 2008 5:33 PM
jpsedona said...: MI & FL Delegate Projection:

IMO, I believe that the full delegations from both FL & MI will be seated. In MI, I see them going with the state party endorsed plan of 69-59. However, I think the RBC / DNC will penalize the states a half vote each. I don't think the DNC will dock the SD's from these states.

Although my preference would be to seat the delegations in full and dock the SD's a 1/2 vote, I don't think that's likely.

So, since DCW does not have the combination of FL primary results + MI 69-59 plus state penalties as part of the possible options, I'm including it here:

Current (Obama / Clinton)
Pledged 1590.5 / 1426.5
SD's: 268.0 / 269.5
Total: 1858.5 / 1696.0 [162.5]

Michigan (1/2 vote per pledged)
Pledged: 29.5 /34.5
SD's: 1 / 7
Total: 1889 / 1737.5 [151.5]

Florida (1/2 vote per pledged)
Pledged: 33.5 / 52.5
SD's: 5 / 8
Total: 1927.5 / 1798 [129.5]

Total delegates to convention:
Current (w/o FL & MI): 4048
MI Pledged (penalty): 64
FL Pledged (penalty): 92.5
MI SD's: 26
FL SD's: 29
TOTAL: 4259.5

Required: 2129.75
Obama Delegates Needed: 202.25
Clinton Dels Needed: 331.75

In Florida there are 6.5 Edwards delegates (with 1/2 vote penalty).; May 09, 2008 5:37 PM
Yamaka said...: Hello Folks, Houston is hot. I need to just dive into my pool shortly.

Squirrel:

Whether you like it or not HRC's name recognition is far and deep in this country, and all over the world. Accept it and move on.

If you don't want to recognize that simple fact, then I can't help you, sorry.

Even BHO has said this many many times. Please ask David Axelrod. HRC is a name to be reckoned with.
________________________________
dsimon:

Qn to you: Why didn't BHO win MA, CA, OH, FL, PA, IN etc (leave the NY and IL the home States)?

The answer will guide you to my logic.

Qn: How could BHO seek the Nomination of the Democratic Party when he said, "Republican Party is the Party of Ideas"?"

I understand you don't want to be in my shoe even for a minute!
__________________________________

richard:

My logic has been a 50 State Strategy for the Primary and the GE.
Since the Date Rule was poorly implemented, and 2.5 million people have gone to the polls and voted, I argue their votes must be counted and their delegates seated fully, thus the magic Hurdle is 2208.5. This I call as for Full Inclusive Democracy.

On SDs' Nullifacation: As per the Party there are nearly 20% of the Total Del are SDs, who can vote their conscience according to their view of the world. Your word "Nullifcation" is quite misleading.

No one has clinched the 2208.5 with their pledged delegates so far. It's impossible. And both Candidates are very very close, BHO has about 30 total delegates more and 0.23% more Popular vote, which could very well change by June 4th.

In a situation like THIS, the SDs become very very important, as they are the "King Makers" as per the Party Rule.

I am urging them to look at the Big Picture of Electability in the GE. Of course, they will use their best judgment and vote their conscience, at the end of the day. We will know only when they really vote at the Convention in late Aug. Because, till then any declaration is just temporary, and they CAN change their mind till the last minute.

Where is the problem, richard?
Let us wait till late Aug to go to the Coronation Ball, if we are sane people!
__________________________________

rodentmousein IN

I see your feathers are ruffled. I suggest run over a cliff and reach the Gates of Hell for being such a shallow person.

To know about BHO's religiosity and Sunni vs Shia, please investigate his life in Indonesia with his Muslim step-father Lolo in Indonesia for 4 years (age 6-10).

Read your Messaiah's both Books. Many passages are very controversial. Since he has very thin resume, his Books become the source of his inner mind.

Many 527s are working feverishly to run Ads regarding those Statements in the Books.

You need to wait till early Sep, if he is the Nominee, to the utter amazement of sane people, to know the wrath of the 527s.

Get a good grip of your shallow life.
_________________________________

Cheer, Smile and Vote for Hillary the First Woman POTUS.
:-); May 09, 2008 5:39 PM
Anonymous said...: Squirrel you said...
Yamaka,

Or do you mean 'name recognition + name association'?

Sqirrel,
You are new here, but you are quickly building name association
and the associations so far are not positive.; May 09, 2008 5:52 PM
jpsedona said...: The drip drip drip of Superdelegates is now a steady trickle.

For the work week (Mon-Fri):

Obama: +20 SD's (plus one in FL)
Clinton: +1/2 SD

Looks like a trend to me. Not good news for Hillary...; May 09, 2008 5:55 PM
Squirrel said...: Jim,

Get your facts right, I am not knew here!

And whether the truth is palatable or not I will tell it. Now if you do not like a post then argue the points, I am able to give examples of evidence to all 'name associations' I listed.

As for popularity I am not a politician, and therefore I do not give a damn who the truth upsets, but I will voice the truth.; May 09, 2008 6:01 PM
Anonymous said...: jp
Your supposition is plausable but not logical.
probably one half fo MI, but full for FLA.
BTW the supers are watching popular vote closely. So that plus
big MO is likely their guide.
They still remember 2000 and how upset everyone was with Gore being the Popular choice of the people.; May 09, 2008 6:03 PM
Keryl said...: Yikes, I leave for a couple hours and come back with Obama within .5. Wow. Who will be the one to put him in the lead, and what will Matt and Oreo rename the "Clinton Superdelegate Endorsement Lead" chart?; May 09, 2008 6:06 PM
Oregon Dem said...: Mike:

Yam is just uneducated and uninformed. As I stated in my first post - I have read about 1500 posts in the open thread since the 2/5 primaries.

For me I agree with our nominee: There is no reason to go into the gutter and brawl with the old Rovian tactics.

The American people are smarter than that as a whole, though there are some that are not and a few here have proved it over the last few months.

Yam is one, Aunt Jean is another.

Whether they are just so uneducated and / or uniformed or are just plain nasty all the time (you may call that racist or whatever) or are just so blinded in their passion for Hillary REALLY does not matter to me.

What does matter to me include two things:

1) I refuse to get into name calling and tit for tat responses with the uneducated and uniformed - I would rather educate and inform.

and

2)Our nominee, Barack Obama, would not be happy with any supporter of his not agreeing with #1.

just my thoughts.; May 09, 2008 6:17 PM
Anonymous said...: Squirrel said...
Jim,

Get your facts right, I am not knew here!
Squirrel, You may not be "knew" here because that is a tense of knowing, which suggests knowledge. So based on that fact, you are not “KNEW HERE”
As for new, your profile shows May. It is May 9th, so welcome old-timer.
Now for associations, some rip Aunt Jean and Yam when they allude to Barack’s and they usually link direct associations, not those once or twice removed.
I doubt you would know the truth, even if it was floating in your Obama-aid along with your leechee nuts.; May 09, 2008 6:25 PM
RobH said...: Keryl,

I believe Utah elects an add-on today, and it's probably going to Obama, based on state results.

I do believe it's happening today.

The funniest thing here is Yam's strident declarative: "SD's pay close attention and act."

I think the net count since Tueas nite is Obama 15, Clinton 0.; May 09, 2008 6:34 PM
Keryl said...: Robh: Go back and read Yams posts (under whatever psuedonyms), the are even more fun now.; May 09, 2008 6:41 PM
Anonymous said...: Jim said...
Squirrel As for new, your profile shows May. It is May 9th, so welcome old-timer.
Not correct. I mis-spoke, lied or some other ignorant thing
If you will overlook this gaffe,
I will overlook Obama saying he has been to 57 states.; May 09, 2008 6:47 PM
ed iglehart said...: Politico now has Obama up on Superdelegates by 2.5!

And the beat goes on.......
And Rasmussen To Stop Polling Clinton Questions Because "Race Is Over" interesting...

知者不言。言者不知。; May 09, 2008 6:47 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Oregon Dem,

The problem with not confronting people like Yamakamikaze is that when they spew total lies (such as "Obama is a Muslim"), or are delusional in reality (such as "Senator Clinton could easily pick up 200 of the remaining SDs"), some people might believe the lies, distortions, and conclude the delusional comments reflect reality if they are presented with opposing viewpoints, and facts to rebut the lies and distortions.

I know I can't change Yamakamikaze's thought process, but by confronting him, asking him to cite legitimate sources (even when I know he can't), asking him to respond to specific points of inquiry (and never receiving a cogent and logical response, if a response is even posted), pointing out discrepancies in his arguments, etc., this can cause people to think about the lies, distortions, discrepancies, and consider that source might not be putting forward fair and honest information.

If the lies (especially), distortions and discrepancies are allowed to lie unopposed, they fester. How long has the right-wing been trying to convince people that Senator Obama is not a Christian? And some people, who state that they are members of the Democratic Party, are still trumpeting that LIE?

Besides, Yamakamikaze MIGHT be able to convince me to see things the same as he does, but he'd have to convince me to do that by a logical argument, using facts (something he seems incapable of doing). And in the process, he might learn something about life, including having a civil discourse on a public forum.

Yamakamikaze - Be careful the next time you call Senator Obama 'the Manchurian Candidate'. If you know the plot of the book from which the movie was derived, you would realize that that appellation would much more easily fit the resume of Senator McCain. After all, McCain was the candidate who was held as a POW for several years; his days as a POW were in an Asian prison; and his captors were Communists. All those factors were the plot lines of the book and the movie.

Mike; May 09, 2008 6:57 PM
Yamaka said...: Oregan dem:

Thanks for your kind reply.

Obviously, yo cannot take any criticism, that's okay.

Clearly, I am not in your Echo Chamber, nor your Choir!

Listen carefully, this is what I heard from lots of women:

The Democratic party is now dominated by anti-women bigots that they would rather pander to the Black Caucus than worry about the Glass Ceiling on us, the hard working women.

They want us to sit at the Back of the Bus! This is very humiliating.

We will take our revenge on the Party for all their anti-women stand when the right time comes!

This is a form of Reverse Discrimination.

White Women in America ARE treated like dogs by the bogus champions of Human Rights, the Civil Rights, the Democratic Party of America.

God will chase them to the Gates of Hell very soon. Amen.

________________________________-

Well, you are angering and alienating White Women the 31% of the Total Electorate in America!

Think hard and act right!

:-(; May 09, 2008 7:06 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Jim said...
"Squirrel As for new, your profile shows May. It is May 9th, so welcome old-timer."

Jim,

Is there a law that says someone has to register prior to reading any of the messages here at DemConWatch?

Don't think so, as I was reading the messages and other information for several weeks prior to posting my first message.

I suspect that many others did the same thing. In fact, several others have admitted it in their messages!

Mike; May 09, 2008 7:10 PM
jpsedona said...: Jim,

You could be correct about FL not being penalized. I tend to think that the RBC / DNC will want to penalize both states in the same fashion and in accordance with the party ruiles which indicate a 1/2 vote penalty for moving up the primaries. The RBC can obviously change the rules but I think they will institute a penalty. I understand that FL Dem party didn't have full control over things so you could be right and they won't penalize them.; May 09, 2008 7:11 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Yamaka said: "The Democratic party is now dominated by anti-women bigots....."
______________________

Yamaka that is just not true.

And I do not think that all the WOMEN that are Senators and Congresswomen and Govenors would agree with you.

Obama / Kathleen Sebelius '08; May 09, 2008 7:19 PM
Anonymous said...: Mike in Maryland said...

Jim,

Is there a law that says someone has to register prior to reading any of the messages here at DemConWatch?

Don't think so, as I was reading the messages and other information for several weeks prior to posting my first message.

Mike,
You got me. I already tried to weasel out. I was wrong.; May 09, 2008 7:21 PM
jpsedona said...: Yam,

Your line that says "Listen carefully, this is what I heard from lots of women:" made me laugh... there are just so many things that you've probably heard from women... but I degress. To get the nomination, it's still about Money, Math & Momentum...; May 09, 2008 7:21 PM
jpsedona said...: The story about Rasmussen no longer conducting polling for Obama vs. Clinton is interesting reading.

Rasmussen Calls the Race Over; May 09, 2008 7:30 PM
Oregon Dem said...: Mike: I agree with your last post 100% except for one thing:

It is true that we cannot let lies fester (like the swift boat ads) amongst the uneducated and uniformed general public. My exception is that anyone who follows and participates in a forum such as this and are uneducated and uninformed are not those that can be persuaded by logical argument.

Yam for example could not be persuaded to change his / her opinion no matter how logical you are with him - no matter what "name" we may give him.

On the other hand I will give an example from work the other day. A true uneducated, uninformed guy I worked with saw my "Obama 08" sign on my car and asked why on earth I was not supporting Hillary. I asked why he thought I should be supporting Hillary. His reply was that Bill gave us good economic times (agreed) and that Barack was black and church going and therefore HAD to believe the same terrible things that Rev. Wright had to say about the US.

The second was an argument to pick. That kind of shallow mindedness needs rebutting and our exchange was respectful and positive. I believe I actually changed his mind.

Yam: I have three daughters, a wife, both my wife's and my mothers are still living, both my wife and I have one sister each.

Not counting me, just the women in my extended family, Obama got one vote in NJ (my Mom), one vote in FL (my wife's Mom), one vote in OH (my sister), one vote in WA (my eldest daughter) and will get four votes in Oregon (my wife, two younger daughters and my Sister-in-law).

They and I all respect Hillary and would vote for her in a heartbeat if she were running against McCain. She is not Obama is.

Facts are facts.; May 09, 2008 7:33 PM
Yamaka said...: "To get the nomination, it's still about Money, Math & Momentum..."

jp:

I am still astounded that you don't include "Message" in your sentence! lol

___________________________________-

To ALL the BHO Supporters:

How many EVs can BHO get with his 16.5 million FAR LEFT Liberal supporters? 20 or 30 or 50!!????

I believe BHO needs the Centrists of the Party, and the Centrist American electorates to support your Manchurian Candidate, the Empty Suit.

Can you give me some road map, as to how you plan to achieve success in the Fall?

Remember, Adlai Stevenson long time ago.
Remember, Mondale, Dukakkis, Kerry and other pantheons of Liberal Politics who kissed the Death of Defeat in the GE!

Just a fond remembrance!

:-); May 09, 2008 7:34 PM
Squirrel said...: Oh Jim, I am so worried!

How dastardly of me, perhaps I should reintroduce myself, look up 'Bill UK'. I re-registered simply because I forgot my password of my old account!

Now the next 24 hours is going to be fun, fun, fun!!!!; May 09, 2008 7:43 PM
jpsedona said...: On Time there's an article "Obama Opens Door to Easing Clinton’s Debt"... it sounds like a movie...

NOW SHOWING

Hillary's Field of Dreams

"EASE HER PAIN"

"GO THE DISTANCE"

"What if the Voice calls at 3am while you're gone?"

"I'm going to beat you with a crowbar until you leave."
"You can't do that."
"There are rules here? No, there are no rules here."

"Barak, people will come Barak. They'll come to Iowa for reasons they can't even fathom. They'll turn up at your caucus not knowing for sure why they're doing it. They'll arrive innocent as children, longing for the past. Of course, we won't mind if you look around, you'll say. It's only $20 per person. They'll pass over the money without even thinking about it: for it is money they have and peace they lack."

"Are you Moonlight Clinton?"

"Is this heaven?"
"No, It's Iowa."
"Iowa? I could have sworn this was heaven"

"The only thing we had in common was that she was from PA, and I had once heard of PA"

Bill's best line: "I did it all. I listened to the voices, I did what they told me, and not once did I ask what's in it for me"; May 09, 2008 7:59 PM
jpsedona said...: Yam,

In this campaign cycle, message seems to be a distant fourth...; May 09, 2008 8:01 PM
Benjamin Spector said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 09, 2008 8:10 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 09, 2008 8:14 PM
ed iglehart said...: BillUK/Squirrel,

check this

知者不言。言者不知。; May 09, 2008 8:16 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: LA Times headline:
"Times poll shows Clinton and Obama beating McCain" [emphasis added]

TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/6gh2dz

Mike; May 09, 2008 8:16 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Update on a post I made May 09, 2008 6:05 AM on this, the Open Thread re: Rep. Fosella of New York (R-13):

It appears that pressure is growing for his resignation, with some sources saying he will make an announcement on Monday that he will resign, although some say at the end of the term, others saying in the near future.

If he does resign in the near future, a special election would be called.

Are there any New Yorkers who have any indication how a special election might go? Any info on who might be the GOP candidate if he doesn't resign now, but doesn't run for reelection?

In other words - what are the chances for a Dem pick-up of this New York GOP-held seat in either event?

Mike; May 09, 2008 8:33 PM
ed iglehart said...: Discussing Hillary's possible futures.

xx
ed; May 09, 2008 8:45 PM
Squirrel said...: ed iglehart,

Beautiful site, especially the panoramic view! We get few reds down here in the lakes, mainly greys now!

Anyway, back to the politics! (Oh what fun.)

A few simple question for all here.

Under the US constitution does it make any difference what color a persons skin is or what sex they are, or indeed what religion or what their sexual orientation is, with regard to being elected President of the US?

Also how many of you have sworn oaths to uphold (and even defend) the constitution of the United States of America?

We in the outside world generally have looked up to the USofA, one thing that has generally been held in high esteem is your constitution, and the Democratic Party was generally looked upon as the major 'true' defender of that constitution.

Also it is now doing the rounds that Clinton is even considering running as an 'Independant'!; May 09, 2008 8:50 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Benjamin Spector -

Looks like the reason your post on the SuperDelegate page was deleted because it was too long and was not really about a Super Delegate endorsement. I understand that the other poster asked and question and you were trying to answer the other person but the other person's question should have been deleted also because it was about 'Hillarys letter' and did not have anything to do with a SD ENDORSEMENT.

These are busy times and Oreo and Matt are trying to keep the SD page reserved for SD 'announcements'.

If you want to 'discuss' things then here on the OPEN THREAD is the place to do it.

Welcome to the thread :); May 09, 2008 8:51 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Squirrel said: "Under the US constitution does it make any difference what color a persons skin is or what sex they are, or indeed what religion or what their sexual orientation is, with regard to being elected President of the US?"
___________

U.S. Constitution - Article 2 Section 1 states:
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

AND:

I think under Article VI - it states that there will be NO religious test!

America - THE WORLD IS WATCHING US!; May 09, 2008 8:57 PM
dsimon said...: Yamaka: "I believe BHO needs the Centrists of the Party, and the Centrist American electorates to support your Manchurian Candidate, the Empty Suit."

My understanding is that Obama does better with independents than Clinton. I ask again: how can Obama be far left when he and Clinton have almost identical positions on most major issues? And on whether there should be a health care mandate, he has the more moderate position?

Can the accusation that Obama is far left be backed up with any evidence? I don't think so.; May 09, 2008 8:59 PM
Yamaka said...: :A true uneducated, uninformed guy I worked with saw my "Obama 08" sign on my car"

Oregon Dem:

You sound very much like the "Elitist" in BHO, Jr.

Birds of same feathers flock together!

You malignant semi/ill-educated Elitist will Kiss the Death of Failure in the Fall.

I promise.

Your Anti-Women Crowd!

_________________________________-

dsimon:

1.BHO Jr wants to give drivers' license to illegals, a true instinct of a bleeding Liberal, most American Electorates hate.

2. He wants to lift the income cap on SS taxation, another instinct of a bleeding Liberal, most American Electorates hate.

HRC DOES not want to do both.

Will this suffice to convince you that BHO is NOT HRC on policy issues and ideology?

Think hard act fast.

Vote for Hillary who can get nearly 60 million voters in the FALL to clinch 350 EVs.; May 09, 2008 9:30 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Richard
do you want to know who is a racist here YOU. Even the media says black it is not a racist remark agaist them in any way. So saying whites is being racist against my own skin color. No one here is calling a black person racist names just bacause they say black. So get a life because you must be very bored to cause such a fuss over someone saying black!!You are really showing your inmaturity. GROW UP LITTLE BOY AND COME BACK WHEN YOU CAN TALK LIKE AN ADULT! Jean; May 09, 2008 9:36 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Leah I'm going to say this once more please listen this is how I feel. It does not matter what skin color they are. Everyone should be treated as an equal.[except murders, child molester hang them sob's]I think you know what I'm saying.Everyone on here even you Obama supporters are probable law abiding citizens and good people but just because I don't trust Obama and will not vote for him even now more so because I feel with the help of the media he has stolen the nomination how it was done was not fair and even though you back obama and you might not be willing to admit it you know that it is true.I still do not want Hillary to drop out. Jean; May 09, 2008 9:45 PM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 09, 2008 9:51 PM
suzihussein22 said...: WOW! You guys are really goin' for the gusto!

Tyler- Thank you and actually I'm a her. I mentioned being a mom and having a husband but maybe that was on an older post. Another person caught my eye today. Dr. Liu Xiaolin has solved 2 major pediatric crises in 5 yrs. involving viral foot and mouth disease and something else. A person that still influences me is Mother Teresa. She walked the walk! There is a pediatric surgeon here in the USA that has caught my attention for several years now but his name is eluding me. I believe he is involved either with St. Jude or the Mayo Clinic. We have supported both and so has our daughter who is already a hero to me. She has such a big heart. My son is also already a great citizen. They both gave one of their stuffed toys to orphans of 9/11.; May 09, 2008 9:54 PM
Aunt Jean said...: oregon demo I've been to oregon they are not that educated there. Don't worry I'm not saying that they are stupid even though with you that's debatable with your remarks.One thing I do know this you have no taste considering your words. Jean

May 09, 2008 9:51 PM; May 09, 2008 9:57 PM
ed iglehart said...: Trip trap, trip trap...; May 09, 2008 10:02 PM
Richard said...: It is a shame that this site is blogger-based and doesn't use better forum software which would make it possible to moderate the thread and ban bigoted posters.

Although I love this site and I think many posters here are wonderful (jpsedona, leah, ed inglehart, dave in nc, mike in maryland, and ariane just to name a few) I am growing so frustrated with a few bigoted trolls that I am beginning to think it is not worth my time to read this thread. Every time I come on here I am subjected to insane rantings by yamaka, racist slurs and insults from jim, and Aunt Jean's subtler but no less insidious bigotry.

It's sad.; May 09, 2008 10:03 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Aunt Jean said...
"Richard
do you want to know who is a racist here YOU. Even the media says black it is not a racist remark agaist them in any way."

Jean,

The term used to be "n*****". Then it was "colored people". Then it was "black".

Now it is "African-American".

Similar to those of Italian descent were formerly called "WOPS", but are now called "Italian-Americans".

"Chinks" are now called "Chinese-Americans".

"Fags" are now called "gays", "lesbians" or "homosexuals" (except in Britain, where a fag is a cigarette).

Jews used to be called "kikes".

It is called being respectful of a person's ethnicity, heritage, or sexual identity, and by describing them in a non-disrespectful manner.

Continuing to describe someone of African-American heritage with a different descriptive shows how much respect you have for them and society's mores.

Apparently you have little to none.

Mike; May 09, 2008 10:03 PM
Yamaka said...: "Every time I come on here I am subjected to insane rantings by yamaka, racist slurs and insults from jim, and Aunt Jean's subtler but no less insidious bigotry."

Richard:

You need to live in a closed glass house where NO one would give you opposing points of view! You cannot take a punch!

Grow up, you seem to whine a lot!

:-(; May 09, 2008 10:13 PM
Richard said...: Mike: I agree with most of what you said, but I do not think referring to "black voters" or "black people" is offensive; I understand that in many areas this is now the preferred terminology. What is offensive is referring to a person as "a black" or a group of people as "blacks," which is what Aunt Jean continues to do. I would also note that it is offensive to refer to a race of people as "them."; May 09, 2008 10:20 PM
ed iglehart said...: Richard,

Just let it be like
water off a duck's back. I don't get too bothered when folk misspell my name.
;-)
ed

Under heaven nothing is more soft and yielding than water.
Yet for attacking the solid and strong, nothing is better;
It has no equal.
The weak can overcome the strong;
The supple can overcome the stiff.
Under heaven everyone knows this,
Yet no one puts it into practice.
Therefore the sage says:
He who takes upon himself the humiliation of the people is fit to rule them.
He who takes upon himself the country's disasters deserves to be king of the universe.

The truth often sounds paradoxical.; May 09, 2008 10:21 PM
Independent Voter said...: Aunt Jean, I will give you reasons why I could never support a Clinton again.

I served in the US Army for 3 years from 1990-1993. I even served from 92-93 openly (gay). My commanding officer had no problem and neither did the men in my unit, my partner and I actually met in the Army.

Bill campaigned on the platform that he would allow gays to serve openly. My commanding officer didn't discharge me because when I came out, Bill had already won the November election, therefore he was willing to keep me in.

Once Bill passed DADT I, by law, WAS REQUIRED TO BE DISCHARGED! For this I will NEVER forgive EITHER Clinton - especially since she is claiming his "experience" as her own.

Once I was out, it took nearly a year to find a decent paying job, due to my "discharge" because it goes on your record as a "dishonorable discharge" or at least it did at that time. So I had to explain to EVERY potential employer as to why I was discharged. Most employers still discriminated based on sexual orientation at the time.

Once I finally did find a job it was in the manufacturing industry. And then two years after starting that job, it was shipped off to Mexico due to NAFTA. For this I will never forgive EITHER Clinton for the same reason - she is claiming his "experience" as her own. - This actually happened TWICE!

And then came the 1996 election. I voted AGAINST Clinton, because my partner and I had been together for 5 years at that point and what does Bill do? He signs DOMA - Defense of Marriage Act. He made it ILLEGAL for the federal government to recognize my partner and I as a couple. My partner and I have now been together for 17 years and we are still not recognized by our government. For this I will NEVER forgive the Clintons - again she is claiming his "experience" as her own.

I don't care what she says about repealing DADT and only PART of DOMA (not the entire bill), I simply DO NOT TRUST THE CLINTONS because THEY sold me and MY family out more than ONCE! For that I will NEVER forgive THEM for!; May 09, 2008 10:25 PM
Richard said...: Ed, I am not sure I want to be able to meet racism with such equanimity. I admire the sentiment, but I do not know that I can apply it to this situation. I would love to be able to come here and have a civil discussion with you and the others I mentioned, but when I feel like this thread is being dominated by the few racists and religious bigots who spew their hatred and vitriol amid insults and insane ramblings. Our insightful discussions are being drowned out by a very few (three?) people, and I see no hope for improvement.; May 09, 2008 10:33 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Richard said...
". . . but I do not think referring to "black voters" or "black people" is offensive;"

Richard,

It all depends on context. Aunt Jean is not making such references in a context of respect.

And once she realizes that I'm a middle-aged, gay, male of Northern European descent (German, Dutch, Irish, English, Swiss, French, Scotch, and probably others), I'm sure I'll get blasted for being a 'woman-hating' and 'sinful' person by a couple of our more 'colorful' posters here.

I'm sure I've heard all the derogatory terms, though, so it most likely won't ruffle any of my feathers. If I'm lucky, someone might call me a 'mongrel'! Oh, the opportunity to be able to retort to that one!! (Hint - don't even go there, Aunt Jean, if you know what's good for you.)

Mike; May 09, 2008 10:35 PM
Independent Voter said...: Mike, Hello to my fellow mongrel...LOL

Dave; May 09, 2008 10:45 PM
ed iglehart said...: Shang shan jo shui

知者不言。言者不知。; May 09, 2008 10:46 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Aunt Jean-

I understand that you don't trust Senator Obama, but I can't remember if I've ever heard 'why' you don't.

Perhaps you could explain to me the reasons.; May 09, 2008 10:47 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Live stream for Obama rally in Oregon. It will start in just a little bit :)

http://www.kval.com/news/content/16834976.html

Good music to listen to until he takes the stage!; May 09, 2008 10:53 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Dave,

Woof! VBG

Mike; May 09, 2008 10:55 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Mike in maryland what exactly is that statement suppose to mean. If you are gay I don't care it's your business not mine. Besides my x brother-in-law's nephew is gay and is a very nice guy. So what has that got to do with anything? Also what is the threat if you know what's good for you? Please clarify! Jean; May 09, 2008 10:57 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Aunt Jean said...
". . .what is the threat if you know what's good for you? Please clarify!"

Aunt Jean, Aunt Jean, Aunt Jean:

If you are as smart as you have tried to portray yourself, you know what I meant.

If you are as unknowing of reality as you come across in some of your posts, it isn't polite to spell out what I meant.

Mike; May 09, 2008 11:02 PM
Aunt Jean said...: leah yes I have said why I don't trust Obama.the list is long just take a look at who he's friends and assocs with. Plus the off his rocker wright. No he's not responsible for what wright said but he did sit there for 16 to 20 years listening to that. Yes he has admitted to hearing some things. Is there not other good churchs that he could go to? Plus there are still things that I can come up with but I believe this is enough. Oh yeah by the way you sat there and said we don't say those things on this blog but there has been some people on here that has called me a pardon the french G## DA## bigot BIT##. I don't hear you say anything so please don't ask me to reframe from words if it doesn't apply to everyone.Jean; May 09, 2008 11:07 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Mike in maryland just pulling your leg. I don't scare easy. lol Jean; May 09, 2008 11:09 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Aunt Jean said: "Oh yeah by the way you sat there and said we don't say those things on this blog but there has been some people on here that has called me a....."
_______________

Jean-
I went to bed last last around 2am and didn't turn my computer on today until after 2pm - so I was off the board here for over 12 hours. When I came to this site today there were 100's of comments and I did not read them all and just skipped down to the newest of them. So you cannot blame me for not saying something to anyone that might have offend 'you'. I take responsibility for only 'me'. Now I must go watch the Obama rally - I'll be back later. Ciao!; May 09, 2008 11:23 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Jim thank you for your post. You are a swell guy. Jean; May 09, 2008 11:37 PM
Yamaka said...: "Yam for example could not be persuaded to change his / her opinion no matter how logical you are with him - no matter what "name" we may give him."

Oregon:

You don't have the experience or understanding to persuade to change me.

Your RodentMouse from maryland tried hard; he is a piece of refuse - you can also join with him!

BTW, your Skinny Guy with a Funny Name went to Columbia and Harvard on Affirmative Action. Where did you go? To some pedestrian school/college where "elitists" are produced dime a dozen?

Semi-educated crowd cannot understand the intelligence of ordinary people, you morons!

:-(; May 09, 2008 11:55 PM
ed iglehart said...: Leah,

Thanks for the link. Barack may be on Eastern time, but I'm on GMT. We're both tired, but he's hoarse (understandably)

God Bless and time for a few zzzzzzzs.

xx
ed; May 10, 2008 12:01 AM
Yamaka said...: "Yamakamikaze - Be careful the next time you call Senator Obama 'the Manchurian Candidate'."

rodentmousefrommd:

Just tell me Who are the true Sponsors of your Manchurian Candidate?

Or maybe I should call him the Trojan Horse sent my some sinister force to destroy the Party from bottom up! lol

:-(; May 10, 2008 12:02 AM
Independent Voter said...: Yamakaka, how was the KKK meeting tonight?; May 10, 2008 12:22 AM
Diane said...: He is a freshman senator. That's all he is.

This isn't about being black, it's about being green.; May 10, 2008 12:36 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: SurveyUSA did a "re-poll" of California and said that if the primary were held today...

Obama 49
Clinton 43

http://cbs5.com/politics/poll.clinton.obama.2.720136.html

OBAMA will not have any problem winning all the big states!!!; May 10, 2008 12:40 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Spot-

There is no rule that someone even has to be a senator or governor to be the president ;)

Obama '08; May 10, 2008 12:42 AM
Ariane said...: (thought i sent this yesterday (Thurs.) but i guess the word verification did not work)

I agree with Ryan that I would like to tone down accusations of racism. and I would add sexism. While those things are a factor I do not think it is right or helpful when people (which I've seen a lot more on other boards)
accuse anyone not for Obama of racism, or anyone not for Clinton of sexism.

Or the other way round- - accusing people voting FOR a minority or woman of racism/ sexism. Ryan said: "Racism, as I see it, is _not_ voting for someone because of their race (being different than your own). Voting for your own race does not mean you are racist, but it is if you say you voted against the other guy because of his race."

What I agree with there is that there is at least a difference in voting FOR vs voting AGAINST based on race (or gender). I can understand some people labelling both as racism / sexism since in both cases there is a choice based on race / gender. But it is a difference of degree and in my opinion it is a BIG difference- - particularly when the "voting FOR" is for an historic first. I don't think people voting for Hillary because they want to finally see a woman president, or people voting for Barack because they want to finally see a (part) Black president, are showing nearly as much prejudice as someone voting against a candidate because they don't want a female or Black president.

Not that I think it is right to vote FOR someone only because of race (or for that matter gender). but that is not what's going on. If a Black candidate came along who was opposed to the things the majority of Af-Am voters have usually been for, and they voted for the person in huge numbers, THEN that would be a fair accusation. But if it were a matter of race being the biggest factor in their vote, African American voters would have voted for previous black candidates in as high a numbers as they have voted for Obama- - but they haven't. And I don't think Condi Rice would get nearly as big a percent of the black vote because she's so associated with the Bush admin and neocon policies, because of how she ignored the threat that Al Quaeda would attack in the US; she has not seemed to disagree with Bush or stand up to him even when he needed it.

Also, if African Americans were so "racist" I think they would have been for Obama from the time he announced; instead the majority were for Hillary Clinton.

Ryan also pointed out how African Americans have in past elections voted in large numbers for white candidates and how some white candidates like Bill Clinton got a VERY high percentage of the black vote, like 85%.; May 10, 2008 12:47 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Spot said...
"He is a freshman senator. That's all he is."

Abraham Lincoln served for two terms in the Illinois state House, for two years as a US Congressman, lost his reelection bid, and then ten years later lost a Senate race.

I'm sure you think that Abraham Lincoln was totally unqualified to have been a candidate for President at one of the greatest crisis points in US history, don't you?

I'm sure you would consider Abraham Lincoln to have been one of the least important Presidents of all we've had?

Or maybe you base a candidate's qualifications on a long resume, maybe something like:

State representative - 6 years
US Congressman - 10 years
Ambassador to Russia - 3 years
United States Senator - 10 years
Secretary of State - 4 years
Minister to Britain - 3 years

The candidate? James Buchanan, elected as the 15th President.

How much consideration does Buchanan get by anyone when they rank Presidents? Not very much.

Mike; May 10, 2008 12:58 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Ariane,

I have seen and experienced a lot of what you stated about racism and voting for or against a person based on that factor.

I live in Maryland. In 1988, the Republicans put up Alan Keyes as the Republican candidate for Senate, to run against Senator Paul Sarbanes. Keys got about 38% of the vote, most of it from the most conservative areas of the state, which also are the areas of least minority. African-American voted overwhelmingly for Sarbanes.

In 1992, Keyes again ran for Senate, winning the primary against 12 other (non-minority) candidates. That year, he ran against Senator Mikulski in the GE. Keyes received 28% of the vote, and again, the majority of his vote came from the areas of least minority.

Illinois saw the results of his race against Senator Obama in 1994. How many votes did he get from Chicago and Cook County, and how many did he get from the more conservative, almost nonexistant minority, down-state districts?

BTW - sorry Illinois, but we don't want the idiot Keyes back in Maryland. You're stuck with him until you can find another state to pawn him off onto. VBG

Mike; May 10, 2008 1:18 AM
Diane said...: "Or maybe you base a candidate's qualifications on a long resume, maybe something like:"

More than 3 years, with 2.5 running for another office.

Obama supporters spend more time deflecting facts than it takes me to post them.

He is too young, too inexperienced, too weak, and soooo gullible that he believes what you all are telling him.

He is just not ready for this position and no argument can change that fact.; May 10, 2008 1:22 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Great leaders of our time under the age of 50

John F. Kennedy was inaugurated when he was 43
Robert F. Kennedy was running for president when he was 43
Martin Luther King when he was assassinated was only 39

Senator Obama will be inaugurated January 2009 when he will be 47

OBAMA / Kathleen Sebelius '08
.; May 10, 2008 1:29 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Spot said...
". . . no argument can change that fact."

Spot,

Your opinion is just that. Your opinion.

Just because it is your opinion does NOT make it fact.

One of the greatest leaders of all time was 20 years old when he took the reins of government. Many considered him too young, too inexperienced, to lead.

His name? We know him as Alexander the Great.

Mike; May 10, 2008 1:30 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Spot-

Obama:

-Graduate of Columbia and Harvard

-First African-American president of the Harvard Law Review

-Graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law; Degree in International Relations

-Declined high paying job and instead worked in poor communities

-Law professor at University of Chicago; Civil rights attorney

-Taught the Constitution, Believes in the Constitution, will OBEY the Constitution
-Illinois State senator for 8 years passing healthcare for 150,000 people, ethics reform, videotaping interrogations, racial profiling reform, etc.

-U.S. Senator; Senate Foreign Relations Committee, bills including weapons threat, reduction, gov't transparency, lobbyist reforms, veteran's disability help, etc.

-Predicted Iraq troubles from the start and voiced his opposition

-Leadership that brings people to together: Democrats, Republicans, Independents

-A person of wisdom, honesty, compassion, integrity

-Great speaker that inspires hope

That's good enough for me; May 10, 2008 1:33 AM
suzihussein22 said...: cont...I have worditis after catching up on "The Days of our DemConWatch."

PRDude-Hi. Thanks so much for your insider's perspective.

Bob in Vancouver-Hope you've thawed out up there. Could you tell me the average office wait, length of time before the initial consultations with specialists, and a website that might have any of those stats? Thank you.

NYT and WP confirms HuffPost's info that the McCains' didn't vote for Bush in 2000. Talk about a sore loser.

Oregon Dem-Hello. I actually tested strongest with Thompson on that. How embarrassing! On a side note, my husband and I are studying SE Oregon as a possible place to move to. Would you recommend it? My husband's first choice is Missoula, MO but that's definitely too cold for me.

jpsedona-That research is amazing. You and several others also. That is dedication, not shallow partisanship.

Yamaka- Satire is one thing, but we are smart enough to ignore the worn-out smear that Obama isn't Christian. I saw a "poll" about 4 months ago that guessed about 25% of registered voters are atheists, so that's not relative anyway. Church is separate from state. I won't deny God, but I won't cast stones either. I have more than one mote in my eye.
You might be interested to read that my husband and I are doing a cultural exchange with a prince from Saudi Arabia who is going to college here in TN. We've loaned him a copy of the Bible and he's loaned us a copy of the Qu'ran. We have already learned that's sacrilege to let a holy book touch the floor.

Somebody mentioned restrictions on former Presidents being able to run as VP. I don't remember that one in political science class.

An article at CNN Political Ticker says the RNC has started an anti-Obama site. Does anyone know how McCain voted on the Fair Pay Act? I didn't have the magic code word at progectvotesmart.

Other options as VP-my very own Gov. Bredeson has sure been trying to get attention on a SD primary. Is he trying to get himself into the national political scene? We're not too happy about him and his wife trying to enlarge the Gov. Mansion.

Thanks to those who post without strong language. I never know when my kids may be able to see it. They are very interested in the direction our country is going and my son is already involved in the school council in middle school. He wrote a speach about Constitutional liberty on his own and understands why we should thank our veterans for their sacrifices.; May 10, 2008 1:40 AM
Aunt Jean said...: leah those wasn't his they were someone elses and they let him present them to help build him up. Jean; May 10, 2008 2:30 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Aunt Jean said...
"leah those wasn't his they were someone elses and they let him present them to help build him up."

Aunt Jean,

Got any proof of your assertion? Or is that just something you heard and it agrees with your [already formulated] opinion, so it must be 'gospel'.

Citation from legitimate sites would be preferred. Legitimate is NOT Faux News, Drudge, or the [so-called] Free Republic. It also does not include Lush Rimbaugh and similar ilk.

Mike; May 10, 2008 2:49 AM
Squirrel said...: Leah, thank you for answering my post above about the US constitution.

It just seems to me that a few people who post here have actually forgotten the wording, and more importantly the meaning of the constitution.

Further more it would also seem that some would be much better suited to the Republican Party rather than the Democratic Party. That is if at least one of them isn't already?

Well upward and onward, Obama picks up the add-on from Utah (as expected), that works out at +10 SD's for Obama yesterday and only +1 for Clinton. Clintons lead in SD's is now down to only 1.5 superdelegates! (Remember when it was nearly 100 back in early February?)

So it looks like today could be the day when the SD's tip the balance and Obama will take the lead.; May 10, 2008 6:20 AM
Richard said...: I would like to expand on my earlier post suggesting Sen. Bill Bradley as a potential running mate for Sen. Barack Obama. There are a number of reasons I think this would be an excellent match:

1) Name Recognition - Bradley is an Olympic gold medalist, Hall of Fame basketball player, former US Senator, and very viable Presidential candidate in the 2000.

2) Likability - Bill Bradley is by all accounts an engaging and likable guy.

3) Geography - Bradley would put New Jersey completely out of question for McCain in the General Election. His proximity to PA makes him a well-known quantity in eastern PA media markets.

4) Experience - Bradley had a 16 year career in the Senate where he served on numerous committees including committees related to national security.

5) Liberal Cred - Bradley has established a reputation as a progressive and reformer in the Senate, where he led efforts to reform the tax code, was a strong opponent of Reagan's tax cuts, etc. He was one of the first to back Howard Dean in 2004, and has been a strong Obama supporter since January.

I think for all these reasons and more Bradley would truly complement (as opposed to balance) the Obama ticket.; May 10, 2008 10:05 AM
dsimon said...: Yamaka: 1.BHO Jr wants to give drivers' license to illegals, a true instinct of a bleeding Liberal, most American Electorates hate.

2. He wants to lift the income cap on SS taxation, another instinct of a bleeding Liberal, most American Electorates hate.

HRC DOES not want to do both.

Will this suffice to convince you that BHO is NOT HRC on policy issues and ideology?

Actually, no. Neither are far-left proposals. The point of giving drivers licenses to illegal immigrants is to make them easier to track. It's not a way to make them citizens. There are many people who say it would be a good national security move so there are fewer living in the shadows. It's not as big a deal as conservatives would have you believe. Reasonable people can differ on the matter, but it doesn't make him "far-left."

As for Social Security, the tax is presently regressive. Lifting the cap would make it a flat tax. That's not outrageously liberal; it's not even "progressive." Also, the system will lose its solvency unless something is done. The only choices are cutting benefits, increasing taxes, or raising the benefits age (or some combination). Clinton has proposed...to avoid the question entirely.

So no, neither of these proposals are far-left; or they're not as "far-left" as requiring a mandate for health insurance. If that's the best Obama critics have got, he's a moderate Democrat.; May 10, 2008 10:11 AM
dsimon said...: Leah: SurveyUSA did a "re-poll" of California and said that if the primary were held today...

Obama 49
Clinton 43

OBAMA will not have any problem winning all the big states!!!

Leah, you're right that Obama will win California, but not because of the poll you cite.

How Clinton and Obama do against each other has no bearing on how either of them will do against McCain. Using primary results to predict general election outcomes is a specious argument used repeatedly by the Clinton campaign.

If the argument is that Obama won't win big Democratic states, then the starting place should be head-to-head polls of the Democratic candidates against McCain, not primary (or polling) results of the Democrats against each other.

But Obama will win CA; the polling data show both candidates up substantially against McCain (and I'd suspect that would have been the case at the time of the CA primary too).; May 10, 2008 10:46 AM
dsimon said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 10, 2008 10:46 AM
dsimon said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 10, 2008 10:47 AM
dsimon said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 10, 2008 10:48 AM
dsimon said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; May 10, 2008 10:52 AM
ed iglehart said...: Dsimon,

Thanks for this
from your blog.

Yamaka, Required reading.

I'm truly sorry man's dominion,
Has broken nature's social union,
An' justifies that ill opinion,
Which makes thee startle
At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
An' fellow-mortal!
............
Still thou art blest, compar'd wi' me
The present only toucheth thee:
But, Och! I backward cast my e'e.
On prospects drear!
An' forward, tho' I canna see,
I guess an' fear!

Robert Burns, R.I.P. (To a Mouse); May 10, 2008 11:11 AM
ed iglehart said...: "Hence it is, that we every Day find Men in Conversation contending warmly on some Point in Politicks, which, altho' it may nearly concern them both, neither of them understand any more than they do each other." -- Ben Franklin 1729

知者不言。言者不知。; May 10, 2008 11:17 AM
Benjamin Spector said...: According to an article today in the new York Times, Secret Service senior staff may be bigots. If this is true, do they really care about protecting a future black president. Will they fiddle why Obama is murdered?

The New York Times article allegedly exposes deep racial bigotry in the US Secret Service. This includes a noose being put into the room of a black secret service trainer. Donald White, who heads the Presidential Protective Detail, sent e-mail "jokes" about interracial mariages to Kurt Douglass, an agent in charge of the Secret Service office in Cincinnati. Also,a March 3, 2003, message describing Jesse Jackson as the “Righteous Reverend” was passed among several Secret Service supervisors. The message, about a missile striking an airplane in which Mr. Jackson and his wife were traveling, concludes, it “certainly wouldn’t be a great loss and it probably wouldn’t be an accident either.”

As the acts of bigotry are being investigated, perhaps the secret service may "overlook" and not fully investigate serious threats against the democratic party's apparent nominee who has a good chance of being the next president of the United States.

Perhaps the bigots in the secret service, wanting to keep the status quo and not let "darky" into the hallowed halls of the White House may sleep at the job, and the candidate of change may be "assasinated".

This crime must be averted. I have no doubt that the secret service "agents" who are now guarding Senator Obama are loyal to him and of the highest character. However, their bosses may not be communicating leads and substantial threats. The secret service higher ups may actually be putting their own agents lives at risk as well as the Senator's life.

I understant the moderators of this site talk regularly with the campaigns.

Please, Please, urge Senator Obama to get his own people to protect him. He cannot rely on an organization steeped in bigotry. Again, I admire the actual agents who guard Obama, but their bosses may not communicate to them the information they need to investigate every possible threat to the Senator.

Just one more thing before I link to the actual article from the New York Times.

During the Texas primary, I remember a shocking incident when either the Dallas Police or the Secret Service stopped checking people entering an Obama rally for concealed weapons. In that rally Obama was a sitting duck and anyone could have shot him down. How far was the rally site from the Texas Book Depository, I don't know. Maybe this was an effort of the bigots in the highest chambers of the secret service to do away with Obama before he became popular.

My paranoia tells me to say that if I do not post again in a few days, please look for me in a concrete slab somewhere under the new Yankee Stadium.

Here is the actual article from the New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/10/washington/10inquire.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin

New York Times

May 10, 2008

E-Mail Shows Racial Jokes by Secret Service Supervisors

By DAVID JOHNSTON
WASHINGTON —

Secret Service supervisors shared crude sexual jokes and engaged in racially derogatory banter about blacks, and passed around an anecdote about a possible assassination of the Rev. Jesse Jackson, according to internal e-mail disclosed in a federal court filing on Friday by lawyers for black Secret Service agents.

The filing includes 10 e-mail messages that were among documents the agency recently turned over to lawyers for the black agents as part of an increasingly bitter discrimination lawsuit. The messages were written mainly from 2003 through 2005, and were sent to and from e-mail accounts of at least 20 Secret Service supervisors.

The messages offer a glimpse into the darker recesses of an agency known for protecting presidents and other dignitaries but whose culture is regarded as one of the most insular in federal law enforcement.

The disclosure of the messages follows an incident last month in which a noose was found in a room used by a black instructor at a Secret Service training facility in Beltsville, Md. Agency officials said that episode was under internal investigation.

Eric Zahren, a spokesman for the Secret Service, said he would not comment directly on the e-mail but said the agency deplored racially insensitive jokes.

“We are deeply disappointed by any communication or action on the part of our employees that exhibits racial or other insensitivity,” Mr. Zahren said.

Mr. Zahren said the messages were the result of a search of 20 million electronic documents over 16 years. He said that an internal inquiry had been opened and that the inspector general at the Department of Homeland Security, which oversees the Secret Service, had been alerted.

In some of the court documents, the senders of the e-mail messages are identified only by the jobs they currently occupy and the rank they held when the messages were sent. For example, an Oct. 9, 2003, message referring to a “Harlem Spelling Bee,” ridiculing black slang, was sent by Thomas Grupski, then assistant director for protective operations, who, according to the filing, now heads the Office of Government Liaison and Public Affairs.

A March 3, 2003, message describing Mr. Jackson as the “Righteous Reverend” was passed among several Secret Service supervisors. The message, about a missile striking an airplane in which Mr. Jackson and his wife were traveling, concludes, it “certainly wouldn’t be a great loss and it probably wouldn’t be an accident either.”

Another message contains what one Secret Service official said was a joke referring to interracial sex. The joke circulated in February and March 2003. It was sent, according to the lawsuit, by Donald White, who heads the Presidential Protective Detail, to Kurt Douglass, an agent in charge of the Secret Service office in Cincinnati.

The legal skirmishing in the discrimination suit has heated up in recent months, with Magistrate Judge Deborah A. Robinson rebuking the Secret Service for failing to produce documents and for destroying relevant records and e-mail.

Judge Robinson had ordered the agency to turn over the documents by late March, but the e-mail disclosed in the court filing on Friday was not turned over to lawyers for the agents until late April.

E. Desmond Hogan, a lawyer for the black agents, said the agents were “shocked but not surprised by the late production of significant evidence of racism at high levels in the Secret Service.”

“The government’s delay,” Mr. Hogan said, “follows a pattern of the Secret Service stonewalling plaintiffs and ignoring court orders, depriving African-American agents of the fundamental evidence of race discrimination that is key to their claims.”

The lawsuit, which has dragged on through years of litigation, was filed in 2000 by 10 black agents who charged that they were unfairly denied promotions. The agency employs about 3,200 agents, about 10 percent of whom are black.; May 10, 2008 11:37 AM
Oregon Dem said...: Softspoken:

Did you mean that you were thinking of moving to SW Oregon? I ask because there is basically nothing in SE Oregon (high desert with <0.5 people per square mile).

SW Oregon is nice (warm in summer and not too cold in winter. Like most of Oregon however it does rain alot.

I moved to the spot I think is the most beautiful in Oregon - the Hood River Valley. Gets enough rain to stay green, but not as much as the coast or Willamette Valley. Besdies Hood River is a pretty liberal dynamic place with a population pretty evenly divided between the old timers, aging hippies and the young wind surfer / skiier crowd.

Just saw the most recent poll and cross tabs for Oregon the other day and I am predicting that Obama will get 30 (and with the add on delegate 31) when all the votes are counted. That would leave Hillary with 22. If any of you serious delegate counters want to know: the reason I say 30 is that I beleive that Blumenauer will be able to deliver 6 out of the 9 delegates in CD 3.

I am actually looking forward to seeing Oregon put Obama over the top on the 20th.

On a different matter: Has anyone heard the rumor that Clinton (as part of her bowing out) will demand that Obama pick Wesley Clark as his running mate?; May 10, 2008 11:41 AM
ed iglehart said...: Some more required reading for those with strong stomachs. Yamaka, you should take notice for the benefit of your claimed investing prowess.

It occurs to me, after watching Obama speak last night about folk being thrown out of their homes, that, since there seems to be a glut of unsold, unoccupied houses:
"home prices are now deflating at a 32% annual rate, versus 8% six months ago. And the deflation is sure to intensify as the 4.6 million new and existing homes still sitting on the market find a clearing price."

She exhorts us to "Think of it...that 4.6 million inventory is nearly double the 2.6 million average inventory in the 20 years leading up to the bubble. More disturbing still, a record 2.27 million of those homes are sitting empty!" Well, leery of getting her mad, we followed instructions and thought of it, and, we're sure she'll be pleased to learn, we felt an appropriate shiver go up our spine.

Can't we see that cheaper houses isn't an entirely bad thing, especially for the young folk looking to buy their first home?

xx
ed; May 10, 2008 11:43 AM
ed iglehart said...: Wesley Clark? God help us!

Ben,

Get an editor, a blog, and learn how to post links. Then folk might take the trouble to read what you've got to say.

知者不言。言者不知。; May 10, 2008 11:51 AM
Aunt Jean said...: squirrel you need to learn to count yesterday obama got 9 not 10. Which is still good. Jean; May 10, 2008 12:09 PM
Aunt Jean said...: benjamin spector all the race issues are so boring and most have no validity. I'm not saying that they should tell jokes they shouldn't but have you ever heard any polock jokes come on get real it gets OLDDDDD.Everytime someone says anything even when they don't mean anything by it they get called a racist. GET A LIFE!!!! People have a RIGHT to say and think what they want it's people like Obama supporters that want to take that right away.Jean; May 10, 2008 12:22 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Oh by the way do you not think that Obama hasn't said some racist remarks about Clinton but I guess because of his skin color that's ok what a joke, Jean; May 10, 2008 12:24 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Let me make this real clear about the skin color because I know that you obama supporters will think that I was talking about obama it was clinton that I was talking about. that is was ok to say racist remarks against Clinton. Jean; May 10, 2008 12:26 PM

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