Democratic Convention Watch: Open Thread

Tuesday, April 01, 2008

Open Thread

WE'VE MOVED! Democratic Convention Watch is now at http://www.DemocraticConventionWatch.com

Who's going to win, who has a better chance against McCain, or whatever else is on your mind.

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Leah Texas4Obama said...: greywolf said:

as for the second numbers game proposed by you, lets see.. final number 2375 by sunday midnight.
_______________

What are you talking about?; June 06, 2008 5:13 PM
greywolf said...: apissedant
it is clear you and I will not agree on this, but that is why we have different minds. It would be terrible if we all thought the same dont you think, such a boring world we would have.
I do respect your views, but there are always in existance ways to make something work as long as there are open minds and the willingness to change. Other wise its a waste of time to discuss anything.

I personally do not like being forced into a party line, I had to switch parties from indipendent to democrat just to vote for Obama in the primary...now I will be switching back because the oregon ge is an open process. I would preferr to be able to vote in the primary for whom ever I wanted vs having to vote party lines. There were several Republicans and Independents on the Oregon primary ballot that I was not able to vote for because of the way things go here... but I decided the primary was more important because it was a national issue vs state issue. But yes I did my home work on all the candidates befor I made up my mind... that is what is referred to being a informed, aware and concerned voter. I look at those issues that are important to me, and what I think are best for where I live as well as national issues then make my decision based on my research of each candidate. I knew about the Rev Wright videos before they were made public, I listened to them long before. When the media spin too hold, it became clear to me that the media as a whole supported the clintons, but by that time I had already made my decision they were the worst for this country. Just my perspective.
we can not keep the idiots from voting but hope and pray that enough informed voters do vote.; June 06, 2008 5:17 PM
greywolf said...: Leah Texas4Obama said...
Hippolytus said...

Here's a little game I'd like to offer-- How many total delegates will Obama have by midnight this Sunday?
Groundrules:
1) 1 entry (and first entry) per entrant.
2) Entry must be made before the earlier of midnight EST on June 8, 2008 or entry on DCW page of 50 or fewer uncommitted delegates remaining.

I'll go first, and guess 2280. (I hope he exceeds 2300!)

sorry my bad I thought you proposed this one.. I just read it again.. my humble appologies.; June 06, 2008 5:19 PM
greywolf said...: Leah Texas4Obama said...
Attention to everyone-

Would someone that has NOT yet submitted a number for our delegate contest here please pick the number 2302

So when is the end time for this one? Friday night.. saturday, sunday..or when.. Lol I am getting confused..which is quite normal lately.; June 06, 2008 5:21 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: JayW-

The highest number I have seen so far is the one DCW posted last night - Obama 2233 - they will post an update late tonight. Obama's website number is still not updated.; June 06, 2008 5:21 PM
greywolf said...: okay getting away from the computer for a while.. my feet a freezing. Need to get under a blankie for awhile. Id turn on the heat but cant afford the resulting electric bill. Temp here on 6 june is a wopping 41 with a 20mph wind. House is actually 53 interior temp. Sucks to be unemployed.; June 06, 2008 5:23 PM
greywolf said...: Leah Texas4Obama said...
Attention to everyone-

Would someone that has NOT yet submitted a number for our delegate contest here please pick the number 2302

Leah, wow, your being mean now.. I am shocked. You want someone to lock me in to asingle number now. Gezzz... whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... im gonna tell my mommy that you are being mean.. lmao Sorry leah.. but I really wanted 2300, it was a number that I have had in my mind for a long time..but since you took it first I took the next best number in my mind...lol; June 06, 2008 5:26 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: greywolf said: "Need to get under a blankie for awhile."
_____

Be sure to have your mommy tuck you in after you tell her that I am a meanie ;) LOL; June 06, 2008 5:32 PM
jean said...: Have fun with your final counts.
Did anyone read the Commentary on CNN It's time for more Hillary Clintons?
I know you hate her and JayW will go nuclear but it is a thought.
Been in business and corporate a long time. It is frustrating.
jean; June 06, 2008 5:37 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: jean-

There is absolutely nothing wrong with more women in powerful positions. I look forward to it. I hope Kathleen Sebelius is picked as VP and then she runs and becomes president in 2016.
But NOT Hillary Clinton. People need to start to realize that people were not against Hillary because she is a woman - I for one was against her because she IS Hillary Clinton. And in the beginning I was not against her at all - I was FOR Obama. There is a difference. Then during the past few months her 'actions' and character are what made me denounce and reject her.

Obama/Sebelius '08; June 06, 2008 5:48 PM
jean said...: Wow
"There is nothing wrong with more women in powerful positions. I look forward to it."
How graceful and kind of you.
I guess you just said it all.
I will make sure my daughter and son do not share your generousity.
They will expect equal pay equal work and equal respect.
This is not a gift but a right.
Amazing.; June 06, 2008 5:58 PM
jean said...: Gotta go
Son is going to Baseball and the daughter is doing Basketball(some girls do play AND PLAY HARD)
JEAN; June 06, 2008 6:00 PM
jean said...: Freudian Slip?; June 06, 2008 6:03 PM
Siroco said...: 2302; June 06, 2008 6:17 PM
apissedant said...: Greywolf,
You know I respect your opinion and realize that you are one of the few educated and conscientious voters in this country. You should also realize that I do not expect or desire you to have the exact same views as me on every issue. I do, however, believe that you and I have the ability to educate each other, and probably come up with some middle ground that we could agree more on. I also love to argue.

That being said, you must realize that being an informed voter places you in the minority within this nation. You should also realize, that had we all voted at the same time, Hillary Clinton would be our nominee. This is for multiple reasons... of course, the uninformed voters that would have only known her of the candidates that ran. The other issue, is one I can personally speak of. I would have voted for John Edwards in a heart beat. I of course did not vote for John Edwards, because he had dropped out already. Even if he hadn't dropped out, I still wouldn't have voted for John Edwards, despite the fact that he was my favorite candidate. I saw a very close two way race emerging, and I had the opportunity to throw my vote towards the one that I liked the most. I picked Obama quite easily, because I don't like Hillary Clinton. I knew about Obama, and I had watched his speeches, but I was not totally sold on him yet. Since that vote, he has more than earned the vote I gave him. His response to the Wright controversy, and the rural Pennsylvania gaffe, made me absolutely love the man.
The fact is, that if the primary was all held in one day, about 20% of this country would have gone to Edwards. About 40% would have gone to Clinton. About 30% would have gone to Obama, and the other 10% would have been split between the rest of them. I would NOT be happy with that outcome. I like the fact that my first choice was able to make the wise decision and throw his support behind my second choice.
I could give you the open primary one. I am not a stickler on that, I just have seen some problems with that. Indiana is a great example. They had 400,000 more people vote in the Democratic primary than they had vote for Kerry in 2004. The state is not substantially bigger, and is still a Republican stronghold. A lot of people came out to vote to throw a monkey wrench in the democratic process. I can live with those odd occurrences, but I could not live with Clinton being my nominee. That's why the state by state system is more attractive to me. It let me have a second choice.; June 06, 2008 6:21 PM
apissedant said...: You know, it doesn't seem like you're typing that much when you are writing in this little box, but then you post it. You realize you took up half the page, and you feel like a dick and assume no one will actually read that crap. Or maybe that's just me.; June 06, 2008 6:26 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: jean-

It is beyond me how you found what I said negative. I am a woman and I believe women should get equal pay, equal respect, etc. I DID NOT say that they shouldn't.

Geezzz - I say I look forward to seeing more women in powerful positions and you jump on me - go figure!

Obama/Sebelius '08; June 06, 2008 6:27 PM
apissedant said...: leah,
The equal pay thing I think is mostly a made up issue. I always get called a sexist for saying it, but I still think it is true. There is some decent research to actually back me up on that. Most women take off time to raise their children and have babies and all of that stuff. Men don't. We neglect our children and keep on working through it. He or she who works more hours and is more reliable for the workforce deserves more pay. If that is a man or a woman, I don't care.
I say this only because they bastardize the numbers in the studies showing women making 75% of what men make or whatever. They say, "comparable" jobs, and don't compare hours, years of service, or anything like that. There is research done by a group of doctors specifically in the doctor field, and they speak specifically about the differences in male and female doctors based on the study they did. The women often worked in small family practices with more regular hours, saw fewer patients, and overall worked less hours. If this were worked into the equation, the pay was almost completely even.; June 06, 2008 6:33 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: ..

frstan - Thank you!!!

Hippolytus-

Don't forget to add to your list:

greywolf 2301
frstan 2302
RoadKill 2350
Dave in NC 2366

.; June 06, 2008 6:55 PM
Hippolytus said...: Here is another revised list of the entries I could find that were posted for the contest :

Keryl 2450
JayW 2424
beryl 2375
Dave in NC 2366
roadkill 2350
vwis 2333
Oregon Dem 2331
ed inglehart 2323
Squirrel 2321
Emit R Detshaw 2317
greywolf 2301
Leah 2300
Richard 2285
apissedant 2282
Uncle John 2281
Hippolytus 2280
Mike in MD 2268.5
Emma 2268
November politics 2265
Aunt Jean 2253
michael from MN 2250
tmessz 2246
softspoken 2240
Kujo 2235
justin 2230
RobH 2222

There has been some skirmishing among us that seems to have been resolved, but I'll offer these RBC Advisory Committee rulings for what they are worth:
1) greywolf - Leah picked 2300 first, and you did not take a specific number. Hence, I've listed you at 2301, as you requested.
2) RobH - Submitting first and only number not taken was stated in the ground rules announcing the contest. We'll have to rely on an honor system to prevent multiple listings, but trust that participants will be governed in spirit as well as the letter of that ground rule.
3) Leah (re: closing contest) - The ground rules also stated when the time for entries would close (ie, when we get to 50 remaining uncommitted supers, and in no event later than the end of the week). The point of this rule was to cut it off to prevent last minute balloting. I suspect that we may get to this point when the Obama site posts supers tonight or tomorrow evening. I'm also checking other news sources and wikipedia for super updates; I think that we should close the contest when there is a credible source suggesting that we have reached that point. wikipedia currently lists 74.5 supers remaining uncommitted, although I'm not wed to that source.

Hope there are no continuing hard feelings or disagreements. Please let me know if anyone has any better ideas.; June 06, 2008 7:31 PM
Hippolytus said...: greywolf,
To avoid any possible confusion, envision yourself sitting in Dianne Feinstein's house in DC this coming Saturday night, around 11:30 pm. The contest winner will be determined by the number of total delegates that Obama has thirty minutes later. The idea is to cut it off by the end of this this week.; June 06, 2008 7:38 PM
Hippolytus said...: Just added frstan (2302:

Keryl 2450
JayW 2424
beryl 2375
Dave in NC 2366
roadkill 2350
vwis 2333
Oregon Dem 2331
ed inglehart 2323
Squirrel 2321
Emit R Detshaw 2317
frstan 2302
greywolf 2301
Leah 2300
Richard 2285
apissedant 2282
Uncle John 2281
Hippolytus 2280
Mike in MD 2268.5
Emma 2268
November politics 2265
Aunt Jean 2253
michael from MN 2250
tmessz 2246
softspoken 2240
Kujo 2235
justin 2230
RobH 2222; June 06, 2008 7:43 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Evening all...time to play catch up again

apissedant-So demanding...I'll play your little respond to the post game.;)

independent voter-Thanks for the info. I had seen that video of Rendell already. I looked up this day in history after I read your trivia...today is also D-Day. I learned that we had two phases to that operation. The first one started after midnight. I only remembered about landing on the shores of Normandy, and most of my history teachers were extensive.

ed iglehart-At least it's an updated picture...and hippolytus-Blazing Saddles-lmao-sorry, it's just been so long since I've seen that movie...hold on while I whip this out...;)

Aunt Jean and Leah seem to live close. Indepent Voter and jean seem to live close...small world, eh?:)

It's gonna be a long night. We had our puppy Sarge demoted to Private this morning. We explain it as neutralizing to the kids.;) He's wimpering and crying off and on. It's a good thing he hadn't heard of Lorena Bobbitt.; June 06, 2008 7:48 PM
ed iglehart said...: Who's this Inglehart person?; June 06, 2008 7:53 PM
Hippolytus said...: sorry, ed. I'll correct it the next time aroind.
~Hippo; June 06, 2008 7:56 PM
RobH said...: Hi Leah and Hippo,

As I read your latest posts, I was tempted to create a new account, with references to some of our favorite characters, like maybe 'Aunt Joan', or 'Yarmulke', or something like that, and quietly post a guess. Maybe late, and with little or no interaction with you all. Just a number.

But I gotta tell ya, with these multi posts, and rules declarations, and.... yeah, SERIOUSNESS... ya' kind took the fun out of it.

I already called myself a weenie for crashing out as a result of putting no effort into it - you know, "self deprecation" - but now you gotta remind me I'm really, really, really excluded. Thanks for that. If I snuck in late, and, like actually won, would you be, like, offended? Actually, now I know what it feels like to be an HRC supporter. I try to change the rules mid-stream ('cause I didn't really read the fine print), and you let me have it.

You DO realize that my three clumped posts to Leah earlier were a joke, right? Is my sense of humor so bad that you didn't get it.; June 06, 2008 7:57 PM
Hippolytus said...: robh,

I understand. Please please free to post fictitious entries like the ones you mention. They may not count, but you can at least participate vicariously. I'd love to see what number folks would ascribe to Yam, if he is not going to enter himself.

Since you are eliminated, and jpsedona is not participating, I may need to add the two of you to the RBC Committee if chaos should break out. Hopefully, that won't be necessary.; June 06, 2008 8:07 PM
Meg said...: OK, so I threw in the number, but I missed the original question. This is the count of delegates for Barack Obama the next POTUS?? By when? And what's the prize? Do I sound like Paris Hilton?

Nobody seems to care about the horse race tomorrow! We are talking Triple Crown! I can't help but think about the way things work out. BIG BROWN could be our next champion and the horse Hillary bet on (the only filly) had to be euthanized. I know. Extremely bad taste.

It's just that I don't see her speech tomorrow as the end. What if there is no end???; June 06, 2008 8:15 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: softspoken22 -

I am surprised that they didn't keep him over night.
I hope he feels better soon.

RobH-

I didn't take offense at anything ;)

GOODNIGHT everyone I'm not feeling well so I am heading to bed.

OBAMA/Sebelius '08; June 06, 2008 8:15 PM
apissedant said...: oh, I want to pretend to be Yam and guess 0. Let me explain my math. Barack Obama campaigned in Florida despite it being against the rules. What's more, this campaign ad spilled over into Cuba, and this violated the trade embargo laws. For this, the RBC must impose a punishment on him, and give him 0 PDs. What's more, when all of the supers realize that his campaign spilled over to Cuba, they will instantly realize the mistake for backing him. Since all of those PDs were invalidated, the SDs will be given double worth. All the SDs will instantly jump onto the Clinton train, and she will win with 3600 delegates by Sunday at noon.; June 06, 2008 8:16 PM
apissedant said...: oh, I forgot this part of his post.

Obama-Bush=2300 delegates-1876 PDs-5000 SDs= -3492 delegates
Clinton=1769+50+18+94+5+19x2+15=3600; June 06, 2008 8:19 PM
Beryl said...: Obama won and Clinton lost. Let it go and get on with fighting a McBush administration.; June 06, 2008 8:19 PM
apissedant said...: beryl,
Who are you arguing with?; June 06, 2008 8:25 PM
Hippolytus said...: p'd ant,
Your guess is entirely plausible (!), but things will have to fall into place 12 hours sooner in order for Yam to claim his prize. ;)
Lest anyone suggest that Yam will say all the delegates, remember that we have some add-ons that won't be named until next week or later.; June 06, 2008 8:31 PM
Meg said...: OK folks, this is totally unrelated to the political state of affairs, but it is an interesting experiment. Try it!

http://tinyurl.com/5lmbw9; June 06, 2008 8:34 PM
suzihussein22 said...: In the spirit of fairness the last couple of days- BREAKING NEWS-

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/obama_clinton_mccain_join_forces

YES WE CAN GET ALONG; June 06, 2008 8:37 PM
Hippolytus said...: Emma,
See greywolf's 5:19 pm post today, which quotes my post announcing the post.
I agree that the contest is meaningless. Fodder for keeping idle minds occupied until something comes along of greater consequence (like Hillary's speech at noon EDT on Saturday).
______
Goodnight, Leah. Sorry that you're feeling under the weather. Sweet dreams.; June 06, 2008 8:37 PM
Karen Anne said...: softspoken22,

Doesn't your vet use post-op pain meds?

Having read one too many "I'm a Hillary supporter and I'm voting McCain" postings, I suddenly had an epiphany.

If Obama loses in 2008, presumably Clinton will run in 2012. I wonder how many Obama supporters they think will vote for her in those circumstances. I wonder how they'll like them apples.; June 06, 2008 9:53 PM
apissedant said...: karen,
I personally choose not to think of that. We can't afford 8 more years of Republicans. We NEED to win this one.

OBAMA 2008!; June 06, 2008 9:59 PM
apissedant said...: emma,
I briefly saw the ape, but for some reason I decided it wasn't strange and just kept counting ball passes. When he asked if I saw anything strange I just thought, "what the heck is he talking about?" But I seriously saw the ape, I'm not sure why I decided that wasn't strange.; June 06, 2008 10:03 PM
Beryl said...: Karen,

I will NEVER vote for Hillary Clinton either in 2008 or 2012 unless an equivalent of Hitler became her running mate. As mentioned before, she had my support. I loved and respected HRC and viewed her as a role model. However, her own behavior during the campaign permanently lost my vote. It is about ethics, integrity, and personal morals for me which are incongruent with voting for HRC.

I believe that people who refuse to vote for Obama have an irrational reason for their position. They have not claimed that he has done anything to offend them or HRC except existing and daring to defeat HRC.; June 06, 2008 10:09 PM
apissedant said...: beryl,
You made a typo. You mean the equivalent of Hitler became her opponent. At least I hope you would not support the Clinton/Hitler 2012 ticket.; June 06, 2008 10:41 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Leah I'll do it since I'm a woman too. We will put him between LOL. 2302. Jean; June 06, 2008 11:48 PM
Aunt Jean said...: beryl not to start trouble but Obama did plenty to offend me.Of course it was done with the help of the media.I have a lot of respect for Hillary Clinton and I always will. The media or the obama supporters will never be able to change my mind about her. Jean; June 06, 2008 11:51 PM
Aunt Jean said...: If Obama loses in Nov. it won't be because of Hillary. Jean; June 06, 2008 11:53 PM
Hippolytus said...: DCW has posted its tally of today's superdelegate endorsements (see its blog archive). Obama picks up 12 today, including 3 switches from Clinton.

Current superdelegate count: Obama 478.5, Clinton 246.5
Total delegate count: Obama 2244, Clinton 1886

By my count, this leaves 65.5 remaining supers (excluding 33 unassigned add-ons).

DCW says this will be its last superdelegate update. I'm concerned that there may be no practical way to determine when we've hit the 50 remaining super mark for closing the contest. Despite my previous posting, perhaps Leah is right that we should close the contest now. I'll assume that this acceptable to everyone, unless a Johnny-come-lately can accompany a contest entry with credible evidence that the entry comes before the 50 super cut-off. Is this clear as mud to everyone?

I'm going to sign off for the evening (I think), but please feel free to post if you have any comments or suggestions.

Don't forget that Hillary speaks at "high noon" on Saturday (EDT).

Good luck to everyone re: this total delegate contest!

~ Hippolytus; June 06, 2008 11:55 PM
Hippolytus said...: Aunt Jean said...

"Leah I'll do it since I'm a woman too. We will put him between LOL. 2302."
________
Sorry, Aunt Jean, but frstan already submitted 2302. Besides, you're already in at 2253 and there is only one entry per customer. Good night and good luck.; June 07, 2008 12:04 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Hipp I thought it was a new contest.boohoo oh well I still like 2253. LOL Jean; June 07, 2008 12:09 AM
tmess2 said...: Well there is not much to do for the next six weeks other than speculate about add-ons, get extremely wonkish on policy (any thoughts on stimulus package round 2 since round 1 was such a rousing success for Bush/McCain), make fun of Republican candidates at the state level (like in my state the Republican Lieutenant Governor's chief of staff getting picked up in a child porn sting), speculate about upcoming state primaries, and rehash the pros and cons of the the 300 potential vp candidates.; June 07, 2008 12:55 AM
apissedant said...: tmess2,
It is amusing really, the whole stimulus package idea. The Republicans are always talking about welfare and how terrible it is. That these people should just go out and get a job, and giving them money doesn't do them or the economy any good. Then when the economy is really really bad, they give everyone a tiny little check for nothing, and they think this will magically fix the economy in a single payment. Apparently welfare doesn't work, but mini-welfare is outstanding!; June 07, 2008 1:29 AM
apissedant said...: Not that extending unemployment benefits is really any better. People need major surgery, not a band-aid. The job market is shrinking, and even those within it have shrinking paychecks. Where are intelligent people like FDR and Alexander Hamilton when you need them?; June 07, 2008 1:31 AM
Hippolytus said...: tmess2,
Are you burning up the phone lines tonight trying to hold additional endorsements to only 2? If so, good luck! VBG
I think a lot of us will be falling to the wayside by the end of tomorrow night.
Catch you tomorrow.
-Hippo; June 07, 2008 1:32 AM
apissedant said...: hipp,
There is also the idea that this is over, they know it is over, and there is no reason to start piling on the pooh. I mean, most trackers stopped counting, because it is pointless. Kind of like a football game where you're ahead by 40 points. At this point, you throw in the third stringers, because it doesn't matter anymore.
In this idea, only the true jackasses would come out and give their endorsement. The rest would realize that at this point, we know who they are voting for.; June 07, 2008 2:00 AM
Beryl said...: "You made a typo. You mean the equivalent of Hitler became her opponent. At least I hope you would not support the Clinton/Hitler 2012 ticket."
You are right. I messed up because I have running-mate on my brain. I REALLY don't want Hillary chosen as Obama's running-mate. The fact that she has no capacity to take responsibility for HER mistakes is one of many reasons I lost respect for her.

"beryl not to start trouble but Obama did plenty to offend me.Of course it was done with the help of the media. I have a lot of respect for Hillary Clinton and I always will. The media or the obama supporters will never be able to change my mind about her. Jean"

Jean,
I have no intentions of attempting to change your mind. Unlike many here, I don't think we need or should try to change minds. I figure that people need to do what they feel is right and should be held responsible for their own actions. I didn't vote for Bush but those who did should take responsibility for all of his misdeeds -- including this dreadful war.

Out of curiosity what EXACTLY did Obama do to offend you? Not his supporters or people he knows -- Obama himself. I'm still guessing that it will be his audacity to stand up against the Clintons.

Beryl (who gets bitter sometimes); June 07, 2008 2:11 AM
Hippolytus said...: ap'dant,
Can't disagree with you re: the piling on, with the possible exception of the Pelosi Club or quasi-Pelosi Club (folks like my Rep., Lynn Woolsey, who said after endorsing Clinton that she would switch to back the winner). I agree, however, that the score is irrelevant at this point.
If Hillary wants to exit with some class and undo some of the self-inflicted damage, she might consider being the one to put his name into nomination and moving to announce him by unanimous consent. I realize that I'm probably whistling Dixie, but I think it would be an astute thing to do politically vis-a-vis her future prospects. She's got soem fence mending to do, obviously.; June 07, 2008 2:24 AM
Hippolytus said...: aissedant said:
"Where are intelligent people like FDR and Alexander Hamilton when you need them?"
______
You sound like me the other night lamenting the absence of Pat Moynihan.; June 07, 2008 2:28 AM
Beryl said...: "If Obama loses in Nov. it won't be because of Hillary. Jean "

Oddly, I agree with this.

Even though Hillary gave the RNC much of their negative talking points, her actions will have no importance to Obama's success nor failure.

Hillary's old-style negative politics will make it tough for Obama but it also caused her to lose, IMO. She reaped what she sowed -- big time. (Payback is a b*tch, Karma, what goes around comes around.) He did the same thing to HRC as he did to McCain -- he highlighted her accomplishments even when she refused to even recognize his. I believe his "Love Thy Enemy" behavior is why he succeeded.

I firmly believe that he has a better chance of winning the GE as long as he remains on the high-ground so HRC's actions will have nothing to do with it.

Beryl; June 07, 2008 2:39 AM
suzihussein22 said...: k a-Yes, but he wasn't happy about how loopy he felt either. It's the fact that they used dissolving stitches and glue on an outside dog that has me on watch with him.

hippolytus- I'm OUT?! Who'd a thunk so many would unite and go with Him. That's what I get for being generous.:)

I hear HRC is starting her speech at noon. I hope I don't see Miss Clinon cry.; June 07, 2008 6:03 AM
Karen Anne said...: I dunno, Beryl and Aunt Jean,

When Hillary's tactics turned really nasty, Obama's favorability ratings started to sink. Hers did as well, but not so much. My understanding is that that's the way it works with negative campaigning, both get viewed more unfavorably, but the attacker less,, that's why Rove, etc. use it.

I hear the Republicans already have an ad out against Obama using the footage of Clinton saying McCain would be a better commander in chief.

And Bill was running around just recently in Virginia or some such telling voters there that Obama didn't care about "people like them." He has a lot of credibility in those geographical areas. They aren't going to forget that he thinks that.

Plus there have certainly been many postings from self-identified Clinton supporters in the past few days saying they will vote McCain. I have to believe a lot of them are real and not just trolls, because I have a couple of women friends who have similarly gone off the deep end, although most of my friends, male and female, who originally voted for Clinton now have become Obama supporters precisely because of her tactics.

My feeling is that if Obama loses, and McCain is looking so bad lately in various respects it is hard to imagine how any Democrat could lose, the responsibility for that is at the feet of Clinton and her supporters.

So if that happens, I think her political future, at least as far as the Presidency is concerned, is toast, because she will be held responsible not only for her own campaign tactics, but for inciting her supporters with lies about the popular vote and such to feel that she was unjustly treated.; June 07, 2008 6:47 AM
ed iglehart said...: Have y'all seen this?

Go to their web poll and register your vote.

;-)))))
ed; June 07, 2008 6:54 AM
ed iglehart said...: Beryl,

I've said it before, but I find it truer with every post you make. You're a gem!

I'd like to hug you, but not if you'd find it inappropriate!

You sound to me like what HRC SHOULD have been.

xxxx (platonic, of course)
and
((((((hug))))))
ed; June 07, 2008 7:26 AM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Ed, that is a really stupid (and I mean uneducated) site. They couldn't get a simple poll question correct: "Will you vote for Obama is Hillary is the VP nominee"

I don't see Clinton as VP. Just not a good match for Obama's message, but I have been a Clinton hater for a long time. Started with what Bill did to the Military while he was President. He was probably good for a lot of the country, but he hurt the Military. Below cost of living raises, cut projects, froze on base housing projects, reduced educational benefits, etc....... So my vision is a bit cloudy on the Clinton's that you Dems found so appealing.

Independent for Obama; June 07, 2008 8:53 AM
ed iglehart said...: Emit,

I agree they're stupid, but that doesn't prevent them from having an influence, or more sadly, from being representative of a significant portion (the smaller, the better, imo) of the electorate.

Not to mention the inappropriate apostrophe on video's, and the general crap-ness of the website.

What a snob I am!
;-)
ed; June 07, 2008 9:05 AM
Emit R Detsaw said...: LOL - I did think it was funny that they stated that they had over 15,000 strong, yet the poll had only about 3,000 votes and most were for Obama for Pres over McLame.

Glad you Dems got Obama nominated.

;o); June 07, 2008 9:13 AM
Meg said...: After her speech today I'm hoping we will just stop hearing about Hillary. Even negative attention is attention, and frankly I'm tired of it. Attention makes her look powerful.; June 07, 2008 10:41 AM
greywolf said...: Okay so what is the current total delegate count for Obama?

I see there is still some talk about my number selection, but that is okay. A number is only a number lol..; June 07, 2008 11:17 AM
greywolf said...: My only concern is the fact that Hillary is only suspending her run. This means she still goes to the convention with her full voted delegate count in tow. This in my mind is not a full endorsement, as it leaves hope floating in the wind that something will happen to Obama; such as a major fopa or whatever, then she can still Sway SD's to her favor at the convention. I say she must completely conceed if she really wants Democrats to believe she is putting her support behind Obama.; June 07, 2008 11:21 AM
jpsedona said...: grey,

If Hillary drops out she is prohibited from raising money to pay off her campaign debt. By suspending her campaign she has until the convention to raise money for the primary season.; June 07, 2008 11:25 AM
greywolf said...: If she even mentions her accomplishments as to winning popular vote, blue collar vote, or any comment that infers she was more qualified, it will only show that her endorsement is completely disingenuous. It will be very interesting to see how she words her endorsement. Over embellishment and over praising will accomplish the same. Sorry, I am very skecptical at this moment and will gladly eat my words if I am wrong. I just do not trust the Clintons, I have followed and studied their political careers very closely and have learned not to trust them even one little bit.
No matter what she does today, she will be the topic of conversation for days to come, which takes away from Obama and his ability to function completely on the GE.; June 07, 2008 11:32 AM
greywolf said...: Jpes....

I understand that, however, she was well aware that she was not going to win this nomination a good month and 1/2 ago, but she continued to raise her debt level.
That debet is not at 30 million plus, as reported by her campaign staff. That is completely crazy. I would never let my ego over ride my better judgement resultin in that kind of debt. Sorry, I know the devious mind that comes hand in hand with the Clinton mind, I just dont trust them.; June 07, 2008 11:37 AM
Beryl said...: I'm still hoping she will redeem herself today.

Even though I voted for Bill twice, I now understand what the naysayers said about the Clintons for years. They were right and I was wrong for supporting them in the past.

In the last 6-8 months, they've proven NOT to be good people.; June 07, 2008 11:41 AM
greywolf said...: I am going to listen to this on C-SPAN that way I can advoid the Media spin and make up my own mind as to what I hear.; June 07, 2008 12:02 PM
greywolf said...: Wow, talking about bitterness. Listening to the callers on CSPAN, it is so sad when listening, they have it all so very twisted in their minds. It is so very sad to hear some of those comments.; June 07, 2008 12:11 PM
ed iglehart said...: BBC live coverage

Hope it works.

Seems HRC hasn't even got into her car to drive the 25 minutes to the venue...
;-)
ed; June 07, 2008 12:17 PM
tmess2 said...: It's going to take some time for the bitterness to heal. Almost always in these races, the supporters tend to be nastier and more bitter than the candidates themselves.

Most of the complaints that I hear coming from Hillary supporters are not about what Obama himself has said but about what Obama supporters have done.

Those of us who actually have to work in and around government tend to understand that the campaign is the campaign and governing is governing and that you put aside hurt feelings and figure out how to work together when the race is over. Grassroots activists tend more to hold grudges a bit longer.; June 07, 2008 12:26 PM
Independent Voter said...: grey - OMG!!!!!!! LOL!!!!! A woman just called in on C-SPAN saying "anybody who wants her [Hillary] as a Senator in their state or whatever they want her for....take her, we don't want her here in NY". (This was a paraphrase - but it was still the general message I found to be funny).

LOL!!!!!!; June 07, 2008 12:28 PM
greywolf said...: The longer she delays this the worse it looks for her.; June 07, 2008 12:30 PM
greywolf said...: Independent....

According to what I am hearing, there are many in NY that feel that way. There were a lot of promises made that she has from what is being said made NO attempt to follow through on. That and what they saw on the campaign trail has really ticked off a lot of her NY supporters.; June 07, 2008 12:35 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 07, 2008 12:36 PM
Independent Voter said...: I shouldn't have laughed as much as I did about it, and I probably shouldn't have even said anything on here, because I really don't want to antagonize anyone.

But something I'm afraid of now is 2012. I'm assuming that Obama will win this year, but the problem that I have for 2012 that her Senate seat may be in jeopardy. It isn't necessarily that I fear her losing her seat, it's that the Democrats may lose a Senate seat. But then again, it has been said before that in this country, we, the voters have a short memory span. Perhaps they will forgive her between now and then.

Please please please Hillary don't talk about the little boy who sold his bike and video games.; June 07, 2008 12:49 PM
greywolf said...: I dont like the tone of where she is going, she needs to change that real fast.; June 07, 2008 12:53 PM
ed iglehart said...: She just said "Supreme Court"!; June 07, 2008 1:01 PM
greywolf said...: Sorry folks, it is my opinion that she just blew it. She went to the sexism card.; June 07, 2008 1:07 PM
greywolf said...: I did not get it because of sexism.. this has turned pathetic.; June 07, 2008 1:08 PM
Independent Voter said...: hmmmmmmmmm, she started out ok, then she praised Obama, then she pulled the sexism charge.......grrrrrrr

I'm nervous now to greay.; June 07, 2008 1:10 PM
Independent Voter said...: oops grey; June 07, 2008 1:10 PM
greywolf said...: She could have gone there any time but this was not the time. Granted there was some sexism; however there was a lot more racism and she has yet to acknowledge that. I am very disappointed. This is not about her this is about American and sadly for her Obama. She could have taken that platform anytime except now.; June 07, 2008 1:16 PM
ed iglehart said...: Hmmmmmmmm.

Like the curate's egg, "good in parts".

I think it was on balance, not bad, and did give her audience what they perhaps needed to hear.

I'll sleep on it.

xx
ed; June 07, 2008 1:20 PM
greywolf said...: I will give it to her that she did give a good speach. However, going down the sexism trail; was a bad move. Just my opinion. I am just not that comfortble with her speach. Obama's camp stated they were pleased with it, so I will accept it on those same terms. There will however remain in the back of my mind a lingering doubt only based upon what I have learned over the past nearly 30 years of their history.; June 07, 2008 1:27 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: As from someone that you all know has never really liked the Clintons, I thought it was a good speech. Anything else would have seemed fake. This one seemed genuine.

I give her kudos on this one!

Good Job Hillary!; June 07, 2008 1:27 PM
Independent Voter said...: emit, I have to agree with you, but she really should have stayed away from the issue of sexism, especially since she really didn't address the role racism has been at play in the campaign.; June 07, 2008 1:33 PM
Oregon Dem said...: On balance I think Senator Clinton's speech was right on.; June 07, 2008 1:35 PM
Meg said...: Oregon:

I agree. I don't think she looked particularly happy about it, but I think she made her case stronger by urging her supporters not to lose the opportunity to put a Dem in the White House. I hope those bitter women will seriously ponder what is possible more important.

I think if I had seen this Hillary at the beginning of the primaries, I would have taken a longer look at her. She seemed mostly to be telling the truth from her point of view.; June 07, 2008 1:41 PM
suzihussein22 said...: The gender card was played but I think it was steared away from actual sexism since it is true that we have made a lot of progress since we were allowed the vote. The story about the older woman was relevant but I'm glad she didn't say anything about the boy selling his stuff. Too bad she talked about the girl going to PA instead of the vacation she saved 2 yrs. for. That was selfish of the parents. The speech was a lot more graceful than I expected.; June 07, 2008 1:43 PM
countjellybean said...: I have a different take on the sexism component of her speech. It highlighted the fact that her campaign was in some part focused on its symbolism, and therefore not completely focused on the reality at hand. Which in turn points to the fact that the campaign was poorly planned.

Aside from that I though it was a pretty good speech.; June 07, 2008 1:44 PM
Beryl said...: It was a "good speech" in all. It took her a long time to get to the endorsement but given her style, it was expected. Once she finally got to the endorsement, she did very well. Way to go -- Hillary!

However, I didn't like how long she stayed on the gender part of the speech, however. It was not the right time, IMO. This is why I appreciate how Obama didn't play the race card and only discussed it in one major speech. Hillary needed to save this for a major speech during the second half of the campaign. Maybe she will do that soon and I will write into her suggesting it.

Some of her speech was excessively self-congratulatory and that bothered me too. I'd rather hear her spend more time singing the praises of OTHERS who supported the campaign. But then, her campaign was more about what SHE would do for us than what WE can do together with the right leadership. Again, it was a style thing.

To sum it up, she did very well and I appreciated her speech completely. Although I poked holes in it, any other approach would not be genuine given her style.; June 07, 2008 1:46 PM
Independent Voter said...: jellybean,

I agree. I hadn't looked at it that way, but I think you are correct.; June 07, 2008 1:47 PM
Independent Voter said...: beryl,

another great analysis.; June 07, 2008 1:49 PM
greywolf said...: I continue to compare speakers to those greater one, and maybe I should not. Given her style of speaking, this was good, just not what I had hoped for personally. That is just me I guess I need to look more at the individual then draw a comparrison to other. Then again I must admit that my thoughts are tainted by what I know of the political background of the Clinton name. I would like to view it differently, and maybe in time I will.; June 07, 2008 1:55 PM
greywolf said...: What I do know it that it is now time for Obama to get out there for the next few weeks and really stake his claim this nomination. HE has done that some what, now he really needs to get out there, making the difference filling in thsoe blanks. Maybe that will help bring balance in my mind.; June 07, 2008 1:57 PM
greywolf said...: Ditto on Independents words.

the analysis of jellybean and beryl are another way of looking at it that never occured to me. Again maybe it is me in that my views are tainted by what I have learned over the years.; June 07, 2008 1:59 PM
greywolf said...: Well Ihave things to do and places to go today, I will stop by later tonight and to see the rest of everyones opinions.; June 07, 2008 2:01 PM
Beryl said...: greywolf - you are right.

Obama needs to get out there just like he did during the primaries. He needs to give those big inspirational speeches all over America -- college educated, no college, all races, genders, sexual orientation, religious beliefs. He needs to make sure everyone knows he will do the right thing for domestic AND foreign affairs. America needs to believe that he will unify and help us to become respected in the world.

This is serious stuff and Obama needs to stay fired up. 4 more years of Bush politics is unacceptable.

(Guess it is time to drop a few more $$$ on his site. lol! ); June 07, 2008 2:09 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: I was happy with Hillary's speech until about the middle. It took her over six minutes to mention Obama which was fine. Then she was pretty powerful about everyone supporting Obama... then it went downhill from there playing the gender card. She should have kept the last third of the speech focused on Obama and focused on defeating the republicans. She did not once mention McCain and the fact that we must defeat him. She did not once say that McCain's policies are totally against what she believes in. It could have been a much better unity speech if she had focused on Obama and McCain and not so much on herself.

OBAMA/Sebelius '08; June 07, 2008 3:25 PM
Beryl said...: Martin - that is a terrible blog paid for by HRC. At first I thought it was just flooded by RNC or Rush trouble-makers but most of the posts were that way with no voices of reason at all. You'd think someone would steer them in the right direction.

The Obama blogs are so tame with only negative comments based on substantive points, little or no emotion, and rational commentary. But then, the Obama support base is so different.

Did anyone else see the movie "Idiocracy"? The folks on that blog were straight out of that movie.

This country really needs change.; June 07, 2008 3:28 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Martin-
I was reading the comments on the Hillary site earlier. Now the are over there complaining because Obama went out to golf and did not stay home to watch Hillary's speech! One woman even said that she was considering supporting Obama until she found out that Obama did not watch the speech and she said that that was disrespectful to HRC! LOL.
I am sure that Hillary has never sat around listening to Senator Obama's speeches ;)

DEMOCRATS UNITE!
Obama '08; June 07, 2008 3:28 PM
Dilbuck said...: Martin,

I really think that is the same 5 or 6 people posting over and over. You would think that if they were all individual people... perhaps one of them would have an original thought? They never even say why they won't vote Obama just that they won't. I wouldn't doubt one bit if it's a few republican plants trying to raise a ruckus. Lord knows it wouldn't be the first time.

Most Hillary supporters that I know and have come by will support Obama when it comes down to it. Obama just needs to get the message out on McCain and I think Hill could do some good on the campaign trail talking about the differences between her and McCain.; June 07, 2008 3:32 PM
Beryl said...: Leah
Obama playing golf is a RNC talking point that was brought up on MSNBC. So I think that the RNC started the initial post on the topic. Someone started it on Obama's blog and everyone shut it down. LOL!

Obama was golfing but he saw the speed on a computer and was respecting her by letting her have her day. He is class all the way. There is NOTHING Obama can do to satisfy the HRC supporters except drop out of the race. His very existence is what bothers them.; June 07, 2008 3:34 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: The Hillary site moderators not approve very many posts over there. I signed up there as NoMcCainEver and have never had one of my post get on the blog. And all of my posts said 'nothing' about Obama - only about uniting the party and being a good democrat, and not disrespecting HRC by voting for McCain, etc. So I think that the moderators are promoting the divisiveness and the McCain vote, and Denver, etc.

I think in a week or two everything will calm down, if Hillary stays out of the spotlight, and then the party will start to come together better.

Obama is beating McCain in the polls so everything is looking bright ;)

Obama/Sebelius '08; June 07, 2008 3:49 PM
Vicki in Seattle said...: you know, with technology, it's entirely possible to golf and watch CNN at the same time.

and entirely possible to watch the tv at the clubhouse before going and practicing your putting.

or for a completely fabricated story to make it around the world in 30 seconds or less.

whatever.; June 07, 2008 3:50 PM
Independent Voter said...: Leah - I hear you on the HRC site. I sent a message through "contact us" saying how disappointed I was that they were allowing such divisive comments through but not allowing those through that were upbeat and positive to bring the party together. It shows to me that they (HRC's entire campaign) have zero interest in unifying the the two teams to get a Democrat elected in November.; June 07, 2008 4:54 PM
Yamaka said...: Hello Democrats:

Greetings from Austin, TX.

At the Convention, as expected, Baracks's people maintained the Caucus lead of 9 delegates, which finally gave him 99 to Hillary's 94 PDs. SDs went for him too!

The feelings are very raw: race and gender ARE real issues with BOTH factions. Her supporters are very very angry that RBC was not even-handed - they charge that RBC stabbed her on her back!

My reading is only 1/3 of Hillary supporters right now will support Barack. 2/3 wouldn't know whether to stay home or go to McCain.

Barack has lot of works to do - his supporter has plenty more to do in bringing Clinton Democrats home.

Even in this site I see postings more of the Victor vs Vanquished type. Very few people have changed their tone! If the situation does NOT change dramatically Democrats could very well lose the WH and the Congress, IMO.

_________________________________

StopObamaNow:

I read your post. Most of what you say are true.

Nearly 2/3 of Hillary's supporters do NOT like Obama at a very fundamental level: he is a tax and spend Liberal, she is a fiscal conservative. This distinction must change. He has to move very decisively to the Center to become a viable electable candidate, IMO.

The fact he did not go to DC tells me even his feelings are very raw, and the two finalists are NOT really friends as yet.

As such, I am watching carefully. I want to see Obama work very very hard in gaining the confidence of Clinton Democrats. The platform should reflect the Centrist in him to win the White House, because most of the American Electorate is at the Center.

Whether I will leave the Democratic Party: Most probably NOT, because I believe that we need to fight from inside to modernize the Party, to make more equitable, and not from outside, which could turn out to be harder, and counter-productive.

SON,

Please keep writing. I believe in most of what you say, particularly that robust dissent is the essential feature of a thriving Democracy.; June 07, 2008 4:56 PM
greywolf said...: The fact he did not go to DC tells me even his feelings are very raw, and the two finalists are NOT really friends as yet.

The poster of this comment obviously did not listen to the news this morning. It was agreed that Obama would not go to DC today. This was her time to unite the party and her time to speak. Obama's presence would have been disrespectful to Hillary. Some of you just do not get it. Obama's feelings may be raw, but at least he has the dignity and respect to give her the space she needs and requested. Secondly, he praised her up one wall and down the other so I do not believe his feelings are as raw as some may think. This man has more class, respect and dignity in one hand and thought than many that I have seen and met these past 16 months.; June 07, 2008 5:11 PM
Unknown said...: I watched some of Hillary's speech - couldn't listen to it all knowing it was forced. However, she did a wonderful job of giving the Democratic party exactly what they forced her to say.

No matter, I am still voting for McCain in November.

McCain 2008 Hillary 2012; June 07, 2008 5:12 PM
greywolf said...: Leah Texas4Obama said...
I was happy with Hillary's speech until about the middle. It took her over six minutes to mention Obama which was fine. Then she was pretty powerful about everyone supporting Obama... then it went downhill from there playing the gender card. She should have kept the last third of the speech focused on Obama and focused on defeating the republicans. She did not once mention McCain and the fact that we must defeat him. She did not once say that

Thank you Leah, I was begining to worry that I was being too biased and unfair in my assesment of that speach. I feel better now to hear your thoughts on it.; June 07, 2008 5:13 PM
Uncle John said...: Good speech.

A quote:

[From] now on, it will be unremarkable for a woman to win primary state victories, unremarkable to have a woman in a close race to be our nominee, unremarkable to think that a woman can be the President of the United States. And that is truly remarkable.

Credit to her for that. And credit to Obama for making it thinkable (not quite unremarkable) that a man of color can be President.; June 07, 2008 5:15 PM
greywolf said...: Lee said...
I watched some of Hillary's speech - couldn't listen to it all knowing it was forced. However, she did a wonderful job of giving the Democratic party exactly what they forced her to say.

Sorry you feel that way lee, your feelings are your own, but I do not believe you have anything concrete or factual to back up your feelings and dislike for Obama. Nothing was forced from Hillary, She did not have to give that speach. She had a choice and she made it as you are making your choice. From the way you sound, you are just looking for an excuse, anything to justify your feelings.; June 07, 2008 5:16 PM
greywolf said...: well back to the yard work. Planted some flowers and seeds this morning, not time to pull weeds and stake up the tomato plants.; June 07, 2008 5:19 PM
Unknown said...: greywolf:

Hillary had to make that speech. If she refused to make that speech or took the campaign to the convention (unless another Rev. Wright occurs between now and then), she would have damaged her chances of running for president in the future.; June 07, 2008 5:20 PM
Independent Voter said...: Yam, The fact he did not go to DC tells me even his feelings are very raw, and the two finalists are NOT really friends as yet.

He didn't go to DC because of raw feelings or to disrespect HRC by any means. Today was about HER and HER SUPPORTERS! You claim that "HIS feelings are raw" without even a thought that she may have requested him to not be present. I feel that he was showing his respect to her by not being there, so that it would not appear as if he was rubbing the nomination in anybody's face. Tuesday SHOULD have been about him and once again she turned it around to be all about her. This was HER mulligan - to do Tuesday night OVER. And if he were to have been there it very well could have been misconstrued as rubbing it in her and her supporters faces. Today was about HER as it should have been.; June 07, 2008 5:20 PM
Yamaka said...: "It was agreed that Obama would not go to DC today. This was her time to unite the party and her time to speak."

My expectation was that at the very end of the Speech, he would come to the podium and both would hug and kiss and tell the world that they are in deed UNITED now - no question about it.

This should have been the Plan. Because after the "secret" DC Meeting, people were wondering what was going on? Are they smiling together or what? Maybe, more friction!

Today, a joint appearance at the very end would have answered all the lingering doubts.

People want to see the body language between them and their hands together lifted up! A very picturesque statement to the entire world - the Democratic Party is united behind the Nominee.

Who ever planned this, they goofed the very first chance.

Cindy and John McCain are smiling!; June 07, 2008 5:23 PM
greywolf said...: talking about not having raw feelings or ill feelings. If you go to Obama web site, the first thing you see is.. Thank YOU Senator Clinton... then a link to show your support .. where you can email a thankyou directly to Hillary for her work and her support to the democratic GE.

Now that is a class act people..this man is one hell of a class act. This is something he does not have to do, but does so out of respect for Senator Clinton.; June 07, 2008 5:24 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Lee sounds like a republican just trying to stir up things. So funny. If you liked Clinton's plans for America, then you have to HATE McCain's. There is nothing similar. Obama and Clinton only differ on a few points, so for where the contry needs to head, it's Obama or the toilet for this country.

True Clinton supports will be voting for Obama come November. Obama will win by a landslide. Just thought I would state that here and now!; June 07, 2008 5:27 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: OK Lee,

You stated "No matter, I am still voting for McCain in November."

List the policy issues that caused you to support Senator Clinton that you see McSame also supporting.

Why did you support Clinton, and how is McSame also supporting those same issues?

If you were a supporter of Senator Clinton, what is it about McSame that is different from Senator Obama that would cause you to threaten to vote for McSame?

Anyone who supported Senator Clinton for her policies should be able to list those policy issues, and then support Senator Obama very easily. If not, then it is not for policy issues that you were for Senator Clinton, but are threatening to vote for McSame.

Or did you come to this site to 'support' Senator Clinton just so you could throw a hissy-fit when she lost? Did you intend to support McSame all the time?

To prove that you are not a troll, you better start listing the policy issues pronto. Otherwise you only prove your trollish behavior.

Mike; June 07, 2008 5:29 PM
Independent Voter said...: Mike - Lee is voting based on gender and race, that's all! Plain and simple.; June 07, 2008 5:35 PM
Joshua said...: Lee:
"If she refused to make that speech or took the campaign to the convention (unless another Rev. Wright occurs between now and then), she would have damaged her chances of running for president in the future."

Lee, pay attention. Hillary Clinton as a politician is dead. Gone.

When did you ever see a politician not give a concession speech the same time he/she lost? Did you ever hear Hillary congratulate Obama on any of his wins? Obama always made a point of calling and congratulating her whenever she won a primary and always announced in his primary night speech that he had. Hillary never did.

She was a selfish egotistical non-politician who has never accomplished anything without the aid of her husband. And if she is your example of a strong woman, then a woman IS NEVER GOING TO BE PRESIDENT of these United States.; June 07, 2008 5:44 PM
Independent Voter said...: Mike And if she is your example of a strong woman, then a woman IS NEVER GOING TO BE PRESIDENT of these United States.

Although I agree with most of what you wrote I have to disagree with this part, and it isn't really the entire premise of what you wrote that I disagree with. I feel that you left a little bit out (I'm going to rewrite it with what I feel you left out)

And if she is your example of a strong female political figure, then a woman IS NEVER GOING TO BE PRESIDENT of these United States.; June 07, 2008 5:50 PM
greywolf said...: For all of those in here that have ill feelings about this race between Obama and Hillary. For those that want to blame the media, obama and his supporters for her loss; I want to give you this food for thought.

Had the primary voting schedule, or had Florida and Michigan stayed in line, or had Hillary Clinton used Obama's campaign Manager instead of deciding to go with her husbands choice. Had Hillary's campaign staff not been so sure of the Clinton name and brand, had they planned for the long haul and thought this would end in February, had they planned and looked at the caucus states in a more favorable view training and placing people there in those caucus states as well as campaigning there. Do you think for one minute that Barack Obama would still be the deomcratic Nominee? If you do then you are so very wrong. The major failure for Senator Clinton was turning down Obama's campaign manager and the poor strategy planning and over all state planning on her campaign staff part. Had the whole campaign been better organized and the planning been better, as well as had florida and michigan stayed in line, you bet your sweet hinneys this race would have ended a lot different.

So stop blaming the media, and blaming Obama or his campaign staff as it was not their fault. If you want to blame any one look at Hillary's campaign managers, the states of Florida and Michigan. Their second greatest mistake is they underestimated Senator Obama's ability to organize a great campaign strategy, as well as his ability to appeal to the voters.

Obama made one serious fopa in this race, bitter gate, only one, he never attacked Hillary, he only responded to the hits he received from her staff and the Clintons them selves. If you doubt my words, go back through all the campaign video's and listen, go to her campaign web site and learn about the campaign strategy. You will learn if you have the desire to do so that I am right.

So again do not blame Obama, the RBC, the DNC or Obama supporters and campaign staff. Look at the facts and you will see you are wrong in doing so.; June 07, 2008 5:54 PM
Yamaka said...: Okay folks:

I have a question:

How many of you would like a prominent role for Hillary in Barack's campaign?

Or

how many of you want her to have a low key role?

That will solve most of the problems!; June 07, 2008 5:57 PM
Independent Voter said...: Yam, MOST of us would like to see her in a prominent role - just not one that is too close in the line of succession - meaning NO VP.

I for one would like to see her in one of three cabinet posts

1. Attorney General
2. SC Justice
3. Senate Majority Leader

In one way I would like to see #3 come about because we NEED powerful Senators to remain in the Senate (and INCREASE the majority) so the Dems can give Joe Lie-bermen a good swift KICK out of the party caucus.; June 07, 2008 6:07 PM
Hippolytus said...: greywolf, you nailed it. Add to the list - Hillary constantly changing messages like she was changing hats. Obama stayed on message throughout, and it paid off.
****
Yam, obviously she she play a large role, and she will.; June 07, 2008 6:08 PM
Independent Voter said...: OOPS! Sorry Yam, I would not only like for her to have a very prominent role as an advisor (in his cabinet) but I think she should have a strong role in his campaign.; June 07, 2008 6:09 PM
Independent Voter said...: OOPS! Another problem in my post - #3 is NOT a cabinet post, but I think you get the gist of what I was saying.; June 07, 2008 6:11 PM
Joshua said...: Greywolf, I am not sure that I agree entirely that Obama would not have beating Clinton had she done all those things.

Clinton lost for one main reason: She was fake and had flawed judgment. Her bad judgment was on display at every juncture. Anyone with any brains saw it:

1. She voted for the Iraq war out of bad judgment. She miscalculated and did not want to look week. So she chose the death of thousands of her countrymen and a million Iraqis just to preserve her credentials of “strong on defense.”
2. She refused to acknowledge her error because she miscalculated that she would look week and conceding the obvious.
3. She had the bad judgment of not strongly opposing the Taliban Republicans in Terry Schiavo. Again, she miscalculated in not wanting to offend the religious fanatics among us.
4. She misjudged the mood of the electorate. She positioned herself as the establishment incumbent candidate in a climate when 2006 should have told her the country wanted CHANGE.
5. She misjudged the depth of suspicious against GWB and voted to give him even more war powers against Iran.
6. Even after every talking head on TV had informed her and her husband to use less “I” in their speeches, she continued to say: “I will fight for you. I am experienced. I have 10000 plans to rescue healthcare,” etc.
7. She was completely tone deaf not to concede soon after Super Tuesday: Obama won the first primary in Iowa and has been ahead of her ever since. Every day. But she had hubris and did not see that it was over.
8. Even after Obama got the majority of the elected delegates, she stayed in the race. Bad judgement that only deepened the hatred most Democrats felt for her.
9. It was bad judgment to talk about “hard working white voters.” These are not the voters that put Democrats across the finish line. Those voters always vote Republican in November.
10. It was bad judgment to dismiss Black voters. These are the core of the Democratic base. No Democrat ever wins any race without the black vote. Ever.
11. It was bad judgment to make base her campaign on identity: woman. Compare that to Obama. The only time he ever mentions race is when he is forced to address it. And he does so only in the form of a broader context. Everybody discussed race this campaign, except Obama. He never did. Hillary and Bill began talking about the female vote immediately after she lost Iowa, not before.
12. Finally, Obama is simply a once in a lifetime phenomenon. Anyone who ever heard his speech always comes away feeling that, “He gets it. He really understands me.”; June 07, 2008 6:15 PM
Yamaka said...: My two cents on why Hillary lost?

She put together a formidable coalition of

Most women, working and older White and Latino Americans.

But she could not sway the college kids and the White "educated, affluent" groups. That' it. Barack had a lock on this group.

Media had a field day: Anti-Clinton and anti-Women rhetorics against her. "Bittergate" and "Wright-gate against Barack.

RBC/DNC should have solved the MI and FL before the polling started. You should NEVER have any controversy once the polling started. This was totally unfair to the Candidates.

Assume Barack won both MI and FL, and she was leading the PD count, for a minute. You all would have gone with kitchen sink to the RBC Meeting! That's only fair.

Cheers.; June 07, 2008 6:16 PM
Joshua said...: Yamaka, Hillary campaigning for Obama would be welcome. But definitely, Bill should stay away. He has no credibility left. And he is most likely to say something that Obama would be forced to have to go and defend.

I give you one assurance, Hillary will not be a prominent part of Obama’s campaign because she does not pass a simple job requirement that Obama has: No drama queens or kings welcome.; June 07, 2008 6:19 PM
Independent Voter said...: Yam, RBC/DNC should have solved the MI and FL before the polling started. You should NEVER have any controversy once the polling started. This was totally unfair to the Candidates.

You're RIGHT! I concede this point.

HOWEVER!!!!!!!!!!!! They DID have the problem solved before the polling started. The decision had been made to strip them of their delegates.

Obama NEVER had to compromise on those two states, but he DID. It wasn't until AFTER Hillary was losing the race that she started "fighting" for them. "It is clear, this primary is not going to count for anything" - HRC Oct. 10, 2007; June 07, 2008 6:24 PM
greywolf said...: And for all those english majors before you start tearing my last statement apart; I realize that it is a very poorly written statement, full of run on sentences, and such. I wrote it in a hurry, while very ticked off at this constant blaming of Obama for Senators Clintons failure to win the nomination.
It was not his fault.
And I also want to add one last statement. Everytime Senator Obama made a mistake, he openly admitted his mistake, appologized for it and carried on. Although I do not believe he should have, He also took a lot of heat because of words from others mouths, accepted it, appologized for it and moved on. Had it been me in his shoes I would have told those fussing about Wright and Flager to go pound sand and stuff it, because I would refuse to be held responsible for the words, thoughts and views that came from the mouths others. But that is just me; June 07, 2008 6:25 PM
greywolf said...: Yamaka said...
My two cents on why Hillary lost?

She put together a formidable coalition of

Most women, working and older White and Latino Americans.

Yam.. you also failed to mention the constant racist remarks that Obama had to endure while campaigning. You also failed to mention the fact that Obama and his family recieve numerous death threats from those radical racists, that is why he had secret service so early. This man had to endure just as much racially if not more than Hillary did when it came to sexism. No one threatened Hillarys life, or Her family because she was a female or white.
So with all that said..everyone that has an issue, needs to grow up, look at the facts and quit trying to find excuses to justify their inability to vote for a AA or a democrat.; June 07, 2008 6:31 PM
greywolf said...: okay now I am off my pulpit. I applogize if I offended anyone by my comments. Just some of this pure stupidity i read in here really gets under my skin.; June 07, 2008 6:32 PM
Yamaka said...: "They DID have the problem solved before the polling started. The decision had been made to strip them of their delegates."

I disagree. The fact there was a meeting of RBC on 30 May, and there was reinstatement of 1/2 votes per D was an admission that they over stepped their authority when they stripped MI and FL of full votes!

The Rule prescribed only 1/2 (for jumping the line) as the RNC did, who finished the problem w/o any controversy at all!

IMO, RBC/DNC blew it, to the consternation of 18 million voters who supported Hillary.

Now water is under the bridge!; June 07, 2008 6:44 PM
greywolf said...: Yamaka said...
"They DID have the problem solved before the polling started. The decision had been made to strip them of their delegates."

Yam, yes they blew it... hind sight is better than no sight. However, had Senator clinton been ahead and winning this would not have been an issue. I am sure you can admit even that. It was a last ditch effort to salvage a poorly framed and very flawed initial campaign strategy. Unfortunately for Senator Clinton and her supporters it did not work, I honestly feel badly for her and them, but it is not anyones fault other than those that drew up the plan and those that accepted the plan as it applies to the Clinton campaign strategy.; June 07, 2008 6:53 PM
Joshua said...: Yamaka “IMO, RBC/DNC blew it, to the consternation of 18 million voters who supported Hillary.”

I am sick of hearing this Hillary mantra. How many millions voted for Obama? What is the population of USA? Over 300 milliion.

To keep talking about this nonsense is to continue the Hillary divisiveness. We have one America. My advice to Hillary voters: if your brain cannot understand that this is not about you or about Hillary, then stay home in November. This is about OUR COUNTRY and its future.

If you ever vote for McCain instead of Obama, either you have no integrity or it is not about issues.; June 07, 2008 6:56 PM
greywolf said...: What is the total delegate count now any way. Just curious about the little numbers game we are playing in here.; June 07, 2008 7:03 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Independent voter said:

1. Attorney General
2. SC Justice
3. Senate Majority Leader
____________________________

1. That will probably be John Edwards.

2. Possibly - but someone would have to die first.

3. Harry Reid is not giving it up and there are many more people in line for that job before HRC - remember that HRC is 36th in seniority in the Senate.

I do not know what Obama would offer her if anything. He puts team players on this team and I am not so sure Hillary would want to be a team player. I don't think he will put her in charge of health care because he has always said HE will have the biggest chair when getting his plan enacted.

Obama/Sebelius '08; June 07, 2008 7:04 PM
Independent Voter said...: Leah - Actually #2 (SC Justice) Ruth Bader-Ginsberg (75) is more than likely going to retire as will John Paul Stevens (88) and possibly Justice Stephen Bryer (69). Bryer is the least likely to retire, but the other two have already expressed a desire to.; June 07, 2008 7:12 PM
Meg said...: I hope that all those angry Hillary supporters will:

watch the debates between Obama and McCain

stay involved in the process

realize that voting for McCain out of revenge or a plan to get HRC in the WH in 2012 is idiotic

let go. Women can be forgiving.

Perhaps there are not so many Harriet's out there. Maybe they're just the loudest. Surely their desire for "power" will give way to their hopes for the future of the country.; June 07, 2008 7:12 PM
Independent Voter said...: Leah I do not know what Obama would offer her if anything. He puts team players on this team and I am not so sure Hillary would want to be a team player. I don't think he will put her in charge of health care because he has always said HE will have the biggest chair when getting his plan enacted.

Don't be so sure - remember he has stated multiple time that he also wants to appoint cabinet member who also disagree with him.; June 07, 2008 7:13 PM
Beryl said...: greywolf said: "Now that is a class act people..this man is one hell of a class act. This is something he does not have to do, but does so out of respect for Senator Clinton."
He also did it out of SELF-RESPECT. When you do the right thing, you bring honor to yourself. Obama is an honorable man. Everyone knows this but some will not admit it. That is OK too. They just remain without honor.

Lee is not a Democrat. I am convinced of that. No one spends time on a pro-Obama site complaining about Obama without ulterior motives unless they are just trolling.; June 07, 2008 7:18 PM
Yamaka said...: grey:

In any closely contested election, MI and FL issue would have been very very important.

When we started no one predicted how close the election was going to be. As you said hindsight is 20/20.

Both Barack and Hillary campaigned very hard till the very last minute. Both had excellent strategy and both got executed well. I don't find any flaw in them.

Their constituency is quite different. That bad the real difference at the end. Her supporters, many of them, did NOT attend the Caucuses, as it happened in TX: she won the Primary and he won the Caucus in the same State!
---------------------------------

mike:

I don't want to show any anger at either Candidate at this point in time.

Both are American Leaders: Barack energizes the youth in America and Hillary the women in America. Both are fine with me.

I am very proud of both of them.
______________________________-

My preference for Hillary in Barack's is:

Unless she takes or given a prominent role in the GE Campaign, it is extremely hard for Clinton Democrats to vote for Barack.

Their votes are extremely important to win the WH.

If she gives a lukewarm support to Barack, the Election is already over.

Barack is smart enough to know it.

The question is whether his supporters understand it?; June 07, 2008 7:22 PM
Yamaka said...: Oops. mistake:

Read: That made the difference.; June 07, 2008 7:24 PM
Uncle John said...: HRC as Supreme Court Justice:

I posted earlier on this. I don't think it's a good idea.

A judge in a non-jury case has to look at all the facts before her/him, and render impartial judgment. She did not do that in assessing her chances in this campaign.

That role is different from the one Hillary plays so well, that of advocate. An advocate represents a client's interests, and should not be impartial.

Hillary is the best advocate for health coverage we have. I'd like to see her as Secretary of Health and Human Services.; June 07, 2008 7:45 PM
greywolf said...: Yak

Both Barack and Hillary campaigned very hard till the very last minute. Both had excellent strategy and both got executed well. I don't find any flaw in them.

I will give you that they both campaigned very hard. However, if you take a serious look at the initial Clinton campaign strategy you will find the following.

a. They planned to go only until February, believing the clinton name and all those initial 100 SD backers as well as all those big states was all they needed to gain the majic number.
b. The completely by passed the triditionally smaller red states as well as the causcus states, and I quote Hillary's statement. "They are too small and insignificant to mount to much of anything". She repeated this severl times when Obama won those states she bypassed several times.
c. There was no plan beyond the second week following the first super tuesday as they figured it would be over by then.
d. They did not plan for or take into consideration that Obama's message would take hold and that he would draw in so many supporters and develope such a strong unrelenting grass roots campaign.
c. They also did not plan for todays new age political junkie, the internet. They relied on only politics and old political money.

I could go on for many pages but that would be a waste of time.

As to the great overwhelming importance of the clintons and hillary in Obama's campaign. Gramted it will be a much easier rode of Obama to gain the white house if HIllary gives 100% of her effort, however, that will make no difference unless the american people look at this with an open mind and heart. It is not up to Hillary, or Obama as much as it is up to the American people to look at the fact, weigh all the issues and vote accordingly. If they vote only along racial or gender lines they have no business voting in the first place.

I was a republican voter since I was 21years old (35 years). The republican party is messed up. They forgot about the American people a long time ago. We became un important, and irrelevent (sp)and of little value. They became cocky, arrogant, self assorbed and focused too much on their own success and wealth building, and left the american people as a mass behind. That is why I am voting democrat for the first time in my life. I want some serious change..I want leadership that takes us into the next 100 years. I fought in one war and several other conflicts during my 22 years active duty army. America has seen enought war, death and dismemberment to last us a life time plus. We need leadership someone that is willing to step up to the table and try diplomacy first, and exhast all options befor pulling our military trigger.
This country needs to prepare for the future, not regress into the stone age, and republicans dont get it. So here I am. But I can assure you I studied and learned all that I could about the candidates as well as their campaign stratigies. If I thought they were off base I sent them an email telling them what I saw they were doing wrong and what I thought they should do. I did that with both Hillary and Obama. Obama in my mind slowed down too early towards the end and focused on the GE too soon. The clinton Campaign was very flawed, as stated above and I have more to reference if you need that information.
But in a nut shell this is over, and we are on a new sheet of music.
That music goes something like this and hopefully ends in kicking the republicans out of the white house for a good 16 years, and taking control of the senate and house so that we can fix this messed up economy as well as education, medical and unemployment as well as homeless mess this country is in.

As Obama has said a dozen plus times. "this is not about me, this is not about senator clinton, this is not about the candidates..this is about us the american people. We deserve more from our elected officials, we deserve the right to a better and brighter future". and with that I will be quiet.. (maybe); June 07, 2008 7:50 PM
greywolf said...: Ditto Uncle John; June 07, 2008 7:51 PM
Beryl said...: greywolf,

I agree with your post and you sound like most of the folks in my neck of the woods - Colorado. I strongly feel that Obama's campaign will turn out many Republicans and Independents (like me). Despite the comments by the RNC that Obama is the most liberal Senator, I disagree. He is a social liberal but I don't see him as a fiscal liberal. This is what attracts many of our Coloradoan Republicans and caused me to declare as a Democrat for the first time in 16 years.

We have so much work to do. We must get EVERYONE out to vote and we need lots and lots of overseers at the polls I know that I'm planning a 2 week vacation around that time so I can look out for shenanigans.; June 07, 2008 8:33 PM
JayW said...: Anyone that thinks Hillary will ever be a supreme court justice is just out of touch with reality.

When was the last time a senator was appointed to the supreme court with no judicial experience?

She couldn't even pass the bar the first time she took it. Yeah, she may be a lawyer... but she is no legal genius.

_________________

On another note. I was actually really impressed by her speach today. I had no faith that it would go as well as it did. I thought I would be bashing her for it... but she proved me wrong. I thought it was gracious and supportive of Obama. I have no complaints with her words today.

Maybe this is the beginning of her turnaround. She gained back today a little bit of all that class that she lost during the race.; June 07, 2008 8:55 PM
Beryl said...: "Anyone that thinks Hillary will ever be a supreme court justice is just out of touch with reality.

When was the last time a senator was appointed to the supreme court with no judicial experience?

She couldn't even pass the bar the first time she took it. Yeah, she may be a lawyer... but she is no legal genius."

Good point JayW. I pull back that recommendation as it does not make sense. (I am in touch with reality.) However, I'd like to see her somewhere she can do the most good but not in the White House as the President nor the VP as long has she is married to Bill.; June 07, 2008 9:16 PM
apissedant said...: Do you ever randomly search around the internet... trolling through various blogs, and reading various political pieces... and get sick to your stomach? Do you ever read some of the stuff out there, and just become instantly embarrassed to be an American, knowing that these complete and total hate filled morons are representing you. That people from around the globe are reading these same retarded rants, and now associating them with Americans. Now, next time you travel abroad, and they ask you where you're from... you'll wonder if they read that crap, and actually think twice before admitting your country of origin.; June 07, 2008 9:45 PM
Meg said...: Apissed:

I teach foreign students from all over the world, and while many of them don't like Bush, they generally like Americans, especially when they come here. Of course here in St. Pete, we're usually kind to strangers. I know that I feel different about how arrogant my government has become, but for the most part thinking people can distinguish between the people of a nation and their president.

It's interesting that many of the Saudis would like us to stay in Iraq. Well interesting, but not surprising.

They see us as innovative and free (to say what we think and buy a gun at K-Mart). Fluency in English and a degree from an American university can get them a better job in their country. They don't seem to realize what a mess our public school system is in.; June 07, 2008 10:02 PM
Yamaka said...: grey:

By hindsight 20/20 we can say what each Candidate should have.. would have done differently

All campaigns take twists and turns; no one could predict what message will stick and what will not. Who will be the Constituency for Barack, who will be for Hillary.

Only after Feb 5, things became clearer to each Campaign. Then, for certain aspects it was too late.

At the State Convention here at Austin, many Hillary supporters claimed "had there been the Wright-gate before Super Tuesday the whole thing would have been decided in favor of Hillary in early March at TX, as with McCain". I believe there is some truth to it.

Using Internet, both Hillary and Barack raised closed to 1/2 billion dollars, the most money raised by any two candidates at any time in our history. Ron Paul used Internet well; but he could not raise this much money! McCain won the Nomination w/o much money!

I guess my point is only by hindsight 20/20 we could criticize the Candidates, not before.
_________________________________
The question to all of you is to analyze why Gore and Kerry lost their elections, very objectively?

How can we possibly avoid the pitfalls?

Both lost the GE by 1 or 2 States.

Gore could not win his home State TN, and lost FL by 500 votes.

Kerry lost by 2 million popular votes and 21 electoral votes.

In 2008, can the history repeat? How to avoid it?

My answer is: Barack must give very visible role for Hillary to attract her supporter to the polls: Most of 18 million voters MUST be attracted to win big in Nov. (This would be very very bad for Hillary personally, for which she has to take a very very low key - must lie low to roar back in 2012, IMO)

Otherwise, the history could repeat again.; June 07, 2008 10:06 PM
greywolf said...: apissedant said...
Do you ever randomly search around the internet... trolling through various blogs, and reading various political pieces... and get sick to your stomach? Do you

I have been doing that for several weeks now, and yes I have found myself to be very embarassed. Not for myself so much but more for them, so much racism, sexism, ignorance, and out right pure stupidity, and borderline over the top insanity.
As for myself, I feel ashamed for them as well as for myself because so much of these blogs are seen by people from other countries. Just the notion that people like that exist in our society. Makes me want to find a remote place far away from all of this and just say to heck with this.; June 07, 2008 10:16 PM
greywolf said...: Yamaka said...

My answer is: Barack must give very visible role for Hillary to attract her supporter to the polls: Most of 18 million voters MUST be attracted to win big in Nov. (This would be very very bad for Hillary personally, for which she has to take a very very low key - must lie low to roar back in 2012, IMO

Yam,

It is obvious there is no talking to you. YOur stuck in Clintonville with those voters. Trust me take the voters from both candidates add them to gether then double that number and that still does not equal what it is going to take to win this election.
We have just had our last dialogue as far as I am concerned. In fact anyone that makes comments as your, or are so filled with ugliness in their comments, they no longer exist in my mind. See I can do that. I no longer see you, and it will remain that way until you either find another blog, or you get off this thing about voters. You look at only one side of the numbers and completely fail to recognize the whole story and picture. sorry but we are done talking or exchanging ideas.; June 07, 2008 10:25 PM
apissedant said...: emma,
My wife is foreign, and I'm currently in college, so I deal with quite a few foreigners there as well. I know that they don't always assume that we are all retarded, and don't always attribute the mistakes of our government to the people within it.

The thing is, I made the mistake of googling around the internet at various blogs and posts about various things from various perspectives. This almost always ends in a twinge of anger and depression with my fellow Americans. Someone posted that Hillary Clinton couldn't even pass the bar the first time, so I googled it, and found way more than I ever wanted to find. There were so many terrible, unsubstantiated claims against the Clintons, and so many terrible slanderous words and just plain mean characterizations of pretty much every person to ever be called a Democrat. There were crazy exadurations. Some were silly, like people still complaining about the expensive haircut for John Edwards. Others I found truly retarded, like talking about how we don't have socialized healthcare because we're free, and that we have the best healthcare in the world that everyone flies in to get. I just don't understand why anyone would choose to continue believing this. I don't understand how they can say that we are the best in the world, and that no one else in the world is free. This is insulting and demeaning to 6 billion people on earth, and I just don't want to be associated with these people. There were also of course pages and pages devoted to all of Bill Clinton's rape victims and the girl Ted Kennedy "murdered." Google is an evil tool.; June 07, 2008 10:27 PM
greywolf said...: Question.. how does the overall delegate count look? I have found that most places including the media are using the numbers from the DCW when reporting. So I guess we are the hmmmm official source of that information.; June 07, 2008 10:29 PM
Hippolytus said...: The person that would make a superb Supreme Court Justice is Barack Obama. His temperment (and his background in constitutional law) would make him an ideal choice...in about 10 years, after two successful terms as POTUS. Then, he would have the trifecta -- holding high office in all three Federal branches, which would be a singularly great achievement.
But, first things first.; June 07, 2008 10:30 PM
apissedant said...: grey,
I am not sure if they outnumber us, or if they are just louder. The fact is, Google, and you find more of them than of us. That scares me.; June 07, 2008 10:33 PM
apissedant said...: hipp,
I want a liberal CJ. Too bad Roberts is so young. He isn't a bad guy, I just disagree with him on pretty much everything. Maybe some huge life thing will happen to him, and he'll magically come around and stop siding with the neocons.; June 07, 2008 10:38 PM
greywolf said...: just the fact that they exist is scary. So backwards, it makes me think sometimes that we have regressed to the 1400's. For the life of me I can not understand how some people can take snapshots of facts, then completely twist them into something so wrong, vulgar, ugly, and out right inhuman at times. So many people see and hear only what they want to see and hear, they seem to be afraid of looking at the whole picture for fear they will discover that their thoughts and beliefs have revolved around false statements, mistruths and out right lies. To face such a reality for some seems to be more than they are mentally or emotionally capable of handling.; June 07, 2008 10:39 PM
apissedant said...: grey,
Don't you often feel like your spinning your wheels? Two steps forward, 8 steps back? I got another email today talking about how, since the Democrats took over Congress, our economy has collapsed. I honestly couldn't make myself respond. I know the facts, I know it is a silly stupid argument. I know that half the facts they argued were in no way facts, but what is the use? These people refuse to consider actual facts, or think rationally. They are doomed to be stupid and vote stupid and be a drain on society until the day they die.
Some are actually quite smart too. I know several people with illogical political views, but that are great inventors, Chemists, and technicians. I wonder how their brains can be so well tuned to do one task, and so bankrupt when it comes to another task.; June 07, 2008 10:50 PM
Uncle John said...: Barack as CJ after POTUS:

William Howard Taft did that.; June 07, 2008 10:51 PM
greywolf said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 07, 2008 10:59 PM
Beryl said...: Yamaka wrote:
"My answer is: Barack must give very visible role for Hillary to attract her supporter to the polls: Most of 18 million voters MUST be attracted to win big in Nov. (This would be very very bad for Hillary personally, for which she has to take a very very low key - must lie low to roar back in 2012, IMO)"
I doubt that more than 10% of those voters will still be loyal to her in a couple months. I don't believe that most are that ignorant and blinded by gender loyalism. Nobody except a few fringe supporters like to be "owned" by anyone and used as bargaining chips. Intelligent supporters were anxiously begging her to "release them" on Wednesday. This includes the NY delegation AND Rendell .

BTW, he will never get elected in 2012 if Obama loses in 2008. Right or wrong, she will be blamed for his loss and 4 more years of Republican rule.; June 07, 2008 11:00 PM
Beryl said...: Meant to say:

"BTW, SHE will never get elected in 2012 if Obama loses in 2008. Right or wrong, she will be blamed for his loss and 4 more years of Republican rule."; June 07, 2008 11:02 PM
apissedant said...: grey,
I feel your pain. I didn't even qualify for a tax rebate of any sort this year. I had 1170 dollars in income last year. I am living primarily off of the GI Bill. Mine is more planned. I didn't make any mistakes or get screwed, I just decided to better myself by going to school. Still hurts though.; June 07, 2008 11:05 PM
greywolf said...: BTW, he will never get elected in 2012 if Obama loses in 2008. Right or wrong, she will be blamed for his loss and 4 more years of Republican rule.

very true beryl... the clinton's did say Obama was:

a. unelectable
b. less qualified than McCain
c. that McCain was more electable and presidential
d. lacking in experience
e. unqualifed because he had not yet passed the commander in chief threshold test.
f. was less qualifed than the clintons..
g. that obama was unable to gain the white, hard working white.. white blue collar voters.

too much was said... he will have a lot to overcome... but I truly believe that if any one can do it he can with our help and prayers.
Obama has been able to shrug those thing off so well enough to gain the nomination.. which speaks for its self.; June 07, 2008 11:09 PM
greywolf said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 07, 2008 11:13 PM
greywolf said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 07, 2008 11:17 PM
apissedant said...: grey,
I agree. I think he will get elected. I hope our country is smart enough to give him credit for what he does right, and not blame him for the fact that our nation's economy will not instantly turn around once he is elected and give everyone free cars, jobs, and flat screen tvs on his third day in office.; June 07, 2008 11:24 PM
suzihussein22 said...: To greywolf and all-I don't know if I've done this before, so I want to humbly say thank you for your service and sacrifice to our country. My children have learned this also. Freedom isn't free. I can't serve for medical reasons and my husband can't serve because of red tape bs. Only a few other members of my family couldn't serve for medical reasons. Then again, I wonder if I would be here now if my mom had gotten accepted.:); June 07, 2008 11:25 PM
greywolf said...: Thank you soft spoken.. yes you have said it befor and I thank you again.

apissedent. I agree with your last statement.

I also deleted those other comments because I really dont want everyone else reading them. It was for our conversation. I really dont want any sympathy..my situations is just a clear example of how life works sometimes. Shit happens in life and you have to dig your self out of it slowly, and hopefully rebuild to some level of normalicy and self respect.; June 07, 2008 11:30 PM
Beryl said...: Greywolf said:
"too much was said... he will have a lot to overcome... but I truly believe that if any one can do it he can with our help and prayers.
Obama has been able to shrug those thing off so well enough to gain the nomination.. which speaks for its self"

I so agree with this. When he wins, he will thank everyone, including the Clintons, but we all know what they did to damage his campaign.

Speaking of prayers, there are Obama prayer groups and events. Here is one:

MyBO: PRAY FOR AMERICA DAY (#2)

Time: Sunday, June 8 at 6:00 AM - 15 minutes
Location: In your own home, or wherever you are, anywhere in the world.
Chicago, IL 60643
Directions:
Kneel, stand, walk, sit, lay prostrate. Include singing,
moaning, praising, dancing, waving your arms. Shout, whisper,
meditate silently. "The effective, fervent prayer of the
righteous availeth much."
http://my.barackobama.com/page/event/detail/4sj2

(BTW, I spend time in homeless shelters too. Rewarding, isn't it? ); June 07, 2008 11:31 PM
greywolf said...: beryl, yes it is very rewarding. I arun across so many young vets, older vets and retired vets that are homeless. I am unable to take them in, but I am able to help them in other ways. I do spend a lot of time with them. I try to take several each day I am there for coffee, sitting and talking, trying to find sources of help for them. I have managed to get 30 people off the street so far this year. which really makes me feel good to know that I was able to help them that much.; June 07, 2008 11:37 PM
suzihussein22 said...: beryl-

Yes, it is rewarding. One of the things my husband used to do is serve a 12 hr. shift at Shoney's and the manager challenged some of his town's notables to do this also. Then he would challenge them to match tips. 100% of this was donated to the local rescue mission. Yes we can make a difference one individual at a time.; June 07, 2008 11:42 PM
greywolf said...: I dont know how many of you have taken the time to read the news this weekend.. but..

Has anyone noticed the number of countries that we have been at odds for over the years.. that now want to sit and talk to the next president in hopes of working out our differences?; June 07, 2008 11:44 PM
suzihussein22 said...: greywolf-YES. It's been so inspiring to see a change in attitude already.; June 07, 2008 11:47 PM
apissedant said...: grey,
Absolutely astonishing and wonderful news. All we need is a great president to answer the phone at 3 am and talk to them.

Does anyone remember that pesky group in Northern Ireland called the IRA? Don't hear too much about them anymore, do we? Now Northern Ireland's economy is doing much better too. Not as well as Ireland, but they're doing better. Which came first? Was it the good economy or the peace? Was it a combination of the two?
How can we take this lesson from Northern Ireland and spread it throughout the rest of the war torn regions?

It is obvious that talking is the first step. If we only communicate through the barrel of a gun, then we are doomed to always be fighting, and never understand each other. Talking doesn't always mean negotiating, and negotiating doesn't always mean caving in to terrorists.; June 07, 2008 11:53 PM
greywolf said...: Soft and beryl...

There is only so much we can do as individuals. We need a government that has a keen interest in America and its people. One that realizes we have a lot to do right here inside our own borders. My main cause is the homeless, the numbers of homeless in Oregon are unreal. There are 3000 children that are with homeless parents. That is so unreal and unforgiveable for our government to turn its back on those people. I watch schools close up, then sold to raise funds. Does anyone realize how many homeless people such place could house? But because of budget problems they sell the buildings to raise money to make up short falls in the budgets. I can blame them but that does nothing for the over 3000 homeless people that live in my county.; June 07, 2008 11:54 PM
greywolf said...: That is one thing that I am going to ask of this president. To provide funds to purchase these building and then renovatet them to house the homeless.; June 07, 2008 11:55 PM
suzihussein22 said...: greywolf-Here's something if your still having those cold temps-

http://www.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/top_ten/index/php/20080211.phtml

How cold is it? I've seen it snow at 39F. I've only had frostbite one time. I've almost had pneumonia after being in a snow shower waiting for the school bus. We didn't use to close school so quickly down thisaways. People are way too sue-happy.:( There should be caps on damages.; June 07, 2008 11:56 PM
apissedant said...: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/07/AR2008060700193.html?hpid=topnews

This is a Washington Post article about the military and excessive debts of the members. It is something talked about in this forum a few days ago. It is funny the way it is phrased. It talks about a disproportionate amount of military members in financial troubles, and that this is hurting the readiness of the military. As if the fact that our military members are risking their lives, and broke while doing it is not enough incentive for us to care. They still have to explain exactly how it might hurt us.; June 07, 2008 11:59 PM
greywolf said...: appissedent, Soft and beryl...

true.. all we need is a president that cares. One that is willing to do what ever it takes to bring peace, but isnt afraid to use force to defend our allies too.
It is a matter of balance ... do what you can first through honest upfront dialogue, then if forced into a corner where you have no choice then and only then do what you have to do.; June 07, 2008 11:59 PM
apissedant said...: grey,
The public doesn't like that though. The public wants to negotiate by force. Barack was basically forced to say that he would never negotiate with Hamas. The voters are still showing over and over, that they don't know and don't care; that they are blissfully ignorant.; June 08, 2008 12:02 AM
greywolf said...: You have to remember apissedent.. many of those they talk about are national guard and reserve soldiers. They were taken away from jobs that were paying much better then their military salaries. Most of them joined the guard and reserves for the pride of serving, the extra income, as well as educational benefits. Now they have been dragged off to fight a war, with pay at times 1/4 of what their civilian job provided. Of course they will be in financial trouble, what hurts most is when they return, those jobs they had are no longer there, which hurts even more. It tickes me off so bad, that McCain doesnt get it, or refuses to see what is happen to those that serve. It is even worse that our own president does not seem to care.; June 08, 2008 12:05 AM
suzihussein22 said...: greywolf-They actually close schools?(rhetorical question) I've just never heard of it before. What I'm trying to say is people need to stop feeling so much apathy about their surroundings. That's a great idea. We are in touch with one of our Sen. right now. We'll have to ask if there are any buildings are unoccupied and can be sold and converted. Then we know a couple of people that have ties to non-profits who would know how to implement that type of plan. I had never seen that type of connection/possibility before.; June 08, 2008 12:08 AM
Yamaka said...: "BTW, he will never get elected in 2012 if Obama loses in 2008. Right or wrong, she will be blamed for his loss and 4 more years of Republican rule."

beryl:

My view is if Hillary is given a prominent role the Party will gain 10 Senate seats and the WH.

If not, the Party will lose the WH and the Congress.

Barack and the Party bigwigs can make up their minds to go alone or go with her.

I am sure she will do whatever Barack wants her to do.

If they decide to go alone AND as a consequence they lose, how in the world anyone can blame her for the loss? It will be their stupid decision, and they have to live with it.

For her personal political life she would prefer to lie low for sometime!

As long as she is healthy, Hillary will be in American politics for at least another 20 years, IMO.

Barack knows it. He must find a way to make her work for him and the Party.
____________________________

Some people fear that Bill Clinton would interfere if Hillary is given prominent role.

False.

He will NOT campaign for anybody, unless Hillary asks him for. He came back to politics because of her.

Barack need NOT ask Bill to campaign for him.

He will take away too much oxygen. Media will cover him too much, and they will distort and hype whatever he says.

Barack can ask only Hillary to take a prominent role w/o Bill, which is doable. Bill has tons of things to do with his Foundation - his plate is always full; he won't miss anything for a second.

He is the only Democratic President elected twice to WH since FDR in the last Century! That honor and distinction is enough for him!!; June 08, 2008 12:08 AM
suzihussein22 said...: goodnight y'all; June 08, 2008 12:14 AM
greywolf said...: wow... it was so nice and quiet.. now we are back with that grabage.

Your on ignor Yam.. at least as far as I am concerned.

Yes softspoken there were three schools closed in this area after newer, large, and update schools were built in more central locations. The older schools could be converted as follows. Take one class room which has two doors, divide it in half. Put in a small kitchenette, and a living sleeping area, something like an embassy suites. Those rooms could easily handle a small family of three for a short period of time. For larger famlies, do not divide up the class rooms. For every 4 class rooms divided, you take one class room and divide it up into a seperate female and male bathroom with showers and such. An average size school could handle 200 people single people... or 25 to 30 small and medium size families.; June 08, 2008 12:20 AM
greywolf said...: night softspoken. have a great night.; June 08, 2008 12:22 AM
greywolf said...: apissedent...
I hear ya.. but it is ironic as can be that Isreal is holding low level talks with Hamas and has stated that they have been holding those talks for over a year now. Yet McCain and Bush refuse to also talk. Now those are two very uninformed people.; June 08, 2008 12:26 AM
greywolf said...: well I am also out of here for the night. You all have a great night.
Nice talking to you apissedent, soft and beryl..

See you all later.; June 08, 2008 12:29 AM

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