Democratic Convention Watch: Open Thread

Tuesday, April 01, 2008

Open Thread

WE'VE MOVED! Democratic Convention Watch is now at http://www.DemocraticConventionWatch.com

What is McCain's latest "senior moment", what does Obama need to do to win in November or whatever else is on your mind.

And please be excellent to one another. We do not accept name calling or any attacks on our commenters. Any objectionable comments will be deleted. Try to be civil.

Thanks!

New Open Thread here
This one is now closed for comments.

4188 comments:

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apissedant said...: Leah,
Yeah, I figured as much with your response. Probably a smart idea on your part, but I read everything for some reason. I always "think" about ignoring people... but in the end I'm always curious what they have to say.; June 18, 2008 10:11 PM
Meg said...: Leah:

Thanks for that link. I am amazed that a man I only know from TV could have such an impact. All those people at the service spoke of honor, integrity, humility, and great intelligence with no envy. Tim never tried to build himself up by tearing others down.

Perhaps some of the people on this blog could think about that before they start hurling insults.; June 18, 2008 10:12 PM
Meg said...: Apissed, your post got in before mine. My last comment was not aimed at you.; June 18, 2008 10:15 PM
apissedant said...: beryl,
I would agree. Most people have seen Michelle Obama speak a grand total of, what... twice? Each of these were tiny snippets, maybe eight words a piece. From these 16 words, all of these people, including reporters... decided that they now had Michelle pegged. Now they're seeing more, and they like it. So now they're claiming it isn't the same woman, that she has had a political makeover.
This statement requires that their analysis based off a grand total of sixteen words was right. This seems unlikely to me. Wouldn't it be more probable that they were just wrong about who they thought she was? But of course, this would require admitting a mistake, and people don't like doing that.; June 18, 2008 10:33 PM
apissedant said...: emma,
Thanks for the clarification.; June 18, 2008 10:35 PM
stopOBAMAnow said...: "Perhaps some of the people on this blog could think about that before they start hurling insults."

Will you practice what you preach?

If you don't like an alternate point of view, you ARE the first one to hurl insults! Others follow you!

Go to a mirror and see for yourself!!

__________________________

RodentinMD:

You ARE such an obnoxious person, IMO.

You cannot handle criticism or an alternate point of view.

You need to live in a closed Echo Chamber to keep yourself happy all the time! Go get a life, Rodent!!; June 18, 2008 10:39 PM
Meg said...: Stop:

I don't think you'll respond, since I've asked you questions before which you haven't answered, but on the off chance that you do... can you give me an example of when I have insulted someone on this blog?; June 18, 2008 10:47 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: stopOBAMAnow said...
. . . RodentinMD:

Is there now any doubt that SON and the Yammerer are one and the same?

And appissedant and Emma - are you delirious with joy that he/she/it is taking the same position as you?

Mike; June 18, 2008 10:48 PM
Hippolytus said...: Mike in MD,
I read your posts with interest, and you very often have something insightful and intelligent to say.
However, I don't understand your penchant for addressing other bloggers with condescension, as you are doing most recently with ap'dant. I can only assume it is some kind of compensatory behavior on your part.
I'm not looking to pick a fight, but pass on my observation as a disinterested observer. You might be well served by reflecting on this. My guess is that everyone on this blog would be willing to stipulate that you're a reasonably intelligent guy with a competent command of the English language.
~ Hippolytus; June 18, 2008 10:50 PM
apissedant said...: Keith did a good job on the Enron reporting. He aired the McCain response, which was a good response. He also admitted that Obama had someone in his campaign tied to the energy industry. That was very balanced of him. I like Keith, but I am not used to him doing that well with showing both sides of the coin. I liked it. The truth already leans liberal, no need to bias the truth any further.; June 18, 2008 10:50 PM
Beryl said...: I don't see Obama giving exposure to McCain by going on Town Hall tours with him.

1. Obama is the front-runner. He is whipping McBush in Ohio, Penn, & Florida. He needs to follow his own plan getting to know the country on his own schedule.

2. Obama draws big crowds. Given our current state of the nation, we all want to be inspired. I wouldn't go across the street to see McCain even if I would be promised a front-row seat with free Margaritas and Nachos (well maybe I would for that).

3. Obama has lots of money from lots of little donors. He needs to spend it wisely and not help out McCain who can only get money from the corporatists.

During that 10-15 minutes with McCain, Obama probably politely said he would give his ideas considerable thought.

"Let's have lunch sometime and talk it over."

LOL!; June 18, 2008 10:53 PM
apissedant said...: mike in md,
I don't recall ever referring to Stop. I did, however, refer to emma, hip, leah, dave, and Richard. All those listed have questioned your spiteful and hate filled statements and their motivations.

I assume you have just ignored all of their posts that have disagreed with your opinions.

As far as Stop is concerned... with the exception of his interactions with you, he has been respectful of the other posters here. I disagree with him on almost everything, I suspect that he is Yamaka, and I don't like that he ignores many questions that I assume he has no answer for. I would point out that he has been more respectful of me than I have been of him.
(He has been very disrespectful of Obama, which I do not like.); June 18, 2008 11:01 PM
apissedant said...: beryl,
What if you were able to ask McCain the infamous, "did you call your wife a c***" question, and free nachos?; June 18, 2008 11:05 PM
Independent Voter said...: beryl,

My suggestion to Obama would be to say ok fine, I'll do 3 TH's with you (NOT 10 but 3). Each campaign would be given equal number of tickets to give out so neither side could load the audience. Each one of them get to choose one location each. And each one would give a recommendation as to where the third one would be, and then the flip of a coin would determine which location that third one would be.

And then each one pays for the location of the decision, and then the third one they split the cost. For the third one, Obama's recommendation should be the most expensive location he can find and drain the hell out of McCain's funds :); June 18, 2008 11:07 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Hey y'all...having a great week with my sister-in-law...big disconnect from politics, but saw that Gore endorsed Obama...big fist bump to Mrs. Obama..my rep. hasn't endorsed yet, the wimp...How about them Celtics?:D; June 18, 2008 11:12 PM
stopOBAMAnow said...: "Is there now any doubt that SON and the Yammerer are one and the same?"

RodentinMD:

NO, you are wrong, again.

I like Yamaka because I like his views on most of the issues we discuss here. Again, this is a place we talk politics, not some English lessons and Literature.

I know Yamaka called you by this name several times, because you call him names and he just returned the favor!

WE both are centrists and fiscal conservatives. We have similar feathers and we flock together. What's wrong in it?

About 20 of you here belong to the same Liberal Ideologies and you like one another, mostly. We don't call all of you as just ONE person! You ARE all different individuals. Likewise, Yamaka is a different person living in Houston, and I live in Dallas. Both are Texans!!

TX will NOT go for Obama anytime soon. We ARE mostly centrists and (fiscal) conservatives.

Rodent, stop being such an obnoxious old stony brain.; June 18, 2008 11:26 PM
apissedant said...: Dave,
I like it... how about a the International Space Station? 20 million a pop. Does that count as a town?; June 18, 2008 11:29 PM
stopOBAMAnow said...: "Obama draws big crowds. Given our current state of the nation, we all want to be inspired"

beryl:

Yes, Obama had big crowds in NY, CA, TX, PA, OH, KY, WV, PR etc. People came to see him and listen to his rhetorical eloquence.

But, when they went to the polls in their privacy, they DID not vote for him. He lost Primaries of all these major battle ground States.

This COULD very well repeat in Nov.

Follow the AOL Straw Poll at the end of every week to know an alternate point of view, if you care.; June 18, 2008 11:35 PM
Independent Voter said...: p'd ant - that would be awesome.

From what I've seen and read, it is a "city" within itself, right? At least John McBush would have a shot at getting Martians to vote for him. Nah, I didn't think so either. LOL; June 18, 2008 11:36 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: apissedant,

Yes, I've read the others' comments.

And you know what? They don't faze me a bit.

Why?

I do not like the attitude you came here with, and your constant flaunting of that 'arguing for argument's sake' with no purpose.

Even when you are not doing that, though, sometimes it is difficult to figure out where you are coming from. Is it humor? Is it sarcasm? It is factual?

Clarity of communication helps you TO communicate. You might find that idea helpful as you try to attain an advanced degree. If you continue to make obtuse or obscure comments, don't expect to have all of them understood by everyone. Some will even turn your arguing for argument's sake attitude back on you, pretending to not understand, just to show how obtuse or obscure your comments were.

Mike; June 18, 2008 11:37 PM
Independent Voter said...: stop, you know what I am personally sick of your bullshit!

You clearly have no REAL logical thought process. How many times have you been told that "straw polls" are UNSCIENTIFIC! I voted in the same frickin straw poll 5 times in a row, without closing my browser or changing browsers.

You can take your straw poll and shove it where the good lord (if there was a god) split ya.; June 18, 2008 11:39 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Is this a good thing?-

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-congress-iraq-funding,0,5640063.story; June 18, 2008 11:39 PM
apissedant said...: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g6iopUkG84

My favorite Tim Russert moment.; June 18, 2008 11:40 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Yeah... McAuliffe was a real idiot that day on Russert's show!

I heard today someone say that one of Russert's pet peeves was that politicians never just would come out and say "yep, that's what I said before but I've changed my mind"

and when I heard that I thought about Obama - Obama did tell Russert on his show something like "yeah, I did tell you a while back that I wasn't going to run for president but I changed my mind".

That was pretty cool ;); June 18, 2008 11:52 PM
justin said...: Softspoken said...
Is this a good thing?-

This is too complicated to be good or bad. There is good here, including the GI college bill increase.

There is bad here, like not paying for the GI college bill increase, like giving $162,000,000,000.00 to Dubya to continue his war.

The Senate version previously had some money for Dept of Health and Human Services that was introduced by Sen. Harkin (D-Iowa), including some for the NIH.

Harkin Said: “We are now spending $16 million an hour in Iraq while our economy struggles and American families feel the pain,” said Harkin. “I believe we have a responsibility to also take care of the needs in our own backyards. With this funding package we can give our own country an economic boost, bolster our investment in life-saving research and keep drugs and crime off our streets. While the President may insist on pouring American tax dollars into his war in Iraq, I will continue to fight for investments that will strengthen our communities and our economy here at home.”

Wow, $16,000,000.00 an hour. I'm spelling out the costs so we can see all the zero's. I can't tell if this funding for the DHHS is in the house version.; June 18, 2008 11:56 PM
justin said...: Sorry, to clarify...

I am shocked at the $16M/hr amount.

Separately, I supported the DHHS funding ($400M/1 year for the NIH) that Harkin proposed.; June 19, 2008 12:02 AM
Independent Voter said...: ss - I personally say it is a good thing. Not that we are having to borrow MORE money from China, but I'll give you a list as to why I think it is a good thing.

1. Increases the GI Bill
2. Increases the length of time for unemployment - due to the recession
3. Provides funding to the midwest - due to flooding
4. Prevents Congress from having to revisit the issue before the election.

Regarding #4 - remember voters have a short attention span. so what happens now, will more than likely not even be a thought in November. If this came up then, chances are it could be used against either candidate.; June 19, 2008 12:11 AM
suzihussein22 said...: iv-I didn't understand if the war funding is for in the future. In a way, it's good that parts of the bill can be passed separately. They still haven't been able to reconcile funding with borrowing.

I think McCain just made another mistake by pushing for drilling off the coasts and in protected regions. Crist seems to be going right along with him. That might weaken his standing in FL further and open the door for Obama. We can HOPE.; June 19, 2008 12:29 AM
justin said...: What do you think about nuclear power. If we want to decrease CO2 output, and be ebergy independent, it looks good. The radioactive waste issue seems to be a fear of the unknown, shouldn't be as much of an issue as it is.; June 19, 2008 12:33 AM
suzihussein22 said...: justin-Being close, as the crows fly, to Oak Ridge, makes me a little uneasy. There have been increased reports of cancer in that area. There again, it will take time to implement. In the meantime, companies have not done much with alternate energy sources, but several individuals with a lot less resources have been very innovative. What does this tell us?; June 19, 2008 12:39 AM
stopOBAMAnow said...: Indy:

I heard your logic.

But, I believe in the AOL Straw Poll because:

1. McCAin supporters ARE NOT Net savvy to manipulate, unlike the Obama's and Ron Paul's

2. The n is very large to nullify any mischief by people like you and others.

3. This is clean w/o any massaging and manipulation by some pedestrian Company who is paid to manipulate the numbers.

4. I like when you get angry. You come across very pathetic and terribly immature.

5. You just cannot stand another alternate point of view.

Get angry and burn yourself, why do I care!

You are a student, just learning the ropes!!

__________________________

On National Security and War on Terror, BHO is losing the argument.

He does NOT want to kill Osama!

That's one reason Americans don't trust him.; June 19, 2008 12:39 AM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 19, 2008 12:48 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: DCW has posted an updated General Election Tracker!; June 19, 2008 12:51 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Hi everyone how is everybody doing?

I'm madder than an old wet hen. I guess when I was bush hogging the day before yesterday. I had to crawl under the bush hog and get the blades untangled from some wire. Well [Dave this should give you a good laugh][no insult intended]go ahead and send me a VBG! I either laid in red bugs or poison ivy. Yesterday I had to go get a shot I started to tell the nurse to let me do it because she wasn't worth a crap at giving shots I've got a bruise on my butt the size of a golf ball and I have caladryl from waist up. To top it all today is my birthday and I have big plans with the beau. Now isn't that the pits.Depressed and mad Jean; June 19, 2008 12:51 AM
suzihussein22 said...: aunt jean-

http://www.abelincoln.com/cliffhangers/images/sc-21.jpg

'nite zzz; June 19, 2008 1:06 AM
Independent Voter said...: OMG Aunt Jean.......LOL! That SOOOOOOOO Sucks!

Happy Birthday though. No need to be depressed though, it will soon pass. I've had poison ivy before and man does it SUCK! But from what I remember it didn't really take me very long to fight it off.; June 19, 2008 1:08 AM
Aunt Jean said...: SS

Can I change my mind I forgot what a old wet hen looks like LOL!!!! Jean; June 19, 2008 1:11 AM
Independent Voter said...: Stop, as far as me being "just a student", nice try. I will be graduating in December. My major is Political Science with emphasis on policy and statistical analysis. So as far as your claim that I don't know what I'm talking about, trust me, it is YOU who is the DOLT - IN EVERY sense of the word.

Hmmmmmm, I guess you are saying that McCain's supporters are stupid....I won't disagree with you on that one, but it really doesn't take a genius to figure out how to manipulate the numbers - which obviously you are NOT even CLOSE to being intelligent. If you were you would realize how ridiculous your "logic" really is.; June 19, 2008 1:13 AM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 19, 2008 1:14 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Dave thanks for the birthday wish. I'm also taking some meds for it so hopefully it will be a lot better by Saturday. That is when I have the plans with my beau. I knew you would get a laugh out of it you turd VBG. Jean; June 19, 2008 1:16 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Dave here's a thought I just hope nobody wants to give me a birthday spanking. I might have to use a whole roll of charmin toliet paper. LOL LOL!!!! Jean; June 19, 2008 1:21 AM
Independent Voter said...: LOL Aunt Jean - btw, I'm going to start calling you AJ. I hope you don't mind.

It has been a very long time, but if it is poison ivy it won't necessarily be cleared up completely but the itching should be gone by then. You'll probably have some residual rash from it, but it won't be too bad.

Now as far as the lump on your ass.....that's another story.....LOL VBG; June 19, 2008 1:21 AM
Independent Voter said...: AJ - Dave here's a thought I just hope nobody wants to give me a birthday spanking. I might have to use a whole roll of charmin toliet paper. LOL LOL!!!! Jean

----------

ROFL!!!!!!! Better make sure it's a double roll........LOL; June 19, 2008 1:22 AM
Independent Voter said...: oops AJ, my bad, I thought you said there was a lump (due to the shot) but I went back and saw that you said a bruise. Sorry, I guess I was just thinking about all the times I got shots back there, the injection sites always created a lump before they would disperse. :(; June 19, 2008 1:25 AM
stopOBAMAnow said...: "And you know what? They don't faze me a bit."

RodentinMD:

Just quit your obsession; you come across NOT as a retired matured guy, but a crying baby in a crib!!

Grow up, RodentinMD.; June 19, 2008 1:33 AM
stopOBAMAnow said...: "My major is Political Science with emphasis on policy and statistical analysis."

Maybe you will have a degree soon. But, you don't have the experience! Like BHO is. He can talk the talk, but cannot walk the talk!

There are dime a dozen grads with political science and Stat! It has no market value, believe me!!

Get some real life experience, and get a high paying job to pay 35% of marginal tax on your earnings!

Good luck, you need a lot!; June 19, 2008 1:44 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Aunt Jean -

Happy Birthday!

Independent voter -

I had to go back and read it again too because I thought it was a lump - I guess the word 'golf ball' put a round lumpy image in our heads.

Obama '08; June 19, 2008 1:47 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Dave if I use 2 double rolls I won't be lopsided but it might give me a big butt. [There's a thought I might keep that up] LOL VBG. No I don't mind you calling me AJ. AJ; June 19, 2008 1:51 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Leah thanks a bunch for the birthday wish. No my bottom is not lumpy except where the bruise is lol VBG. Dave got me to laughing and it felt great. Jean; June 19, 2008 1:53 AM
Independent Voter said...: Kujo - you forgot one word

stopobamanow = McCain = DOLT = weak on terror; June 19, 2008 2:28 AM
Independent Voter said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 19, 2008 2:36 AM
Independent Voter said...: It has been real. Goodnight Leah, kujo, p'd ant, Mike in MD, everyone else. And goodnight and HAPPY BIRTHDAY AJ!!!!!!

Stop - I would like to make a suggestion. You really need to pull your head out of your rectum. I think you have lost enough oxygen at this point. By the way, I recently found your most recent PORTRAIT; June 19, 2008 2:40 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Bob Barr, the Libertarian Party presidential nominee, was interviewed on washingtonpost.com's "PostTalk" program on Wednesday.

"With regard to domestic policy, Sen. McCain really has put forward nothing that would indicate he believes in dramatically shrinking the size and cost of the government," Barr said.

What's more interesting to me is that Barr said "we really do" see an opportunity to match or exceed Paul's performance in Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Indiana and West Virginia, where Paul picked up between eight percent and 15 percent of the Republican primary vote. He also expects to run strong in the West, Southwest, and a handful of southern and Northeastern states (New Hampshire maybe?).

As pointed out by the Post, no Libertarian has received more than 1,000,000 votes in any General Election. Barr expects to exceed that number by quite a bit.

I could see him running stronger than the 'run of the mill' Libertarian candidate in the South, especially in both the Carolinas, Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi and Alabama. Also, if the David Duke supporters get behind him, Louisiana could be closer than most currently expect.

If he runs strong [for a Libertarian] in Nevada and New Mexico, those states will almost certainly go for Senator Obama.

A lot of what he stated today was nothing but the usual minor-party candidate blathering. However, I'm almost ready to contribute to his campaign just to keep him in the race and give McSame nightmares about the right-wing of the right-wing party deserting him.

Post article and a short video clip of the interview can be found at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/18/AR2008061802117.html?hpid=topnews

Mike; June 19, 2008 3:01 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Goodnight everyone pleasant dreams. Jean; June 19, 2008 3:06 AM
Karen Anne said...: Hi, Aunt Jean,

Sorry about the poison ivy or whatever. I still can't recognize it even though I stare at photos, so I live in dread when I go into the fields which is a shame, because I like to do that.

It is weird how some nurses/techs are good at shots and drawing blood and some are the pits :-) The difference between a tiny pin prick and a big bruise.; June 19, 2008 6:08 AM
Karen Anne said...: Does anyone know what the Obama Index is that DCW has posted on its lefthand side? Is it their guess at the electoral votes? Thanks.; June 19, 2008 6:23 AM
suzihussein22 said...: Charmin?! Are you guys elitist?! :)
Just don't squeeze it Aunt Jean! I prefer Cottonelle with ripples and K-Mart usually has a really good sale on it.; June 19, 2008 7:41 AM
Aunt Jean said...: SS22

that was good!!!VBG Jean; June 19, 2008 8:53 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Karen Anne

I guess I'm pretty good at giving shots been told. When I had my farm I would give my grown bull shots in the field he was to big to put in the shoot. He was a very gentle bull [thank god]. Now the cows were a different story they were sour pusses.VBG Jean; June 19, 2008 8:59 AM
apissedant said...: Mike,
You're repetitive, find a new line. It is getting a bit old.

Leah,
You know, I still wonder who we have left now, to both keep the peace and allow everyone to air their opinion. No matter what Russert's personal opinion, he always allowed everyone the ability to speak openly. He let us judge who was right and who was wrong.

Dave,
Yes, they do say it is a city by itself. It has Americans on board also, so they can still answer questions. Obama might even be able to chalk it up as some extra foreign policy experience. I call that a win-win.

aunt jean,
I had poison oak from my forehead to... my very private region about 4 years ago. That itched for like two weeks. No poison ivy experience though.
Oh, and happy day after your birthday.

(Sorry I left without a goodbye last night... the wifey decided it was bedtime, and she's the boss.); June 19, 2008 9:11 AM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 19, 2008 9:47 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Apissedant to day the 19th is my birthday so you're not thanks.

Poison oak and poison ivy does about the same to you. I feel better today it doesn't itch as much the shot and meds seem to be doing the job. As far as you having it from here to there poor thing. I had it one time [never had bothered me before] on my eye lids up my nose in my mouth from head to toe in places you'd think you couldn't get it was TERRIBLE so I know what you went thru. If you ever get it again go and get a steriod shot and meds it helps awhole lot believe me also using caladryl with it helps. Have a nice day my mother is taking me out to lunch [I love her]. Jean; June 19, 2008 9:50 AM
apissedant said...: Aunt Jean,
Well glad I'm not late on the birthday washes. I was in the Navy, they're not that big on treating illnesses. They were sometimes amusing though. I remember in boot camp they have the corpsman in training "practice" by drawing blood from all the new enlistees. I remember the first guy they had try to take my blood went through my arm 3 times before they switched arms and to a different corpsman. It was rather amusing watching the needle go in my arm, and then watching the tip pop back out. Ahhhh.... military medical. How I miss it.

I have tinea versicolor, and they told me to just rub head and shoulders on my back. There are pills you can take for it, but I guess it is easier for me to rub my own back.; June 19, 2008 10:02 AM
stopOBAMAnow said...: RodentinMD:

Nader will pull as much votes as Barr. In fact Nader could pull more from Obama, who is a Minority Candidate by his Primary Performance.

As per your tactics, I will send Nader $500 to encourage him to pull some more from BHO!

Kujo:

On National Security:

McCain B plus
Obama F

On Foreign Policy:

McCain B
Obama C

On Economy:

McCain B
Obama C

On Efficient Govt:

McCain B
Obama C

On Energy Security:

McCain B
Obama C

Therefore, McCain's expected EVs: 350

Obama has no chance. He flip-flopped on NAFTA and Public Financing of the GE. He wants to keep Osama alive!

You just can't trust him.

Obama = Inexperience = Dangerous

Indy:

Do you think Political Science and other "Soft Majors" will get job these days? Noooooooooo..Nah Nah...

Maybe, $10 per h jobs! Therefore, stay as Inexperienced Student for ever!! Don't grow up.

Maturity means more responsible thinking! You don't have it!!

See you in the evening.; June 19, 2008 10:03 AM
apissedant said...: Dave or anyone else following the updates to the GI Bill,
Our elected officials are continually saying they are passing this bill to help all the GIs that have served since 9/11. Well as far as I can tell, this appears like it will most likely go into effect in October, and will increase benefits from here on out. Is that a correct interpretation?
If so, this means that those of us that have either used up or GI benefits, or are nearing the end of our GI benefits, will get nothing. Isn't that rather disingenuous? I emailed Senator Webb asking about this, but I received a carbon copy reply that did not actually answer any of my questions.; June 19, 2008 10:13 AM
apissedant said...: Stop,
I believe most poly sci and history majors either go on to teach, or go on to law school. I find both of those career paths to be rather honorable, although teaching may not pay that much.; June 19, 2008 10:16 AM
stopOBAMAnow said...: "I find both of those career paths to be rather honorable, although teaching may not pay that much."

Point well taken. But, if it does not pay much for a decent living what good is "rather honorable"?

I prefer hard sciences like Engineering or Medicine.

I consider most of the "Soft Majors" potentially useless for real life. Waste of one's Youth and Energy, in my view of the world!
__________________________________

My Two Cents On Q'piac University Survey:

BHO seems to have gotten a small bump in FL OH and PA thanks to Hillary's endorsement. I would argue the bump at this point in time is curiously rather small...

Again, how could you expect more for a person who lost the Primary big time in these battleground States?

Among Whites, BHO still has problem in FL and OH (McCain is leading him by 3-10%). Most/many of the Whites just don't trust him in spite of whatever Hillary or Gore says of him.

BHO will get NY, CT, MA, CA, WA, OR for sure. All other States are very questionable.

None of the small Red States voted for him in the Primary will vote for him in the GE. Their support was just a mirage - they helped for his Nomination, that's all.

The Democratic Party at its zenith in arrogance and autocracy has fielded the Weakest (Minority) Candidate!

Good for Cindy and John McCain.

Bravo! Dems.

Now you all discriminate against Muslim women going to see BHO!! What happened to your Inclusive Politics? All Talk, No Substance!!
What else is new in BHO Land?

BHO = Inexperience = Dangerous.; June 19, 2008 11:18 AM
Vicki in Seattle said...: re: developing nuclear power: we have not figured out what to do with the OLD waste. Until that is resolved to most people's** satisfaction, we should not be generating NEW waste. I have seen the drums of waste from Savannah River, Hanford, Oak Ridge, and elsewhere, sitting in the Idaho desert. It needs to be disposed of in a more permanent manner.

JMHO

** there will always be a few that don't agree with any disposal method.; June 19, 2008 11:42 AM
jean said...: Happy B Day Aunt Jean. Sorry about the poison ivy, that sucks.
I know you will have fun with Mom at lunch. I've been away taking care of family.
Stop
Sorry you find Soft Majors so useless like Art,Music and Literature. You must pass your time always working to avoid these things. I can see your house as a plain white box. Silly person.
jean; June 19, 2008 11:47 AM
apissedant said...: stop,
Many of us only aim for enough money to live comfortably. We put more value in enjoying our job, and feeling we are doing something positive for the society around us. Being rich is not high on our list of goals.; June 19, 2008 11:50 AM
apissedant said...: vicki,
I would agree that the main problem is the fact that there will always be a few that disagree with any disposal method. No one in the state of Nevada will want it disposed there, and no one in the state of Michigan will want it disposed there. It doesn't matter how safely they contain it, people won't want to live anywhere near it. Eventually the government is just going to have to find the safest method and ignore the cries of the locals. Throw some money at the state and the people to make up for the decrease in property value. It is funny, because coal makes so much more waste, radioactive and non-radioactive... but it just throws it all up in the air, or down in the streams, and we all pretty much ignore it. I would take confined nuclear waste out of loose coal waste any day of the week.; June 19, 2008 11:53 AM
Beryl said...: What is up with John not reimbursing Cindy McCain's company for the use of her plane? Other campaigns reimburse private citizens and companies, why can't his? If it is HER company, she should be held responsible for ensuring that it is done. Is she actually responsible for her own company or is she just a figurehead?

Her recent comment bothered me. Cindy said "I don't understand" Michelle's proud comment. Laura Bush and other intelligent people understand. Is she is as dim as her husband who finished 5th from the bottom of his class? Did her drug abuse contribute to her inability to understand the comment?; June 19, 2008 11:54 AM
Richard said...: I consider most of the "Soft Majors" potentially useless for real life. Waste of one's Youth and Energy, in my view of the world!

Unless one wants to learn how to think intelligently about the things that really matter in life.; June 19, 2008 12:39 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Hi Apis....

I don't have it here at work, but I printed a copy of the actual bill. I thought there were provisions that actually went back to any after 9/11/2001 that were not under any of the other programs (VEAP, Montgomery, etc). I'll try to locate it tonight if I remember.; June 19, 2008 12:40 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Here is a link to a talking paper on it from Webb's site:

http://webb.senate.gov/pdf/factsgibill.doc

But the details were in th Bill. It should be avaliable from the Senate site.; June 19, 2008 1:00 PM
apissedant said...: emit,
Thanks. I would appreciate it if you could forward the actual bill over at your leisure. The talking points are the same as always, with no specifics given. It sounds nice, and it will be great for those currently serving. Just afraid that those of us currently piling up student loans and already near the end of our GI bill will be ignored.; June 19, 2008 1:09 PM
jean said...: Richard
Well said; June 19, 2008 1:10 PM
apissedant said...: Emit, one more question....
"To qualify, veterans must have served at least two years of active duty, with at least some period of active duty time served beginning on or after September 11, 2001."

The portion in question, "beginning on or after September 11, 2001."

Would you take that to mean that the person either enlisted, or reenlisted after 9/11/2001? Or, would you take that to mean that they served for a period of time after 9/11/2001?; June 19, 2008 1:14 PM
apissedant said...: Richard and Jean,
agreed.

Stop,
You like politics and government, and consider yourself versed in the subject, yet you write off the study of such things. It seems to me that your problem with us would be (in your opinion) our lack of knowledge on the subject. It seems to me you should want all of us to take more classes in economics, government, history, and politics. This (assuming you are correct on all these issues) would convert us over to your frame of thinking, and prevent Obama from becoming our next President. You should rethink your position.; June 19, 2008 1:23 PM
apissedant said...: This looks like an inviting place to visit and watch the wildlife.

http://www.nrdc.org/land/wilderness/arcticmap_2000acres.pdf; June 19, 2008 1:38 PM
Richard said...: apissedant: I would read that line as saying that if you served two years of active duty and at least one day of that active duty was after September 11, 2001, you would qualify.; June 19, 2008 1:41 PM
apissedant said...: richard,
I like your reading of it better than mine. ;); June 19, 2008 1:47 PM
tmess2 said...: The problem for the McCain supporters on this post is that some of us do have degrees in economics and understand that McCain's economic positions are fatally flawed.

There is a level where more taxes on the wealthy does operate as a burden on the economy, but there is no evidence supporting that we are anywhere near that level.

More importantly, for an economist, transfer payments (i.e. social security, TANF, and food stamps) are considered to be negative taxes. So cutting those benefits has the same impact on the economy as raising tax rates. In fact, they may have more of an impact as such benefits typically go to people who immediately spend that money domestically instead of investing the money -- some of which may go to places overseas.

Likewise, for an economist, the rich only produce additional macroeconomic growth of they develop new products that increase efficiency or that are exported. Anything else is merely shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. With rare exceptions, such as the Bill Gates of the world, most higher income folks (e.g. the executives of Exxon) are not the inventors but merely the managers. Similarly, a fair amount of small businesses are merely local service providers (e.g. grocery stores, construction companies, franchises of big national chains). In short, these folks are a necessary part of the economy but they are not the people who produce economic growth -- especially when their spare capital in speculative instruments rather than in venture capital.; June 19, 2008 1:49 PM
jean said...: apissedent

I think what Stop is suffering from is his lack of balance. If I remember back in those college days they required the humanities,art etc. to teach this.
This is how we grew as a society.
I do believe they still have those requirements.; June 19, 2008 1:52 PM
jean said...: tmess2
Could you please explicate on your difference between venture capital and speculative instruments.; June 19, 2008 2:01 PM
apissedant said...: tmess,
I agree. Isn't there a specific economic term for that? Maximizing revenues for the government is, at the roots, the same as maximizing profit for a company. Set the price at a level where number purchased multiplied by purchase price, minus cost of production is the greatest total value.
A tax rate could be compared by a simple analogy. The analogy would actually work in Republicans' favor while still support Democratic ideals. Assume all taxes are government, "profit." Assume that every percentage increase in taxes reduces the amount of amount of money earned by people and companies, because it decreases their incentive to earn more. Use historical tax data to decide how much less productive companies and people will be for each percentile increase in taxes.
Now use the Republican principle that decreasing taxes actually increases revenue, which means that their purpose is overall to increase total government revenue. Find the point on the graph which would allow for greatest government revenue. In my opinion, from what I have seen, historical data would show we are far from that percentage that allows peak government revenue. I believe it would actually be higher than we are currently at by quite a bit.

Also, I don't think Bill Gates actually invented anything. From what I understood, he bought the program off someone else for 50,000. I would bet he made modifications, but he didn't invent. That is the story how I heard it at least. Please correct me if I'm wrong.; June 19, 2008 2:05 PM
apissedant said...: jean,
In regular college yes. However, remember we have the technical school revolution now. Many people are getting 2 year bachelors degrees where they only delve into their major area. Also, I can't speak for people of the past, but most of my classmates are asleep or absent during the general education classes. I hope that is a new trend. Or they are waiting impatiently for class to end, and upset that I am correcting the teacher because Leonardo's helicoptor was not, "exactly like today's helicoptor," and "four score and seven years ago," was not, "just the way they talked back then."; June 19, 2008 2:10 PM
apissedant said...: Oh, and I can't forget, George Washington is NOT the 9th President, those that came before him were, "President of the United States in Congress Assembled." Which, not only has a different name, but is part of the legislative and not the executive branch anyways, so there is no comparison. Ugh... just because there's a teacher in the front of the room does not mean the students are learning.; June 19, 2008 2:12 PM
jean said...: Not having balanced individuals is disturbing.
My son is a Math and Physics wizz but loves history and loves funky art. He is 14.
Perhaps there is a reason that I am taking so much time with my kids.; June 19, 2008 2:20 PM
apissedant said...: jean,
congrats... more should do that as well. The Renaissances Man (or woman) is a dying breed.; June 19, 2008 2:24 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: I find this a bit odd for a couple reasons

1) That Sen Claire McCaskill is the sponsor (person that introduced the bill), and

2) That there hasn't been more discussion about this. I know there was some talk about McCain being legal because he was born in a Military Post's Hospital, but makes you wonder.....

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:S.Res.511:; June 19, 2008 2:28 PM
jean said...: I know a lot of kids like that and the parents are riding behind.
The funniest part is that most of them are Republicans where I live.
I am definitly the minority and my son still made the High School Baseball team:)
All is not lost.; June 19, 2008 2:33 PM
apissedant said...: emit,
It is kind of a dog without teeth, isn't it? Only the Supreme Court or a Constitutional amendment can change the meaning or wording of the constitution.

To me it is obvious he is a natural born citizen, as will be my child born in the Netherlands. I believe if you are born a US citizen, then you are a natural born citizen. I believe that to be the intention, and I assume the SC would rule the same way.

Either way, a Senate bill can't change anything one way or the other, so it is just another pointless piece of legislation that means nothing.; June 19, 2008 2:36 PM
Richard said...: I agree with everyone who has spoken about the need for balance in education. The rise of technical degrees and the demise of many general requirements even in liberal arts institutions is troubling. I personally don't think anyone should graduate from college without having proved his ability to read and critically interpret, to evaluate and judge, and to express his ideas in writing. Furthermore, I think all should have exposure to another language, to at least one of the social sciences, to mathematics, and to science. Those used to be the hallmark of an educated person and, in my opinion, they still are.; June 19, 2008 2:50 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Ok apis.....

You can find th full bill at:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c110:6:./temp/~c110vceMo0::

There are different levels of entitlements within the bill, and thus 8 different levels of terms to be a qualified individual. They range from as few as 90days-6 months, to higher level of entitlements for those that are in for at least 36 months commencing on or after 9/11.

Looks like I would be in group 2, but may need a law degree to figure out what that means for me. LOL; June 19, 2008 2:54 PM
apissedant said...: emit,
When did you enlist? I still see problems with the use of the word, "commencing". This means beginning.; June 19, 2008 3:01 PM
jean said...: Richard
That is the exact summer assignment for my daughter in AP English for 11th grade.
This is taught in High School.
Many parents do not have their kids take these classes because it is "Hard".
Public Schools are there with the resources but many do not use them.
jean; June 19, 2008 3:01 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: LOL well, back in 1981. Man that seems like a long time ago. Doubt I would use any of the bennies, but think they should be there for those that would.

To the point (mentally and physically) that I want to do less and not too worried about money. Now that I live in Texas my AF Retirement and VA Disability would almost be enough to live on. If I can get a couple more good paying years out of the job I'm in now anyway.; June 19, 2008 3:19 PM
apissedant said...: ugh,
I'm going to have to read that bill later. I have a test in an hour... but I think I'm left in the cold on this one.; June 19, 2008 3:20 PM
apissedant said...: emit,
You probably reenlisted more recently. As far as I can read... from my lack of a legal degree and all... I read that unless you enlisted or reenlisted after 9/11, you're screwed. So, myself, who enlisted have the Cole, gets nothing. That's life. =/; June 19, 2008 3:22 PM
Richard said...: Jean: Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. There are lots of opportunities in many public high schools to take courses which are in many cases harder than college courses. I myself just finished teaching an AP Latin: Vergil course in which my students read and interpreted the Aeneid in Latin and wrote critical essays demonstrating their knowledge not only of poetry and Latin, but of the social and political context of the time.

I still think there is a huge place for broad liberal-arts requirements in undergraduate programs, even for those majoring in things like science and engineering. What will become of a nation of stockbrokers and engineers who can't read a poll or discuss public policy intelligibly? Probably it would twice elect George W. Bush.; June 19, 2008 3:54 PM
jean said...: Richard
Just got off the conference call.
I love working at home.
Question
AP Latin
What grade and how old.
Latin is not an option in our public schools.
I do know of latin in private and the high school is $40,000 plus a year.; June 19, 2008 4:05 PM
jean said...: Are you naming Stop with your last comment?; June 19, 2008 4:06 PM
Richard said...: Jean, I'm from the Northeast, where there is much more access to Latin in public high schools. I do, however, teach at a private boarding school. I teach Latin 1 through AP Latin and Greek 1-3 (we would do Greek 4 if we ever had interest, probably). AP Latin usually requires at least three years of Latin experience, so it is usually seniors who take it.; June 19, 2008 4:25 PM
jean said...: I knew it was private.
More power to you if a parent can do that. My kids are stuck in 3rd year spanish.
Off subject.
China just increased gas prices and oil just dropped $5 a barrel.
The US right now has no control.
I am becoming more of an isolationist everyday.
jean; June 19, 2008 4:32 PM
tmess2 said...: Venture capital is investments in start-up companies (e.g. a young micro-soft or companies developing solar energy technology).

Speculation is buying oil future, or grain futures, or options, or currency. There is some need for those types of investments but such paper exchanges don't create new goods. In a healthy economy, there will be some speculation (as some of those instruments serve a necessary purpose). In recent years, however, there has been a large number of new "derivatives" created. Historically, past-peak economies begin investing in such financial paper rather than investing in developing new products.; June 19, 2008 5:42 PM
stopOBAMAnow said...: jean, apiss, richard:

My point is as per the Society's preference through its Job Market, the Soft Majors are not valued much: they are paid 10X times less than what they pay for the Engineers or Doctors.

Either there are too many of them or their services are not that valuable to the Society.

apiss: Not all engineers and doctors are "rich" people whatever that means to you. They all work very hard to achieve what they want in their lives.

You just pick your Majors and I pick mine. Nothing silly about it.; June 19, 2008 5:51 PM
stopOBAMAnow said...: "Unless one wants to learn how to think intelligently about the things that really matter in life."

richard: Thanks for the comment.

Just look around you: all that you see are built and maintained by engineers, who have the intellect, taste and more utility to the Society.

Doctors made you and me very healthy to lead our lives to the maximum potential.

Your assertion that you need to learn "Soft Majors" "to learn how to think intelligently about the things that really matter in life" is just not flying far with me!

Society makes the decision via its Job Market!; June 19, 2008 6:15 PM
Independent Voter said...: WOW! Hey all, thanks for the defense. And yes p'd ant, I do intend to go on to teach high school civics in low income neighborhoods here in San Diego (YES, we do have some low income neighborhoods).

Originally the intent was to go onto law school and practice civil rights law, but I'm entirely too burnt on school right now, that once I'm done, I think I'm done. I may change my mind later on, but as of right now, I'm focused on getting my BA and my teaching credentials.

I'm not real worried about getting a "high paying job". My partner has that! And no he's NOT a sugar daddy, he's just a very supportive person who, like me, isn't worried about material possessions.

Stop, thanks for your concern but we get along just fine...again thanks.

By the way, today is absolutely GORGEOUS!

----

As far as Latin is concerned, YIKES! I am absolutely HORRIBLE when it comes to foreign language. I had a hard enough time in Spanish. I got an A in both Spanish 1 & 2, but went credit/no credit for Spanish 3 because of the difficulty I experienced in Spanish 2. I can understand what is being said, but my problem is processing it in my mind when I'm speaking it. I know I just need to move down to Mexico for a year or so and I would have no problem but I don't really want to go down there. Besides that Bill wouldn't go, and I wouldn't split us up for long periods of time like that.; June 19, 2008 6:31 PM
stopOBAMAnow said...: "This (assuming you are correct on all these issues) would convert us over to your frame of thinking, and prevent Obama from becoming our next President. You should rethink your position."

Thanks for the comment.

1. To my taste, I don't want to major in Gov, Pol Sci etc. They can be minor specialization to go to the heart of the issues. Or one could learn those topics leisurely. One need NOT spend the prime youth to learn those matters, IMO.

2. My problem with Sen Obama is his lack of real experience in the National Govt. He said he has no aptitude to deal with the huge bureaucracies. He has zero credibility on National Security and Foreign Policy.

He has rhetorical eloquence and oratory, but very little substance. We don't know what "Change" HE CAN bring forth in Fed Govt!

His instinct to enlarge the role of Govt is against my view of "Small Efficient Truthful Govt" philosophy.

His tax and spend philosophy rather than fiscal responsibility and increase the value of the tax dollar is against the virtues of fiscal conservatives.

That's why I oppose him.

I believe the country has lots of resonance with my view on these issues (55% agree with me). We will see what happens in the Fall.

I believe that BHO will NOT get more EV than what Kerry got in 2004 (251 with lots of name recognition and experience).

Stay tuned.; June 19, 2008 6:32 PM
jean said...: tmess2
That is what I thought and perhaps I am misunderstanding what you wrote.
I do not know many small business
that invest their spare capital in speculative instruments. I do see them invest in growth, some Research and Development etc. They buy the building instead of rent and expand. The money is mostly put back into the company to expand. Through their expansion they hire more individuals and economic growth occurs. With Universal health care this will allow greater growth,expansion and wealth to smaller companies who previously could not compete.; June 19, 2008 6:38 PM
Independent Voter said...: stop, His tax and spend philosophy rather than fiscal responsibility and increase the value of the tax dollar is against the virtues of fiscal conservatives.

----

and WHO were you supporting?; June 19, 2008 6:39 PM
jean said...: Stop
Not everyone has your defined measurement of wealth.
Hey Independant
Today is Gorgeous!
jean; June 19, 2008 6:42 PM
stopOBAMAnow said...: BHO Supporters:

Your Candidate has changed his stand on

1. NAFTA
2. Public Financing of GE

in just a few months.

What say you all?

Of course, he believes he CAN buy the White House with his "BigMoneyBags" as Yam puts it. McCain spent the least and got the most in the Primary.

This is the big difference between BHO and McCain:

One has Money and the other has Message.

Money Vs Message. Good Fight!

Which one will survive and succeed?

I bet Message will triumph over the raw power of big money!!

Stay tuned.; June 19, 2008 6:45 PM
Independent Voter said...: WOW! Jean, I just looked and it is 67 right now. aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh! And the high today was 76. :); June 19, 2008 6:47 PM
jean said...: Independant,
Where do you live?
It is 90 in Vista right now.
The son is warming up for baseball and already drenched.
jean; June 19, 2008 6:50 PM
jean said...: Independant,
So that is what 7 miles inland will get you today.
jean; June 19, 2008 6:51 PM
Independent Voter said...: jean - I live in Banker's Hill/Hillcrest - right across the street from Balboa Park.

------
stop? Can't you answer a simple question?

Who are you supporting and who were you supporting before the primary was over? My guess is John McCain the ENTIRE time. There is NO WAY that you were EVER supporting Clinton because her and Obama's positions are 95% identical.

Anyone who is using your "logic" (again I'm using the word VERY LOOSELY) is NOT very bright. Over the past 7 1/2 years, the Republicans have not seen a spending bill they didn't like until 2006, and then all of the sudden they become "fiscally responsible". The Republicans in this country are NOT the Republicans of the "fiscal responsibility" kind. They cut taxes but spend like a Beverly Hills Housewife with an unlimited budget - but they are even more fiscally responsible than the Republicans.; June 19, 2008 6:57 PM
Independent Voter said...: Damn I really should learn to proof my blog posts. That should have been The Republicans in this country are NOT the Republicans of the "fiscal responsibile" kind. They cut taxes but spend like a Beverly Hills Housewife with an unlimited budget - but they are even more fiscally responsible than the Republicans.; June 19, 2008 7:00 PM
stopOBAMAnow said...: "Not everyone has your defined measurement of wealth."

jean:

I don't think I talked about wealth here.

______________________________

BTW, I know how to accumulate wealth:

Work hard, earn more, consume less, save and invest the rest. Over a long period of time, by the power of compounding, one COULD become wealthy! This makes sense to some one who WANTS to be wealthy.

Risk taking is another way of getting wealthy.

Very few people get the inherited wealth.

_____________________________

I favor a 23% Fair Tax on consumption (except Food, Medicine, Education and Home). This will abolish, according to Hucka, all forms of Fed Taxation including FICA.

This Consumption Tax will bring the same amount of total tax to the Federal Coffer, and will eliminate the basic unfairness of "taxing the rich and feeding the rest", which is very punitive and regressive.; June 19, 2008 7:03 PM
Independent Voter said...: jean, ugh. I just looked at weather.com for you it said it is 82 there in Vista with 45% humidity....that's what sucks...the humidity.

The humidity down here is 71% - ugh!; June 19, 2008 7:05 PM
jean said...: Stop
Yes you did.
Engineers and Doctors make 10x etc.
People can get much more than monetary reward from their jobs.
And since all these people in these fields are employed I guess they are needed.
It takes a mix in society to grow.
Without it you would just live in a plain white house.
jean; June 19, 2008 7:09 PM
jean said...: Independant,
I looked at the gage outside and it is 90. The weather channel is lying.
I am going to make some icepacks for my son's baseball game.
They like to eat the ice chips.; June 19, 2008 7:11 PM
Independent Voter said...: jean, LOL! Actually I don't necessarily think they are lying, I just think it depends on where in Vista they are registering the returns from. Not only that, in areas surrounding open fields like that tend to be hotter.; June 19, 2008 7:18 PM
Independent Voter said...: btw jean, tell him and his team to kick their butts. :); June 19, 2008 7:19 PM
apissedant said...: stop,
A teacher makes more than enough money to be one of two contributors to a successful and happy family. All I am saying is that if that's what you want, that is great. You made out like that was a terrible choice, why possibly pick a job that only allows this? I ask why is a boat, a third car, a mercedes necessary? That is all, just stating that 150k plus a year is not necessary, and many don't aim for that.; June 19, 2008 7:22 PM
jean said...: independant
I will. We are playing Carlsbad today and he is pitching 2 innings.
He has 4 games over the weekend and must be limited on how many innings he can pitch. What a pain in the butt.
Have a good one.
jean; June 19, 2008 7:22 PM
stopOBAMAnow said...: "Anyone who is using your "logic" (again I'm using the word VERY LOOSELY) is NOT very bright."

Again, you are just a student struggling to get your BA. You have a long long way to go to gain some real experience before you call others names!

You are like BHO - he talks a lot but does NOT have any experience in anything!

There is a world of difference between McCain and the Dubya's Republican Party of the past 7.5 y.

That's why:

Dubya has 28% approval rating

McCain has nearly 55% while Pelosi and Reid's Congress gets 18%!

There is a world of difference between Hillary and BHO. She is a Centrist for fiscal sanity and he is the FAR LEFT Bleeding Liberal.

Compare their taxing instincts!

I voted for Hillary, as my friend Yamaka did.

I want him to walk away from the Tax and Spend Liberal Ideologues!

My target audience is the Fiscal Conservatives who may be leaning Left, by mistake, like Yamaka is.; June 19, 2008 7:24 PM
stopOBAMAnow said...: "I ask why is a boat, a third car, a mercedes necessary? That is all, just stating that 150k plus a year is not necessary, and many don't aim for that."

Fine.

One buys boat, a third car etc because he/she CAN. One swims in private pool because he/she wants to and CAN. Their choice.

I guess my view is if there is a Fair TAX of 23% flat on every bodies consumption, rather than on income and savings I will NOT complain at all.

My concern is, the high income high productive people are saddled with very punitive regressive taxation while others are given all sorts of tax breaks because they are less productive and less working. This is unfair and unnecessary, IMO.

Vote for Fair Tax (of flat 23% or some %) on Consumption of ALL people. That's only fair, IMO.; June 19, 2008 7:34 PM
apissedant said...: stop,
Please go to fairtax.org. You have the percentage incorrect. It is 30%. It will take you awhile to find the correct percentage, but I guarantee you it is 30%. I have explained how they claim it is 23%, and do not feel the need to explain it again. I would rather you not continue spreading the lie.; June 19, 2008 7:35 PM
apissedant said...: Dave,
That's good, I'm happy for the two of you. My wife can't earn as much here, because the US doesn't recognize her degree. If I ever want to live in the US, I have to get a better paying job to support us. That's part of why I deviated from the teaching track. I also found several ways where I can earn as much while going to graduate school as I could make teaching.

tmess2,
I love your differentiation and explanation of investment. I think venture capitalism is great and when it pans out, should be rewarded with high income. I think trading futures, stocks, or bonds is just legalized gambling. The company does not change due to your investment, it is just buy low and sell high. I personally have little respect for accumulating wealth through this type. That is my personal opinion, I am sure not everyone agrees.; June 19, 2008 7:39 PM
ed iglehart said...: Richard,

Are you aware of Stanley Lombardo's translations of Homer, Hesiod and Sappho?

If not, may I recommend them to you and your students.

Stanley teaches classics at Univ Kansas, and also is a Zen master who has co-translated the best Tao Te Ching I've seen.

A taste

He obviously knows it's ORAL poetry.

Salaam, etc.
ed; June 19, 2008 7:52 PM
Kujo said...: stopobama = mccain = dolt = wimp on terrorism; June 19, 2008 7:52 PM
Independent Voter said...: stop, I have PLENTY of experience, and probably more than you do in the public sphere - meaning public service.

you said, McCain has nearly 55% while Pelosi and Reid's Congress gets 18%! You do realize McCain is a PART of that 18% Congressional approval rate right?

I want him to walk away from the Tax and Spend Liberal Ideologues! Then I guess you want him to walk AWAY from Hillary, thank for letting us know you don't want her ANYWHERE near the ticket.

My target audience is the Fiscal Conservatives who may be leaning Left, by mistake, like Yamaka is. HUH? How does someone "lean left" by mistake? I guess I can understand if you are DOLT, then that makes perfect sense that you and Yam think the same....oh that's right, that is your alter-ego. You know, they do have medication for that.; June 19, 2008 8:00 PM
Independent Voter said...: I guess my view is if there is a Fair TAX of 23% flat on every bodies consumption, rather than on income and savings I will NOT complain at all. Then I guess you disagree with Hillary.

My concern is, the high income high productive people are saddled with very punitive regressive taxation while others are given all sorts of tax breaks because they are less productive and less working. This is unfair and unnecessary, IMO.
WOW! That is the BIGGEST LOAD OF BULLSHIT that I have heard from a "Democrat" in a VERY LONG TIME! I guess the only "hard working productive" members of society are "high income" workers.

I guess teachers aren't hard working productive members of society. I guess construction working productive members of society.; June 19, 2008 8:06 PM
Independent Voter said...: stopobama = mccain = dolt = wimp on terrorism

There ya go Kujo!; June 19, 2008 8:06 PM
Independent Voter said...: Ya, I have a pretty great guy. What is your wife's degree in and why won't they recognize it?; June 19, 2008 8:08 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: With all the sadness and trauma going on in the world at the moment, it is worth reflecting on the death of a very important person, which almost went unnoticed last week.

Larry LaPrise, the man that wrote 'The Hokie Pokey' died peacefully at the age of 93. The most traumatic part for his family was getting him into the coffin. They put his left leg in. And then the trouble started.

Shut up. You know it's funny. ;o); June 19, 2008 8:36 PM
Independent Voter said...: LOL Emit; June 19, 2008 8:37 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: stopObamaNow-

Please go and read my post from June 18, 2008 3:21 PM and June 18, 2008 3:22 PM

and then we can talk about who the real flip-flopper is!

.; June 19, 2008 8:37 PM
Independent Voter said...: Leah, and then we can talk about who the real flip-flopper is!

---

Are you sure that you want to invite a discussion with that dolt?; June 19, 2008 8:48 PM
apissedant said...: stop.
Please stop continuing your publication of lies and misrepresentations. The tax is not 23%. McCain is part of that congress with an 18% approval rating. If you look individually, each individual congressman has a much higher rating than congress as a whole. Obama's is higher than McCain's. The lowest scores are all held by Republicans. They are still 40% and above for the most part.

I did not take a swipe at anyone for buying a third car or a boat. You took a swipe at those that chose professions that could not afford such a purchase. You can scroll up and read your own words if you would like. You took a very personal swipe at Dave over his choice of major, and his job choice. That was the swipe, mine was the defense of the swipe. I think it is necessary to get that straight.

You have taken swipes at Obama, at Pelosi, at poor people, and at Mike. I do not agree with those, but I can understand them. Dave has not been rude to anyone, so why you specifically insult him I don't understand. He chooses a profession that may not pay that well, but that is essential to our country. We need educated children. It does not matter who you are, you need them. If you are a wealthy businessman, you need educated people to work for you.; June 19, 2008 9:08 PM
apissedant said...: stop,
Now of course Dave is insulting you Stop, but you started it. Retaliation is ok, but the initiation is unnecessary.

Dave,
She is a social worker back in the Netherlands. She cares for adults with severe mental disabilities in an independent home. They're big on inclusion over there, so they make sure that they are still allowed to be apart of society. They are not really able to do most things for themselves, so they all live in a big group home. About 6 people rotate and take care of 13 of them. It is basically a 2 year vocational degree. We recognize bachelors degrees from other nations, but not vocational degrees apparently. In order for her to get a similar job here, she would have to go through two years of schooling again. Here, she can't even qualify as a certified nurse's assistant without more schooling, despite she has already had all of that schooling and then some.

I will actually have a bachelor's, so they will recognize my education over there, so it makes more sense to go there for now. After I finish my master's and my doctorate I would like to eventually come back here and take a swing at teaching college level and doing some research if possible. I'm keeping my finger's crossed that it works out, but it is quite obvious that the Netherlands will give me a more fair shake than America will give her. They don't even require me to learn Dutch, although I am hoping to learn it anyways out of respect, and just to better myself.; June 19, 2008 9:16 PM
Independent Voter said...: p'd ant - most of your post is accurate. I have been calling him a dolt lately. Simply because he doesn't use real logic in forming his "arguments". They are easily dismantled by proving his premises to be inaccurate which therefore nullifies his conclusion. I almost minored in philosophy, prior to my decision to getting my teaching credentials. I've taken 5 classes in philosophy and logic.; June 19, 2008 9:20 PM
Independent Voter said...: oops, I was writing that as you were writing your most recent post. LOL, sorry.; June 19, 2008 9:22 PM
apissedant said...: Dave,
I love that you keep using dolt. I almost called Mike in Md that, but I settled on imbecile. Just coincidental timing that amuses me.; June 19, 2008 9:24 PM
Independent Voter said...: p'd ant - that really sucks. Does she have any interest in going back to get her bachelors? I don't know what all is involved in getting a nursing degree, but would it be worth it going for another 2 years or however long it takes?; June 19, 2008 9:27 PM
Independent Voter said...: LOL p'd ant; June 19, 2008 9:28 PM
apissedant said...: Dave,
ugh, I don't know how you do that. I hated logic and philosophy. I thought it was easy, and I did well in the class, I just hated the class. Part of it may have been my prof., who kept saying that it was incorrect to question religion on logical or truth based reasoning. That and the correct answer to the question, "who is the greatest American philosopher?" was the guy that came up with the argument saying it was inappropriate to question religion.; June 19, 2008 9:31 PM
suzihussein22 said...: peeved ant-Have you learned this in chemistry yet?

http://tinyurl.com/62k9kj

I've started flipping through an old textbook called Parker's Philosophy.; June 19, 2008 9:58 PM
jean said...: Independant
We won. Son got no runs on him.
Poor guy now has to go to another practice at 7pm.
I must now mourn Larry LaPrise through an informal wake.
Emit I have not laughed that hard in a while.
jean; June 19, 2008 10:00 PM
Independent Voter said...: p'd ant - Dave,
ugh, I don't know how you do that. I hated logic and philosophy. I thought it was easy, and I did well in the class, I just hated the class. Part of it may have been my prof., who kept saying that it was incorrect to question religion on logical or truth based reasoning. That and the correct answer to the question, "who is the greatest American philosopher?" was the guy that came up with the argument saying it was inappropriate to question religion.

-------

LOL! I've been fortunate. I only had one philosophy class based on religion and it wasn't really religion per se, it was dissecting the logic used in religious texts. Most of the philosophy classes I took were based on creating arguments using deductive and inductive reasoning.; June 19, 2008 10:01 PM
Independent Voter said...: Jean - SWEET! Ugh, tell him to rest that arm :); June 19, 2008 10:02 PM
jean said...: Independant,
This is one night he won't mind the ice packs:); June 19, 2008 10:05 PM
apissedant said...: Dave,
No, she loves her job. She went back for a few courses and did well, but she is not a huge fan of school, and the finances just aren't there for both of us to be going to school. When we go to the Netherlands, I can continue my school, and get paid for it. She can get her old job back, which pays much better than what she was making here. Lastly, for 90 euros a month, we can get insurance that pays for everything. No copays. So financially it is a way better solution.

Here we have friends, but no family. My family lives in Michigan and Arizona. I am not huge on friends and spend most of my time online or reading by myself. She loves her family and her friends, and loves hanging out. So socially, I lose nothing and she gains a lot.

I'm also a little burnt out with the intolerance and closed mindedness of this country. During my three weeks there, everyone listened, everyone was respectful, and we had a lot of great conversations where people learned a lot about each other and their perspectives. Here, I have literally been punched in the face for having gay friends, or for not liking Bush in a military area. Most people don't listen. Everyone has their preconceived notions of what is right, and they ignore everyone and everything that disagrees with their preconceived notions.

I could use a break. An eye opening, intellectual, inspirational, educational break. You know what I mean?; June 19, 2008 10:12 PM
Independent Voter said...: I love this Daily Show.

Especially the first 40 seconds. "The first gay marriage took place in CA due to a CA Supreme Court ruling and yet, the state continues to exist. By the way, gay people are getting married in CA, so why is God taking it out on people in the mid-west?"

LMAO!; June 19, 2008 10:14 PM
Independent Voter said...: p'd ant - OH YA, I definitely understand what you mean about the break.

We have talked about moving, but Bill doesn't want to leave the states, but I would like to for a year or two. Of course he tells me to go ahead, but I don't want to go anywhere without him.

That's funny, I've been beat up for having straight friends. LOL...Just kidding!!!!!!!!!

I can also understand your wife not wanting to go back to school. Especially with my being in for 3 years and I'm really burnt. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would be a career student. I understand the desire to gain more knowledge. But you can gain knowledge without the formal education. I have actually made friends out of many of my professors. 5 of them I hang out with on a regular basis. One of them (former Philosophy prof.) has a party every 2-3 weeks, and boy do we have a blast. When I first invited Bill to go, he was real intimidated, but now he just jumps right into the conversation, or play beer pong with the rest of us....LOL.; June 19, 2008 10:26 PM
apissedant said...: soft,
No, lol, what the heck brought you to that book? I read about a page and a half, but the wifey is getting impatient. ;)

I'll read what you guys are writing now tomorrow, until then, goodnight! Have fun!; June 19, 2008 10:31 PM
apissedant said...: Dave,
that's funny, I went to a party with an education professor, Dr. Allen once. He was really cool. In the chem department, the grad students, a few of the professors, and a few of of us undergrads go bowling every now and again. I have a desk in an office, so I end up bugging them and learning all the time too. I had to fix my wedding ring awhile back because I chemically bonded it to some stuff and one of the professors helped me out.

The career students typically either were dirt poor before, and living on financial aid, or have rich parents paying their bills. They just party, and don't do our class load, or have to worry about money. My wife's brother was one. 8 years and no degree.

Ok, night, we'll talk later.; June 19, 2008 10:35 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Since the subject of changing the tax system has come up, here's a proposal I've been thinking about.

A great many people think that investing in corporations is great. To some extent, so do I.

Most small companies become larger when they create stocks that are traded on the market. No investors, no stock is sold, and the company either doesn't grow, or it dies.

However, when someone invests in a small company, they do it for long-term gain, not short-term, as it almost always takes time for the company to start turning a profit on it's growth.

Someone who invests in an already established company usually doesn't see dramatic gains in that stock unless the company comes up with a new product or new way to do things. Then the stock price jumps, but that price jump is based on anticipated profits, not immediate profits.

Then we have the day traders, those who buy early in the morning, hope the price goes up a point or two during the day, thus they earn a per cent or two profit, but sometimes more.

Now to the tax question: When someone holds their stock purchase for a short time (less than a year), are they really investing in the company, or are they investing only for personal profit? In almost all cases, it is the latter, thus they are not really helping society gain economically. Tax them HARD - 60% or more. If they are investing to help the company, and themselves, over the midterm (say more than one year, less than three), tax them at a somewhat lower rate - say 2/3 of the highest rate. If they hold the stock for a longer term (more than three years, less than 10), tax them at a lower rate - say 1/3 of the highest rate. If they are in it for long term, ten years or more, then they get a minimal tax (less than 10%) or no tax at all.

This would lead to a couple of advantages:

There would be less incentive to churn the market, thus making the market more stable and more reflective of the long term prospects for profit/loss of the company over a much longer period of time than just the next fiscal year or even quarter;

The stock holders would be more likely to support the company investing in projects that might mean low profits in the near term, but have the promise of long-term gains. Companies might be more interested in investing in things like green energy; high temperature super-conductivity; better battery storage that could lead to electric vehicles competing with fossil fuel vehicles; etc.

It would be a radical change in the way the stock market operates and initial turmoil. But it could also bring a lot of long term stability to the market.

Mike; June 19, 2008 11:34 PM
justin said...: I didn't mean to post and run last night, my cable modem went out, so I went to sleep.

Regarding nuclear waste and fear, I admit the fear is easy to buy into. I looked at the Oak ridge cancer data. The Agency of toxic substances and disease registry did a study of 42 cancer types in the eight counties surrounding Oak Ridge from '91 to 2000.

The data can be turned to most any conclusion. For instance, promotion of fear: in Knox county alone, there was a slight increase in women with breast, colon, uterine, or lung cancer, and men with colon, lung, melanoma, non-hodgkins lymphoma, prostate, or soft tissue cancers. Wow, quite a list.

But...the increase is only slight and the lower end of the range of effect (ratio of observed to expected) includes 1.0, which means no change from expected.

If you want to be reassured, then look at Roane county, where women were slightly less likely to develop breast, colon, or non-hodgkins lymphoma, and significantly less likely to develop pancreatic cancer, while men had significantly less chance of getting prostate cancer or melanoma.

Picking the data, any conclusion can be had. Looking at the total picture, some cancers were up, some down, and no pattern of increased risk emerged.

I think the fear of waste is like most fears, not easily shaken, and sometimes not based on evidence.; June 19, 2008 11:59 PM
justin said...: I agree though, that nuclear power is not a near term fix to break the carbon addiction. Still, it seems like a step.

Just as wind, solar, and geothermal have potential, but none are quick fixes. Less emmisions and more independence from foreign oil will take some time. Let's start the clock.; June 20, 2008 12:04 AM
apissedant said...: justin,
agreed.

mike,
Anytime money earned that was not worked for, (sometimes called unearned income) is taxed less than income by someone who works hard to earn their money, I see a major problem. The same tax rate I can live with, a lower tax rate is disgusting.

It has the effect of saying that the money earned by a man breaking his back, working 60 hours a week on a high beam, is less important and less productive than the money earned by a guy that simply clicked a mouse on a computer ten years ago. That is a serious problem. That was of course my major problem with Bush lowering the tax on dividends, as well as the rampant talk about getting rid of the estate tax.

Money earned by labor should be the most respected income. That labor, whether it is in a court room, a hospital, or a factory, produced something. There is a real, tangible substance created from this work. It involved time and work by he or she who earned it.

Goodnight... look forward to reading more tomorrow.; June 20, 2008 12:12 AM
apissedant said...: justin,
agreed again.; June 20, 2008 12:12 AM
Richard said...: Jean - I grew up in Vermont and went to a public High School where I had four years of Latin. I believe at least half of Vermont high schools have Latin programs.

Ed - I am aware of Lombardo's translations and have investigated them, but I prefer the verse translation of Robert Fitzgerald. Fitzgerald is, like Lombardo, a poet in his own right (as any translator of poetry needs to be). Different strokes for different folks. I try to expose the boys to a variety of translations, ranging from Dreyden to *shudders* Fagles.

Independent Voter - you might be surprised at how well you would do in Latin. It's primarily taught as a written language, and it requires very different skills from Spanish. That's why it makes a great alternative language for some students who struggle in modern foreign languages.

Oh, and didn't you know god has terrible aim? That's why he killed 100,000 Indonesians to take out touring homosexuals from Sweden.; June 20, 2008 12:50 AM
Independent Voter said...: Oh, and didn't you know god has terrible aim? That's why he killed 100,000 Indonesians to take out touring homosexuals from Sweden.

LOL! Yep he really does have horrible aim. Unreal - is that the organization of the "minister" who pickets Iraq soldiers' funerals?

As far as the preacher who was imprisoned, I personally disagree with him imprisonment. Believe it or not, I do believe in freedom of religion and, but at the same time I don't think we are getting the whole story in that "newsletter". I'm sure there was more to it than just "offending" people.; June 20, 2008 1:16 AM
Independent Voter said...: WOW! I had no idea it was getting so late. I've been doing some work for my online classes and totally lost track of time. I'm headed to bed. Goodnight everyone and chat with you all later.; June 20, 2008 1:40 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Regarding the double rainbow that was outside of the Kennedy Center after Tim Russerts memorial... I found this on another board:

"As a native Hawaiian we grew up knowing that a rainbow over an event meant that it was bringing God's special blessing to the occasion be it a funeral, a wedding or the birth of a child. The double rainbow would have been for royalty and Tim was royalty among his fellow journalists. That double rainbow signifies his blessings from heaven for his family, friends and co-workers."

How about that!

And here is the link again to the last song played at the memorial (IZ the singer died at age 38).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PL-uL2M3xvM

.; June 20, 2008 2:30 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: The video is better on the other link ... the sound is better on this one:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pe5p1BXNCQM

.; June 20, 2008 2:38 AM
jpsedona said...: Mike in MD,

In your post about taxing short term gains at a much higher rate, your conclusion was that "Companies might be more interested in investing in things like green energy; high temperature super-conductivity; better battery storage that could lead to electric vehicles competing with fossil fuel vehicles".

I believe that a multi-year capital tax rate would dry up the market for many smaller public companies.

As an investor, one takes risks in the market. If you invest your savings (assuming you earned the money), those monies were taxed already. When you buy stock, YOU are paying the corporate tax through lower earnings (diluting your gains). When you sell the stock, you end up taxing gains again.

If you increase tax rates on investing, would you go with risk or safety? If you invest in a smaller company, your risk would increase significantly. If the company takes a downturn (Airline stocks anyone?), then selling your holdings to hold onto any gains would penalize you for taking those risks.

People will play it safe. The net effect will be exactly the opposite of what you intend; there will be less invested into newer companies and corporations will play it safe.; June 20, 2008 9:32 AM
Richard said...: Yes, that's the Westboro Baptist Church. One of their latest claims is that God killed Tim Russert and "consign[ed] him forthwith to Hell" (video). Oh, and he killed those four poor boy scouts in retaliation for Nebraska's attempts to silence the WBC.; June 20, 2008 9:32 AM
jpsedona said...: apiss,

Your socialist agenda continues...

you said: "Anytime money earned that was not worked for, (sometimes called unearned income) is taxed less than income by someone who works hard to earn their money, I see a major problem. The same tax rate I can live with, a lower tax rate is disgusting."

If I worked hard and saved money, and then invest after tax income into the stock market (or even a savings account or CD), why should I be taxed over & over? I lose income from taxes paid by a corporation; then I get hit again on any dividends, and again when I sell the stock. Why should my hard earned income that I invest be taxed at a higher rate, over & over again?

ps: you continue to mistate the "fair tax". But dealing with facts appears to be part of what you found difficult in your logic coursework.; June 20, 2008 9:43 AM
jean said...: Good Morning Richard
I remember that Latin was taught at my high school also and that was back in Ohio. I was to much of a chicken to take it.
Unfortunatly with the cut backs in education it is nomore.
My kids go to the largest high school in San Diego. It is so over crowded they are in trailers for classrooms. If parents stay on top of it they can get a good education, if not, it is easy to get lost in the cracks.
jean; June 20, 2008 10:00 AM
apissedant said...: jpsedona,
Please, explain to me how I have mistated the fairtax. All I said is that it is a 30% sales tax, which it is. Check the website. Apparently you are unable to read and only useful for throwing lame, baseless insults. Good luck with how that works out.

We all get, double, triple, and quadruple taxed, live with it. Every dollar that is circulated has already been taxed dozens of times. Income a worker makes from a corporation is already taxed. The corporation paid taxes, they may have paid import taxes on raw materials, and then at the end, the person pays personal income taxes. They pay state, federal, local, property, and sales tax.
I get taxed on every dollar I earn, why should the money you earn, (while not actually working) not be taxed?

Of course it is pointless to even respond to you. You continually state that I am incorrect on the fairtax percentage, yet have yet to show one shred of proof. You have not even checked the percentage I'm sure. I've actually read the website, and been to a seminar on it, but why trust me... just because I read the material and heard it straight from the horse's mouth.; June 20, 2008 10:16 AM
Richard said...: Jean, I imagine your geographic location could have something to do with the predominance of Spanish as a foreign language. Do you know if the school district offers any other modern foreign languages?; June 20, 2008 10:17 AM
apissedant said...: http://www.fairtax.org/site/News2?news_iv_ctrl=1541&page=NewsArticle&id=8248

Wow, I can read... can you? From fairtax's own website.; June 20, 2008 10:30 AM
apissedant said...: richard,
I went to school in the suburbs of Detroit, and our public schools offered German, Spanish, or French. Spanish had the most sections and most people took Spanish. We also didn't start a foreign language until the second half of our eighth grade year. Definitely no latin offered.; June 20, 2008 10:33 AM
Independent Voter said...: richard,

Thanks for the info on Latin, I may have to revisit the idea of expanding my horizons and look into taking a few Latin classes.

Yes, geography has a lot to do with Spanish being pushed so hard in the schools here. I'm not sure about high schools, but at the collegiate level here we still have many different languages. They usually offer at the minimum Russian, French, German, ASL (very cool by the way), Arabic, Italian, Japanese, and Chinese. I'm sure there are more, but not sure of the rest.; June 20, 2008 10:39 AM
jean said...: richard,
The lanquages that are offered are Spanish,French and German.
UC requirements are 2 years and they like to see 3 years.
jean; June 20, 2008 10:41 AM
apissedant said...: jpsedona,
It is also amusing that you are worried about paying tax on your investment income, but you think the interest earned by social security investments should all be used towards paying the national debt. So we should all pay 100% tax on our investment income, and you should pay 0 on your investment income. NICE. Of course you will also be paying 100% interest on your social security investment income, but since it only operates on the first 90,000... most wealthy people won't mind too much. A 13,000 investment in social security is no match for 100,000 in stock investments.; June 20, 2008 10:42 AM
Independent Voter said...: I went to school in the suburbs of Detroit, and our public schools offered German, Spanish, or French. Spanish had the most sections and most people took Spanish. We also didn't start a foreign language until the second half of our eighth grade year. Definitely no latin offered.

---

This is the problem that I see happening. We (American citizens) are being taught foreign language too late into our education. At least that was/is the case for me. I had never taken a foreign language until I got to college. Even growing up in AZ, it wasn't a requirement for me to graduate from high school. According to my niece, foreign language is a requirement now, but it didn't use to be.; June 20, 2008 10:47 AM
Independent Voter said...: jean, the 2 - 3 years I think usually depends on the major (at least in UC schools). Or are you talking that's what they like to see for admission?; June 20, 2008 10:49 AM
Richard said...: jpsedona & apissedant - it's easy to hurl insults back and forth, but how about trying to find a simple way of describing your differences? I will try.

I think it is fair to say that most people think of a sales tax rate as being the percentage which will be added to every purchase they make. That is certainly how I conceive it, and it is how it will show up on receipts. If that is the case, then the tax rate proposed in HR 25/S 1025 which FairTax.org promotes is a 29.87% sales tax: If you buy $100 worth of merchandise, you will be charged $129.87.

What FairTax.org does is calculates the tax as a percentage of the total purchase price. So if I spend $129.87 and $29.87 of that is tax, they say I am paying 23% tax.

This is not an invalid way of talking about taxes, and it is useful in comparing the total tax burden someone would pay under a VAT to what s/he currently pays under income taxes. But it does not jibe with the way most people understand sales tax rates. This is why apissedant feels it is misleading.

To summarize: under the Fair Tax, people would pay approximately 23% of their income in federal taxes. The tax rate s/he would see on his/her receipt would actually be 29.87%.; June 20, 2008 10:50 AM
jpsedona said...: Apiss,

Explaining anything to an inexperienced socialist like yourself is a waste of electrons. You are of an obvious welfare mindest and favore a redistribution of wealth from those who worked hard and were able to get ahead to those less fortunate, disadvantaged or just plain lazy.; June 20, 2008 10:52 AM
jean said...: Independant,
For admission.
by the way
It was 95 yesterday,broke the record, and it will be over 100 today.
YUCK; June 20, 2008 10:57 AM
apissedant said...: richard,
I would first point out, that the first insult was not hurled by myself.
I would second point out, that I described that exactly, the difference between inclusive and exclusive about a week or so ago. He called me a liar and said I have problems with facts.

He did the same when we debated over how much our nation spend on interest on the national debt. He claims about 260 billion a year, I claim over 400 billion a year. His number requires that you deduct the "interest income" earned by the money currently sitting in social security. Since that money is supposed to be applied to future social security payments, it is wrong to subtract it from the national debt.
We had a similar disagreement about the cost of the war on terror. I included all military and war related costs, while he claimed only the number originally offered in the federal budget that was approved. Not even the extra 160 billion that is currently being approved. He called me a liar, and I explained that I was reporting, "all costs", not just a limited number that he was attempting to explain.

I tried logical discussion, he continued hurling insults, I responded in kind.; June 20, 2008 11:09 AM
Richard said...: Don't get me wrong, I am glad to see policy discussion...I just wish it could remain more civil.; June 20, 2008 11:20 AM
apissedant said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 20, 2008 11:20 AM
Richard said...: OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA '08; June 20, 2008 11:20 AM
apissedant said...: sales tax
–noun
a tax on receipts from sales, usually added to the selling price by the seller.; June 20, 2008 11:24 AM
apissedant said...: richard,
Sorry, stole the first post from the OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA chant.; June 20, 2008 11:25 AM
Independent Voter said...: Jean - YUCK is right! It's still supposed to just be in the 70's down here today...LOL! Sorry had to rub it in. hehehehehehe; June 20, 2008 11:27 AM
Independent Voter said...: Sorry, stole the first post from the OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA chant.

There you go, being a selfish blogger p'd ant....LOL....JUST KIDDING!; June 20, 2008 11:28 AM
Richard said...: And I was camped out there for 10 minutes, too! I was sure the time it would take to copy-paste that would be safe.; June 20, 2008 11:30 AM
Independent Voter said...: WOW! A new poll today shows Obama & McCain TIED in Georgia....44 and 43 respectively. Barr is pulling 6% and 7% undecided!

Excellent news!!!!!; June 20, 2008 11:30 AM
apissedant said...: jpsedona,
We have enough Republican trolls here, and we have several that will actually debate, and hold an intelligent, respectful conversation. We don't need one that ignores all facts and hurls insults. Sales tax is an exclusive tax. It is levied after a purchase is made, and that is how the computer actually calculates the percentage. The percentage that the computer will apply is 30%. When people are told it is 23%, they assume for a 1 dollar good, they will pay 23 cents in tax. This is intentionally misleading.

I can also say, that for someone earning 50,000 in income, they will likely pay between 4 and 6 thousand dollars to the IRS. Under fairtax, they will pay 11,500 dollars in tax to the IRS. This is a tax increase on the middle class, despite how it is phrased.

Both of my sister's own their own businesses, and my father is a lawyer. My family is doing quite well. We realize that it is the tax system and government programs that have allowed us to get where we are. We like where we are, and we would like others to have the same opportunity of achieving these goals. Placing substantial burdens on the poor and middle class would severely hinder their ability to grow to where we are at. Now that my family members have achieved their goals, they do not want to close the doors and prevent anyone else from rising out of their current class.
My sister also realizes that most of their customers are either lower, or middle class. In order for their business to continue thriving, they need their customers to be well taken care of. If their customers are unduly burdened by a Republican tax system, they will lose them, and actually make less money, despite paying lower taxes. Common sense dictates that the greatest profit is what a business shoots for, and so they support the current system.; June 20, 2008 11:34 AM
apissedant said...: Dave,
I can't be a selfish prick! I'm a socialist determined to redistribute wealth equally silly! Did you miss the big news? I didn't even know myself, so I can understand the confusion, but I was informed and now I understand.

Good news on Georgia. We really might see a 1992 style victory. That would be outstanding, as long as Democrats don't lose the Senate and House in 2014.; June 20, 2008 11:36 AM
Independent Voter said...: LOL p'd ant - you damn socialist....er I'll take it a step further...damn commie....LOL.....AGAIN JUST KIDDING!

Good news on Georgia. We really might see a 1992 style victory. That would be outstanding, as long as Democrats don't lose the Senate and House in 2014.

Don't you mean 2010 though? Because it was 94 when Dems lost control of Congress.; June 20, 2008 11:51 AM
apissedant said...: Income tax is a percentage of your income that is taken away. It is therefore inclusive, and reported as such.

Sales tax is a tax added to the cost of something. It is therefore exclusive, and reported as such.

This is basic English. I realize it makes the two difficult to compare, and makes sales tax appear higher than it should, but that's the English language.
Considering the attempt to say it is a tax decrease on middle class workers, based off the marginal tax rate instead of the actual taxes they pay... it is quite obvious what they are attempting to do. Also, the prebate they offer is 2300 dollars, in order to cover the taxes on 10,000 in income. By their own math, this prebate should be 3,000. There is no defense for this. It is intentionally misleading and wrong.; June 20, 2008 11:52 AM
Independent Voter said...: Good for you for deleting it so that the Obama chant could be on top! :)

Ok, I take back the commie comment. LOL; June 20, 2008 11:52 AM

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