Democratic Convention Watch: Open Thread

Tuesday, April 01, 2008

Open Thread

WE'VE MOVED! Democratic Convention Watch is now at http://www.DemocraticConventionWatch.com

What is McCain's latest "senior moment", what does Obama need to do to win in November or whatever else is on your mind.

And please be excellent to one another. We do not accept name calling or any attacks on our commenters. Any objectionable comments will be deleted. Try to be civil.

Thanks!

New Open Thread here
This one is now closed for comments.

4188 comments:

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suzihussein22 said...: jean-I'm having a good day. I made breakfast for supper. How many of you guys know what grits are? :) My son and I have already done dishes and now it's time for laundry.; July 31, 2008 7:42 PM
Vicki in Seattle said...: a couple DOZEN stuffed green peppers? you must be expecting a crowd!

glad the place got cleaned up, and now I know that there is a little button to send Matt and them emails. I'm good with that.; July 31, 2008 7:44 PM
jean said...: Indy,
THE PADRES SUCK.
But I still care.
jean; July 31, 2008 7:44 PM
Vicki in Seattle said...: hee! I know what grits are! I have some in the cupboard. kinda down-home, un-fancy (nonelite?) polenta.; July 31, 2008 7:47 PM
apissedant said...: lol,
very astute observation Dave.

jean,
No such luck, I think the motor is on its last leg. It can't make the brushes spin anymore, and it doesn't suck very well anymore... Oh well... I'm outta here in December, I'll just have to rent a steam cleaner one last time. =/; July 31, 2008 7:51 PM
suzihussein22 said...: vicki-They are similar to polenta, without the onions. I like cheddar on mine and mix them with my eggs. In spite of the Southern image, I didn't have anything fried or gravified. :); July 31, 2008 7:52 PM
suzihussein22 said...: apissedant-Did you lose your bearings? All that spinning for nothing?; July 31, 2008 7:55 PM
Beryl said...: Pat got on Rachel's nerve yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6VoWdMVBvA

He got on my last nerve today so I sent in my email to Hardball:

To Pat Buchanan: What is Wrong w/McCain?

During the Democratic Primary, when Sen Obama didn't get the majority of the white vote in a state, he constantly asked this "What is wrong with Obama?"

After the South Carolina primary, Clinton stopped getting the majority of the black vote. He never asked, "What is wrong with Clinton?"

Now, he constantly reminds the public that Obama is getting the majority of the black vote based on the polls (as if this is a negative). Why is it he never asks, "What is wrong w/McCain?"

Racism? Of course. He clearly has a double-standard since he never asks the same question of the white candidate.

Beryl
Centennial, Colorado; July 31, 2008 8:00 PM
Vicki in Seattle said...: heh. you don't have to put onions in polenta. I think polenta is made from corn, and grits from hominy, but the two are very very similar (in fact hominy and corn are relatives, I believe).

there are tons of polenta recipes, and you can even make it with cheese (like grits!).

what, no gravy? did your license to live there expire? at least have a little sweet tea.; July 31, 2008 8:02 PM
apissedant said...: soft,
I spend a lot of time spinning my wheels and not accomplishing much. You get used to it after awhile. ;); July 31, 2008 8:04 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Beryl-

I agree.

Pat Buchanan gets on my nerves when he says 'What's wrong with Obama? Why can't he close the deal?"

Grrrr...

It is only the end of July.
It is not time for the 'deal' to be closed!

What is wrong with McCain???
Lots of things:
He is a grumpy old man!
He is on the wrong side of the issues!
He can't remember anything from one day to the other!

McComplain needs to retire, go sit on his front porch in his rocking chair and spend time with his great-grandchilden!

Obama '08; July 31, 2008 8:05 PM
apissedant said...: Why hasn't Keith put Dana Milbank on World's Worst yet?; July 31, 2008 8:18 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: apissedant-

It may be time for Keith to expand his list to the Top 10 worse people ;); July 31, 2008 8:21 PM
jean said...: suzi,
I am from OHIO. I know what grits are LOL. Breakfast for dinner is the best for a late night dinner.
Hope you have a good night:)

vicki,
The coach of both kids said they need to gain 15lbs. Stuffed Green Peppers are a lot of protein etc.
They have to eat these 2 times a day above balanced meals.
I figured better than McDonalds.
Leah did great with the info.
Matt does not mind if you use it at all.
Me too. I love gravy.

Ap,
Sorry about the steam cleaner.
You may be spinning your wheels now but it will change soon.
You will dream of these days. LOL
jean; July 31, 2008 8:23 PM
suzihussein22 said...: vicki-Nope. I gotta have a little (green)tea with my sugar though. It'll never be enough to improve my disposition. ;) There must be a malfunction in my southernness. I don't call people honey either. Weird, huh?

apissedant-That still puts you ahead of a lot of people. Chin up!; July 31, 2008 8:24 PM
apissedant said...: Leah,
That's a good idea, but I fear that changing it to 10 would require him to change it to 100 come November.; July 31, 2008 8:42 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: 'polenta'?

My grandmother called it corn meal mush.

She always made about twice as much as would be eaten at breakfast, then put the extra in the fridge in a loaf pan. For supper (yes, the last meal of the day was NOT called dinner [that was the noon-time meal]), she would slice the corn meal mush and fry it on a griddle. Put a bit of butter and honey on it, and it was delicious!

Mike; July 31, 2008 9:08 PM
apissedant said...: damn Mike, you're old.

My 88 year old grandfather calls dinner supper and lunch dinner.; July 31, 2008 9:16 PM
Beryl said...: Obama needs to release attack dogs. We need Obama to stay above the fray but he needs others to go negative with the TRUTH for one reason.

NEGATIVE CAMPAIGNING WORKS!

We need to get the public to get SCARED, really SCARED about McBush. The economy is going into the toilet and BILLIONS of $$$ is being thrown into a war in which we should NEVER have engaged.

The middle class is dwindling and the youth are in deep yogurt with the current administration which is destined to continue for another 4 years under McBush.

The public needs to be afraid -- very afraid -- of what the RNC is thrusting upon the USA.

Maybe Kaine is one of attack dogs Obama needs to do the job.; July 31, 2008 9:17 PM
apissedant said...: beryl,
Kaine ran a positive campaign for Governor. He has a style much like Obama, just without the eloquent speaking. I wouldn't expect him to be a rabid attack dog. What's more, we're winning with positive, so why change horses? Yes, truth does need to come out, but I would implore Obama to ensure his campaign continues to focus on the positives of what he wants to do, and spend very little time on the negatives of what McCain wants to do.; July 31, 2008 9:21 PM
Beryl said...: apis,
McEvil's ads are working. Obama's lead is narrowing. Do we wait until McLame is ahead and we can't catch up or do we shut him down now? I think the latter. Shut the old coot down -- hard and with the quickness.; July 31, 2008 9:30 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: The polls are going to be going up and down for the next THREE months.

I don't think there is anything to worry about.

McCain's numbers should be going down a bit - even the republicans are upset that McCain has gone negative.

We haven't seen what the results of the McCain ads have done yet and probably won't see anything for a week. It takes time to poll people after something in the media happens.

I do think that whenever anyone throws mud at Obama it boomerangs back on the mudslinger ;)

Obama '08; July 31, 2008 9:35 PM
jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; July 31, 2008 9:37 PM
apissedant said...: I'm not advising we rest on a laurels and not fight to win this thing. There is still a chance to "clinch defeat from the jaws of victory," but as of now we are well ahead. I see no narrowing. Here the the RCP average graph. There is a lot of noise in the graph, so an individual day should never be looked at, just the basic trends. The basic trend right now is rather parallel. McCain is not gaining ground.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

Here is the electoral map:

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Pres/Maps/Jul31.html

The difference in number of EVs has not changed by any measurable amount. Don't get too trigger happy beryl.

Remember one last item: Obama's platform is a new type of Washington, a new type of campaigning, and HOPE for our future. His entire platform is positive, so going negative goes against everything that has put him ahead in the first place.; July 31, 2008 9:38 PM
tmess2 said...: Right now McCain's ads are silly and counterproductive.

There are ads he could run that would be negative that would worry me a lot more than the recent batch.

I think Obama's response ad to the last batch has just the right mix of positive for Obama and negative for McCain to combat the silly ads. What we learned in 1992 (and forgot in 2004) is that you do need to respond effectively to negative ads, but you don't need to go negative yourself.

While I would like to be a little more ahead at this point, I would take a consistent 4-5% lead in mid-September. I think if we have that lead at that point (like Reagan in 1980) we will close the deal in the debates -- which is the first time that a lot of voters look closely at the two candidates -- McCain will not hold up well head-to-head on stage with Obama and Obama will look the more prepared and presidential.; July 31, 2008 9:41 PM
apissedant said...: tmess2,
AGREED =); July 31, 2008 9:43 PM
Beryl said...: tmess,
I agree that I'd like to see them head-to-head. With the right preparation, O will say something innocuous but damning which will cause McC to blow a gasket. Hopefully, he will be "McCain being McCain" . He will either tell an inappropriate joke or lose his temper.; July 31, 2008 9:46 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: apissedant said...
damn Mike, you're old.

AP -

Enough og the agism comments towards a fellow D!!

VBG

Actually, it's a 'culture' thing. I grew up on a farm, where the largest meal of the day is at noon-time. They still call the mid-day meal 'dinner' in that area.

The name for commercial carbonated beverages is 'pop' throughout most of Indiana. It is called 'soda' in many areas of the country, and 'Coke' (no matter the brand-name) in other areas.

Mike; July 31, 2008 9:49 PM
apissedant said...: Mike,
Yeah, but I wanted to make an age joke anyways. My grandpa was raised on a farm too. He ended up working in a factory in his adult life, back when Michigan still had factories. As far as pop goes, I have that battle every time I go to school. Everyone laughs at me when I call it pop. =(; July 31, 2008 10:12 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; July 31, 2008 10:27 PM
apissedant said...: I didn't notice this earlier. SUPER COOL!!! GREAT MAN!!! On Countdown, the guest said, "if Carter could have sold us on his energy policy, we would be in a lot better shape now." I love it when people realize Carter had more foresight and intelligence than Reagan, Bush, and Bush 43 combined. He didn't get anything done, but it wasn't because he didn't have any ideas. 1977 was not a good year to be President. (neither was 1978, 79, or 80); July 31, 2008 10:28 PM
suzihussein22 said...: beryl-I also don't think there's any reason to sink to McCain's level.

m in md-Breakfast, lunch, and supper for me and then there's soda. I get raised eyebrows over that one too. This seems to be the area where it's all coke.; July 31, 2008 10:47 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Apissedant

I don't consider myself old but I also call lunch dinner and evening meal supper. LOL But if I'm going out to eat I will say dinner [go figure] !LOLJean; July 31, 2008 11:01 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Suzihussein

I will let you keep your grits can't stand them . Now give me homemade biskets and gravy with alittle honey.oh yes!!!Jean; July 31, 2008 11:03 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: AP and Suzi:

http://popvssoda.com:2998

and

http://www.yumsugar.com/176785

Mike; July 31, 2008 11:04 PM
suzihussein22 said...: aunt jean-When I'm going out to eat, I say NO DISHES!

apis-If it's okay with the ob, I hope your other half can go walking almost every day. I know that made my labor easier. No epidurals for me.; July 31, 2008 11:08 PM
apissedant said...: I'm in an everything but pop area I guess. Some soda, some coke, some other... no pop. I miss my 100% pop homeland. =( I could not tell you if my hometown votes Republican or Democrat, but I can guarantee you they will all call that wonderful beverage by the proper name: POP.

It is the birth place of FAYGO, which is the coolest beverage ever. Although last time I went home I was really disappointed. I used to get a 2 liter of FAYGO for like, 50 cents, and it would cost me a dollar for PEPSI. Now FAYGO is the same price as PEPSI!!! What gives??!?!?!

(Faygo is important because all of their flavor names end with pop, i.e. red pop, orange pop, rock and rye pop, etc.); July 31, 2008 11:13 PM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; July 31, 2008 11:14 PM
apissedant said...: soft,
She lives in Holland and doesn't own a car. She bikes and walks everyday. My wife is superwoman. :); July 31, 2008 11:14 PM
Aunt Jean said...: suzihussein22

I say AMEN to the no dishes. LOL LOL That was a good one! Jean; July 31, 2008 11:15 PM
suzihussein22 said...: aunt jean-I'll take the honey, yum yum. :) Speaking of biskets, did you ever hear the expression towards E. TN that the whiter the bread, the sooner you're dead? That was told at a grist mill in Pigeon Forge, TN. I'll never go there during a holiday again!; July 31, 2008 11:16 PM
Aunt Jean said...: suzihussein22

For some reason that quote sounds like something I had heard before but not quite sure where .I have been to Pigeon Forge. So maybe that is where I heard it who knows. I've been to a lot of places so it's hard to keep up with things.I pefer wheat bread over white. Except when it comes to biskets.Jean; July 31, 2008 11:22 PM
suzihussein22 said...: peevish-Some parts of our town wasn't really set up for pedestrians, but I can walk where I live. Strange, I was just talking about Faygo this week. When it was on sale, I could have some. Even though I grew up with middle class parents, every extra penny went to the principal on the house. Nashville's not a cheap place to live in either.

m in md-I'm definitely a maverick in my own state. I'm surprised they haven't drummed me out of here. lol

This seemed like Dem country growing up. I can only hope we'll start taking the road less travelled again.; July 31, 2008 11:25 PM
Aunt Jean said...: I just don't understand why anyone that isn't rich would want to vote for a republican. Jean; July 31, 2008 11:31 PM
Aunt Jean said...: suzihussein22

I was lucky the area that I lived in Tenn. was democratic. Oh YEA!!!Jean; July 31, 2008 11:33 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Did anyone on here get an email from Obama to donate to get to go an met him in person in Denver? I did and guess what I donated. Jean; July 31, 2008 11:35 PM
Vicki in Seattle said...: m in md, my gramma did the same thing with leftover grits - put it in a pan in the frigge, then cut it up into strips and fried it in the bacon grease leftover from breakfast. she lived to a ripe old age, too - 89 (just a month shy of 90).

let me tell you , those leftover fried grits were, if anything, better than the fresh-cooked ones.

and whoooooo her fried chicken! and in her book, "jello" qualified as "salad", even if there wasn't anything but marshmallows in there.; July 31, 2008 11:36 PM
Beryl said...: The High Road: I do hope you folks are right about there being no need to go negative to win. I really do. I just don't have a good feeling about the Dem remaining passive.

Please prove me wrong.

Carter: His advice to stop being dependent on fossil fuel was spot on. The country should have listened.

Pop/Soda Debate: Dad was from a farm in Texas so he said "Soda pop" or worse yet -- "Soda water".; July 31, 2008 11:43 PM
Beryl said...: Hmmmmm. I thought we'd gotten rid of the trolls.; July 31, 2008 11:45 PM
Vicki in Seattle said...: what, did one of them show up again? unless you are referring to conversations about food.

I may have to get down that box of grits. wish they weren't so expensive in these parts.; July 31, 2008 11:48 PM
Beryl said...: Just got this from our county Dems list:
JOHN MCCAIN'S WIFE HIDING WAR PROFITS, UNTAXED OFF-SHORE ACCOUNTS?
http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/McCainsHidingWarProfits.htm; July 31, 2008 11:48 PM
Beryl said...: Yep, a message from stop slipped through.

I created a filter so it will get trashed from now on. It will also trash responses to the troll.; August 01, 2008 12:04 AM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; August 01, 2008 12:15 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Beryl that doesn't surprise me about Cindy McCain.

Vicki in Seattle

Food period is expensive. You go to the store and spend 100 dollars and don't get much.Something has got to change or the avg. person is going to be lucky to eat beans and rice. Jean; August 01, 2008 12:16 AM
Richard said...: Obama's current state-by-state lead on fivethirtyeight.com, arranged from safest to most out-of-reach. Note that Obama leads by at least 5 points in states totaling 243 electoral votes, leads by 0.7-4.1% is states totaling 63 EVs.

I would also like to point out that moving down the list, the tipping point is Michigan. Obama needs neither OH nor FL, nor even CO if he can keep NH and MI in the fold.

Complete listings:

DC (3) +60.3
VT (3) +26.0
RI (4) +22.0
HI (4) +19.9
NY (31) +17.5
MD (10) +17.4
MA (12) +17.2
CT (7) +16.7
CA (55) +15.3
IL (21) +14.1
ME (4) +13.1
WA (11) +11.6
DE (3) +9.6
NJ (15) +9.6
MN (10) +8.8
WI (10) +8.8
OR (7) +8.6
PA (21) +6.8
IA (7) +6.5
NM (5) +5.4
NH (4) +4.1
MI (17) +3.3
CO (9) +2.0
OH (20) +1.6
VA (13) +0.7
NV (5) -0.9
MT (3) -1.4
MO (11) -1.6
FL (27) -2.1
IN (11) -3.6
NC (15) -3.6
ND (3) -4.7
WV (5) -5.6
SD (3) -6.9
AK (3) -7.3
AZ (10) -7.9
GA (15) -8.2
SC (8) -9.2
TX (34) -9.2
MS (6) -11.1
AR (6) -12.7
KY (8) -13.6
LA (9) -13.1
TN (11) -13.8
KS (6) -14.6
ID (4) -16.2
WY (3) -16.4
NE (5) -16.9
AL (9) -18.0
OK (7) -19.5
UT (5) -25.4; August 01, 2008 12:29 AM
Richard said...: In case anyone is wondering, the figures in parentheses are each state's electoral vote count.; August 01, 2008 12:42 AM
tmess2 said...: If my math on that list is right, the tipping state is currently Colorado, not Michigan; August 01, 2008 12:47 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: The discussion about food got me to thinking of my grandfather. His garden was almost 2 acres in size. When you have a family of 13 kids growing up in the depression, you can probably see why his garden was so large.

On St. Patrick's day (or as near to that date as possible), he would plant potatoes. Soon after, he would plant peas (English peas for you Southerners, vbg) and onion sets. When the peas were ready in early to mid-May, he would pull some baby potatoes and pearl onions.

He also had a few cows on the farm, and hand milked them. He had a cream separator in the basement. The fresh milk went in and skim milk and cream came out.

He would give the peas, potatoes and onions to my grandmother, she would use some of the fresh cream and make a white sauce, with a bit of salt and pepper, and serve some of the best veggies anyone could ever want!

Mike; August 01, 2008 1:35 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: FHQ has a State Ranking graph (under the map within the article) and their tipping point is PA.

http://frontloading.blogspot.com/2008/07/electoral-college-map-73008.html

,; August 01, 2008 2:17 AM
Richard said...: tmess - of course you are correct. Not sure why I made that mistake. In any case, the situation is currently very positive for Obama.; August 01, 2008 2:23 AM
Richard said...: Leah, the difference between frontloading's list and mine is that they seem to think PA is much closer than fivethirtyeight and I do. I'm pretty sure they're quite wrong on that count. Unless Obama completely collapses he will carry PA.; August 01, 2008 2:39 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Rich-

I have no opinion either way. I haven't given them a good look yet. I just wanted to post the FHQ info for anyone that didn't know about the tipping chart at FHQ (it's a new feature over there).

Nighty - night ya'll ;); August 01, 2008 2:51 AM
Independent Voter said...: Leah, something I thought you might be interested in. Obama is supposed to be on The View on Monday, and McDouchebag is supposed to be there on Tuesday.; August 01, 2008 1:44 PM
Independent Voter said...: AJ, I meant to post this last night in response to your post, but got really busy helping my brother.

Your post: "Did anyone on here get an email from Obama to donate to get to go an met him in person in Denver? I did and guess what I donated. Jean

First, WOW!!!!!!! I NEVER in my wildest dreams thought I would hear that you donated to Obama. I'm sure that you already realize this, but I just wanted to make sure that you were aware that it is for a "chance" to go to the convention. I'm also not sure if you realized it or not, but you were also able to enter the drawing without donating. Something to do with "lottery" laws in some states.

Regardless, you have no idea how happy I am to see that you are on board. Not that I ever doubted that you would come around, I just think it's great that you have found it within yourself to support the candidate that is closest in support of the issues that YOU care about. :); August 01, 2008 2:14 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: From Electoral-vote.com

Here is a list of the other TEN people running for president other than Obama and McCain:

1. Gene Amandson (Prohibition Party)
2. Chuck Baldwin (Constitution Party)
3. Bob Barr (Libertarian Party)
4. Roger Calero (Socialist Workers Party)
5. Charles Jay (Boston Tea Party)
6. Gloria La Riva (Party for Socialism and Liberation)
7. Frank McEnulty (New American Independent Party)
8. Cynthia McKinney (Green Party)
9. Brian Moore (Socialist Party)
10. Ted Weill (Reform Party)

Their photos are shown on the link above.; August 01, 2008 2:31 PM
jean said...: Indy,
Sorry Bill was so upset because he missed the Shaker.
Both my kids were on the coach,
just got up,screamed earthquake and kept watching the TV.
The coach moved and they thought it was cool.
Daughter got in the shower 2 minutes later and I pulled her behind out because of possible aftershocks.
Teenagers will age you.
Sorry so late in the response.
Real busy and age is making the memory go.
jean; August 01, 2008 2:43 PM
jean said...: COUCH not COACH
Told you I am failing.
jean; August 01, 2008 2:44 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Jean,

I've heard that memory is the second thing to go as we age, but I forget what the first thing is.

VBG

Mike; August 01, 2008 4:08 PM
Karen Anne said...: Soda? pop? Are you guys talking about tonic?

As to trolls, ask yourself if reading/responding is worth one second of your life, which is not, after all, infinite, and you will skip right over them unread; August 01, 2008 6:20 PM
suzihussein22 said...: m in md-I think hearing is the first thing to go, so don't worry. You don't have to listen to me in this format. :)

WOOHOO !!!-

http://tinyurl.com/6ptu9n

This is a GE indicator based on economics.

OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA; August 01, 2008 6:28 PM
jean said...: karen anne,
While you were gone the Trolls of our OZ have been banished.
I enquired how to speak to the Wizard(Matt) and Leah(Glenda the Good Witch) told me of the e-mail to contact the Wizard.
I found my red glass slippers in the back of my closet and contacted the wizard and THE TROLLS ARE GONE.
The Wizard(Matt) said he would appreciate communication. I think everyone has had enough.
Well..........It kinda went like that;)
We can now live in a place where we can agree to disagree.
It is Friday and I really need it.
Can you tell??????????/
jean

mike in maryland,
Thank you for the confirmation of my senility.
I am willing to bet I will get better when all the teenagers leave;)
jean; August 01, 2008 6:46 PM
suzihussein22 said...: jean-Let us give cheers to Glenda, the Wiz, and Dorothy for banishing a humbug. Hip, hip, hooray!; August 01, 2008 7:02 PM
jean said...: suzi,
You just became the Lollipop King LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jean; August 01, 2008 7:09 PM
Independent Voter said...: LOL Jean and suzi!

-----

On another note, McCain has a new "web ad" out entitled "The One", that I find to be absolutely hilarious. The only part of it that I find to be stupid is that Charlton Heston, a Repuke before he died, playing Moses and parting the Red Sea.

The rest of it, I thought was a great ad promoting Obama. Because the question at the end asked "Is he ready to lead?" My answer? ABSO-Fing-LUTELY!!!!!!

I'm still trying to figure out why McCain keeps promoting Obama in his ads. Kind of ironic if you ask me. McCain is using this ad to "attack" Obama as a means to mock him, but when was the last time McDouchebag actually ran an ad supporting himself as opposed to throwing mud at Obama? Answer, NEVER.; August 01, 2008 7:14 PM
jean said...: Indy,
This is part of a series.
I think they are going to do this like the series "LOST".
There is thought behind this.
Trying to show Obama as a cult, koolaid etc.
Looking at this and if done properly this is scary.
Fear is very powerful.
Obama needs to get on this fast.

jean; August 01, 2008 7:22 PM
Richard said...: I'm not particularly worried about this ad. It seems to me to be so transparent and corny that it is unlikely to accomplish anything but make McCain appear even pettier and more out-of-touch.; August 01, 2008 7:58 PM
Independent Voter said...: Jean. I just think that the ads, like the one today, do nothing positive for Mac. After all, why would you show your opponent in front of huge crowds Especially when Mac has a hard time attracting even a thousand people to one of his events.; August 01, 2008 8:01 PM
Beryl said...: Intelligent people know that the McStupid ads are just that. However, methinks that you over-estimate the capacity of ordinary Americans.

Yesterday, CNN went to some podunk town in MO and the mayor and other citizens INSISTED that Obama was a Muslim. They did this after the interviewer informed them that Obama professes to be a Christian.

Ordinary citizens were duped by predatory lenders. Ordinary citizens changed the name of French fries when the French wised up and abandoned our "Boyz in the Hood" war. Ordinary citizens supported Shrub and they are likely to support McEvil if they are not given an appropriate education.

This is what we are dealing with folks and I think we should enjoy the "lead" in the polls and savor the moment. However, we need to get to work. Ordinary citizens are buying the lies, idiocy, dismissive, and vindictive smear ads coming from the RNC.

Fortunately, Obama is coming out with counterattack ads which should help. Don't get complacent, people. Sign up to make phone calls, walk your neighborhood, and raise funds to fight. If we don't fight back, the USA will suffer another 4 years of poor judgment with a different, older face.; August 01, 2008 8:16 PM
suzihussein22 said...: jean-lol...as long as I can have a rootbeer dumdum.

Obama has already rebutted this ad. I think it's called the low road. How many celebrity endorsements does McCain have anyway? I'm sure he would include Hagee, Buchannan, etc...anyway.; August 01, 2008 8:21 PM
jean said...: beryl,
I agree.
These people voted for Bush.
TWICE.
That is what installs fear in me.
Positive.
I found another parent who is a Dem in my neighborhood.
We are few where I live.
jean; August 01, 2008 9:07 PM
jean said...: DANG.
Instills fear.
jean; August 01, 2008 9:12 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Here is another ad McCain put out bashing Obama:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPARec32KMI

First time I've seen that one!

.; August 01, 2008 9:18 PM
jean said...: Beryl,
Many people are scared of change.
Especially certain demographics.
Obama's message keeps saying this phrase.
I think, the second thing out of his mouth needs to say "I want to improve your life and your families." With a marketing flare that his campaign management is fantastic at.
Signs saying improve your life etc.
I think he needs to punch this hard.
The polls are not what they should be.
jean; August 01, 2008 9:35 PM
jean said...: suzi,
You can have any flaver you want since you are "KING"LOL.
jean; August 01, 2008 9:37 PM
Beryl said...: I agree. I think the 1K rebate is a good one -- paid by the oil companies who made record profits.

That is the kind of thing we need to hear. People need to know that they are getting screwed -- big time -- but the Repugs. They do not care about the masses.; August 01, 2008 9:42 PM
Karen Anne said...: People are afraid of change, unless things are so bad that any change looks good. The Shrub has accomplished that.; August 01, 2008 9:59 PM
Independent Voter said...: Suzi, I wasn't referring to the "Celeb" ad. I was referring to the new one that McDouchebag put out today...it's called "The One".; August 01, 2008 10:23 PM
suzihussein22 said...: i v dave-Okay. I read about both ads back to back. I let them blur together. I get up earlier this morning to get the tax free school supplies before they got picked through this weekend. I got almost everything my other half and my kids needed. I just looked at the clock and realized I've been up almost 17 hrs., but at least most of the laundry is almost done too for the weekend. It's not the same as studying though, eh? ;); August 01, 2008 10:32 PM
suzihussein22 said...: jean-as lollipop king, I decree some zzzzs. whay say you?; August 01, 2008 11:04 PM
jean said...: suzi,
me toooooooooooooooooooooo.
Have a good night.
Your Highness;)
jean; August 01, 2008 11:20 PM
Independent Voter said...: Jean, that sucks.....17 hours? UGH! Well, I'm going on 15 right now, and I'm trying to finish up one of my online classes tonight so I can help with my brother's final paper (which is due on Tuesday.)

We are almost done with his paper, but I would like to give it as much attention as possible. He's sent me about 1/2 of it, and I'm going to be working on editing it tomorrow.; August 02, 2008 12:39 AM
tmess2 said...: Growing up in the South during the 1970s, there were certain phrases used by my parent's generation that can no longer be said to a national audience.

Yet, if there is one thing that we have learned over the past several elections, it's that Republicans have gotten great at using code words -- euphemisms that convey a clear message to the target group but that don't sound that alarming to the rest of the country.

In light of McCain's attempt to claim that Obama played the race card first, my mind keeps going back to a theme that the Republican talking heads have been using for the past two month's -- the claim that somehow everything Obama does demonstrates that he is arrogant. This message has been raising a question in my mind for the entire time.

That question is the following: "Is arrogant a code word for uppity?"; August 02, 2008 1:03 AM
Beryl said...: I agree, tmess2.

Lots of code words...

"Arrogant"="Uppity"
"exotic"="not all white"

I pray we get pass all of that in my lifetime.

Now they are complaining about Obama being "too fit".

http://tinyurl.com/5hlyew; August 02, 2008 1:16 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Regarding the McCain "The One" ad and the use of the words 'The One'

Excerpt from MSNBC...

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/08/01/1241902.aspx

Citing New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd as an example, Wallace said that it was the media and not the McCain campaign that originally "anointed" Obama "The One."

In fact, First Read found three recent Dowd columns referring to Obama as "The One" -- but the references were attributed to the McCain campaign.

-- "How does he like the McCain camp mocking him as 'The One'?" (New York Times, 7/27/08)

-- "The One, as McCain aides sardonically call Obama, glided through Afghanistan, Iraq and Jordan, girding his messianic loins for the inevitable kvetching he would face in Israel as skeptical Jews 'try to get a better sense of what's in Obama's kishkes.'" (New York Times, 7/23/08)

-- "'I don't know that people in Missouri are going to like seeing tens of thousands of Europeans screaming for The One,' a McCain aide snarked to The Politico." (New York Times, 7/20/08)
_____________________

So the Obama supporters ARE NOT calling Obama 'The One'.
It is the McCain folks!

Also of note:
Originally it was Maria Shriver (Arnold's wife) that used the quote from a Hopi prayer "We are the ones that we've been waiting for." at an Obama rally in California. After that is when Obama used the quote from Maria.

Obama/Sebelius '08; August 02, 2008 1:59 AM
Independent Voter said...: leah, I just thought it was interesting because when I saw the ad, I thought to myself, "self, take out the 'moses' and the 'paid for McDouchebag' and it is a great ad FOR Obama."; August 02, 2008 2:20 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Here is an ad that McCain put out (I don't know when) but no one is talking about it much...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPARec32KMI

McCain is not running a respectful campaign - that's for sure!

See everyone tomorrow ;); August 02, 2008 2:29 AM
apissedant said...: I wanted to point out again that there is no measurable tightening in this race. MSNBC is reporting this morning that Obama and McCain are tied, and that McCain had a great week and there is no difference and it is a really close race blah blah blah. Well in an hour I'm going to go canvas a neighborhood to make sure we win, but anyone with half a brain that doesn't have an ulterior motive knows it isn't a dead heat.

It is entirely possible that McCain will get a boost from this week, but we won't know for several more days, when more polling data comes out. MSNBC is claiming that Obama went from 9 points up to a dead heat in the course of the past week. This is fictitious and retarded. According to realclearpolitics.com, the last time a poll showed a 9 point edge for Obama was 7/13, prior to the foreign trip. Also, the CNN poll done just two days prior shows Obama at 7 points, and this was after the barrage of attacks from McCain.

AGAIN, EVERYONE REMEMBER POLLS ARE USELESS INDIVIDUALLY. If you take a few dozen polls done by different groups and you average them, you'll normally be very close to the true answer, but any individual poll can easily be off by ten points in one direction or the other.

Don't freak out, stay vigilant, and don't sink to their level.

Also, Obama is willing to compromise and give SOME off shore drilling. He is smart enough to know this is useless, but he is willing to give a little in order to take a little. There is nothing wrong with that, compromise is how government works.; August 02, 2008 8:01 AM
jean said...: Sent a e-mail; August 02, 2008 11:38 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Dave good morning you are a funny guy VBG. Jean

Good morning to your highness also lol

you guys are just to funny. Jean

Dave I never claimed that I wasn't a true blue democrat!!.Oh by the way I thought McCain was suppose to be a smart man. I guess brain cells was skip when it got to him.; August 02, 2008 11:46 AM
apissedant said...: I keep hearing the news repeat McCain's statement that the Obama campaign retracted their "racism" statements... yet I have not found any information confirming this supposed retraction. Does anyone have any more information on this? His current statements are completely in line with the original statement, so I don't understand how he could of retracted the original statement. Is this a case of the news not doing their job?; August 02, 2008 12:09 PM
Independent Voter said...: p'd ant - I was thinking the same thing yesterday, but since when did "news" ever begin to do their job correctly. I know the news agencies of yesteryear (meaning up until the telecommunications act of 96 - deregulation of the media) did their job fairly accurately. After than consolidation went nuts and we are where we are today, the media being owned by big business and and the only thing that matters anymore are the profits of the conglomerates. Therefore, they have no desire to do their "real job" which is supposed to be to disseminate truth.; August 02, 2008 12:36 PM
Independent Voter said...: By the way, good morning AJ.; August 02, 2008 12:37 PM
Beryl said...: "His current statements are completely in line with the original statement, so I don't understand how he could of retracted the original statement. Is this a case of the news not doing their job?"

Yep. This is the MSM still favoring McLame. They are distorting everything he says. Months ago Obama said McLame has lost his bearings he got slammed on ageism!

Last week, Obama stated that he doesn't look like those on currency. He is right because Obama is more attractive and younger! Why didn't they make a comment about ageism or attractiveness?

Instead, they say he is talking about his race. They even misquoted him. They claimed he said that he didn't have the same color as those on currency.

Grrrr! I hate lies!

They are constantly distorting Obama's words to paint a negative picture of him:

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/07/30/obama_misquote/index.html

The above misquote is almost as bad as taking this statement:

"I hate when people discriminate against gays!"

and morph it into this:

"I hate gays!"; August 02, 2008 12:41 PM
apissedant said...: beryl and Dave,
Even Rachel Maddow, Keith, and Dan let the statements stand though. I couldn't believe it. I google around, I read his statements, I watch his statements, and I'm just thinking... "what the hell is McCain talking about?"

I expect at least from these three to either show me the statement or clip of him retracting the statement, or to call McCain on this horse shit.

Well McCain says it is over, so should it be over?

NO, because as far as I can tell, HE LIED WHILE SAYING IT WAS OVER. This distortion of reality is too much. I am getting more and more disgruntled with our system and our media every single day. The odd thing was I was actually happy with the Washington Post for the first time in awhile yesterday. Their reports, with the exception of 1 were actually quite fair. That one was only unfair because they talked to 5 conservatives and 2 liberals, and buried the two liberals at the very bottom of the article. The others were fair, properly representing both sides... and even more importantly, stating the TRUTH based on FACTS after allowing the two sides to air their piece.

UGH

Beryl, what happened to your filter?; August 02, 2008 1:11 PM
Beryl said...: I think the filter is working. Stop's messages must be going where they belong -- straight to trash.

I don't fully understand how blogger works because the day I got Stop's rant, nothing showed up on the website. It only went to my email per the subscription.; August 02, 2008 1:20 PM
jean said...: ap,
Good morning.
I agree.
One thing we can say though is that things are not getting better in the polls.
Gotta have it.
I also would like to ask you a favor. I know the term is correct but could you not use the word retarded. It is a personal hang up for me and the term just makes my skin crawl.
Did I tell you I made a new friend and she is a DEM. Not many around here. I am going to ask if she wants to do the phone banks with me.
jean; August 02, 2008 1:22 PM
jean said...: beryl,
When stop shows up use the email on the front page on the mid right side.
Whenever Matt checks his email he does the clean up.
He appreciates the notification.
The original post says no.
jean; August 02, 2008 1:33 PM
tmess2 said...: Yesterday, I had the good fortune to see an e-mail from one the leading Republicans in my county (the recipient had just left it laying out in the open).

There was good news and bad news for us in the e-mail.

The bad news is that some folks who otherwise should be Democrat (the type that PUMA draws from) are going Republican.

The good news is that the Republicans are having problems with their base (which doesn't like McCain). It seems the only issue that they can currently use to keep their base in line is national security. Even then, it is a struggle.; August 02, 2008 2:04 PM
apissedant said...: jean,
My bad, it is a bit of a generation gap. For some reason, my generation likes to call everything we don't like either gay or retarded. I will do my best to find a new and less offensive word. No promises though, I forget sometimes. ;); August 02, 2008 2:23 PM
jean said...: ap,
Just to let you know.
Saying someone is gay is not allowed in my household also.
I have asked my kids "Do you call someone "Straight"?
I really appreciate it.
I do understand completely.
With teenagers I am particularly sensitive to these issues.
jean; August 02, 2008 2:52 PM
apissedant said...: I have many gay friends jean, and they don't mind, in fact most of them do it themselves. It is rather amusing to hear a gay man say, "Oh my Gawd, that's so gay," in a condescending way. :); August 02, 2008 4:01 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: If it is a TIE...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11887.html

.; August 02, 2008 4:08 PM
Richard said...: I teach at a private high school, and we have the same issues with students calling things and people "gay" and "retarded." The thing is, whether intended as a slur or not, using "gay" as an insult implies that being gay is something insulting. For this reason we do not allow it, and I address it anytime I hear it.; August 02, 2008 4:10 PM
Beryl said...: "Retarded" was used and going out of style when I was a kid (70s). It is amazing how slang comes in and out of acceptability. "Gay" wasn't used that way though. LOL! We all wanted to be "gay" (happy) back then.

I agree that those words should not be used to insult people.; August 02, 2008 4:16 PM
jean said...: rich,
You know where I am coming from.
I have gay friends who come over and sometimes say fagget( I am not sure I spelled that correctly)
I told them not in front of the kids. The kids cannot discriminate the term and that is hard to do period with that word.
ap,
We are at different places. You will have these things in not to long LOL.
jean; August 02, 2008 4:22 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: McCain Camp Happy To Inject RACIAL Tension Into Latest Web Ad

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/01/mccain-camp-happy-to-inje_n_116360.html

----
I don't think that McCain will win over the support of Latinos, even with this new ad!

Obama '08; August 02, 2008 4:23 PM
apissedant said...: My generation, and the younger generation behind me... are the most accepting generations in history towards gay. Those that take issue with calling things gay are typically the older generations, above the age of 35. This generation is much less accepting of homosexuality.

I understand how you both come to this conclusion, but that isn't how it works in the younger generation's mind. Again, in my generation, the homosexuals themselves will quite often say, "that's so gay," as an insult, or say, "you're such a fag." We also refer to each other as a million other things in jest, and it rarely is meant or received by other young people as the older people typically receive it.

No age group has a higher acceptance of gay marriage, equal rights, gays serving in the military, and gay adoption than the 18-29 year old age range. Every single poll shows that exact same data, and almost everyone in that age range uses those words you dislike and find demeaning. How do those facts go together?; August 02, 2008 4:27 PM
apissedant said...: By the way, two of my friends referred to me as both old and gay within the last two hours because I said I didn't feel like driving to Va Beach for a party tonight. The funny thing is, you guys don't take issue with the fact that they called me old, regardless of my age, only with the fact that they called me gay. I don't differentiate the two insults, because I don't ACTUALLY look down either either of those American subgroups... but the older generation obviously does...; August 02, 2008 4:31 PM
Beryl said...: Leah,
It is funny because I just sent an email to the MSM on how the Republicans are obsessed with race and age. They are the ones bringing this stuff up:

-------------------------------
Why did you, the mainstream media, not call the Republicans on assuming Obama's comments this week refers to race? On MSNBC's Hardball, the moderator let a guest claim that he said that his color was different from those on our currency! Months ago he commented on the obvious (he is Black) but he never said that this week. Senator Obama only stated that he doesn't look like those on currency. For one thing, Senator Obama looks younger. He also looks more attractive but I do not think Obama was referring to his own good looks.

1. Why do the Republicans assumed race was the difference?
2. Why are they accusing him without asking the Senator for clarification?
3. Why are they constantly assuming the negative?

We know the answer (they are attempting to sway public opinion and do not want to hear Obama's explanation) but the mainstream media has the responsibility to ask them these questions.

Of course the Republicans know that Obama looks younger than those on the currency but they were not going to revisit the incident from his Spring. (They accused Obama for ageism when he said McCain is losing his bearings.) Instead, they now want to say he is "playing the race card". Obama has never called McCain old nor racist but the Republicans as are clearly obsessed with both age and race. You should call them on being the first to bring up these issues.

Beryl
Centennial, CO; August 02, 2008 4:33 PM
Beryl said...: Keith O. discussed this on Friday:

http://www.unionvoice.org/campaign/wal_mart_petition

Please sign the petition and pass it on to Obama groups, friends and family.
-------------------------------
Dear Friend,

Today marks a new low for Wal-Mart. No, not low prices; low and dirty anti-worker tactics. We've known for years that Wal-Mart has violated labor and anti-discrimination laws and ruthlessly fought efforts by its workers to form unions.

And now, according to The Wall Street Journal, Wal-Mart is so intimidated by the very possibility of a unionized workforce that its supervisors have been holding mandatory meetings essentially telling employees to vote against Democrats and Sen. Barack Obama this November.

Wal-Mart is taking this outrageous step because the Democrats and Barack Obama have committed to pass the Employee Free Choice Act to restore workers' freedom to form unions and bargain for fair wages, health care, decent working conditions and a real voice on the job. All of America's workers have the right to freely decide whom to vote for independent of employer pressure and intimidation.
Tell Wal-Mart to stop intimidating workers TODAY!
Wal-Mart's reported actions are just one piece of a large and well-organized effort by corporate America to continue exploiting America's workers by preventing them from forming unions. With our economy struggling and workers' wages stagnant, it is critical that we fight workplace intimidation and other heavy-handed corporate tactics. CEOs and Big Business already have too much influence in our political system and telling their employees whom to vote for is simply unacceptable.
Corporate giants like Wal-Mart have been suppressing workers' wages and passing along health care costs to hardworking taxpayers like you for years. Wal-Mart executives are getting rich, while we're being left behind. They understand what is at stake in this election, and so do we--a real voice at work for:

* Fair pay;
* Health care for all;
* Equal treatment;
* Safe workplaces; and
* A secure retirement.

And Wal-Mart is ready to use its incredible corporate power as America's largest private employer to corrupt the political system to safeguard its profits.
Tell Wal-Mart you reject its unfair and immoral workplace intimidation.
Thanks for your support.
In solidarity,
Working Families e-Activist Network, AFL-CIO; August 02, 2008 4:53 PM
jean said...: ap,
I try very hard to not live in my generation.
Unfortunately gangs, violence and intolerance is on the rise so that my kids cannot wear an NFL jersey to school because a kid driving by may shoot them because of "lack of respect". Skin heads will harm someone who is gay. A white girl dating a black guy is called a "nightrider".
To support not following these terms at home is important.
To compare gay to the term old in TODAYS terms is like comparing a orange to a lizard. Other than organic that is where it stops.
jean; August 02, 2008 5:03 PM
apissedant said...: jean,
Intolerance is not on the rise. The reason we have all these gay marriage amendments that we never had before is because no one 30 years ago ever dreamed that society would allow gays to get married. The young voted overwhelmingly to allow it. Racism has always been there, and is most definitely not on the rise. My father calls himself an independent, though he has not voted for a major Republican candidate in decades... and I remember growing up, he said he would not approve of me coming home with a black girl, and he never dated outside of his race, and neither did my mother. I have, and most of my friends have.

The gang stuff is unrelated, but I will continue with the intolerance.... the fact is that you see a rise of nasty names, nooses, and anti-gay actions because interracial relationships and homosexuality is becoming more and more acceptable and trickling into mainstream society. The minority of people, that are intolerant, cannot stand this and do the terrible things they do.

The hate and intolerance was always there, but now the blacks are living in their neighborhoods, and comfortable dating their sons and daughters, and the gays are openly and proudly coming out and declaring what they are. Those with hate now have to face what they have always despised.

As far as old and gay... in this context, they aren't different at all. They were both friendly jabs intended at goading me to go to the party. My friend called me old for not coming out, and her boyfriend immediately screamed that I was a fag for not coming out. They were used in the exact same context for the exact same purpose. I am neither old nor gay, so neither actually applies. My whole point is that to my generation, there is no difference, we use them interchangeably at times, and they are friendly jabs with no real negative intent or implication. I realize that your generation sees it differently, but so what?; August 02, 2008 5:20 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Mark your calendars...

Upcoming presidential debates:

Sept. 26 in Oxford, MS.

Oct. 7th

Oct. 15th

Oct. 2nd (VP debate); August 02, 2008 5:20 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Monday, August 4th is Senator Obama's 47th birthday.

The crowd at The Urban League today sang Happy Birthday to him.

p.s. Monday is also my puppy dog's birthday - he'll be getting three new toys ;)
And for Obama I'll be sending in an extra donation!; August 02, 2008 5:29 PM
apissedant said...: Historical Opinions on Gay Marriage

Here in Virginia, the author of the gay marriage amendment said that he knew there were already two laws making gay marriage illegal, but he wanted to insure that no future legislators could make it legal.
The intolerant sees the writing on the wall, and that is why you see the increase in some of the intolerant activities. They honestly believe they are defending the bible and the American way of life, and we have them backed up to the 1 yard line.; August 02, 2008 5:32 PM
jean said...: ap,
You missed it.
Teenagers are a very mean sub-group with a lot of hormones and more likely to act on impulse.
Gangs, violence are not on the rise.
When was the last time you were on a Highschool campus?
The prisons in CA are ruled by 7 different gangs of which 2 require life or death membership.
The initiation is the killing of a human being.
Our prisons are at their highest capacity ever.
Most of these individuals start as teenagers or younger, this generation.
Maybe you are looking at the cup half full, I just know what I see.
jean; August 02, 2008 5:32 PM
apissedant said...: jean,
Read the actual reports of why prison population is at the highest level ever. Every single article I read about it said that stricter laws and punishment, such as three strikes and you're out. Also, those in prison still only make up .66666666% of society. That is a very small minority to judge the other 99.33333333% of us, don't you think? Also, criminals have always started young, that isn't new at all.

Again, gangs are irrelevant anyways. A gang is not a measure of intolerance, it is a measure of criminal activity. Yes, gangs are typically intolerant too, but so what? They're a tiny minority. Read the statistics on gay marriage disapproval. We went from 73% against, to 56%. That is a 17% decrease in intolerance. You are talking about an increase from .5% to .6666%, a total increase of .16666%. I feel that pales in comparison to the 17% decrease. What's more, 8% of the people in US prisons are there for being illegal immigrants. Not exactly a hate crime.; August 02, 2008 5:49 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: AP,

What would you (and by extension your age group) consider the ultimate disrespectful phrase if it were to be used against you?

Would you like that phrase used constantly by another generation in your presence?

That is the same as today's youth using the terms 'gay', 'fag', and 'retarded' in the manner they do. It is completely disrespectful to others, shows intolerance, and demeans every person who uses those terms.

I used to be of the same age as you, but most of my generation (at least those I associated with) tried to be a bit more respectful of others by choosing words that weren't discerned as disrespectful by others. We didn't always succeed, but we at least made an effort, and recognized that hurtful words caused disrespect to be shown back. At the point in life that you are in, one of the things my generation wanted was to be shown at least a modicum of respect, especially as we entered the work force, as your generation is right now doing.

The only way you really earn respect is by giving respect. A disrespectful attitude towards others, as evidenced by the using of words that are KNOWN to be perceived as disrespectful by others will only earn disrespect in return, making it just that much more difficult for you to earn the respect that you believe you deserve.

Mike; August 02, 2008 6:13 PM
Beryl said...: Jean/Apiss,

I agree with both of you on certain points.

GANGS:

Jean,
Your comments about HS kids underscores why I do not want to return to public school teaching. I will only teach in a private school or college.

Gangs have been active forever. I love the movie "Gangs of New York". However, the level of destruction has increased due to available weaponry. In my mom's day (West Side Story), kids had knives. Knife use continued through the 80s but my classmates were too high or self-absorbed to fight anyone. Toward the end of my HS time, some kids carried guns. These days, they have automatic weapons and worse. It amazes me how kids can build bombs under their parents' noses.

TOLERANCE:

Apis,
I think it is less that your generation is more tolerant and accepting of diversity than it is adults who changed. In general, young people have always been willing to embrace diversity. We did in my time as did the "hippies" just before me. Something happens to the youth when they become adults. Adults are more tolerant because of our workplace (diversity is a business imperative) and as you mentioned, our neighborhoods.

I also agree that the world has become more polarized. As many have become more accepting, those who will NEVER tolerate diversity are nastier.

WORDS:

Jean,
I applaud you for setting boundaries. I don't use and will not allow the use of words which may be innocuous these days but have hateful origins. I think it is important for kids to be taught WHY some words are unacceptable.

Apis,
Your generation comfortably use words that many of us find unacceptable including the "n" word. It is interesting hearing white kids calling each other "n"s. I realize that you folks mean no ill when you use those words. I don't think your generation (not you in particular) understand the historical importance of some words,however.; August 02, 2008 6:20 PM
jean said...: Beryl,
I am surrounded by teenagers 7 days a week and most of them are not mine.
I am fine with it but I am very strict about the rules. If they don't like it they can leave and sometimes I send them on their way.
I still have a full house.
I have coined a phrase that perhaps I should not have.
"Pull your head out of your butt and stop acting like a jerk."
Honestly, I think they are always here because I cook and always have food LOL.
I really believe if you call a kid on the carpet they will back down and actually think; of course I always have food.
Kids are cool.
They just need to pull their head out of their butt and stop acting like a jerk;)
jean; August 02, 2008 6:51 PM
apissedant said...: beryl,
Completely agree on the N word, and I don't use it in any context ever unless I am directly quoting someone else... and I'm always quoting them in a negative manner. Although even this got me in, "trouble" with a black coworker once. He was going to a site where the a redneck racist in Maryland, and I wanted to warn him to watch his ass. I quoted some of the more ridiculous things the man said in order to tell the guy what he was in for. He decided against heeding my warning, and instead focused on the fact that I used the n word when quoting someone. A week later the site manager had lodged several complaints against him for stealing, slacking off, and several other things.
The n word does have a nasty and long history, and I don't think it should or can ever be taken lightly.

Gay, fag, and these words don't have these long and terrible histories, and have only had "terrible" meanings in recent history.

As far as respect... there are billions of ways we disrespect each other and ourselves in this society, and I honestly thing the word fag would have to be on the shallow end of this pool... if in it at all. Assuming someone is a troll and insulting them for asking a simple question is disrespectful. Saying you'll go somewhere at some time, and either not going or showing up "fashionably" late is disrespectful. Lying is disrespectful. Taking advantage of the weak, beating up the "nerds" or "weird kids" is disrespectful. Our school systems (teachers and administrators) ignoring the fact that kids are being picked on is terribly disrespectful. Watching a woman get raped, or a person beat up in the middle of the street and not interfering is disrespectful. This complaint by several here is the same as the neocons blaming violence on video games and Janet Jackson's nipple. How about we take care of the actual problems instead of assuming that innocent phrases and stupid jokes are the problem?

As far as the young being more liberal, you are correct beryl, the young are more liberal, but we won't be as conservative as your generation is when we're your age. The statistics are clear, for a very long period of time, each generation has been more liberal than the generation before it. As each generation gets older, they appear conservative and old fashioned compared to the new young generation. You aren't necessarily much more conservative than you were 20 years ago, and you are definitely not as conservative as the people your age were 20 years ago. The definition of conservative and liberal has just been continually changing.

Dave and I have joked around on here many times, and often they were gay jokes back and forth. This was not meant in either direction in a disrespectful manner, in fact quite the opposite. Those that I befriend and respect, I am comfortable joking with, and vise versa. I guarantee there are jokes you'll make with your very close friends that you would never make in a group of strangers, does that mean you're being disrespectful to them?

There is a way to say gay and fag with a negative connotation, and it is all dependent on tone and context. There is a way to say old with in a disrespectful manner, as well as child, girl, boy, Republican, Democrat, liberal, and almost every other word in the dictionary. For this matter, when my gay friends call me breeder, are they disrespecting me, or is it a harmless joke between friends?

Here is where I think that levity thing jean talks about is so important. :)

Every generation since history started being recorded has complained about the degeneration of society, and the lack of respect and morals of the younger generation.... yet I would say my generation is much, much more moral and respectful than those from the 19th century. Your parents that you guys were worse then them, and their parents thought the same of them. The roaring 20's, the swinging 50's, the hippies of the 60's and 70's.

Just because values change doesn't always mean they get worse. The time line of history actually argues the difference. Look at it macroscopically instead of microscopically and the picture is much more clear, and much more positive.; August 02, 2008 6:59 PM
Richard said...: I find it interesting, apissedant, that you immediately made a generational conflict out of what is a simple difference of opinion about appropriate usage of language. Not only that, but I think you have made assumptions about my age and what generation I belong to that are by no means warranted.

What it comes down to, AP, is that I believe that words have power and that using words with sexual, racial, or ethnic connotations as insults perpetuates the stereotypes and negative attitudes we both agree we want to eliminate.

We apparently disagree on this point, but dismissing my beliefs "older generation" is somewhat offensive. Moreover, it shows the weakness of your arguments if you make ad hominem attacks rather than sticking to the merits of your argument.; August 02, 2008 7:36 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: AP,

The words 'gay' and 'fag' used in a disrespectful way may not be centuries old, but they are used by bigots every day.

If I hear anyone say either of those words and I'm in a position where I can say something, I do.

I, and almost all homosexuals, consider those words to be hate words, similar to the 'n' word.

I hope I am not in your vicinity at any time you 'innocently' use the words 'gay' or 'fag', as I consider them as fighting words, and on the same level as the 'n' word.

If I were in a position to hire anyone for a job, there would be a probationary period after that hiring. Part of the requirement for that probation would be to show respect to bosses and co-workers (and to the public, if applicable) in manner and speech. The first time I heard anyone say 'gay' or 'fag' in almost any context would be considered a fireable offense for me.

Those words may seem innocent to you, but when you've been assaulted, punched, hit with blunt force while the assailants are yelling 'fag' or 'gay' (and I and friends have experienced all of those), you know that the words are used as derogatory terms by many, and thus need to be cleansed from the vocabulary.

And if you consider that a mini-baseball bat is not an effective weapon, I have a scar on my lip from being hit by one. It took about a dozen stitched to close the wound. The blow also loosened a couple of teeth. All because someone saw me walk out of a particular bar one night, then attacked me about a week later, because I was 'gay'.

Granted, this happened about 20 years ago, but the use of 'gay' and 'fag' in casual speech by those under 30 has greatly increased since then. Because of that, the acceptance of those words has been increased by bigots, who use the excuse 'everyone uses it.' Just as my step-father used the 'n' word - 'Everyone else uses it, so no problem.' He also said that if his arthritis didn't prevent him, he would dance a jig when he heard that Martin Luther King had been assassinated.

Words have meaning and power. And when a derogatory word becomes part of the daily lexicon, it can and does encourage the haters and bigots.

Mike; August 02, 2008 7:36 PM
jean said...: Ap,
Personal conversations between individuals have different rankings.
I have things I would say to one friend but never the other. We are still close.
Things do evolve generation by generation. Directly from parents or indirectly when they pay for school or encourage you to go to school etc.
An example is when the person makes a choice that the parents do not agree with and they DON'T have a cow or get over it.
While many things are better some things are getting bad.
Part of this is the gap between the have and have nots is getting wider.
My husband does not like rap, his parents did not like his music.
I remind him all the time (that is fun;)
You make gangs seem insignificant and it is not.
I feel things have gotten so specific in the use of language that people are looking to give repercussions at any cost.
General respect solves this and is not a big thing to request.
That is what the education system is doing.
Private conversations are different.
Not everyone can talk to Indy like you do.
jean; August 02, 2008 7:40 PM
Richard said...: Mike, thank you for saying what I would have liked to have said had emotion not gotten the better of me.; August 02, 2008 8:21 PM
Beryl said...: "Every generation since history started being recorded has complained about the degeneration of society, and the lack of respect and morals of the younger generation.... yet I would say my generation is much, much more moral and respectful than those from the 19th century. Your parents that you guys were worse then them, and their parents thought the same of them. The roaring 20's, the swinging 50's, the hippies of the 60's and 70's."

This is where we don't agree. I don't think it is that simple.

The world is polarizing and each side is becoming more intensified. On the one side, civil rights is more widely accepted. It is unacceptable in the USA for wives to be beaten into submission by their husbands. Husbands are not allowed to rape their wives. Another Matthew Shepard incident would be met with more outrage than before. It is not OK to lynch and/or kill blacks and gays for sport. Respectable people do not use slurs even in privacy. (This is why McCain's comments regarding women and Vietnamese taint his candidacy.) These examples illustrate how each generation has become "more moral and respectful".

On the other side, I've seen some of what Jean has mentioned. The depth of wickedness has equally increased. Young people have substituted automatic weapons for fist-fights. Right here in Colorado, kids killed many classmates and nearly killed hundreds. More children are caught planning and executing hits on their teachers and parents. Sex outside of the bonds of marriage is no longer hidden. Out of wedlock pregnancies (e.g. Britney's little sister) are considered "cool". Children are far less respectful to their elders. How often to you hear children addressing their elders (parents, aunts/uncles, grandparents) as "Ma'am and Sir"? These examples illustrate how the current generation has become less moral (IMO) and respectful.; August 02, 2008 8:26 PM
apissedant said...: rich,
I never specifically talked about your age or generation. I talked about beryl, Mike, and jean, all of which I have a general idea of the age of due to many conversations. As to making an argument of it... I'll admit my part, but an argument takes at least two people. The difference of opinion was over using a word, and I promised to attempt to not use that word. Much like jean says, you speak in different ways with different people. I have some friends I don't swear around, and I have others I swear around constantly. It is just about finding a comfort zone with individual conversations.

While promising to make a serious attempt to not use this word, I also decided to offer the generational difference in how that word as well as two others, are looked at, and how to us, it is not derogatory or disrespectful. If you do not like the conversation, feel free to not participate.

As to an ad hominen attack, and the weakness of my argument... you might want to consult a dictionary or a logic book on what that means. Had I said you like grilled cheese, and therefore your opinion is worthless, well that would have been an irrelevant ad hominen attack, because I would have been attacking you based on an irrelevant fact that has nothing to do with the argument at hand.

I did not do this, nor did I attack anyone individually or as a group. I simply countered arguments with facts about those specific arguments. Jean said that society is becoming more intolerant, which is historically inaccurate, so I refuted this statement.

Mike said I, and any others using these words was being disrespectful. I gave a counterargument of things in society that I find disrespectful, and explained why I don't find these words disrespectful as used in the context above.

Both attempted to explain the deterioration of society based on the use of these words, and I explained that this is an argument the older generation has been making for generations, despite the fact that society has become more accepting over these same generations.

All except for you agreed that these terms are used casually in my generation, and not in the generation that preceded it, so this is not only relevant, but the entire basis of both their and my argument, so how I could leave this out you'll have to explain. Even you admit that this is a "problem" with the students you teach, who are obviously in a younger generation than you.; August 02, 2008 8:31 PM
apissedant said...: beryl,
Are you telling me your parents didn't complain about your generation's lax morals, loud obnoxious music, and complete lack of respect?

I know parents today are complaining about it with their kids' generation. I know my parents and their peers complained about it with my generation. I know my parents' parents did the same with their generation. I cannot speak too much further back than that without the use of a history book, because my great grandparents died young and my grandparents effectively raised themselves. A simple google search can easily go back to the twenties, returning many websites that say things along these lines: "Lustbader uses the chaotic Roaring '20s as a backdrop for her characters. ... living and working in an era of easy money and loose morals."

Like you said, lynching isn't acceptable, gay bashing isn't acceptable, locking all the Japanese in prison camps isn't acceptable, killing the Jews isn't acceptable... You speak anecdotally about a few students going crazy and killing classmates, but overall, murders are down, despite, as you say, access to weapons being up. In other industrialized nations, where access to these weapons is much more restricted and their is not a starving lower class, murder and crime rates are far below ours. This is despite the FACT that by these measures, they are even less moral and more disrespectful.

This of course brings me to Holland, since my wife is Dutch so I have more knowledge of the Netherlands than other nations. The fact is drugs are legal, sex is completely unrestricted, derogatory insults are exchanged between friends quite casually, and yet crime and murder rates are amazingly low. At 5 o'clock in the afternoon, you can hear all the swear words and all the nudity you want on basic network television. They laugh at our "silly" rating systems and our "prudish" nature. Yet they're a more peaceful people!

God knows I'm not advocating another sexual revolution, or the loosening of sexual morals, as I have argued against them at length here. I am just stating that trying to connect all of these different things is absurd, because the statistics don't line up with the assumptions.

All of these school shootings were by kids that were very screwed up, and none were actually receiving mental health. Their parents weren't paying attention, because if they had two of them in the house, they were typically both working 50 hours a week. Almost all of them were picked on their entire school lives, and the teachers almost always turned a blind eye and let the other students torment them. We have been going through a 30 year process of deinstitutionalization, leaving few if any places for the crazies to be placed except for prison. Can't lock them in prison until they actually commit a crime, so that doesn't work out well until after they shoot up the school. Add to this the loosest gun laws and most deadly guns our country has ever seen, and a clickish society that ignores those outside of their click, allowing kids to essentially disappear in the woodwork, and not be noticed by anyone. Everyone is constantly saying it isn't their problem, and it isn't their job, and passing the buck. That would be the great expanse of the bureaucracy of the ever expanding corporate world.

As Mike said with an earlier argument, the problem is way too complex to answer in under a page. There are so many factors, yet everyone arguing against me is trying to break it down to a two sentence answer. The "answer" again does not agree with the facts. It is oversimplification of a serious problem, scapegoating.; August 02, 2008 8:51 PM
Richard said...: "My generation, and the younger generation behind me... are the most accepting generations in history towards gay. Those that take issue with calling things gay are typically the older generations, above the age of 35. This generation is much less accepting of homosexuality."

I realize that several exchanges took place between your post and my response, but it was to that post which I was responding. In this paragraph you label those who disagree with you as "older generations," declare that they are intolerant, and then dismiss their arguments based on your generation's supposed enlightenment. This does not respond to the merits of our arguments, but appeals to a characteristic of your opponents to discredit their opinion. This is the essence of the argumentum ad hominem.

Furthermore, the condescension of your response (in which you again attack me pesonally as needing to "consult a dictionary or a logic book") is not appreciated.; August 02, 2008 9:05 PM
jean said...: beryl,
Kids are not bad and I do not think that they have changed from the 50's etc.
Women have changed drastically in the last 100yrs. Progression as a society is huge and a lot of work.
We as a society have changed a lot.
In the fiftys there were a lot of rules for kids and it was strict.
Kids left in the mornig and came home at dinner time and if they screwed up you got beat. You were told you shouldn't do something and if you were caught, major bust.

Kids now are watched and have much more information. Yes many times they are not watched.
They are told freedom for everything and if you make the wrong decision you really do not get in much trouble.
I think we say spread your wings too soon.
Sorry kids, you don't pay for it and you don't own anything.
Privileges are earned not autimatically givin.
Teenagers do not think like adults,
physically their brains are totally different. That is sometimes why I have to walk away for private time;)
Because of more information by massive media in all forms things have changed and the adults have not.
I am responsible for my kids.
More parents need to pay attention instead of letting them loose for the day and expecting a happy ending.
Hormones, just think about it,
a woman can plead that she had a hormonal imbalance after the birth of a child and commit murder.
Teenagers have these raging hormones all the time, it sucks.
I give no excuse but parents need to step up.
jean; August 02, 2008 9:06 PM
apissedant said...: Mike,
It is neat for you to speak for the entire gay community, especially when a large portion of the gay community disagrees with you:
http://archive.salon.com/people/feature/2000/09/14/gaygaygay/index.html

I have been kicked and punched in the face while being called gay, which I have actually mentioned here in this thread before. Point? I've been punched in the face while being called a nerd too, but I use nerd lightly too. Actually, I got kicked in the face while being called a fag just 3 months ago, much more recently than 20 years. I hangout with quite a few gays, and some of the more homophobic assume if you hangout with them, you must be one of them. My wife and I used to go to the gay bar with our gay friends all the time, and "that's so gay," "fag," and "queen" were all thrown around and laughed off on a regular basis. I don't know what gays you're hanging out with, but I doubt they're under 30 if they all hate the word gay.

If I were able to hire people, I would have a probation period, and people that were quick to shout "prejudiced," "bigotry," "hate speech," or "I don't like swear words," would be let go, because it makes for an uncomfortable and tense work space. People shouldn't be running around swearing and telling racist jokes, but an occasional slip with retarded, gay, or a swear word should not be met with an iron fist. Open conversations where people aren't afraid are typically more productive and fun in my experience.; August 02, 2008 9:07 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Rocky Mountain Poll: McCain Slips in Home State

A new Rocky Mountain Poll in Arizona's most populous county, finds Sen. John McCain's lead "which was a comfortable 15 to 17 points for most of last and this year, has shrunk significantly."

McCain's lead is now just five points, 43% to 38%.

Key findings: "McCain's narrowing lead traces not to any sudden up-swelling in support for Obama, whose support has hovered around 38 percent for the past year and remains at that level today. Rather, it traces to a decline in support of McCain, especially among men, registered Independents and Latinos. Simultaneously, the proportion of voters who are uncommitted rose to 16 percent from only nine this May and Ralph Nader drew a small but important three percent, mostly from McCain."

August 1, 2008

.; August 02, 2008 9:08 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: I betcha this Senator is now on McCain's $hit list!

McCain-Backing GOP Senator: Obama Did Not Play the Race Card

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/08/mccain-backing.html

.; August 02, 2008 9:11 PM
apissedant said...: You can tell the difference between a homophobic prick saying it and an accepting person saying it. Last time I heard a homophobic prick say it, I got in a fight with him, so I understand where you're coming from. That is where context and tone of voice come into play.

The homophobes don't need permission or a reason to use those words or go to the street and gay bash. If you think by refusing to use any word that could possibly be taken as derogatory will magically correct those pricks, or prevent them from going off, you're dreaming. Racist whites were using the "n" word LOOONNNG before rappers started using it in songs, so how does that work? Every time an old word is associated with something negative, should we then purge it from our dictionary? That is what you propose. Since some people use it in a hateful fashion, we should all refrain from using it to prevent encouraging their use of it.; August 02, 2008 9:16 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: AP,

Is 1969 part of your generation? Since you are in your mid- to late-20s, I dare say not. It IS part of my generation.

1969 is the year of the Stonewall riots in New York City, and is considered the seminal event in for the Gay Rights Movement.

The reason the word 'gay' was used by male homosexuals was because the word 'gay' was the 'n' word of the day for derogatorily describing the male homosexual. The term, as used by male homosexuals, thus changed meaning, but the derogatory meaning did not for many. But prior to the use of 'gay' as a derogatory term, other terms were used.

I can say with authority that 1895 was well before my generation, and before my parents and their parents). Yet that is the year that Oscar Wilde was tried, convicted and sentenced to hard labor for "gross indecency" with other men. In other words, he was 'gay'.

The use of the term 'gay' has changed for some, but the meaning is still the same in most people's minds - it is a derogatory term. Therefore, when one uses the terms 'gay' or 'fag' in an indiscriminate manner, it is considered extremely offense by most homosexuals, no matter the gender. 'Gross indecency' is a legal term, but it also was a colloquial term with the same meaning. The term 'gross indecency' used against Oscar Wilde had the same meaning as 'gay' or 'fag' does in colloquial speech.

Thus for you to say that a recent change in usage carries less meaning than when a derogatory word has been used for generations is hogwash.

Consider the use of the word 'kraut'. It is a derogatory term when describing a person of German descent. It is not considered derogatory when used as a suffix, such as 'sauerkraut' (a type of fermented cabbage) or Pfeifenkraut (now outmoded), the German description of loose tobacco, especially pipe tobacco.

A lot depends on context whether a word is considered obscene to some or many. When the word is used indiscriminately in no context, then it becomes a derogatory term, and should be excised from that person's vocabulary. And respectful people should encourage others, especially their friends and co-workers, to excise the indiscriminate use of that word or term from their vocabulary.

Mike; August 02, 2008 9:18 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Economic models predict clear Obama win in November

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0138628820080801; August 02, 2008 9:23 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; August 02, 2008 9:28 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA '08

Welcome to all the newcomers to the thread!

This is the best place on the web to discuss the Democratic Convention, the 2008 Election, and everything regarding Obama and McCain!

Be sure to check out the VP Edition link at the top left of the page - the best place in town for vice-president discussions.

OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA '08; August 02, 2008 9:29 PM
apissedant said...: rich,
They said I was intolerant. I responded that me placing the insult "old" in the same light as "gay" was actually the definition of tolerance. I showed no difference between them. There is a subgroup in this nation known as old people. There is a subgroup in this nation known as gay people. I was called one subgroup as an insult, and that is completely ok. I was called the other subgroup as an insult, and that is terrible and wrong. That IS intolerance. You'll tolerate insulting one subgroup, but not the other.

As to personal insults, you reap what you sew. Again, as stated earlier, ad hominens are relevant, irrelevant ad hominens are not relevant. Also, again, I was responding SPECIFICALLY to Jean's response about the growing intolerance in our society, which of course points to younger generations being less tolerant. I COUNTER this with the FACT that we are clearly MORE tolerant. This is completely relevant and completely on point.

She said society is growing more intolerant.
I proved using statistics and facts that society is actually more tolerant.

This in no way dismisses the entire argument against using the words, just the that specific reasoning for the argument.

There is a very specific reason for me telling you to consult a dictionary and/or encyclopedia.
also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim

Since I did not attack Jean personally, instead attacking her argument that society is growing more intolerant by showing clear statistics that society has grown more tolerant, it was not an ad hominen.
If you do not use the proper definition of a word, then I'm going to tell you to go look up the word. Feel free to do the same to me, I believe I used either than or then improperly in a previous post. It was a typo, but you can nitpick me if you so choose.

When you incorrectly claim I did not discuss the merits of the argument, when the argument was that society has grown more intolerant, and society has in fact grown more tolerant, then I will in turn correct you. If you find that offensive, don't be wrong. Go back and read jean's post if you must, but I can assure you that that was in fact her argument, so my counterargument was completely appropriate and on point.

I am not intending to personally attack anyone, but I will most definitely defend myself if I am told that I am rude and disrespectful and unworthy of employment. Especially if the person leveling this attack has proven himself to be disrespectful and insulting on multiple occasions (Mike).; August 02, 2008 9:33 PM
apissedant said...: And leah, I apologize for the off topic and not nice discussion. It was not on purpose I swear. I definitely mean no disrespect and mean to take nothing from this thread. If there were another for, "random bickering" I would gladly take the conversation there. Not that I'm taking all responsibility, but that which is mine I shall take.; August 02, 2008 9:35 PM
jean said...: ap & mike in md,
STOP.
#1 talking about someones sex life of any sort is rude.
PRIVATE
That is the foundation of why anyone gives a crap whether they are gay or not is beyond me.
ap,
Simple, you do not know how mike feels because you have not been there.
Your generation is actually called the easy generation because the break throughs happened before you.
Give some room.
mike in md,
You need to give him room.
You know better.
In twenty years ap, this will really be fun.
Cocktail hour and the son is cooking and I want to keep my house from burning:)
We agree to disagree.
jean; August 02, 2008 9:37 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: AP said...
Since some people use it in a hateful fashion, we should all refrain from using it to prevent encouraging their use of it.

The use of certain words in an indiscriminate manner gives permission for the bigots to use the word, and they can hide behind the usage by saying 'Everyone else uses it.' It legitimizes the use of the word by bigots, and makes it much more difficult to ascertain their intent of use.

That is why I believe it is necessary to STOP the indiscriminate useage of the word 'gay' and 'fag'.

And your stating that you got beat up three months ago by someone(s) (I can presume that they were probably of, or close to, your own generation) who considered that you are/were a homosexual because you hang out with many who are homosexual discredits to a large extent your positing that your generation is much less discriminatory. Your generation's indiscriminate use of the word 'gay' helped legitimize the bigots use of the word in a discriminatory manner, and thus you received the result of the 'legitimization' of that word in a discriminatory manner by a bigot.

Mike; August 02, 2008 9:37 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: As we get closer and closer to the election more and more new people will be visiting this site and this 'open thread'.

In my opinion we should be posting comments that have 'something' to do with the election, candidates, convention, etc.

As I have said in the past that for the folks that want to have long 'off topic' conversations there is always the option of posting a yahoo.com or hotmail.com email in your profile and going one-on-one.

I just think that we should keep this thread a bit more on topic and use it for what the folks at DCW intended it for.

That is just my two-cents worth.

Obama '08 ;); August 02, 2008 9:45 PM
suzihussein22 said...: jean-I'm sorry to hear you have to watch out for skin heads. You should have seen me blow my top when I found out my husband's stepdad said monkey music around my kids. We made him leave the house when he said Jews instead of juice. Tell me about boundaries. I've always told my kids to respect themselves if they ever want anybody else to like them. I don't have to remind them of manners in public either. The line in the sand is pretty clear with us. I promise I haven't beat them much. ;); August 02, 2008 9:50 PM
apissedant said...: Mike,
The usage of the word "gay" changed mid 20th century and was adopted from the British argot (code language) Polari. The word "gay" used in context to connote "homosexual" allowed for extensive double entendre and innuendo. This practice continued even as late as the 1970s; in a television advertising campaign for the Bic Banana ink crayon, Charles Nelson Reilly sings, "the colors are so bright and gay!" The word "gay" here does double duty, referring both to the brightness of the ink, and as an obvious insider commentary on Reilly himself.

Gradually, by the 1990s, "gay" became rarely used for its older meanings, and if it was so used, seemed either dubiously innocent or charmingly antiquated.

The word started to acquire sexual connotations in the late 17th century, being used with meaning "addicted to pleasures and dissipations". This was by extension from the primary meaning of "carefree": implying "uninhibited by moral constraints". By the late nineteenth century the term "gay life" was a well-established euphemism for prostitution and other forms of extramarital sexual behavior that were perceived as immoral.

The use of gay to mean "homosexual" was in origin merely an extension of the word's sexualised connotation of "carefree and uninhibited", which implied a willingness to disregard conventional or respectable sexual mores. Such usage is documented as early as the 1920s. It was initially more commonly used to imply heterosexually unconstrained lifestyles, as for example in the once-common phrase "gay Lothario",

"The word ‘gay’, in addition to being used to mean ‘homosexual’ or ‘carefree’, was often now used to mean ‘lame’ or ‘rubbish’. This is a widespread current usage of the word amongst young people... The word 'gay' ... need not be offensive... or homophobic [...] The governors said, however, that Moyles was simply keeping up with developments in English usage. [...] The committee... was "familiar with hearing this word in this context." The governors believed that in describing a ring tone as 'gay', the DJ was conveying that he thought it was 'rubbish', rather than 'homosexual'. [...] The panel acknowledged however that this use... in a derogatory sense... could cause offence in some listeners, and counselled caution on its use."

Among younger generations, the word 'gay' is sometimes used in non-sexual contexts, to mean 'rubbish' or 'stupid'.[1] Some view this as homophobic, though others cite it as an example of the evolution of living language, pointing out that some who use it do not intend it to have any relation to the meaning of the word as homosexual.

Hey look! There are articles all over the internet that say my entire argument for me, proving my point that A) it is generational and B) it is up for debate if it is homophobic, even in the gay community.

You can have whatever opinions you want, but facts are facts. I don't know what gays you're associating with, but every homosexual I know under the age of 35 uses it in the both contexts.

As to the random quote about a gay man being prosecuted... well fine...
During the American Revolutionary War, the armed forces treated sodomy (then broadly defined as oral or anal sexual conduct) as grounds for being dishonorably discharged. The first such recorded discharge was in 1778, when Lieutenant Gotthold Frederick Enslin was (with the approval of General George Washington[citation needed]) dishonorably discharged following a conviction of homosexual sodomy and perjury.
There they just called it sodomy. That is a pointless clip, but so was yours, so I thought I would respond in kind.

The "n" word has always meant the same thing. It has always been meant the derogatory version of a black man. Gay has had MULTIPLE MEANINGS THROUGHOUT HISTORY. The homosexual version is new. The version meaning lame is even newer. You have decided that the homosexual version is the only one that can be used now. I find it offensive that you have decided you can claim words for your own, despite the fact that they have many other meanings.; August 02, 2008 9:52 PM
apissedant said...: A society that is so oversensitive that everything is perceived as an insult or offensive is childish. When people are purposely bigoted and offensive, they should be punished. There is only one meaning of the "n" word, and it is offensive, as well as the other racial slurs, and the "c" word used by John McCain. Those words that have multiple meanings are not offensive unless used in an offensive manner.

I will remind people that people use "arab" in an offensive manner, or "muslim," or "asian." If you put it in the right context with the right tone of voice, nearly every word can be offensive. Even telling someone to look in a dictionary.; August 02, 2008 9:57 PM
Richard said...: I've been thinking quite a bit about VP choices lately, and I am not sure that any of those on the short list is Obama's best choice. There have been endless articles discussing the weaknesses of each, so I need not rehash the issues here. On the other hand, I have yet to hear any negatives associated with Bill Richardson. Can anyone come up with one?; August 02, 2008 10:08 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Anybody in the mood for some more satire(levity)-

http://www.nbc.com/The_Tonight_Show_with_Jay_Leno/video/#mea=281536

I couldn't connect with the thread before I left for the rest of my school tax free clothes shopping with my son. Anyway, nbc seems to have found some good impersonators.; August 02, 2008 10:09 PM
apissedant said...: jean,
I gotta tell you, the constant, "you don't understand," and "you don't know where he/I/they're coming from argument" is played out. Your generation was known as the easy generation. Same argument as before. How many old movies are there where an old guy explains that he had to walk 20 mils to school everyday, uphill both ways?

In Mike's generation, someone with just a high school degree could get a job at a factory and easily earn the equivalent of 70k a year. The Washington Post just published an article today talking about students graduating with a Master's degree and working at retail stores for 15k a year. "Easy" can be measured in many ways. Personal experience is not always required for understanding, and if it were, we would be in a lot of trouble. If the only way to learn and understand something was to go through it personally, we couldn't get much done.

My whole point was just to point out that the meaning, when used in my generation, when used as stated, is not meant or received in an offensive manner at all. This fact is not the reason for the moral decline of our society, and the idea that society is declining morally is in great contention anyways.

You are all stating that your way is right, and all other ways are wrong. I'm stating that our ways our different, and it can be argued just as easily that you way is wrong. You all attempt to preach the need for understanding and acceptance, but refuse to accept any of my generations' ideas, beliefs, or actions.

Maybe the problem isn't that I don't understand where he is coming from, but that he, and you, refuse to understand where I am coming from.

All of you are asserting that my generation and I myself am more disrespectful than you guys are, that I have it easier than you guys did, that I can't possibly understand where you guys are coming from because I didn't live then, or I'm not female, or black, or gay. It couldn't possibly be that you're wrong, it must be that I just don't understand. That is offensive and demeaning. Always coming back to the ageism, that since you're older you must understand and know and understand more.

Then when I dispute these ideas, my statements are viewed as offensive, or bigoted, or impolite, and none of you ever realize the declaring me as having it easier, or understanding less, or being rude, or being less moral just because I disagree with you or because I'm younger, is in itself both bigoted and offensive.

Mine was just a defense, yours was the offense.; August 02, 2008 10:10 PM
suzihussein22 said...: rich-Do you think people still think of Richardson as a Judas?; August 02, 2008 10:11 PM
apissedant said...: Will and Grace used that so gay, and the article I posted earlier was written by someone engrossed in the homosexual community that loved using it. She isn't actually gay apparently, though she had a two year stint where she tried it out. Just Google and you can see tons of arguments of whether it is offensive or not, and there is a clear divide between younger and older people. The older people are typically offended, and the younger people typically think it is silly that they're so offended. JUST GOOGLE; August 02, 2008 10:13 PM
suzihussein22 said...: issue-energy-

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/AheadoftheCurve/story?id=5498564&page=1

This is an alternative to drilling that McCain probably doesn't want anybody to know about.; August 02, 2008 10:26 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: suzihussein22-

Pretty good! And speaking of impersonators - there are at least three different ones that are pretty good that have videos on YouTube.com -- one of them is the one from Saturday Night Live but I can't remember the names of the others at the moment.
But anyone interested can do a search for 'Obama impersonator' on the YouTube.com site.
.; August 02, 2008 10:27 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Here's the CNN Jeannie Moos video regarding the Faux Obama's ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlhWmCTOWOU

The Jay Leno Obama guy is on there too.

.; August 02, 2008 10:32 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Here's some interesting info, imo, but not a big surprise from an abc blog.-

McCain promoted Rick Davis, a longtime friend and protege of Karl Rove, to run his campaign. In 2004, Davis authored an article for the Boston Globe (available online still 3/21/04 is the date) entitled "Anatomy of a Smear Campaign," in which he said, among other things: "The reason the blackest of the dark arts is likely to continue is simple: it works," and further, "It's not necessary for a smear to be true to be effective."; August 02, 2008 10:33 PM
apissedant said...: soft,
Thanks for the article. That should be promising in 4 or 5 years. I don't know if it will work for automobiles, but it could at least charge batteries or help power a home or business.; August 02, 2008 10:38 PM
jean said...: ap,
You did go to the extreme and are very passionate about it.
Like I never do that LMAO.
When things are personal at a high level I just ask that you give it some thought why.
I am not being rude by saying you do not know till you have been there.
There is no way to describe it and many times that is if you are older and have experienced it.
Many times you do not have to be older and unfortunatly you were younger.
It is not meant to be rude.
jean; August 02, 2008 10:42 PM
suzihussein22 said...: leah-LOL! The reporter that did that segment didn't sound too happy doing that piece. Especially how she ended with yes they can.; August 02, 2008 10:43 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: I think what will really work 'against' McCain in this election is that is he is OLD, out of touch, negative, can't remember what he says from one day to the next, and it is obvious that he doesn't have respect for women, the media, or his opponent --- and that is even before getting to he issues.

I am sooo ready for the debates to begin and for McCain to lose his temper!

Obama/Sebelius '08; August 02, 2008 10:46 PM
Beryl said...: "I betcha this Senator is now on McCain's $hit list!"

LOL! You are so right and so is Sen. Mel Martinez! Obama never played the race card -- McCain did. I hope his comment help bring in the Florida Latino vote.

Also, I like this blogger's comment:

Posted by: Desdemondo | Aug 2, 2008 8:12:13 PM

"At first I thought Obama's comment how he looked different than all those presidents on the dollar bills was meant to accentuate racial differences. Then I found out one of McCain's ads actually does Photoshop a rather goofy-looking Obama onto a 100 dollar bill. Obama was responding to an attack that had already occurred, not making something else. Since the McCain camp had to know about the ad thye produced (or are they that incompetent? Perhaps), then their claim that Obama played the race card is a patently false, and itself a playing of that card. I voted for McCain in the 2000 primaries. In 2008? Fogetaboutit."

I didn't know this!; August 02, 2008 10:52 PM
Independent Voter said...: p'd ant - NO I'm not going to chew you out.

First, I have to agree with jean when she made the following statement: Your generation is actually called the easy generation because the break throughs happened before you.

Although we still struggle to obtain equal rights compared to our heterosexual counterparts. Clearly, as ANY minority (and women in this case make up the majority of American) still struggle for equality. Many of us don't understand the REAL struggles that MinM dealt with. His generation truly paved the way for my generation. Yes, I have had my share of discrimination, but not nearly to the extent as his generation. And for me, I thank those that helped move our rights forward and is time for my and your generation to continue pushing forward.

I think what some people fail to understand is that people within those minority groups have taken back the words that have been used in a derogatory manner. Meaning that many African-Americans have taken back the "n" word as a term of empowerment. And many of us took the words fag and gay as terms of empowerment. I totally understand the context that you are using it.

I was in a car with a friend of mine and her 12 year old daughter one time and we passed something on the road, and her daughter said, "Gawd, that's so gay". Her mom went ballistic, I turned to her, I asked her what was wrong with her saying it. She was just like that was disrespectful to you, I was like, um no it wasn't, that all she was saying is that what she saw was simply stupid.

There is a lot of people who don't even realize how the term gay evolved into referring to homosexuals. It was used as "code" in the public sphere for gay men to identify each other back in the 20's so that they wouldn't be chastised or beaten up. It was basically similar to today's terminology of men who are "on the down low".; August 02, 2008 10:54 PM
apissedant said...: jean,
Much of that is true, but you have by the exact same argument never experienced what I have. Therefore, it is just as likely that you do not understand me as me not understanding you. To assume the misunderstanding must be on the other end is offensive. That was my point, and actually, was sort of my original point. My original statement that you guys treat gay and old differently is a semi-ridiculous argument I admit, but it was on response to an equally ridiculous argument that because I use the word gay, the world is crumbling and people are dying.; August 02, 2008 10:57 PM
apissedant said...: Dave,
I completely agree, but remember, I am a white, straight male. All generations are the easy generation for me in terms of that. Although I don't really adhere to the Christian faith, which costs me a few points, but other than that... doesn't matter what generation I'm born in... I can coast in terms of discrimination... ;)

My only "troubles" come in from associating with various groups being discriminated against, and I guarantee the trouble is far less than what would have been there in the 60's no doubt.

That was actually one of my arguments if you go back far enough though. Our generation is much more tolerant and those before us did pave the way. The reason it sometimes appear as if we're less tolerant is because it is much more visible now, because the gays are out, and the blacks are in the same neighborhoods as us, and the women are working alongside of us. It is hard to keep the discrimination hidden behind closed doors now. Still happens, but it is no where near as easy, and gets caught much more often, and is no longer acceptable.

You know if you showed up an hour ago you could have moderated the entire discussion and prevented a silly argument. ;); August 02, 2008 11:03 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Beryl-

Here is the McCain ad where McCain puts Obama's face on money, Statue of Liberty, and Mt. Rushmore...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPARec32KMI

.; August 02, 2008 11:04 PM
apissedant said...: and Dave,
I knew you wouldn't chastise me, because you and I have joked each other back and forth on issues similar to that. I halfway remember the one I deleted because it truly was offensive, but I knew you would still find it funny and realize it was in jest.; August 02, 2008 11:05 PM
apissedant said...: soft,
That technology you showed won't work for cars, just so you know. Not enough power generation, even if they perfect it. The only way around it is if the solar panels are strong enough where they can do the process in the car real time. Hydrogen gas gives off 1/8 of the energy propane gives off per liter, so you'd be filling up every 50 miles. Still cool, and still has many uses though.; August 02, 2008 11:07 PM
Beryl said...: Thanks, Leah. I remember that stupid McCain ad. I thought it came out after McCain played the race card though. Maybe I saw it later. I avoid looking at anything about McCain.; August 02, 2008 11:10 PM
jean said...: Leah,
You say OLD like it is a virus that it is killing millions.
Last I heard Obama is trying to be drama free and stick to the issues.

The "off topic issues" are quite relevant in todays society that must be dealt with continuously
which the republicans ignore and condemn.

Let us look: gays, have and have nots, teenagers and responsibility,
gangs, age discrempancies, and we agree and disagree.

Having a forum to discuss these things which obviously the current heads of state do not give a crap is nice.

At this point and time the news is slow (summer and vacation) and will obviously speed up soon.

If you feel this is harmful to the Obama campaign I really want to hear and if not to me you know the e-mail to Matt.

If Matt wants to change the original post I will follow simply because it is DemConWatch's property(Matt,Oreo,DocJess,Hope4Obama,Mr Super,Zennie Abraham,Jeff Strater).

I have respect for what they have done.

jean; August 02, 2008 11:14 PM
suzihussein22 said...: i v-on the down low? lame? I'm going to have to find that slang website again. Is flamin still current?; August 02, 2008 11:14 PM
jean said...: ap,
Real quick, ya right.
I am not saying the world is crumbling and dying if you say gay.
It just honestly does not help.
Really care.
jean; August 02, 2008 11:18 PM
Independent Voter said...: p'd ant - sorry, I was busy and it took me quite some time to catch up on all the reading :)

On the solar panel issue. I agree that it may not work on cars directly, for now, however it could still have a HUGE impact on vehicles. Think about it. The up and coming vehicles are going to be plug-in hybrids. Therefore if the technology is used to provide the electricity to charge the plug-in hybrid, then yes, it DOES have a direct impact on fuel consumption. :); August 02, 2008 11:18 PM
Independent Voter said...: Oh, and every now and then people will use the words flamin' or flamers, which are used in a derogatory manner. I don't recall anyone ever using either of those terms in a positive light.; August 02, 2008 11:24 PM
Beryl said...: "Leah,
You say OLD like it is a virus that it is killing millions.
Last I heard Obama is trying to be drama free and stick to the issues."

I don't think Leah meant the comment it in a negative way except in McCain's case. He is out of touch and we can assume (positively) it is because of his age. McCain is in my Mom's generation. My mother text messages me everyday on her Treo 700p. Many people her age are in touch.

It is like the Reagan argument: "YOUTH" can also mean "inexperience". It all depends on the person.; August 02, 2008 11:26 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: jean -

I say OLD regarding McCain because he IS OLD and in my opinion HE is too old to be an effective president. McCain is an OLD grumpy angry jealous man!

As far as me emailing Matt, etc., yes, I do know how to email him. I have been the one emailing him for the past couple of months regarding the trolls. So, forgive me but I do not need any advice in that department, but your suggestion has been noted.

As far as my comments regarding trying to keep the thread discussions more slanted towards the election, candidates, and the convention - I think I have said what I wanted to say in a respectful manner.

I do know that it is my choice to come to this thread or not to... I was just hoping that the discussions here would be a bit more election driven so that 'I' and some of the new folks that drop in would be more apt to stay.

Obama '08; August 02, 2008 11:26 PM
jean said...: Indy,
Just show up sooner!!!!!!!!!!1
OK.
jean; August 02, 2008 11:30 PM
apissedant said...: jean,
Sitting on my butt and watching this stupid movie two times in a row because I'm too lazy to change the channel is helping, but it isn't hurting either. As you claim that using the word gay perpetuates discrimination, I state that attacking people for statements meant with no harm intended, and calling them homophobic, racist, or sexist, perpetuates discrimination, and makes them more apt to believe in the ridiculous reverse discrimination theory. It is the problem of the boy who cried wolf. There is real discrimination, and real bigotry, and when we attack something that isn't intended to be discriminatory or bigoted, it reduces our credibility to call out real discrimination.

It is the reason why most people, including myself dislike Rev. Jesse Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton. They spend so much time screaming racism, that we stop listening. Sometimes they have a real case, but we don't bother listening because we saw those five times they screamed racism when it wasn't, like saying Barack Obama talks down to black people. Pick your battles, attack the big stuff, and conserve your discrimination capital. It sounds silly, but it is true. My one female roommate cries sexism almost every single day, and I honestly tune her out. I'm willing to bet she confronts some, but I'd never buy it anymore, because she had her head up her hind end so many times that it is no longer believable.; August 02, 2008 11:31 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: GOP Consultant: McCain A "Grumpy Old Man"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/29/gop-consultant-mccain-a-g_n_115589.html

.; August 02, 2008 11:32 PM
apissedant said...: Dave, you are completely right on the solar panels. Oh, and on that note, here is something they've been talking about for a bit. It also applies directly to Barack Obama's energy policy, which doesn't sound like it makes any sense, because they use bad terminology, but I eventually found something relevant.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=grass-makes-better-ethanol-than-corn; August 02, 2008 11:33 PM
apissedant said...: I was canvassing this morning, and his energy policy said he wanted to cut carbon content in fuel by 10%, which just sounds retarded, because fuel IS carbon. You read further in detail, and it doesn't really mean what they're saying at all, but it is a good and plausible policy.; August 02, 2008 11:34 PM
jean said...: ap,
You are under the assumption that all these people do not mean harm.
Let this go to the grave quietly;)
You just said retarded to irritate me didn't you.
jean

Leah,
Have you noticed that the news currently is like the Enquirer and not George Orwell?
jean; August 02, 2008 11:42 PM
Independent Voter said...: p'd ant - I too, believe his energy policy is plausible. And yes, I've heard about the switchgrass argument. I'm just not sure if the ethanol is the best route to follow. Especially if they are going to continue using corn as the primary source. I do like the idea of switchgrass but I think that we need to do something other than petroleum based fuels.

I know Brazil has been successful, and I think if we had as much access to sugarcane like they do, ethanol may be the better route, but since we don't I really like the solar panel idea in conjunction with plug-in hybrids. It just makes a lot more sense. Now combine the two and in my opinion we have a total winner.; August 02, 2008 11:48 PM
apissedant said...: lol, jean,
No, I seriously didn't. I told you, it is just part of my vocabulary, and it takes a lot of effort and thought to not use it in a sentence. Sorry. ;)

As far as I'm concerned, you ought to know I mean no harm, and it isn't like I walk up to random people and say, "that's so gay." But yes, let us leave this bloody, sad, and tortured excuse for a dead dog lie.

By the way, my wife's job is to work with down syndrome patients, and I have met them and they are wonderful people. I definitely do not mean to insult them in any way shape or form. The only two things she loves more than her patients is myself and our soon to be child. I obviously love, respect, and cherish those things that are important and bring happiness to my wife, so there is definitely no way I would offend them on purpose.

Actually, assuming we have a boy, I think the reason she agreed on the name I liked is because the shortened version is the same as her favorite patient.; August 02, 2008 11:51 PM
Independent Voter said...: LOL jean, I'll do my best in showing up sooner next time.

By the way, starting this Wednesday, I'll be taking a 2 1/2 week hiatus from politics in general. My brother and his oldest daughter are coming out (on Wednesday) and we are going up to six flags (Thursday), and return that night, and go to Sea World on Friday, and then they are leaving on Saturday, HOWEVER, Friday is the start of the Olympics. I will be watching the Olympics on a daily basis and avoiding ANY news that may be taking place.

I'll probably be checking in during that time, but won't be too active in participation. :); August 02, 2008 11:53 PM
suzihussein22 said...: I wonder if this should be called the Judas hug. First "W", now McCain's rescuer-

http://tinyurl.com/3jwrd6; August 02, 2008 11:57 PM
apissedant said...: Leah,
I know you sometimes argue that the arguments drive down participation, but look at the number of posts in the last 3 hours, and how many people participated. It is actually the arguments that have the highest amount of participation, and all of the arguments with the exception of the stupid, "you're not really a Chemist" argument I had with Mike(troll), they have mostly all been about real politics and ongoing issues that matter to this specific election cycle. I do feel bad on occasion, because I know it annoys you, and I respect you and don't want to diminish from your enjoyment of this site, but I also have little will power when it comes to resisting arguments.; August 02, 2008 11:57 PM
apissedant said...: Dave,
The energy crisis is a VERY big crisis, and no one, two, three, or even four "fixes" will work by themselves. Ethanol is a terrible idea, and a total pork project for Iowa, the first state to vote in the primaries. SOME ethanol from REASONABLE sources is a nice little patch. This switch grass they speak of in this article is only proposed to be used on the 35 million acres of farmland currently not being used. It doesn't degrade the soil, very low on pollution, and very high energy output despite not being labor intensive.

Do you know what ethanol replaced as an additive in our fuels?; August 03, 2008 12:01 AM
jean said...: ap,
I am totally with you.
You have a very special wife.
jean

Indy,
Perfect timing on you mini vacation from politics.
Do not forget about Universal Studios.
Great with the teenage crowd,
especially the Haunted House.
Different than any you have ever been.
Have a good night.
jean; August 03, 2008 12:01 AM
apissedant said...: Dave, you should write my letter on why I want to go to the University of Groningen. I don't like writing BS letters, plus I've been unusually disgruntled and unmotivated of late. It isn't cool. I miss my wifey. :(; August 03, 2008 12:02 AM
apissedant said...: Oh, and Universal Studios has the hip dining and dancing nightlife too. What is it, City Walk or something?; August 03, 2008 12:03 AM
jean said...: ap,
You grumpy lately????????????
No way.
Remember I really care;)
jean; August 03, 2008 12:07 AM

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