Democratic Convention Watch: Open Thread

Tuesday, April 01, 2008

Open Thread

WE'VE MOVED! Democratic Convention Watch is now at http://www.DemocraticConventionWatch.com

What is McCain's latest "senior moment", what does Obama need to do to win in November or whatever else is on your mind.

And please be excellent to one another. We do not accept name calling or any attacks on our commenters. Any objectionable comments will be deleted. Try to be civil.

Thanks!

Previous Open Thread is here

9481 comments:

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Mike-in-GA said...: Jean - I agree! I'm sure GA will need some of that money also if a runoff election is required. It will be hard for us to win unless we get major support from the African-American community. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the incumbent (Sen Chambliss) will go down.; November 06, 2008 2:48 PM
RobH said...: AF&O:

Great story about the flag. Is that light bulb a compact flourescent if you're going to leave it on all night ? ;)

Jean,

I hear you about Palin. I almost think she has to try to get to DC as Stephens replacement, because if she doesn't, she's done. What's she gonna do, go back to Alaska but still be relevant nationally? No way.

Here's a specific prediction from me, let's check in a few months and see how I did:

I believe her descent to national irrelevance will be stunningly swift. Reading today about the Repub party's need to find their way and re-establish their own relevance precludes a space for her. The right's "intelligencia", who are the ones who will chart that course, have written her off. She is the champion of a vocal, but dwindling, constituency that needs division and confrontation to even be visible. We won't have that post-election.

As precendent I cite the PUMAs. In June, their presence was "certain to doom the Dems". Three months later - irrelevant in the face of unity.

I read about Palin today and say "so what." I wouldn't be surprised if she falls from our conciousness within WEEKS.; November 06, 2008 2:50 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Rob

(sorry about the 'Rog' in that earlier post - bad typo I didn't catch):

Does Maryland show 100% of precincts reporting? If so, it is correct, but incorrect.

Does Maryland show 78.5% of precincts reporting? If so, it is incorrect, but correct.

Like I posted earlier, there are still a minimum of 25,539 absentee ballots to be counted, and an unknown number of provisional ballots to be counted, in the Maryland 1st Congressional District. The precincts HAVE reported, and the absentee ballots and provisional ballots won't affect who won the Presidential race, but those votes eventually will be added to the Presidential race totals for the state. They would NOT normally have been counted, except they are instrumental in determining who wins the Congressional race. Since they will be counted for the Congressional race, all other races on the ballots will also be counted.

Presume that only 461 challenged ballots were cast in the Maryland 1st, that means at least 26,000 ballots were cast, but not counted in the vote counts that have been reported in that district alone. That means up to 26,000 (or probably more) additional votes will be added to Maryland's total Presidential vote total.

Maryland has 8 Congressional districts. Let's presume there are an average of 25,000 absentee, challenged and provisional ballots cast in each. There could be 200,000 ballots cast but not counted in Maryland alone. Those ballots would not be reflected in the Presidential vote count, even though the votes were cast.

In some states, with high military populations, some districts may have 35,000 to 50,000 uncounted absentee ballots. Those ballots won't be counted unless they are needed to determine a race.

New voters are disproportionally represented in the number of challenged and/or provisional ballots. Any state with large numbers of such voters will not count those ballots unless counting them would affect the outcome of any race. Again, votes cast, but not counted, and not reflected on the reported 'votes cast in a state' that the AP is reporting for total vote count.

If the average of absentee, challenged and/or provisional ballots in each Congressional district across the US is 10,000 (probably a low figure), that is (nationwide) 4,350,000 "uncounted" ballots, or about half of the 'missing' ballots you are looking for.

I am not making a 'supposition[] that maybe 133M voters "turned out" '. You made that supposition.

I'm just stating what factors I know that could cause the voter turn-out not add up to the reported total votes cast, by whatever means, and why some of those votes cast won't show up in any 'total votes'. It is a rare situation when the 'votes cast' is exactly the same as 'votes counted' in a particular race.

Mike; November 06, 2008 3:05 PM
jean said...: mike-in-ga,
I really feel that the Obama campaign has thought this out.
The #1 priority after getting elected is to be able to pass legislation to achieve the goal of progress on issues.
Why else do you want to be president than to achieve your goals AND that is what you are elected for:)

robh,
I think Palin will try and then cry the DEMS are against me.
We know she will not try to follow law or anything:)
The next few months may be just as interesting as the last 2 years.
I really think that this is not over by a longshot(from a helicopter).
I do not think the DEVA will go quietly out of the spotlight.

jean; November 06, 2008 3:07 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Email that was sent to several prominent pollsters:

Subject: Matchups for the 2012 Presidential Election

Verbatim email:

Marist College Institute for Public Opinion
Poughkeepsie, NY 12601 Phone 845.575.5050 Fax 845.575.5111 www.maristpoll.marist.edu

Battle for the White House:

Matchups for the 2012 Presidential Election

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Thursday, November 6, 2008

Did you really open this email?!
Haven't you had enough?!

You'll be hearing from us soon...but, not this soon.

Best wishes,
Your friends at The Marist Poll

Thank you.

VBG

Mike; November 06, 2008 3:09 PM
apissedant said...: Well, anyone that watched MSNBC last night heard the pronouncement.... THE BRADLEY EFFECT IS DEAD. If IF IF it ever existed... Over 100 million American voters proved it doesn't exist anymore. Obama performed just as well as the polls predicted. He was well within the margin of error, and outperformed many polls, both nationally and in localities.

I TOLD YOU SO RACISTS!; November 06, 2008 3:09 PM
apissedant said...: Yes, I did say over 100 million, because the voters that said they wouldn't vote for him, didn't, the voters that said they would vote for him, did. No racist effect going on at all.

Racists that won't vote for a black man... find some other reason to say they won't vote for him, but they never say they will. Most racists I know are unapologetic, and straight out said they wouldn't vote for him because he was black.

Racism is not dead, and probably never will be, but its influence is definitely on the decline. :); November 06, 2008 3:13 PM
RobH said...: Mike/Md,

Thanks for spelling that out. I get what your're saying, and now see how the magnitude of that activity WOULD be consequential enough to explain a big piece of the diff.

I gues it will manifest itself in report totals as either a) some states that reported 99% will see vote creep upward with the 99%, and/or b) states that have reported 100% will still see bote increases.

I'm most interested in what the final tally will be, but of course we won't know 'til all are certified.

Thanks for talking me down.

(And I wan't trying to put word in your mouth re a supposition of 133M, I should have said "some total".); November 06, 2008 3:38 PM
jean said...: Wow,
Oil is almost at $60 and Dow is down 450.; November 06, 2008 3:38 PM
Doc Pickles said...: North Carolina!
Yes!; November 06, 2008 3:45 PM
Joshua said...: RobH,
As my light bulbs burn out I replace them with compact fluorescent light bulbs. Unfortunately the outdoor light for Old Glory is a tungsten 120 watt light bulb.; November 06, 2008 3:53 PM
Kujo said...: Mike-In-Ga

I had to smile when I read your comment. Maybe you can think of what I said in defending you in response to defending some other voters who showed up a day late.

:)

I actually showed up a day late for a flight before... so it can happen.

Truthfully Mike I admire someone like yourself who has enough sense to say I made a mistake and correct the situation instead of defending previous decisions by making more bad decisions.

In order for us to have concrete conversations about the issues, we need people that can be open to listening, speaking out on both sides of issues with relative information, and potentialy admiting that the other side has good ideas too.

As I said to AJ before, you have been tested and you have won while many of us, like myself, have not been tested.

I often challenge myself to find a Republican that I would like to vote for. I don't want to think of myself as a Democrat, but as someone who votes on issues.; November 06, 2008 3:55 PM
RobH said...: Mike/Md, again,

Independent confirmation. Vote totals for CO and VA just went up 200K in each state, while precincts reported stayed unchanged at 99%.

So we'll continue to see vote creep and my proportionality method is flawed.

Ultimatelyll be interested to see how many votes 133M in turnout translates to. I'll have to wait.; November 06, 2008 3:56 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: Kujo - thanks for the words! Two major things happened in my life that made me relook my positions and ideaology. First I retired about 16 months ago and started looking at economics from someone who was now on a reduced fixed income. Having to live on a budget forces you to open your eyes and not just blow things off like I did when I was making $180K per year. Second thing that opened my eyes was Barack Obama's Philadelphia speech on race. It touched me like no one before except JFK. I have seen extreme politics in the Republican and Democrat parties. I vowed after that speech that I would look at both sides of an issue before I jumped to make a stupid decision. That is why I try to moderate some of the politics I hear - even here on DCW. If we believe in the spirit of what Barack is saying - it requires all of us to listen and think before we make a decision or open our mouths. This site and the regulars who post here, have helped me alot when it comes to listening and trying to "really" hear both sides of an issue. Ultimately I make my own decisions, but at least now I listen before engaging my mouth. Your posts have been very interesting - keep it up and we will all benefit.; November 06, 2008 4:13 PM
jean said...: mike-in-ga,
What did you think of Lieberman's comments?
It does not sound like he liked the meeting.
jean; November 06, 2008 4:17 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: Jean - if I read the "tea leaves" right - I expect that he is going to lose his chairmanship at a minimum. I don't think he will go as far as joining the Republican caucus. It would be political suicide in Connecticut. We will have to wait and see how it plays out. Except for his misguided role in the McCain campaign - he has been a pretty solid Democrat. I believe he let his extremely strong friendship and support for McCain cloud his judgement. I know alot of Democrats are really pissed at him - but they should not forget he is much the same as he was when he ran as the Democratic VP candidate in 2000. The one thing that I hated most of all with the Republican Party was how vindictive, self serving, and politically extreme they had become. I really hope that my new party does not follow that same stupid path now that we have won the election. As I've said many times - in my opinion - that is not what Barack would want us to do. The thing that will make him a truly great president is if he can bring the different factions together and get them working for the good of the country. Sheesh - I guess I better get off of my soapbox now or I will sound like a preacher instead of a retired old fart.:); November 06, 2008 4:33 PM
jean said...: mike-in-ga,
Thank you for that post.

I agree and with your perceptions of what you think Obama wants; I agree.

What makes me mad is the Repubs and some, Boehner, who puts things in writing even when it is not confirmed.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/06/obama-names-emanuel-chief-of-staff/

Obama is looking to put many Repubs in cabinet positions and is talking about it openly.

What does Boehner think when he does this?
I guess we know why the Repubs lost.

Please make note that I do not use derog comments for Republicans and never have. To give a open hand there needs to be one there to recieve it.

jean; November 06, 2008 4:58 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: Jean - For those that don't know - Boehner has been a Republican hack for a long time. I guess he feels nervous that if Barack succeeds - he will lose his so-called power. The more he and others in the Republican party do this - the farther down the party will fall. He better be careful Barack might get a pitbull call it "Lipstick" and train it to do what "Barney the attack dog" did to a reporter today.;); November 06, 2008 5:07 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: A thought-provoking editorial cartoon from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution:

'Day One'
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/62332

Mike; November 06, 2008 6:00 PM
Karen Anne said...: iv, About Prop. 8 funds, I am embarrassed to say that donating never crossed my mind, because I wasn't aware of the financial Prop 8 situation.

Maybe next time there could be posts about donating on the various blogs. I am sure people would donate.

pumas - I am not sure how many genuine pumas there were, and how many were Repubs in disguise trying to whip people up.

It will be interesting to see if Obama's campaign ends in the red or the black. I still don't know what he can legally do with left over funds.

I have swapped out most all my incandescents rather than waiting for them to burn out, the energy savings with cfls is so large it's worth tossing a regular light bulb that doesn't have hazardous waste problems. Between that and some stuff like not turning on lights unless I really need them, I cut my electric bill by a third.; November 06, 2008 6:57 PM
RobH said...: Here's a link to an eye-opening map available at NYTimes today:

http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/results/president/map.html

If you go to this link, click the box on the left side called "voting shifts." It takes you to a map which shows, by county, changes in voter preference between 2004 and 2008. The darker the blue, the greater percentage swing towards the Dems, and vice versa. It's stunning:

Couple things jump out:

1) Barack's "appalacian problem."
2) McCain's impact on Arizona, and consider if he wasn't the ticket.
3) Adjust the slider on the left to look at other years (i.e. '96 to '08)

But mostly...isn't suzihussein from Tennessee?? Holy smokes, girl, how do you survive. WE FEEL YOUR PAIN! You may be my new hero.; November 06, 2008 7:10 PM
RobH said...: Leah,

(and Rich/Richard and Oh Canada)

Today Nate Silver at fivethirtyeight.com reported a story out of the Omaha World-Herald, to the effect that the 15,000 early and provisional ballots yet to be counted from Douglas County will likely result in the EV for NE-02 going to Obama.

The final EV total is likely to be 365. I was going to say "there are no winners" but that's absurd, we're all winners.

word ver = dougogr. My friend Doug won't like that.

PS commenters on fivethirtyeight.com often reveal their word verification, and make up a new definition for the word. Sort of like "Sniglets" if anyone remenbers from the ancient days of SNL. Example: "susit" = the word I use to tell someone to trun off their cell phone in the theater.); November 06, 2008 7:33 PM
tmess2 said...: Need to correct some things that I have seen posted on here regarding vote counts, absentee ballots, and provisional ballots.

At the present time, all that is reported are unofficial counts. These are not the final counts.

In each state, there is a deadline for each election authority (registrar of voters, election commission, etc.) to certify the results of the election. The certification process involves a verification of the vote from election day (typically a count of a sample number of precincts) and a determination of the validity of absentee and provisional ballots and a count of all valid absentee and provisional ballots.

A final official result is determined only after all of the jurisdictions have certified their offical results to the state election authority and those numbers have been added together.

The reason that some "close" races have been projected by the media is that provisional and absentee ballots normally do not change races by a significant percent.; November 06, 2008 7:49 PM
tmess2 said...: If Obama has any funds remaining, they can be used for the 2012 race, given to another political committee, or given to charity.; November 06, 2008 7:51 PM
Kujo said...: Mike-In-Ga and Everyone,

Though I don't want to be older.... I do envy people who lived to hear JFK. To listen to FDR....

In my youth - adult life time we have not had a president that I feel has stepped up to the plate of greatness like JFK and FDR.

Obama surely has potential. I know it is early but I like the way so far he is handling the transition. He is comming off as being someone who now is not about to take sh!t from anyone. He is going to be on a missing and he knows he is on the right cause. He is also smart enough to listen to the right people, become educated and attack the problem.

I hear some Republicans complaining about Emanual because the do not see him as someone who reaches accross the aisle.

But the Chief of staff is not someone who determine policy. He is someone who see's that the jobs that need to get done, will get done. So someone who takes not Sh!t from anyone is probably the right guy.

By chosing Emanual, Obama realy makes a strong statement. He is saying to congress that he has serious priorities that he plans on getting done, ASAP. He will use his mandate CHANGE the way things are done, period!; November 06, 2008 9:56 PM
suzihussein22 said...: robh-Feel it, baby, feel it! LOL! This is a beautiful state and I am an original TN girl. My roots can be traced directly to the first permanent settlers of this state. Family legend has it that we tried to help keep peace with the Native Americans. There are artifacts scattered in varius museums across the state. Just don't call me a relic yet. :)

m in md-We loved the peom, VBG.; November 06, 2008 10:16 PM
suzihussein22 said...: m in ga-I don't remember a lot of your background when you first started posting, but appreciate your input. When it comes to some issues, I'm really going to butt heads, but that's okay. I am also really good at seeing both sides, if I do say so myself.

ka-Every once in a while, it won't have a word to verify for me either. I either click on the x or hit submit and one will pop up.

I saw a bumper sticker this morning that referred to how many days left until dubya leaves office, lol.; November 06, 2008 10:25 PM
Beryl said...: "Racism is not dead, and probably never will be, but its influence is definitely on the decline. :)"

Racism still exists but I think (and hope) it will become more and more socially unacceptable.

Folks, I'm still on cloud 9 about the Obama win and laughing my rear off about the information coming out about Palin. I know it is not right to laugh at her ignorance but it is funny.

-- Greeted reporters only wearing a towel and another on her head?
-- Thought Africa is a country?
-- Didn't know the countries in NAFTA?
-- Didn't know South Africa is a distinct country? Did she think it was a city in the country of Africa?

Palin is a gift to SNL.; November 06, 2008 10:34 PM
suzihussein22 said...: beryl said...Palin is a gift to SNL.

That is it in a nutshell.

iv dave-I think I'm feeling a little of that election jet lag too. Everybody and poochy seems to be stable now too. I don't usually get so concerned that fast, because my MIL has a lot of hypochondriac tendencies. They almost called the time on her though.; November 06, 2008 10:45 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Kujo

Even though JFK was a decent president because he was likeable. I think Clinton was just as good if not better.I will say this about JFK he made some darn great speeches.Sometimes action speaks louder than words. AJ; November 06, 2008 11:04 PM
RobH said...: Couple more voting tidbits for you all because, hey, I like this stuff.

We can now officially thank Bob Barr for IN and NC, and blame Ralph Nadar for MO.

From Green Papers:

IN:
Obama 1,367,263 49.94%
McCain 1,341,102 48.99%
Barr 29,185 1.07%

NC:
Obama 2,123,333 49.87%
McCain 2,109,282 49.54%
Barr 25,420 .60%

MO:
Obama 1,436,744 49.26%
McCain 1,442,614 49.46%
Nadar 17,742 .61%
Barr 11,354 .39%

If Nadar votes went to Obama, and Barr votes went to McCain, Obama would have carried MO by 548 votes.

And yes Tmess2, I know they’re not official yet, just officially fun….

wor ver = stranden (stuck in a bar late at night with no ride and with Joe Biden ??); November 06, 2008 11:20 PM
RobH said...: PS, does anybody know how to make numbers appear in table form (i.e. at tabs) in this forum? I even created that post in word and used tabs, and cut and pasted. They still flew left. Any advice?

word ver = tendatar (a tender potater?); November 06, 2008 11:26 PM
Kujo said...: AJ,

Yes and many would say Regan was a Great president too.

But along with having a great presidency, these two people moved the spirit of the country.

I have admired Clinton Presidency and Clinton more and more over the years, and I did like many of the things he did. But I think one thing that was lacking, not his fault, was his presidency lacked the crisis (besides the one he created).

Same with Regan. I am not one to say Regan was one of the Great Presidents. During his presidency I always felt he was a puppet for the machine. This is the same machine that has rolled through and destroyed the party in the last eight years.

The thing I get a kick out of is that people say Regan brought down USSR by making them fight a continuous war in Afganistan, causing there economy to suffer and brought down the government.

This is funny on so many fronts. Working backwards, then way have the Republican leadership of the last 8 years decide to follow suite.

Also, from the perspective I had back then (and now). Why can not other contries decide what rule of government is right for them. Why do we have to bring it down. I do not like communism and would not live in a communist country, but who am I to say how they should lead there country.

One of our problems is we have 2 term limit. For many reasons I think it is good, but at the same time I have to think why exclude a great leader from continuing to lead.

Maybe the rule should be if a President wants to run for a 3rd, 4th ... term, congress must give him approval by 2/3 vote. If he is a great leader then he/she would possibly pulled many house reps/senators in so the margin would be close to 2/3 if not over. Then if he/she gets approval, they would be able to RUN again.; November 06, 2008 11:37 PM
Kujo said...: Obama for a 3rd term....

maybe I am getting ahead of myself; November 06, 2008 11:38 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: Hey guys - does anyone know if they are counting all four EV for Maine? I think only 3 were credited on Tuesday night?; November 06, 2008 11:48 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Misc. things I heard today:

1) Tina Fey will NOT be doing Palin anymore.

2) Robert F. Kennedy Jr. 'will serve' IF asked to - I hope he becomes the head of the EPA.

3) Possible slot for Caroline Kennedy as Ambassador of the U.N.

4) RNC lawyer has been sent to Alaska to do inventory of Palin's clothes and bring them back to headquarters.

5) Huckabee is heading to Iowa in 14 days and Jindal in 16 days - looks like the campaign for 2012 is starting already!

What an interesting day it has been ;); November 06, 2008 11:51 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Sorry if this has already been posted, but incredible slide show on the Obama site:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/stateupdates/gGxQ9X; November 06, 2008 11:53 PM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; November 06, 2008 11:55 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Mike in Ga-

I believe Obama got all 4 EVs in Maine.

But in Nebraska CD2 (1 EV) has not been called yet.; November 06, 2008 11:58 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Kujo

I don't see how anyone could say Reagan was a good president he wasn't even a good actor. When he was in office he more than tripled the deficit. His small mind was spend spend spend. Interest rates was sky high. He basicly did away with the small business amd. He did a lot of damage. So how in the hell could someone say that he was a great president is beyon me. I guess they forgot what it was like under him. It was almost as bad as the last 8 years. I don't give a shit who says differently !!!!! AJ; November 06, 2008 11:58 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: Hey AJ - tell us how you really feel - don't hold back!!;) By the way - did they do a good job on your roof? The way you were talking -- I thought you must have hired "Hunks R Us"? I better stop teasing you or I will catch hell also! Have a good night!; November 07, 2008 12:04 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Kujo

as far as saying some people will say Reagan was a great president well there are some that will say Bush [yea the one in office] was a great president. Talk about full of sh##. Well you know how I dislike Bush I think I disliked Reagan even more!! AJ; November 07, 2008 12:05 AM
Kujo said...: AJ,

Well you know something, I totaly agree.

I was watching a great show (love to see it again) on Biography Channel on New Years eve 1999. The show was a count down on the most influencial People of the last 1000 years. Influencial being defined as someone who has the most affect on other people lives.

http://www.westga.edu/~physics/mil/bio1_2k.htm

A&E polled more than 360 journalists, scholars, and political leaders.

#85 Is Ronald Regan.

note Hitler is #16 so it was not just good people.

JFK not on the list.; November 07, 2008 12:12 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Mike in Ga

they did a great job on my roof!
I'm in a shi### MOOD CAN YOU TELL!

It's just that I get so tired of hearing that JFK was such a great President. He was President for less than 3 years. Yes he did some good things,and speeches. I agree with the things he said but damn it drives me crazy. He wasn't in there long enough to do some wrong things. Then there was Clinton. He did some really good things also but all people can seem to find is what he did wrong. He left this country in better shape in history.In our life time. People has put JFK on a pedestal and made him bigger than he was because of him being a Kenndey. But people can't remember back to 1993-2001 things were pretty good for the ave. american. All they can think about is him getting some. IT GETS OLD!!!!!!! AJ; November 07, 2008 12:15 AM
Kujo said...: One of the great representations of the Democratic party is the EX presidents/Leaders.

Carter, Clinton(s), Gore

vs

Nixon, Ford, Regan, Bush, Bush (soon to be), (Bob) Dole

Look at their lives after the Presindency. Kind of shows what motivation they have, the party has when they were in office.; November 07, 2008 12:18 AM
Beryl said...: "If Nadar votes went to Obama, and Barr votes went to McCain, Obama would have carried MO by 548 votes."

I've been sick of Nader for 8 years. He is an selfish old man who should have bowed out in 2000 so that Bush would not have won. The chain reaction of his arrogance resulted in the death of over 1 million people.

This may sound mean but I am really mad about this lie-based war we are still fighting.; November 07, 2008 12:20 AM
Mike-in-GA said...: AJ - It's OK we all have moods like that. When it comes to JFK, I don't think it's the fact that he was a great president - it's more that he inspired people and also that he became an icon because people remember exactly where they were when he was assasinated. That's where alot of the love for him comes from with most people.; November 07, 2008 12:26 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Kujo

don't pay no attention to me I've got PMS but I just don't have [them] anymore if you know what I mean.Have the playpen just not the tinker toys.LOL AJ; November 07, 2008 12:27 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Mike In GA

I remember where I was in school!!! They came over the intercome and said that he had been shot. AJ; November 07, 2008 12:29 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Mike in Ga

but what truly gets me is he was having an affair with MM while in office and it's rumored that he may of had something to do with her death. But let Clinton get him some in office and he's a low down dirty dog. What's the difference? I see NON!!!!!!AJ; November 07, 2008 12:33 AM
Mike-in-GA said...: So AJ I believe that's why you hear him praised so much. Not for what he accomplished. He inspired space travel to the moon and believe it or not inspired millions over the years with the Peace Corp.; November 07, 2008 12:33 AM
Independent Voter said...: AJ,

Remember JFK had his major F### up too. He failed big time when it came to Bay of Pigs. Yes, he redeemed himself with the Cuban Missile Crisis. But if anyone looks back, JFK would have been impeached had he not responded to the Cuban Missile Crisis in the manner he did. A great "docudrama" on the Cuban Missile Crisis is Thirteen Days. A lot of information is brought to light about JFK.

As far as Clinton, you know my beef with him so I won't rehash that, but yes you are right, he did some good things for the country.

Well, I'm going to bed. I'll catch you all tomorrow.; November 07, 2008 12:34 AM
Kujo said...: On JFK,

As I was speaking before about being tested during a presidency, JFK was tested during the cuban missile crisis.

He inspired people to go beyond their limits. NASA was born (I am a personal fan of space exploration)

Through the work of his brother Boby, his administration made great initial strides in Equal Rights for African Americans.

All in 3 years.

Now this is not an election. We can have feelings for more then one Ex President.; November 07, 2008 12:35 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: For the people that are keeping count of the total popular vote for the 2008 election - don't forget this too....

Ralph Nader 668,473

Bob Barr 494,551

Chuck Baldwin 178,406

Cynthia McKinney 144,543

and the number of 'write-in' votes ???

and what about the 'democrats abroad' and 'military' votes? are those separate or included in 'a state' total?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_presidential_election; November 07, 2008 12:36 AM
Independent Voter said...: Oh and by the way Mike-in-GA, I caught that, talking about AJ's eye-candy........ *wink* ;)

LOL!!!!!; November 07, 2008 12:36 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Mike in Maryland

the difference is back then they gave respect to our leader and nowdays most of them are treated with such disrespect. So does that tell you something about todays world. When I was young[er] I would have never in a million years cursed an adult now days they will look at you and say FU## you without blinking an eye. I'm not saying all young people are like that. My nieces and nephews know better than to curse me. All hell would break loose.

Now they expect to know what your sex life is if you hold a public office. That is wrong!!!!! They would have never asked JFK if he was having an affair. AJ; November 07, 2008 12:41 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: David Letterman Mocks McCain Loss: "You Don't Show Up For Me, America Doesn't Show Up For You" (VIDEO)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/06/david-letterman-mocks-mcc_n_141913.html

.; November 07, 2008 12:42 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Hey Dave

now that was my eye candy not yours.Even though their south side looked pretty darn good [also] LMAF AJ; November 07, 2008 12:44 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Leah

is that all of the states are just some of them? AJ; November 07, 2008 12:46 AM
Mike-in-GA said...: The world is different today than back in the 60's. We live in the world of technology and they are under scrutiny 24/7. If we would have had the same technology then - he would have faced as many or more problems than Bill Clinton faced. I would make one comment that might help - each person has those people whom they admire or hate. I don't let myself get into comparisons between them because each situation they faced is different because each time they served is unique. You admire the Clintons very much others admire someone else. Neither is right or wrong - it is just a personal preference so don't let it get under your skin.; November 07, 2008 12:47 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Kujo

NASA was born in 1958 JFK was president not until 1961. As far as equal rights we are all americans and should have equal rights. Bur on some things I'm sorry but blacks do have more rights. I'm no better than they are but they are no better than me. We are equal and that is how we should be treated. AJ; November 07, 2008 12:54 AM
Mike-in-GA said...: Hey AJ is that true what I heard? You actually went up on the roof and pulled some shingles back up so you could get your "eye candy" back out to your house to fix it? Can't be true - AJ would never do that:); November 07, 2008 12:54 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Mike in Maryland the big difference is Reagan had a bad effect on my life. He didn't to most of the people on here because they were to young. So all they can go by is the BS they read or what some people say. AJ; November 07, 2008 12:57 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Mike In Ga.

how did you find out that they came back out. LOL LOL AJ; November 07, 2008 12:59 AM
Mike-in-GA said...: AJ - There now that's better! I knew you couldn't stay in a bad mood for long. Especially when you started thinking of your "eye candy" again!:) Glad to see you laughing again.; November 07, 2008 1:03 AM
Karen Anne said...: iv,

I got an email about a site that is trying to get the tax exemption done away with for the Mormon church because of their Prop. 8 financing. I don't know if that holds water, but:
http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com; November 07, 2008 1:04 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Dave goodnight.

Mike in Ga.
my 12:57 and 12;41both of these I put mike in Maryland sorry I meant Mike in Ga. AJ; November 07, 2008 1:05 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: AJ-

Those totals for Nader, Barr, etc. is for ALL the states that they were on the ballot for.; November 07, 2008 1:07 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Leah

thanks. I appreciate it. AJ; November 07, 2008 1:09 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Well folks

I'm headed for the sack it has been avery long stressful day glad it's over with. I'm sorry Mike In GA I didn't mean to dumb on you. I haven't slept well the past two nights.AJ

Karen Anne they need to take away the tax exempt for the mormons.What they did way wrong for a church or religious group to do. AJ; November 07, 2008 1:15 AM
Mike-in-GA said...: Good Night!; November 07, 2008 1:18 AM
Mike-in-GA said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; November 07, 2008 1:19 AM
Mike-in-GA said...: Oops! I meant to say goodnight AJ - but I guess I will say goodnight to all. It is past my bedtime!; November 07, 2008 1:24 AM
Rob H said...: Something stinks in Alaska. HuffPo has an excellent article on bizarre voting statistics that point towards a rigged election that may explain Stevens miraculous "win."

Contradictory turnout numbers (massively low considering the heat in the race)contradictory spreads, etc. Great article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shannyn-moore/stolen-election-in-alaska_b_141704.html; November 07, 2008 10:17 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Rob H said...
Something stinks in Alaska.

And you're just figuring that out?

VBG

I've ALWAYS known that Alaskans are very strange, and the only thing you can expect from Alaska and the Alaskans is the unexpected.

Even when they elect a Democrat to Congress (Mike Gravel), the person elected is a strange bird.

Mike; November 07, 2008 1:44 PM
Joshua said...: I’ve been thinking.

When my wife hears me say those words, she always says: “uh-oh”

Anyway, I’ve been thinking about how they are going to clean the Whitehouse before January 20. Obama has to sleep in there on the 20th. Will it be the same bedroom that Bush slept in the night before? How are they going to get the smell of the sulfur out of the room? Then the answer hit me: call in Hugo Chavez to defumigate the room.; November 07, 2008 2:21 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: The Republicans have had a meeting to figure out why they lost the 2008 election, and they will have more. It appears, though, that one has already come to a conclusion:

"Moderates to blame for GOP losses, conservative leader says"

So says Tony Perkins.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/07/conservatives.election/index.html

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Laugh: because if they think THAT is the reason they lost this election, they will be in the wilderness for years and years, and if they don't make some basic changes to the party's ideology, the Republicans are threatened with becoming a small, regional, party, if not in danger of going the way of the Whigs.

Cry: for representative democracy to work, there needs to be a rational, strong opposition party to keep the ruling party in check. If the Republicans don't make some basic changes to the party's ideology, the Republicans are threatened with becoming a small, regional, party, if not in danger of going the way of the Whigs.

As it stands now, there are no Republicans in the House from all of New England (6 states with 22 House seats), and only 3 (of 28) from New York state. In the Senate, there are now only 2 (Snowe and Collins) in all those states. In total, there are 66 Congressional seats, of which Republicans now hold 2, or 3% of the available seats.

And Perkins thinks making the Republican party more conservative will help the party's chances in the future?????????????

Mike; November 07, 2008 2:40 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: I need to correct those figures:

No Republican House members from New England states, and three from New York state;

2 Republican Senators from New England;

Total of 5 Republicans out of 64 total Congressional seats is 7%.

Mike; November 07, 2008 2:45 PM
Karen Anne said...: Kujo, some of JFK's speeches are on youtube, like this one -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH6nQhss4Yc

As excellent a speaker as Obama is, he is not a patch on JFK.; November 07, 2008 3:27 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: I really don't know what to say about this:

http://www.wane.com/dpp/news/Business_owner_flies_American

Mike; November 07, 2008 3:30 PM
Karen Anne said...: Mike in M,

Disrespectful to the flag. And I hope he loses a lot of business.; November 07, 2008 4:11 PM
jean said...: Mike in Maryland,
I understand your quandary.
Since the Flag upside down means "distress" then that distress should be addressed.
Disagreement does not qualify, in my opinion, as distress.
Disagreement is the foundation of this country to discuss and vote for the outcome.
Everyone has the option to change something.

The argument of freedom of speech I also do not agree with to fly the flag upside down.
To fly the flag upside down whenever you lose or are not satisfied is just stupid.

Can you imagine McCain flying the flag upside down?
I don't think so.

I put it down as a temper tantrum which is very disrespectful to the country that gave him the opportunity to be an entrepenuer.

That act is to an individual he does not agree should of been elected: it should not be to the entire establishment of the USA.

And that is my opinion.

jean; November 07, 2008 4:12 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Karen Anne,

Tragically, the attitude displayed by that business owner is typical of large sections of Indiana, and one of the main reasons I moved from the state as soon as I could.

The town mentioned in the article (Decatur) is about 40 miles south of where I grew up, but is not in the reddest of the red areas of the state - that area would be Warsaw and Kosciusko County, about 35 miles west of where I grew up.

Where I grew up is also very red - Noble County went for McLameBrain by a 57-41.6% vote, typical of how they have voted in past elections.

Mike; November 07, 2008 4:25 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Jean,

It is not that he is flying the flag upside down. It is what he is quoted as saying in the article:

I care about my children and grandchildren, and we just elected a marxist socialist to the President of the United States!

The idiot has no idea what Marxism is, nor any idea what socialism is. It is a reflection on the education system that exists in that portion of the state, and the apparent lack of effort he made in his studies while in school.

I would not be in the least bit unhappy if the economy quickly turns around, while his business goes down the drain.

Mike; November 07, 2008 4:33 PM
jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; November 07, 2008 5:24 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; November 07, 2008 6:08 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: Hey guys - the election is over now! How can we heal if we continue to use language like McLameBrain and McShrub? I understand all the passion during the election and even I felt like that and made comments as such but without trying to judge someone or sounding like a preacher - will this help bring all of us together? We are better than the divisive Republicans and have some great discussions on DCW without having to get in the gutter with them. As for the guy who flies his flag upside down - he is slapping his country not President-Elect Obama or the Democrats. Even Barack stepped on it today with his comment about Nancy Reagan's seance and he apoligized for the slight. I guess the bottom line to me is what can we do to fix the mess we are currently in due to the policies of the current administration? Sorry if I sound like I am getting on my "high-horse" again but I read that crap on the other blogs and get tired of the bickering so I stop going there. I blog here on DCW because we can have good discussion without name calling - even if everyone occasionally differs on what they think is right and wrong. Even my least popular poster (Stop) came down to earth and posted a decent entry a few days ago. If he can, surely we can work to help Barack. I don't want to hinder the discussion - I just like it to be civil. I'll shut up now and go back into my hole.; November 07, 2008 6:13 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: President-Elect Obama did a great job today at his first press conference. It is being rerun on CNN now. I can't wait for the page to be turned. Can you all believe we have 74 days to wait?; November 07, 2008 6:18 PM
tmess2 said...: In the general election, overseas voters and military voters are considered to a form of absentee voter in the state in which they registered to vote. So there is no separate "official" count of those votes as they are included in the counts of the states (and DC).; November 07, 2008 6:27 PM
jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; November 07, 2008 6:55 PM
Beryl said...: I didn't listen to Rush but I was told that he threatened Obama today.

After mocking Maya Angelou's comments about Obama, he said something along the lines of this

"We can't wait until January 20th before he is stopped."

How long will these clowns be allowed to threaten or incite others to violonce?; November 07, 2008 7:30 PM
Kujo said...: More verbal diarea from Kujo.....

Ok, I was watching CNN and listening to an interview with Bay Buchanon. Now, of course, I am not a fan of BB, but I will give her little respect. While she has different ideas (completely) then myself, at least she does not sound like Tucker Carlson who will just lie straight through her teeth.

Listening to the interview gave me pause. Is there really anything Obama can do that will make Republican Pudants say he is doing a good job. Answer NO.

These Pundants are different then people like David Gurgin who is concervative, but he not Republican and he can actually listen and choose.

So this problem will stem past the Pundants and right on to Congress. The goal for the parties is not run a better government, it is to be in power.

So the question I ask myself is how can Obama really bring people together and work together.

Possible answer: By becoming Independent.

Now this would be a ratical idea. Could it work. Possibly. Would it fail, probably. But it is still an interesting thought.

One problem with being an independent is the support and infrustructure you would need to be re-elected. This is actually one area that Obama could "go it alone".

The second problem would be support. Would he lose the support from the Democratic leaders. Possibly.

Would he lose support from Democratic base. Possibly.

The fact is Obama really does not have the power right now (like Bloomberg does) to do such a move. He needs some instant success.

If in the next 2 1/2 - 3 years down the road things are really turning around, this might be a time to do such a move.

Why? Change, not politics as usual. By bringing in a concept and policy that is working, take politics out of the equation. Bring on a team of very strong people from both parties and create an unstoppable momentum. Make it so the stupid question like where do you stand on Gay rights in the Military are not even brought up.

If he gains this much respect, then maybe congress would consider opening up a 3rd term (here I go again) for an Independent. He would actually represent ideas from both parties.

Could he do this after the first term. Yes, like Bloomberg. This would probably be the more likely choice. However, it does leave the impression that he would be doing this only for personal gains then because it is the right thing.

Just a thought to kick around. I support Obama because of his ideas and his potential. I would not care if he was Red, Blue or even Green!; November 07, 2008 7:38 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Kujo,

It plain and simple would not work.

Why?

The Bay Buchanan's, Slush Rimbaugh's, O'Really's, etc. of the world will not support anyone for any office except someone who has the 'R' after his or her name.

And as those right-wing blowhards blow, so bend their listeners, who have an inordinate influence on neo-con and conservative politicians.

Mike; November 07, 2008 8:04 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: A bit of good news:

The Democratic candidate appears to have won the for the 1st Congressional District in Maryland!

From the Baltimore Sun:
A first round of absentee ballots counted by Friday showed Kratovil with 49 percent of the ballot, beating Republican Andy Harris with 48 percent. A Libertarian candidate also took 2 percent of the ballot as Kratovil claimed a 2,000-plus vote advantage.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/politics/wire/sns-ap-maryland-congress,0,5828616.story

Also from the article:
Maryland officials plan to review some 4,800 provisional ballots Monday, but those aren't expected to affect the outcome.

The Maryland Congressional delegation is now 7 Democratic House members, 1 lost village idiot (ooops, 1 Republican), and 2 Democratic Senators. Massachusetts, we're closing in on you, with your 100% Democratic delegation!!

Mike; November 07, 2008 8:10 PM
suzihussein22 said...: A little local bragging-

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20081107/NEWS0206/811070409/1009/NEWS02

Arts and music have been neglected badly in education. I studied Mozart and Beethoven in the 3rd grade. I was taught more than one verse of the national anthem in the 3rd grade. We learned pantomime in the 3rd grade. That's not happening now.; November 07, 2008 8:21 PM
Kujo said...: Mike-In-Ga,

I agree with you that it won't work. I guess I am looking at utopia.

So if it could happen, I would be looking at it as the path I spoke of.

Look at Bloomberg. Now mayor is different as each party does not care as much.

But if we assume that Obama is VERY successfull at both Economic and International developments, then it would be hard for but Repubs and Repub Pundets to criticize Obama's Administration. But as we spoke before, they have to. Its not only in their nature, it is the rules of the game.

Its like when the Bulls were winning the championship every year with Micheal Jordan. Every team in the league knew who was the best. So as long as they are in the league, they will continue to go after them, even though they no they are the best. Now if you just remove the Bulls and make them the US Internation team, then everyone could continue to fight for what is left.

In this picture, Obama administration is VERY successfull in all aspects. The Repubs and Pundents are stuck. They know that have to attack, but they know they sound rediculous (Like McCain in this last election... Palin is Qualified).

So if they remove Obama from the Equation, we all say he is the exception of the rule, then they can continue to exists and fight the lower battles.; November 07, 2008 8:56 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Kujo said...
Mike-In-Ga,

Ummm, Kujo? Could you check to see who is responding to your posts??????

But if we assume that Obama is VERY successfull at both Economic and International developments, then it would be hard for but Repubs and Repub Pundets to criticize Obama's Administration.

What alternative universe are you in????????

During President Clinton's Presidency, 25,000,000 jobs were created, the real income of every sector of the American populace rose dramatically, and most countries had at least a modicum of respect for the US. Yet what do we still hear eight years after President Clinton left office?

"HE RAISED OUR TAXES!"

The Republicans, and especially the Republican pundits are not rational, Kujo, and to expect them to gain rationality within 3 years is irrational.

I have heard Republicans condemn, castigate, swear at, and vow to bring down any and every Democratic politician for as long as I have been alive. Although I do not remember his Presidency, I was born when Harry Truman was President. From my earliest memories of politics, I can remember Republicans bi***ing about FDR and HST, and praising people like Eisenhower (deserved), Nixon (undeserved), Everett Dirkson (Senator from Illinois and deserved) and Homer Capehart (Senator from Indiana, and one of the most idiotic Senators EVER, and so undeserved).

Most Republicans, and especially Republican pundits, are like leopards - they do NOT change their spots.

Mike; November 07, 2008 10:00 PM
Karen Anne said...: I agree with Mike. I make at least a feeble effort to listen to some Republicans, made easier by my growing up in the Nelson Rockefeller and Barry Goldwater era. But a large part of the Republican party nowadays seems to be made up of people with IQs in maybe the 70s.

There is no reasoning with those people. Facts don't matter to them, and they create "facts" that seem to have originated on the planet Xenon.

Boy, am I disappointed that the Al Gore in the Obama administration hoax that briefly took in DCW was not true, sigh.; November 07, 2008 10:13 PM
Independent Voter said...: I would like to jump into the term limits issue. As far as expanding into a third term, it would never happen because of the lengthy Constitutional Amendment process. Remember it would have to be approved by 2/3 of each chamber and then it would have 7 years for the Amendment to be ratified by the states. I personally just don't see that happening.

On another note regarding Prop 8. There are 2.7 million uncounted ballots in California. Most of them are in heavily liberal areas of the state. I'm wondering if the state is going to go through with counting all of them or not. 1.8 million of those are mail-in-ballots and 728K are provisional ballots. I'm not sure if it would change the results of Prop. 8 but it is only behind by 480K votes. I really hope that they count them all because I have the feeling those votes could be made up.

Otherwise the court is more than likely going to overturn the results. Still crossing my fingers.; November 07, 2008 11:31 PM
Karen Anne said...: iv, What about a lawsuit to force the state to count those ballots?; November 08, 2008 1:32 AM
suzihussein22 said...: iv dave-Yes, all the votes should be counted.

On a side note, my son(11) knows Africa is a country in a continent called Africa.

Donna Brazile wrote an outstanding letter to the losers. I know its on WSMV out of Nashville and on CNN.; November 08, 2008 10:27 AM
Independent Voter said...: KA, usually they don't count them unless they have the potential to overturn the results. In addition, they have a couple of weeks to finalize the results. I've been keeping an eye on the counts to see if they are being counted or not. I assume they are still counting but I also assume they won't be counting over the weekend. We'll see.

Suzi, is your son a 5th or 6th grader? If he is a 5th grader then that would explain why he knows that.....LOL.....Just kidding (yes I already knew that.) But it sure would explain WHY Palin didn't know.

Ok, I think I'm done ripping on Palin. Much of the situation wasn't her fault.....except that she should have blinked when McCain asked her to be his VP, but she didn't. That is the ONLY blame that she should get. All other blame falls on McCain and his campaign advisors. Yes she was mean-spirited, perhaps that is her style. But the McCain campaign didn't vet her, they had no idea how deep, or shallow in this case, her knowledge base was. And then cutting her off from the media was also a huge mistake. Since the McCain campaign didn't vet her, it was up to the media and the people of the US to vet her on their own. I think she kind of got the short end of the stick on this one (and yes I know I went after her really hard too), but that is what happens in very long and tense political campaigns.

Granted, their (both McCain and Palin) rhetoric was way over the top and flaming the crowds to the level of in which it truly showed that neither of them were worthy of the highest offices of the land. Anyway, I'm done going after her because in Alaska, she's got some splainin' to do....In a way I can't wait to hear her interview on Monday with Greta Van Sustren. But we ALL know she won't receive any "tough" questions

I think Mike-in-Ga was correct in saying it is time to heal the country. Hopefully we can do this. And we also need to look at how many supporters of their ticket she truly brought on board. Remember without her, McCain would not have received anywhere near the 57 Million votes that he did receive. Most of those were "evangelicals" who are highly intolerant. But it shows that their base is still relatively strong. This is not to say that I agree with them, I don't, but it is recognition that there were 57 Million people who do. And it is now our job to bring those people back into the fold and rally behind our president.

With that said, my mother.....ugh! I called her the other night because her husband is undergoing radiation since his chemo-therapy failed to do its job, and she brought up the election and said that Obama is not her president. I said, "when are you moving to Canada?" She said she wasn't, then my reply was "then get used to it, because he is going to be your president for at least 4 years". She said nope, she would never recognize him as her president. I'm so disgusted with my entire family, especially after the disastrous 8 years we have been through because of people who think like her.; November 08, 2008 12:00 PM
Independent Voter said...: Oh my, sorry about the novel.; November 08, 2008 12:01 PM
Karen Anne said...: Some lunatic wrote an op ed for my local newspaper full of the junk like Marxist socialist and the fear that his beloved radio programs would now be taken away by the free-speech-suppressing Democrats

I had a kneejerk reaction to write a letter in reply (the paper publishes about everything, so likely it would get in), but now I'm thinking, don't I deserve a vacation...

What do you think? The sewer types are still out there blathering, do we need to combat this or just ignore them until the next election?; November 08, 2008 1:11 PM
Joshua said...: I think that the fact that California voted against gay marriage is a beneficial cautionary outcome of this election. It reflects that this election must not be seen as triumph of Democratic agenda, but rather a re-alignment of the country to the center. President-elect Obama’s election is a statement of a coming together of left and right, not a shift to left-wing agenda.

JMHO.; November 08, 2008 1:38 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: Suzi - I vote for the vacation. I know I need one! Maybe I'll go out and trim the grass around the house just to get out. It seemed like it's been weeks since I ventured beyond my computer and the TV.

Dave - I hope they count them all.

See you all later! Mike; November 08, 2008 2:24 PM
Beryl said...: Because I am an Independent who has voted for candidates in both parties, I continue to be hard on Palin. It bothers me and many Republicans that they are setting her up to be the "head of the party". Her unapologetic lack of affect, lies, and inappropriate use of money is not someone who should represent Republicans.

They should silence her within the party so I will continue to highlight her shortcomings. I think the party is divided on the Palin matter and many are doing the same thing.; November 08, 2008 3:15 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: I must admit I have not followed the Prop 8 stuff 'before' the election.

But I thought that California allowed for 'civil unions' not 'marriage' so why was there a Prop 8 in the first place on the ballot with the word 'marriage'.

Perhaps it could be that the people that voted one way or the other were just confused about what Prop 8 was all about?

There are a lot of people out there that supported 'civil unions' but not marriage... but I don't really see any difference, and I think all people should be allowed to have the same legal rights no matter of race, religion, or gender.

I have heard that the 'Mormons' might lose their tax exemption status over all of this and that IS a good thing!; November 08, 2008 3:55 PM
Karen Anne said...: Leah, the last I heard, which was awhile ago, people who were married had many more rights than people in civil unions. Maybe that has changed. And then there is the ethical or psychological or whatever it is effect of what the partnership is called.

Now I am confused, are civil unions legal in CA?; November 08, 2008 4:08 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: I was just now looking at the vote results on

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_presidential_election

and it looks like there could have been different results in:

IN
MO
NC
NE (DC 2)

if Nader, Barr, Baldwin, and McKinney had not been on the ballot.

I think that in the national election if a third party is not on the ballot in ALL 50 states then they should not be allowed on the ballot at all. Spoilers shouldn't be allowed.; November 08, 2008 4:12 PM
jean said...: There are not as many rights with civil unions compared to marriage and there are many.
One thing is that with a civil union you can in most cases have your partner under your health care.
Problem, it is taxed as income.
Tax your health insurance.
Sounds like McCain doesn't it.
jean; November 08, 2008 4:21 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Leah,

On May 15, 2008, the California Supreme Court, by a vote of 4–3, ruled that the statute enacted by Proposition 22 and other statutes that limit marriage to a relationship between a man and a woman violated the equal protection clause of the California Constitution. The ruling went into effect on June 17, 2008.

As to the difference between a civil union and a marriage:
- Civil unions stop at the state line. A civil union granted in Vermont is not recognized in Nebraska, Alaska or other state, whereas a marriage is one state is recognized in every state;
- Married couples can sponsor
their foreign-born spouses to stay in the country. They can inherit their partner’s social security, Veteran’s, or disability benefits. They may file joint Federal tax returns. Those same rights do not apply in a civil union. There are more than 1000 Federal rights granted to married couples that are not available to couples in a civil union, and those couples in a civil union have no potential to receive any of those rights.

As examples:
- Married couples can file a joint tax return; those in civil unions cannot.
- When a married spouse dies, the estate automatically goes to the surviving spouse unless otherwise stated in a will. Those in a civil union must take out legal documents (with attendant attorney costs) to have the same benefit.

Here is a web site with more information on the unequal benefits of civil unions vs. marriage:
http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/wedding/f/MarriageBenefit.htm

Mike; November 08, 2008 5:14 PM
Beryl said...: http://tinyurl.com/57ns3y; November 08, 2008 6:16 PM
Karen Anne said...: Beryl, It's too bad Mrs. King didn't live to see Tuesday. I did get kind of bummed out when I realized when the photo on the left must have been taken.; November 08, 2008 6:26 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Mike in Maryland- Thank you for your post.; November 08, 2008 6:29 PM
Beryl said...: Yes, Karen Anne. It bothered me too. I received this as a PDF file entitled "A Penny For Your Thoughts". It gave me one more reason to continue to pray for the Obamas and I hope others do the same.; November 08, 2008 6:30 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: The way to look at those two photos, in my opinion, is - one is the past (a death) and one is the future(a birth). One represents the end of an era the other the beginning of a 'new' era.

Live with hope and not fear!; November 08, 2008 6:43 PM
Joshua said...: I’ve been thinking about patriotism.

I guess we each define patriotism differently. I define patriotism as wanting what is best for my country. We probably all define it that way. And that is where the problem starts.

To me, what is best for America is what promotes harmony for us at home and worldwide. By my definition, Sarah Palin is not a patriot. She knows or should know that her level of lack of knowledge cannot promote the general good for the country. Being unaware of the countries that make up North America should say that she should be nowhere near the levers of power. But she blithely accepted the offer to become vice-president.

To me, McCain is not a patriot. If even a small fraction of what his campaign is now saying about Palin is true, and he made the choice of putting her on the ticket in the first place, and after he became aware what a disaster she would be for the country now that he has elevated her to the position of possibly becoming president some day, then he has not put country first. In fact he has put country last.

Finally, here’s the kicker. Though Obama did better among whites than Kerry, Obama so outclassed McCain that he should have trumped McCain among every thinking and intelligent voting demographic: white, brown, black, yellow, pink, gay, straight, bi, trans, whatever. But do you know that if this election had been only among white voters, McCain and Palin would be the next POTUS and VPOTUS? The only demographic that predominantly voted for McCain against Obama was white. And so, except for the minority of white voters who voted for Obama, the majority of whites are unpatriotic.

Q.E.D.; November 08, 2008 7:44 PM
Joshua said...: I am still thinking. I am thinking about California’s proposition 8. I have read from commenters who are surprised about the outcome. They say: if California voted for Obama, how come they also voted against gay marriage? To those posters, here’s my question: what is Obama’s position on gay marriage? How many times did he say he did not support it? Every time the subject came up he said he was opposed to it. So why are you surprised that voters who supported Obama at the same time oppose gay marriage?; November 08, 2008 8:00 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Ok, there are some political junkies on here......

Has there ever been either a President or Vice President elected the same year that they won a Senate seat?

Just curious since Biden won his Senate election and the VP this year.; November 08, 2008 8:28 PM
Joshua said...: Emit,
AFAIK, no. In fact there has never been a time when sitting senators won both the POTUS and VPOTUS at the same time.; November 08, 2008 8:36 PM
Joshua said...: Hold on, wasn’t LBJ a sitting senator when JFK won?; November 08, 2008 8:40 PM
suzihussein22 said...: I just really got a kick out of this comment in an AP article-

It's more than possible to make your fortune in Alaska - but I'd much rather find the future in Hawaii.

Mutts are the best!

Okay, now I'll go back and check out beryl's link. :); November 08, 2008 8:49 PM
suzihussein22 said...: beryl-That is so profound and could become an icon of what this country can be. I am so glad there are people out there that see these kinds of connections. Thank you.

iv dave-I'm a goober. My son is twelve. The years must be flying by. He's in the seventh grade. He remembered the continents from last year. He also remembers that his name is the same as a country in Africa.

m in ga-When you were talking about a vacation, I think you meant that response to karen anne. No biggie. :); November 08, 2008 9:02 PM
Independent Voter said...: AFO,

The main reason we are surprised is because ALL polls leading up to and including exit polling showed that the measure would not pass by a 52 to 48 margin when it indeed passed by the exact same margin.

Here in CA we don't even have "civil unions" we have "domestic partnerships" (even LESS rights than what would be granted under Civil Unions).

My personal belief is that the state needs to rename "marriage" in its entirety. It should rename it to "Civil Marriage". The reason I say this is because when religious individuals think of marriage, they automatically think church sanctioned marriage. This entire issue is NOT church related, it is civil marriage that we are seeking. The state should not be recognizing church sanctioned events. And the reason they do recognize these events is because the state has authorized the ministers to sign off on the marriage certificate. Therefore, if the state wants to continue to allow ministers to sign off, so be it, but the entire issue is not the church side of it, it is the civil side that we are fighting for. Most of us could care less what the church does or doesn't do.

What I find ironic however, is that there are a lot of people blaming Blacks for the passage of Prop 8, but I personally don't blame them. I blame the leadership of gays here in California. They have failed to build the alliances we need with minorities and other groups within the state.

If the people of the state don't want same-sex couples to have the same rights as opposite-sex couples, then these 'automatic' rights, benefits, and responsibilities etc. need to be removed from marriage. Meaning that "married" couples need to go through all of the same legal hoops that same-sex couples do. Meaning married couples would be required to obtain a will if they wish to pass their estate to their spouses, they need to obtain a medical power of attorney, they are no longer granted tax cuts because they are "married"....etc.

I'm not saying that I am in favor of removing these rights, benefits, and responsibilities to married couples, I'm saying that the equal protection clause was intended to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

My suggestion to all same-sex couples would be to set up a separate bank account and withhold paying taxes and sue the IRS based on unfair tax codes that apply to the majority which are not granted to the minority.

And Leah, I totally agree with you. At our protest today here in San Diego, which by the way drew 7000 opponents of Prop 8, one of the signs that stood out was LDS....meet the....IRS.

Sorry about the novel.....AGAIN!; November 08, 2008 9:06 PM
suzihussein22 said...: karen anne-I thought you'd like this also-

http://movies.yahoo.com/photos/collections/gallery/1235/fp#photo0; November 08, 2008 9:08 PM
tmess2 said...: I don't know for sure (am trying to track the Senate seats back in my mind) but LBJ may have been up for re-election in 1960. I think Conryn (who was up for re-election this year) replaced Gramm who replaced Towers who replaced LBJ.; November 08, 2008 9:10 PM
suzihussein22 said...: iv dave- You have a point. Also, the wording was kinda confusing to me except I had you guys to clarify the legalese on this blog.; November 08, 2008 9:11 PM
Joshua said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; November 08, 2008 9:43 PM
Joshua said...: IV, I am part of the choir since my philosophy is libertarian. I think that gays should have every human right, just like non-gays. However, I don’t think that it is correct to assert that gays should be entitled to all the rights of marriage. Here’s why:
1. No human has a right to “marry.” You will not find it in the Bill of Rights. Marriage is PRIVILEGE that the society CHOOSES to grant to one man and one woman.
2. A union between any two adults that does not injure a third should be permitted by society. But the society has chosen to accord special privileges to one between a man and a woman.
3. The union between one man and one woman can be shown scientifically to promote the essential reason we are here: propagation of the species and decrease the risk of delinquency (children without both parents have a higher risk of delinquency).

For those reasons this society has chosen to accord special rights to the union that promotes its own survival. I hope you take this in the spirit of an academic discourse and not as a person affront.; November 08, 2008 9:45 PM
Vicki in Seattle said...: it's been busy here, just checking in to say hello! sorry IV about Prop 8, bummer about Darcy Burner up here in WA too.; November 08, 2008 9:55 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Mike, my other half, found this one-

http://tinyurl.com/5p8htf

It was actually kinda cute, with a little spin. :); November 08, 2008 10:35 PM
Independent Voter said...: AFO, no offense is EVER taken, unless something is stated out of malice, and your comments definitely are not made with a malicious intent.

With that said, there are millions of gay parents in this country, whether it was by means of assuming the parental role of someone else's child or through adoption etc. Should they not be afforded the same breaks as heterosexual couples?

Our Constitution is based on equality, NOT privilege (or special treatment), therefore your premise is invalid.

Your premise can also be rejected that if marriage is not a right and is therefore a privilege, then state sanctioned benefits cannot be attached to that privilege since that privilege is not all inclusive.

In addition review by the Judiciary has time and time again ruled that equal but separate is inherently unequal. And therefore, will this time be overruled by the California State Supreme Court once again.

Finally your final premise (3) also doesn't hold up. Senior citizens are no long able to procreate. Therefore, there is no reason for them to marry, but they are still legal allowed to do so. In addition, there are couples who are sterile. There is no way for them to procreate, therefore there would be no reason for them to marry (except to sponge more of MY and Bill's tax dollars from the system). There are married couples who never intend to have children. Therefore there is no reason for them to get married, therefore their only reason to be granted the "privilege" to get married is sponge more of my and Bill's tax dollars from the system.

One of the other problems here, and this gets really really tricky. Post-op transsexuals (usually male-to-female are now considered female in the eyes of the law in CA, if they chose to change their identity with the state) ARE allowed to obtain a marriage license. This was even before the court threw out Prop 22 (from 2000). This goes back to my rebuttal to your third premise.; November 08, 2008 10:39 PM
suzihussein22 said...: iv dave-I quizzed my 10 yr. old on continents. She remembered all of them after I hinted kangaroos for Australia. Then I asked her if she was smarter than a 5th grader. She said, 'What do you mean, I am a 5th grader?' Can't get anything past her, eh? :); November 08, 2008 10:57 PM
Independent Voter said...: Suzi good for her. Hopefully she'll be able to name them in 30 years... :)

And YES, I can name them all.; November 08, 2008 11:09 PM
Independent Voter said...: Obama Biden Obama Biden Obama Biden
Obama Biden Obama Biden Obama Biden Obama Biden Obama Biden Obama Biden Obama Biden Obama Biden Obama Biden

O & JOE '08/'12; November 08, 2008 11:09 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Wow ...

This shows that President Obama IS ready on 'day one' and has already had a lot of preparation for the job done beforehand:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/08/AR2008110801856.html?hpid=topnews

Now ain't that something!; November 08, 2008 11:11 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Indy-

Congrats you beat me again.

I was going to try to get here earlier and do a

President-elect Obama Vice-President-elect Biden President-elect Obama Vice-President-elect Biden President-elect Obama Vice-President-elect Biden President-elect Obama Vice-President-elect Biden President-elect Obama Vice-President-elect Biden '08/'12; November 08, 2008 11:30 PM
Joshua said...: IV, personally I am conflicted on the gay marriage question. Privately, I don’t see how that can harm society. (OK, I can see how it can harm society but I don’t want to argue from that position.) I, however, am trying to explain how Obama’s position may not necessarily be religious. From our Constitution, the only reasons to justify gay marriage are overly broad interpretations of the 9th and 10th Amendments and the overturning of Plessy v. Ferguson. I will leave that to Constitutional scholars. I don’t pretend to be such.

That infertile couples and postmenopausal women should be a justification to permit gay marriage is a straw argument. This argument is easily defeated by noting that two men or two women are just simply incapable of procreation while it is always possible for heterosexual couples to conceive, no matter how improbable. And even if a particular heterosexual couple cannot conceive, how do you know which ones cannot? Are you going to subject every couple to infertility examination first?

That a gay couple with adopted children should have the heterosexual couple’s privileges can also be defeated by an argument against permitting gay couples adopting children in the first place, or keeping the children if naturally born.

I take none of the above positions. But I think that it is a decision for the society and we must abide by the decision if we are going to live in society. I know for a fact that the sodomy laws on the books in several states are not only unconstitutional they are also morally repugnant. We as a society must simply get out of people’s bedrooms.; November 09, 2008 12:09 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Some hopeful news from around the world...

Muslim clerics endorse anti-terror fatwa
Published: Nov. 8, 2008 at 9:57pm

HYDERABAD, India, Nov. 8 (UPI) -- About 6,000 Muslim clerics from around India approved a fatwa against terrorism Saturday at a conference in Hyderabad.

Maulana Qari Mohammad Usman Mansoorpuri, president of the Jamaiat-Ulama-i-Hind, called terrorism the most serious problem facing Islam, The Hindu reported. He blamed Islamic radicals for their actions and the news media for failing to distinguish between the radicals and the majority of Muslims.

"We have no love for offenders whichever religion they might belong to," he said. "Our concern is that innocents should not be targeted and the career of educated youth not ruined. The government should ensure transparency in investigation."

India has the world's second-largest Muslim population after Indonesia, although Hindus outnumber Muslims. The meeting was also expected to address issues like national integration.

"Islam rejects all kinds of unjust violence, breach of peace, bloodshed, murder and plunder and does not allow it in any form. Cooperation should be done for the cause of good but not for committing sin or oppression," the fatwa written at the Darul Uloom Deoband, India's foremost Islamic seminary.; November 09, 2008 1:19 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Aunt jean -

I did read your comment to me from the other day.

We have had our ups and downs, but now that we are on the same side I am happy for that. I do appreciate your message you posted and I also apologize if ever I crossed the line and said anything out of line to you.

As Senator Obama always says:
"we can disagree without being disagreeable" so everyone including us should remember that as we move forward into the future ;)

Hugs to you and to all a goodnight :); November 09, 2008 1:45 AM
Karen Anne said...: I was going to respond to AFandO but iv beat me to it.

AfandO, I am looking forward to your justification of slavery based on economic grounds and why women shouldn't hold jobs men can do because they are needed to stay home and raise the kids. I heard the latter many times in my youth, so I can help you out with the reasoning if you get stuck.

suzi, thanks for the scifi link :-); November 09, 2008 1:48 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: The 'yes we can' guys new song video...

It's A New Day - will.i.am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHWByjoQrR8

.; November 09, 2008 2:16 AM
Joshua said...: Karen Anne:

I understand you to say that you want me to justify slavery based on economic grounds, or why women shouldn’t hold jobs. What do these questions have to do with understanding why a majority of Californians, indeed a majority of the world, opposes gay marriage?; November 09, 2008 2:28 AM
Joshua said...: Karen Anne:
I also read your post that white women voted for Obama more than did for McCain. How does that defeat the argument that if left to white voters McCain/Palin would be the next administration? I notice that you don’t address the substance of any argument. You just cast aspersions. Did you ever read this book by Brinkman and Kirschner? The personality type I recommend reading about is called the Sniper. What do you think about the authors’ idea about how to deal with such people?; November 09, 2008 2:54 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Well maybe I look at things in more of a simplistic view than others but I think marriage should not be a governmental issue.

How about this...

Let all people no matter their 'race, religion, or gender' get married in a church, at home, outside under a tree, at the beach, or anywhere else they desire to. And have no binding legal issues attached to the 'marriage'. And most people will disagree with me on this one but I think the legal age should be lowered to 16 years of age in all states.

Then under civil law have contracts drawn up by the two parties that list out property rights, hospital visitation, social security benefits, burial preferences, etc.

Tax laws should be simplified to not take in account marriage - at all. Just tax the person that has a income, period. If the other people in the household choose not to work and stay at home so be it and there will be no extra tax exemptions for those folks.

Each person living in the USA should have some form of medical insurance that does not take in account their marital status - cover everyone no matter if they are married or not, working or not.

marriage should not be about the monetary benefits - it should be about the union of two people. Things have taken a wrong turn over the past 100 years in America.

I would like to see the rights of people under the age of 18 restored. My aunt that came to America from Italy married my uncle when she was 15 years old and they were married for over 60 years.

Everyone hollers about the civil rights of minorities, gays, etc. but why do we never hear about that right of young people anymore?; November 09, 2008 3:16 AM
Joshua said...: Leah, let’s take your points sequentially:

Let all people no matter their 'race, religion, or gender' get married in a church, at home, outside under a tree, at the beach, or anywhere else they desire to. And have no binding legal issues attached to the 'marriage'.

That completely goes against the nature of the American society. This country is founded on the principle of laws. This means that the main function of government is to enforce the contracts into which we willingly enter. Just like the government cannot enforce usury, it cannot enforce contracts that shock the conscience. Which means that there must have to be minimum standards set by the people.

legal age should be lowered to 16 years of age

Why do you arbitrarily choose 16? Why not 15? I think that marriage should be reserved to people who can be legally bound by their decisions. We do not hold 16 year olds accountable for contracts that otherwise bind them. Why marriage? On the contrary, it booves society to ascertain that individuals meet certain minimum criteria before they are allowed to be in a position to bring forth more members of society. Because the product of society can be sins that will visit the rest of society. If you need to pass a driving test before you are allowed to drive a car, there must be some kind of competence before bringing forth a child. A child can be several orders of magnitude more dangerous than a car.

Tax laws should be simplified to not take in account marriage - at all. Just tax the person that has a income, period.

I disagree. The reason we exist is to reproduce. It is the essence of DNA: to self-replicate. As long as your freedom to stretch your fist stops before you reach my nose, you should not be allowed to pollute the rest of society with people who will rob or murder me. To make it easier for you to responsibly reproduce, the society will make it easier for families.

marriage should not be about the monetary benefits

Marriage is ONLY about monetary benefits. Otherwise we would be animals. Just do your business and leave. No need to worry about responsibility and obligation.

but why do we never hear about that right of young people anymore?

Then you agree that this 8 year old should be tried for double murder and executed when found guilty.; November 09, 2008 3:49 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: AmericaFirstAndOnly-

I am too tired and too inebriated to respond to each of your points at the moment (my keyboard is not cooperating) but I will revisit this thread tomorrow afternoon after a good night of sleep.

I will say that you appear to be reaching your conclusion from the view point 'nurture' as opposed to from my viewpoint more tilted to 'nature'.

1) If all humans are on this earth to reproduce then there would not be a 'gay' community and there would not be females that are barren.

2) Not all cultures, throughout history, have been based on monetary wealth. I do believe originally they were based on 'survival'.

3) The legal age of 18 is a number that 'modern society' has plucked out of the air and it is a number that in some cases does more harm than good.

4) I had a friend back in the 70's that thought people should have to 'pass a test' before procreating and at that time I thought she was 'nuts' and I still do.

Good night or in other words buona notte ;); November 09, 2008 4:07 AM
Joshua said...: Leah, me too. As I was typing I noticed that I was becoming incoherent even to myself. I think sleep will help me as well. I remember a philosophy class in college that debated nurture and nature. Tabula Blanca etc. I don’t believe in the dichotomy. I think it is both nature and nurture. That means that no amount of education will turn a pig into a goat. But a goat can be trained to do some things that other goats left to themselves would never be able to do.

My statement about needing a license before marrying-having children etc was mostly tongue in cheek. Though I think that it is irresponsible to have children and then unleash them onto society to wreak all kinds of havoc. If you have a child, you are obligated to raise that child.

Bonsoir!; November 09, 2008 4:22 AM
Joshua said...: On second thought I will attempt responses to your points. You can read them tomorrow:

1) If all humans are on this earth to reproduce then there would not be a 'gay' community and there would not be females that are barren.

Those are dead-end mutations. The only reason life has reached the level of man beyond amoeba etc, is mutations. Some lead to advancement, some are detrimental. The advancement mutations are favored by natural selection. The others simply do not survive into the next generation.

2) Not all cultures, throughout history, have been based on monetary wealth. I do believe originally they were based on 'survival'.

That is really not understanding what money is. Money is nothing but survival except is has been made very portable. Before money the currency was food, animal skins, tents etc. With modern society these items have been commoditized and are now very portable. Instead of carrying a truck load of potatoes around it is converted to another currency (in the USA, dollars) and when you need more potatoes you go to where you put the money and take some and exchange them for potatoes.

3) The legal age of 18 is a number that 'modern society' has plucked out of the air and it is a number that in some cases does more harm than good.

This society (USA) has chosen that most people age 18 have reached mature understanding. Back 400 years ago, and even now in many societies, the age was much less. In this society things have increased in complexity and it takes longer to master what you need to be self sustaining.

4) I had a friend back in the 70's that thought people should have to 'pass a test' before procreating and at that time I thought she was 'nuts' and I still do.

Res ipse loquitor.; November 09, 2008 4:44 AM
Karen Anne said...: AFandO,

Are you sure you're not an escapee from freeper? There, how do you like that, a personal attack instead of a reasoned response, just up your alley.

I will leave you to stew in your homophobic juices.; November 09, 2008 7:38 AM
Karen Anne said...: Leah,

I dunno, wouldn't that make things very complicated?

I do agree about taxes, there should not be a penalty against or a benefit for being married.

Ditto health insurance. Also, it is crazy for companies, whose goal is to squeeze every last penny out of their employees, being the provider of health insurance, because they are motivated to minimize benefits.

I'm not sure about the age limit for marriage. I also had very young ancestors get married, but back then that was necessary to survive, particularly with a farm to work or whatever. Whatever age limit is set near that range, some people will not be mature enough to make a rational decision and some people will have already been mature previously.; November 09, 2008 7:39 AM
jean said...: karen anne,
I think the bases of the age of marriage through out our history was based a lot on the average life span.
Logically with our longer life span now goes with more education and perhaps even a longer time to reach maturity due to achieving higher goals.
Also due to longer life spans the divorce rate is very high also.
Being married to someone for 70 years is a long time and waiting till one is older to marry, lets say 30, makes a lot of sense.
I am kinda locked in my office for a while.
Couches full of teenagers sleeping
(sleep over) EVERYWHERE.
It would be impolite to wake them up.
Whatever:)

jean; November 09, 2008 11:23 AM
Mike-in-GA said...: Hi All - Wow your deep discussions are making my head hurt. I will make my discussion simple - I have come to the belief that all people should have the right to marry as they chose. I would not personally care to be gay - but that is my right - just as a gay person has that right to chose. As for AF&O's idea that we were put on this earth to have children - hogwash! I have been married 30+ years without children. If God wanted me to have children - I guess he would have chosen that course while I was of the age to have children. I don't want to get personal - but this belief that AF&O is expressing is so extreme that it turns me off. It's time we get off of our "high horses" and stop pushing our values on someone else. If a straight couple gets the benefits of marriage - so should gay or lesbian couples. Where do you draw the line with your thinking AF&O? The law used to prohibit interracial marriage. Should I support that premise just because we are a society of laws? If I believed that - then I would not have married a Filipina 33 years ago. You have the right to your beliefs - but YOU DON'T have a right to push them upon me or upon others - just as the religious right does not have the right to push thier beliefs on me. Whether I am Catholic, Muslim, atheist, or whatever I get to chose - THAT IS MY RIGHT. Many a friendship were ruined by discussions of religion and/or politics. There is no such thing as a civil discussion on these topics in my opinion when they are discussed with extremists - and it is my opinion that AF&O has extreme views on these subjects so I will not be drawn into further discussions of them. The only difference in my opinion between AF&O and StopObamaNow is the degree of tact that is displayed and the improved writing ability. Sorry for being blunt - but this "old fart" usually cuts through the chase and gets to the point. Hope you all have a wonderful day!; November 09, 2008 12:33 PM
Joshua said...: Mike in GA

Several times I stated that I was making academic and scientific presentation of facts, based on Darwin’s laws. Several times I was also careful to state that those were not my views. That you don’t want to hear something does not make that thing not true.

I can give you two guarantees:

1. The only function of DNA is to self-replicate.

2. If you do not procreate your gene will not survive to the next generation. If you adopt someone else’s child and nurture and raise that child, you have just won the Darwin award twice: one for not passing on your own gene, two for expending your resources to make sure that someone else’s gene is passed on. Those are just simply facts.; November 09, 2008 1:12 PM
Independent Voter said...: WOW! We went out last night and woke up with a little bit of a hangover (at least I have, Bill is still sleeping) and like Mike-in-GA said, this discussion is making my head hurt even more.

Mike, I don't see AF&O's views as extreme just a difference of interpretation of the law, and I don't believe that any amount of arguing would change his/her mind, nor would any quality of argument would ever be able to change his/her mind.; November 09, 2008 1:29 PM
Independent Voter said...: Something that you have also failed to include in your argument AF&O is that Darwin's theory as it pertains to natural selection, is why did he believe that natural selection exist to begin with. It is due to carrying capacity. The human population has grown exponentially over the past couple hundred years. This is not good. If we continue to expand, the earth is not going to be able to support this continued growth. If it does, we are sure to experience a catastrophic boom and bust period.

At the same time, you are claiming "choice" (of being gay or straight) as your main premise and that since one "chose" to be gay, they should not be guaranteed equality. And then within the same breath you are trying to use scientific evidence as your main premise. In one breath you claim it is a choice, and the next it is biological. It is EITHER a choice or it is biological, you cannot have it both ways. If it is biological and we are all created EQUAL, or people have made the choice and are therefore inherently unequal to the majority.

Pick your argument because it is not a both argument, it is one or the other.; November 09, 2008 1:43 PM
Mike-in-GA said...: Dave - I'll talk in lower case so I don't agitate your hangover. In my younger days I had many of them - but now I don't care to put myself through anymore of that. For almost an entire day I just sat back and observed the chat - but this morning I reached my limit about being a society with rules and laws. I don't know of anyone who spouts such extreme academic and scientific beliefs unless they are a "true believer". So enough said - I think I clearly explained how I feel about this crap in my earlier post. Take some Alka-Seltzer and you will feel better.; November 09, 2008 2:01 PM
Independent Voter said...: Mike,

Thanks, I understand what you were saying and it truly is appreciated. I am grateful to everyone who is supporting our fight. I am actually headed down in about 10 minutes to another protest which this time is taking place outside the LDS Temple. Probably won't be as big of a turnout because much of the gay community here in SD still attend church and won't get out of church until 12 or 1.

I for one, don't feel that his/her view is extremist. Despite that, I obviously totally and completely disagree with his/her argument and it fails in the valid category, but s/he is entitled to their opinion.

The hangover is just about gone. It wasn't a major one, just a slight hangover. I had gotten some information from my doctor about not taking any form OTC pain relievers because it is really hard on the liver (when combined with alcohol). But I did the next best thing, I had a bottled water between each beer, so that was why the hangover wasn't so bad.; November 09, 2008 2:11 PM
suzihussein22 said...: iv dave-Good call. The alcohol is dehydrating. When I have a glass of water with each drink, I don't have a hangover. "Tylenol" is the worst OTC to affect the liver.

The choice argument and the contract argument aren't making any sense with me.

Somebody was posting on another demconwatch thread that the Constitution tells us to provide for the common welfare. That would be the argument, in my opinion, for preventive healthcare coverage.

karen anne-You're welcome. :-)

leah-There's an Irish song for Obama posted on BBC-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/us_elections_2008/7718583.stm

Or it's on the front page if you want to click there first. :)

BTW, my county was one of the seven counties out of 95 that went for Obama/Biden in TN. Woohoo!; November 09, 2008 2:39 PM
Kujo said...: The purpose of DNA is to reproduce? To me thats like saying purpose of Chinese is Panda Express.

While DNA and Reproduction is related. I think it is far fetched to say God created DNA in order for people to reproduce.

I do say people in this instance because not all living organisms that reproduce have DNA.

But even if that is true, that is far beyond the point.

Taking your arguemtents further, lets say DNA purpose was to reproduce, but then we had Mutations that formed and we found some DNA that did not have the purpose to reproduce.

Thats where America comes in. It is my belief that America was formed from all the mutations that were no longer wanted from there home country. The founders then tried to create a constitution that covered all these mutations. Now they did have problems in convincing all mutations to include certain mutations. So they gave the ability for future congress to have the power to fix this constition over time.

So I don't think Obama, or congress should have to worry about what interpretation the constitution has now, I think if it does not fit our current society, it should be fixed just like the framers intended.

Personally for me they should remove marriage is a Religious distinction and the Government should only recognize Civil Unions. If Gays then want to be recognized as Married, let them convince the church and lets remove this issue once and for all from our political spectrum.

We have so many important issues on running our country. If Obama focus's his administration social issues, we will be no better off then a Bush administration.; November 09, 2008 8:15 PM
Independent Voter said...: In case you haven't all seen this yet, check out Obama "roasting" Rahm Emanuel. My favorite part comes about the 5 minute mark referring to Rahm losing part of his middle finger.; November 09, 2008 8:24 PM
Independent Voter said...: Kujo, All I can say at this point is, AMEN! (Coming from an Agnostic leaning toward Atheism.....well you get the point.); November 09, 2008 8:27 PM
Independent Voter said...: Soft, hows the pup and MIL?; November 09, 2008 8:29 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: AmericaFirstAndOnly said...
(along with a lot of other male bovine droppings) (children without both parents have a higher risk of delinquency)

Where is the basis of that assertion (which you called a 'fact')?

How about reading some research on the subject, not conjecture by homophobic, biased, religious, right-wing clap-trap nut-jobs?

Such as:
http://www.writing.com/main/view_item/item_id/1455265

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118584105/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/lgpconclusion.html

http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/parenting/11824res19990406.html

And you might find this opinion piece interesting:

http://media.www.fsunews.com/media/storage/paper920/news/2004/07/26/Viewpoints/SameSex.Marriage.Benefits.Children-2359182.shtml; November 09, 2008 8:34 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Full version (3:34)

Theres no one as Irish as Barack OBama- Hardy Drew Irish Obama Song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xkw8ip43Vk

.; November 09, 2008 9:19 PM
suzihussein22 said...: I didn't feel guilty this afternoon catching up on ghost hunters and harry potter news. :)

jean-The Titans won!

leah-Yep, that's the song on the front page of BBC.

iv dave-Ya know, you've got such a big heart asking about my family. You just about made me cry. My MIL is starting to be herself again, which is going to drive me crazy again. :~) She's trying to weasel out of staying with her daughter, just so she can lay around and possibly be a permanent cripple. We're fighting her on that for everybody's own good. I hope Bill's recovery is going quickly and your stepfather's handling the chemo as well as possible. I've got a good friend going through her second round of chemo. It's getting rough. She had to start wearing a bandana again too.

iv dave and ka-Sarge the tripod is doing really good. He should have the stiches out by Saturday. It's only cosmetic, but I wish his skin hadn't curled a little bit.; November 09, 2008 9:57 PM
Karen Anne said...: iv,

Obama looks about ten years younger in that 2005 clip... And not so very thin.; November 09, 2008 10:09 PM
Independent Voter said...: Soft - I'm so glad to hear that things are getting better for you MIL and the ruppy! That is such great news.

Bill's hand is coming along really well. The doctor said they are taking the cast off this coming week (hopefully tomorrow because I'm off from school - both professors canceled classes YAY). And PT is going VERY well. Obviously he doesn't have full, and probably never will, but he's already up to about 25% bend - according to his therapist that is great for such a short amount of time - GAWD IT FEELS LIKE FOREVER. But things are definitely looking up on that issue. :); November 09, 2008 10:10 PM
Karen Anne said...: suzi,

curled skin? what's that? Great that the pup is doing okay.

Keep your mom-in-law moving. I can't believe how much better I feel since I started using a gym, and I'm in my 60s.; November 09, 2008 10:22 PM
suzihussein22 said...: iv dave-Thank you. Your news sounds great too. Your professors are slacking. :) I'll give wrarge an extra belly wrub for you. :)
Oh yeah, seeing your avatar with the shades, Will Smith was on Oprah Thursday. He was on fire!; November 09, 2008 10:22 PM
suzihussein22 said...: ka-I'm not sure how else to describe it, but it's not curled outwards. Mike just said it should smooth back out. She, the vet, just had to make sure the edges of the skin were stitched back together. It's like the edges of the skin are waved together and almost make an m. That doesn't makes sense either, eh? Thank you.; November 09, 2008 10:28 PM
Independent Voter said...: Soft - I saw part of the Will Smith interview....it was really great! He knows our Constitution better than Palin......not that that is saying much, but you know what I mean.

As far as wrarge (sarge) please do :)
And I understood what you meant about the skin, but I'm not quite sure how to say it either, but it sounds quite similar to the way Bill's sutures were healing. But yes the scars are healing.

KA, yes he does look 10 years younger in that video, but still hot nonetheless. :); November 09, 2008 10:35 PM
Independent Voter said...: OOPS! My bad, I forgot that I said I wasn't going to rip on Palin anymore. Sorry, I will try to not let it happen again.; November 09, 2008 10:37 PM
suzihussein22 said...: ka-What do you call someone who gives in to someone else, an enabler? That's Mike's stepdad. I just don't think he's right for her immediate post-op period. She talks like she just needs to do a few stretches and we know better.; November 09, 2008 10:39 PM
suzihussein22 said...: iv dave-That's the part of the interview I was posting about. He is still Fresh. Speaking of classes, Mike gets to watch Shakespeare in Love, a chick flick, gag. :); November 09, 2008 10:42 PM
Karen Anne said...: That Irish Obama song is a music brain worm or whatever it's called ;-); November 09, 2008 10:42 PM
suzihussein22 said...: ka-I don't know what that is, but the name of the group is cute, Hardy Drew and the Nancy Boys. Actually that's ironic, because my new random question on my profile was what would I name my band?; November 09, 2008 10:50 PM
Independent Voter said...: Soft - LOL, tell him I'm sorry he has to endure that movie - YAWN!!!!!
I for one do like a lot of "chick flicks", but didn't happen to be one of them.; November 09, 2008 11:03 PM
suzihussein22 said...: iv dave-Right now he's stalling by playing Metroid.

It's about my bedtime. Night, y'all; November 09, 2008 11:10 PM
Independent Voter said...: LOL!!!!!

G'night Soft.; November 09, 2008 11:11 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Hey everybody

rise and shine what a wonderful day even if it's raining. I'm still looking forward with so much hope in the next 8 years.

How is everyone's family? [Dave's Bill, Suzi's little doggy and MIL. Hope everyone else family is doing well!

Got back from the Miranda Lambert and Blake Shelton concert at 6:30 am. Got lost in Dallas!! AWESOME AWESOME concert. Had a great time!!!! The long drive back was worth it. The drive there went real smooth. Oh yea got my meet and greet also with a pic.[terrible pic but it's ok]

I see no one has posted this morning. Has everyone got a hangover LOL LOL!

Leah I also seen your post and thank you your sweet I don't care what you say LOL!

Anyway I'll talk to all of you later hopfully in the mean time say alittle prayer that we are going to have a great president! Thank God!!! {I know I know Dave] do it anyway LOL] Love everyone AJ; November 10, 2008 10:53 AM
Aunt Jean said...: Trying to put a pic. of Miranda and Blake on I'm having just alittle trouble. AJ; November 10, 2008 11:07 AM
Aunt Jean said...: GOT ALRIGHT!!!!! AJ; November 10, 2008 11:09 AM
Karen Anne said...: That's an excellent photo, AJ.

I think Obama has already started at a really intensive level, ref the reports of Bush executive orders he has a task force looking at overturning, and that economic summit.

It occurred to me that this is the first time in a long time that I've watched a President (Elect) without saying to myself, I could do that better :-)

suzi, a brain music worm or whatever it's called is a song you can't get out of your head. "Theres no one as Irish as Barack O'Bama..."; November 10, 2008 11:18 AM
Independent Voter said...: Good morning, and in some cases afternoon.

AJ, apparently one of your wishes IS coming true. According to HuffPo, Howard Dean is stepping down as DNC Chair.

I'm glad to hear that you had a great time at the concert, but 6:30am? OUCH! Great pic!; November 10, 2008 1:00 PM
Karen Anne said...: Mr Super had a front page post about Howard possibly running for Senator
http://www.demconwatchblog.com/2008/11/senator-howard-dean.html; November 10, 2008 1:11 PM
Independent Voter said...: I just saw this on MSNBC:

Secret Service Code Names for the First Family:

Barack Obama: Renegade
Michelle Obama: Renaissance
Malia Obama: Radiance
Sasha Obama: Rosebud

----------

I'm not to up on SS Code Names, but what is up with all the R's?

And if all SS Code Names begin with the letter R, was George Bush's Code Name Rectum?; November 10, 2008 4:58 PM
Independent Voter said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; November 10, 2008 5:12 PM
Independent Voter said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; November 10, 2008 5:15 PM
Independent Voter said...: Ok, so I got my question answered about SS Code Names....apparently all First Family share the same first letter for their code names (during their tenure). This is not to say that all (meaning every First Family in history shares the same first letter). The Bush Jr. Family shares the first letter T in their code names.

As far as Bush Jr., his code name was Tumbler. Perhaps that explains all the screw-ups he's had.; November 10, 2008 5:18 PM
jean said...: Indy,
You realize that there are Secret Service employees that just do this, make up names, and are PAID.
Want to bet that this may be reviewed, as in reference to the budget and how moneys are spent.

I really like the girls names though:)

jean; November 10, 2008 5:21 PM
Karen Anne said...: I would never keep those names straight.; November 10, 2008 5:33 PM
Independent Voter said...: Jean, I guess the the Obama Code Names were given last year when Secret Service was called in. But Biden's didn't get assigned until he was announced as the VP candidate.

KA, I agree. President Obama's name would be easy to remember and VERY appropriate for the person we are talking about. But you're right, I would never be able to keep them all straight either.; November 10, 2008 5:50 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: jean said...
You realize that there are Secret Service employees that just do this, make up names, and are PAID.

Jean,

They don't do it full time. For that matter, they don't even do it part time.

Most likely, it is one or two employees who do it on an as needed basis, taking about 15 to 30 minutes in total time.

Before I retired from federal government employment, I was involved in several of these type of exercises over the years. Assigned the project, did it, move on to my duties as assigned in the position description. Granted, some projects took a few hours or even weeks, but most were not full time, even during the duration of the project.

Mike; November 10, 2008 5:53 PM
suzihussein22 said...: iv dave-Come on, you know McCain's code name would've been Maverick?!

aunt jean-I can still get lost in Nashville. Don't feel too bad. I'll have you know I posted on the HRC story this morning before I went to work. :) Nice pic.

ka-Aah...I've just always heard it as a stuck record in my brain. :) This is the song that never ends...

Okay, now I'll quit slacking and go read the news.; November 10, 2008 6:26 PM
suzihussein22 said...: leah-I thought of you when I saw this photo-

http://tinyurl.com/6bczoc; November 10, 2008 6:32 PM
jean said...: mike in maryland,
Thank you for your input, outstanding insight, and incredible
knowledge.
There is no doubt that all federal programs are run with absolute efficiency and why that was brought up, well, My Bad.

Indy,
Look at the new Obama website.
Looking to hire. Heck why not look.:)

jean; November 10, 2008 6:53 PM
jean said...: Aunt Jean,
I also remember your posts, shoot,
it has been a few days.
Thanks.

You were rocking till 6:30am?
I guess I need some lessons LOL.
jean; November 10, 2008 8:01 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Jean

I just wanted to show Dave how a woman does it. I didn't even wake up with a hangover.LOL LOL 55 years old and still got it [yea right] LOL LOL AJ; November 10, 2008 10:02 PM

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