Tuesday, April 01, 2008

Open Thread

WE'VE MOVED! Democratic Convention Watch is now at http://www.DemocraticConventionWatch.com

Who's going to win, who has a better chance against McCain, or whatever else is on your mind.

Update: We have decided to stop allowing anonymous comments. Not because we don't like reading what people have to say but because Blogger has introduced a new "feature" that makes you go to a second page when the number of comments go over 200.

It's very easy to set up a Google account so that you can continue commenting.

Thanks!

Previous Open Thread here

1560 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   1401 – 1560 of 1560   Newer›   Newest»
Jim said...

1. The Journey;
2. How does one go from being an avid Obama supporter to a Clinton leaner to an avid Clinton supporter?
3. In 2004 I was so impressed by Obama’s speech at the convention. I said to myself, “This a very bright, eloquent and dynamic young man. A future superstar in The Democratic party”
4. I backed Edwards and hoped he would get it and pick Obama as VP.
5. By the time of the Democratic primary in Texas, Edwards was toast, and I switched to Obama hoping he would pick Clinton as VP.
6. I attended the Texas Caucus, being selected as an Obama delegate although I was a little concerned by the influx of
outsiders for Obama (Move-ON.Org people and others) messing with Texas. I assumed Clinton had some of the same so that was OK.
7 I started searching out and reading blogs. I would investigate posts with “Supposed Facts” on both of them. And what I discovered were lies coming from both sides, so still slightly still Obama leaner. The more I read though, the more I witnessed excessive slander against Clinton and just plain Bashing of her.
Over to Clinton and investigating Obama.
Conclusion: He is a slick talking, tentative attractive straw man. He needs a few years under his belt.

Pablo said...

Very interesting Jim.

I always liked Edwards myself, but was a Hillary supporter from the start. The very first time I even noticed Obama was from the same speech at the 2004 convention, but knew little more about him. During the first few debates I thought never thought Obama had distinguished himself much from Edwards. When Edwards dropped I was still for Hillary but had decided by then I'd be happy with either of them.
I instantly lost interest in supporting Hillary the day she said both her and McCain were the only two qualified to run for President. I felt she had thrown her party under the bus for the sake of herself.
Perhaps I see through a slanted lens now, but nothing has changed my mind since.
I'll still support whichever democrat wins the nomination.

Yamaka said...

"Barack has been an elected official from 1997 - present"

From 1997-2004 he was a Part Time Legislator in IL (most of the time he was not in his seat voting: he was outside the building smoking - "present" more than 300 times!!!)

"Hillary has been an elected official from 2000 - present"

Before she got elected to the US Senate, she was a sparring partner with Bill in the Executive Branch: 10 years in Arkansas, 8 years in Oval Office knowing everything that goes on minute by minute. She was NOT serving dinners like most other First Ladies, she was into policy and administrative details.

Oh, Ya She was given the Co-President title by the virulent journalists like Robert Bartley of Wall Street Journal.
_______________________________

jp:

I will prefer seating ALL delegates from MI and FL as per the choice of the voters.

BHO removed his name voluntarily from MI, his tactical move to pander to other early States, I surmise. His move is his right.
_________________________________

vwis:

I am enjoying my blue sparkling pool everyday, after a 5-mile power walk!

Houston has the largest Biomedical Research Center in the World, the ideal place for my practice and research!
___________________________________

Ed

I am optimistic that real peace will come to Palestinians and Israelis in about 4-8 years.
_________________________________

Cheers. :-)

Leah said...

According to the OFFICIAL OBAMA website:

The number of delegates needed to win the nomination:

Obama 285
Clinton 424

The numbers are pretty close to the DCW numbers.


OBAMA / Kathleen Sebelius '08

Yamaka said...

According to the OFFICIAL OBAMA website:

BHO has already moved to

1600 Pennsylvania Ave!!!!

Keep reading the Official Osama site to know the total truth.

Ooooops I meant Obama site!

Smile and Cheer for a Change!

Pablo said...

Not to quibble, and I could be wrong, but looking it up real quick it shows Obama voted present 129 times while voting on over 4000 measures during his 8 years in the Illinois Senate. If you were familiar with Illinois legislature of which I am not, it's said to be a common practice to vote present on measures for instance you may be in favor of a particular bill but not comfortable whether of not it's constitutional. They also commonly vote this way as a party or issue bloc strategy.

Obama was the only lawmaker voting "present" on bills winning near unanimous support, even on issues he supported and on one he sponsored.

Pam Sutherland is the president and CEO of the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council. In his defense she says Obama voted "present" at least seven times to provide cover to other abortion-rights supporters. this was more-so to protect other senators whose vote would be used against them in their campaigns.

Yamaka wrote "8 years in Oval Office knowing everything that goes on minute by minute"
I suppose here we will continue to disagree. If only her white house schedules that were released proved this. if fact Newsweek did a story after she released her notes of how bare her schedule was after her failed Health reform fiasco and many curious deletions on important days. They do note her appearance on the Oprah Winfrey show and her radio show interviews to promote her book "It Takes a Village", so I guess that's something. I'll give her full credit for that.

ed iglehart said...

I am optimistic that real peace will come to Palestinians and Israelis in about 4-8 years."

Optimistic is the right word. I'd say over-optimistic. It has been sixty years already since al Nakba began, and, so far it's just got worse...

Would you care to venture a guess as to how peace is likely to be achieved? If you reckon it'll come via the "road map". you haven't read it, or the Israeli "reservations", e.g.:

"The character of the provisional Palestinian state will be determined through negotiations between the Palestinian Authority and Israel. The provisional state will have provisional borders and certain aspects of sovereignty, be fully demilitarized with no military forces, but only with police and internal security forces of limited scope and armaments, be without the authority to undertake defense alliances or military cooperation, and Israeli control over the entry and exit of all persons and cargo, as well as of its air space and electromagnetic spectrum."

Some "state"!

Salaam, etc.
ed

Jim said...

Pablo,
You said
"Obama voted "present" at least seven times to provide cover to other abortion-rights supporters. this was more-so to protect other senators whose vote would be used against them in their campaigns."

Guess I'm dense, but I fail to see the logic. Voting for a bill to relieve others from having to do so makes a little sense, but not present. Present is abstaining in my book.
Please enlighten me.

Jim said...

Voting Present in order to keep a Fellow senator's constiuents from knowing his true nature sounds like old politics and downright fraud.

Nancy said...

Obama is unelectable. The whole point is that Obama cant just give a 'speech' again, that will just contradict every speeches he gave before. Obama calls him my "UNCLE" and soul "MENTOR" when things go right. OBAMA now saying he is not my PASTOR anymore? His "UNCLE" and soul "MENTOR" for over 20 years. Like Wright said, OBAMA will say things as a politician and these are one of them...

Wright has been consistent. He is the same guy he was on those tapes 7 years ago. 10 years ago. 20 years ago. He was the same guy all along. Obama suggesting he is OUTRAGED only now, but not over the last 20 years is literally impossible.

There are liberal media who still thinks he will be the next president, and I can tell you nowhere near as many people today think he will be as they did last week or 6 weeks ago. They will STILL try to spin it for Obama.

Now we know why all the Obama supporters tried to FORCE Clinton out after Ohio and Texas, when they were SURE Obama would win those states and knock her out. Well, he lost there and then he lost big in PA after calling the HARD WORKING BLUE COLLAR AMERICANS
"BITTER" so they cling to GUNS, RELIGION and ANTIPATHY? How stupid OBAMA can get assuming we will easily forget about his "BITTER" comments? He does not share my views and millions of hard working BLUE COLLARS in AMERICA and we will never forget and never vote for him.

The Wright situation will NOT go away.
The Ayers situation will not disappear.
The "Bitter" comment had damaged his relationship with BLUE COLLAR WORKERS forever.
The Unpatriotism and Plagriarism issues will always be an issue.
The rank 1st Liberal Senator will always be his picture that every Conservatives wouldn't want to see
His involvement with indicted businessman REZKO will hunt him down a month or few from now.
THERE ARE SO MUCH MORE GUNS THE REPUBLICANS CAN USE AGAINST OBAMA!

MOST OF ALL, He sat in the pew for 20 years. You cant wish 20 years of your personal life away with a speech.

Aunt Jean said...

vwis what you said to nancy.I believe that Hillary will not put up with their BS and they know it. Are they afraid of her yes to some extend I do think they are plus the fact I think obama has promised them something.Yes I could be totally wrong. But I also have the years to prove that my instincts about a person has never failed me.Mark my words one day we will know who the real obama is and it's not going to be pretty.That is why it saddens me to my core for you a very intelligence man like yourself vote for a man like him.I pray everyday that God will not forsake or condemn us for we no not what we are doing. I felt strongly about Bush but the feelings I get from obama are so much worse. Jean

Aunt Jean said...

Pablo here I thought that you were unbias [yeah right]. Hillary has work for the people every since she just about got out of college and you try and down play that shame on you. She has tons more experience than obama.and you fail to see that. At least when she began in politics all she wanted to do was help the people. What was obama trying to promote his own self. Jean

Yamaka said...

In the cruel event of BHO stealing the Nomination w/o FL and MI, this is how the 527s and the RNC will introduce him:

Osama Bin Laden wants to destroy America from outside. This is a fact.

Is Barack Hussein Bin Obama trying to destroy America from inside?

By his FAR LEFT liberal Big Govt Policies.

By his association with Ayers and Rashid Khalidi.

By his association with Rezko, Wright and Farrakhan.

The non-partisan middle America (60 million voters) will say resoundingly "NO, NEVER we will take that RISK".

Boom, McCain will have a landslide.

The clueless Democratic Party will lose not only the WH, but also the Congress.

SDs, the threat is REAL.

For the RISK is REAL and enormous.

Think hard, and act fast.

Vote for Hillary, the First Woman POTUS.
_________________________________

Jean, Nancy and Jim:

You are all too good. Keep writing. I enjoy reading your posts.
________________________________


Smile For a Change. :-)

Aunt Jean said...

Yamaka thank you but after my last two post you might think I'm somewhat of a strange bird. lol There is no doubt about it I really like your post. Jean

ed iglehart said...

知 者 不 言。 言 者 不 知。

Those who talk don't know.
Those who know don't talk.
Lao Tzu ~450 BCE

ed iglehart said...

Guilt by association?

Former heavyweight boxing champ Muhammad Ali visited the ruins of the World Trade Center on Thursday. When reporters asked how he felt about the suspects sharing his Islamic faith, Ali responded pleasantly, 'How do you feel about Hitler sharing yours?'

Assalaam 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu
Peace, God's mercy and blessings be upon you

Leah said...

"You don’t have to talk tough to be tough..." Obama
______________________

Obama is a very wise man with integrity, intelligence, vision, honesty, class, and eloquence!

VOTE for the future and not the past.


OBAMA / Kathleen Sebelius '08

Aunt Jean said...

Ed Imust admit that the person that said that to Ali it was a stupid comment but what Ali said was worse.Kind of a blasphemy remark. Jean

Aunt Jean said...

Leah Hillary is just one He## of a great woman that has the vision for every American to have prosperity in their life..Hillary R. Clinton the next POTUS 08. Jean

Leah said...

U.S. Constitution Article VI:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.


Obama / Kathleen Sebelius '08

.

Yamaka said...

"Obama is a very wise man with integrity, intelligence, vision, honesty, class, and eloquence!"

What a joke!

1. Integrity:

Michelle's Salary hike and the One Million Dollar Ear Mark to UC Hospitals! "Quid Pro Quo".

2. Intelligence:

In the last Debate Charlie asked the Qn: Tax rate increase will reduce the tax revenue. You want to hike the rate and spend more. Where will you get the money to spend?

BHO did not understand the question at all because of lack of knowledge.

3. Vision: He needs a glass - he can't see things in the dark!

4. Honesty: Oh ya, he went to Rezko to get help in buying the 2 million dollar Mansion. He gave him about $300K!

5. Class: Yes, he moved from middle class to upper class!

6. Eloquence: Yes, he learned that from 20 year association with pastor and "Guru" the Right Hon'ble Jeremiah Wright!

Oh Ya, we need some humor now and then!

Smile and Vote for Hillary.

:-)

Yamaka said...

"Obama is a very wise man with integrity, intelligence, vision, honesty, class, and eloquence!"

What a joke!

1. Integrity:

Michelle's Salary hike and the One Million Dollar Ear Mark to UC Hospitals! "Quid Pro Quo".

2. Intelligence:

In the last Debate Charlie asked the Qn: Tax rate increase will reduce the tax revenue. You want to hike the rate and spend more. Where will you get the money to spend?

BHO did not understand the question at all because of lack of knowledge.

3. Vision: He needs a glass - he can't see things in the dark!

4. Honesty: Oh ya, he went to Rezko to get help in buying the 2 million dollar Mansion. He gave him about $300K!

5. Class: Yes, he moved from middle class to upper class!

6. Eloquence: Yes, he learned that from 20 year association with pastor and "Guru" the Right Hon'ble Jeremiah Wright!

Oh Ya, we need some humor now and then!

Smile and Vote for Hillary.

:-)

Pablo said...

Miss Leah, why would you say you thought I was unbiased and wish shame on me? I clearly have said that I'm decidedly for Obama. Just because I don't swallow the same 35years of experience that she offers is not a reason to chastise me. I have given her plenty of credit.

I understand everyone's allegiance to their candidate, and saying that the other is the lesser. What is important is the similarities of the issues that both of these candidates stand for, and either candidate is much better than the third option.

My hope is when Obama does steal the election as Yam says with more delegates, votes, states won, more fundraising, more new registered voters , and an undeniably far better run campaign, that feelings won't be too hurt. You will stand there with Hillary, give a wave and a smile, and say nice race and good luck.

Leah said...

Pablo -

I have not said anything about you or to you.

The post you are talking about is one that Aunt Jean wrote to you.


Obama '08

Aunt Jean said...

Pablo I do believe you got the name wrong. But that's ok. Now if you think I would stand and wave to oba,a I guess you don't kmow me very well [ in other words when he## freezes over].But see I'm not worried about that because it will be obama smiling and saying good luck in being the next POTUS Hillary. Jean

countjellybean said...

Hey ed,

I sometimes tell this (true) story: A reporter asked Martina Navratilova if she was "still a lesbian". To which she replied, "Are you the alternative?"

Yamaka said...

"more delegates, votes, states won, more fundraising, more new registered voters , and an undeniably far better run campaign"--pablo


As of today, as per left last box of DCW, BHO has barely 12 delegates more.

As per RealClearPolitics, HRC leads BHO by 122K popular votes.

He has won mostly small Caucuses that normally, historically, go to Republicans in the General Election (GE). No big deal about them.

She has won mostly large Primary States that a Democrat MUST win for the Nomination/GE.

So far BHO has about 14.5 million voters. This is a very small fraction of nearly 120 million voters who would go to the GE.

BHO's campaign is run really by the former Bill Clinton operatives (those who got kicked for poor performance and other infractions) and BigMoneyBags who are basically mostly anti-Bill Clinton rather than Pro-Obama! Plus, the campaign has the hands of K-Street Operatives. No big deal about it.

In Real Inclusive Full Democracy, ALL votes should count. Then it means 2208 is the count for the Nomination. Not the fraudulent 2025

This Nomination will be finally called by the 350 or so SDs who would seriously ask the questions:

Who has won large MUST win Primaries for a Democrat?

Who has more popular votes?

Who is really Electable?

Who has clear name recognition?

Who has less potential scandals?

Who has experience and aptitude to manage the mighty US Federal Govt?

Who can start working from Day One?

Clearly, the resounding answer is Hillary Rodham Clinton.

SDs will vote for her to the Nomination. Because she has earned it from Day One.

Of course, the anti-Clinton and anti-women crowd cannot handle the truth in politics.

:-)

Leah said...

The TRUTH is -

The ONLY thing that matters is the number of delegates still needed to win the nomination:

Obama 292
Clinton 427


OBAMA / Kathleen Sebelius '08

countjellybean said...

Crap, I blew the punchline. She said "Are you still the alternative?".

Leah said...

Possible upcoming debates-


Although the final schedule and formats must be agreed to by the eventual nominees of each party and any participating third-party candidates, the following is the schedule announced by the Commission on November 19th.

Three presidential debates:

* September 26, 2008 at the University of Mississippi in Oxford, Mississippi[2]
* October 7, 2008 at Belmont University in Nashville, Tennessee
* October 15, 2008 at Hofstra University in Hempstead, New York

One vice-presidential debate:

* October 2, 2008 at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri

Amot said...

I am glad that so far there is only a handful of Hillary and Obama supporters, stating they will not vote for the other candidate if he/she is the nominee. And no blogger has said he/she will vote McCain instead (I may be wrong on that). I can live with Aunty and Yamaka not voting Obama or Leah's write-in. More important - the party is not that divided as it looks if one reads the last week debates here. Those are great news!
All Obama folks - he is clearly the winner of the more pledged delegates (no matter how you count MI&FL), probably he will win the popular vote in most of its readings too! The magic number now is the number of delegates needed to reach 2024 and get the nomination, and my calculation say he needs less than 90 more supers to seal it. It is not important when will he catch her in supers (he only trails in DNC members and those are Clintons' old friends and allies mostly). He draws more support with supers each day and that is good. But I would be troubled if he fails to perform good on May 6th. If he lose double digit in IN and/or win single digit in NC there is a problem. I hope he will focus on those states and get the good results he had so far. If on May 6th he is winning or close to win in IN and in NC he is victorious with 15-20% margin, the question of his electability is not valid. That's his final test, after it he only has to wait until he gets 2024 and that logically should happen on June 4th!

Yamaka said...

"The magic number now is the number of delegates needed to reach 2024"-amot

This number is a fraudulent number. In Full Inclusive Democracy ALL votes and ALL States matter.

2208 is the legitimate number, if you care about legitimacy.

No illegitimate Party can win the General Election, that's what really matters.

Cheers.

Tyler said...

Nice to see the cheerleading for candidates continues on this blog over discussion of policy.

Anyhow, Sen. Clinton had a really good interview with the Indianapolis Star 2 days ago, and the unedited interview (it's about an hour) is here

When I talk about why I support Sen. Clinton in the Democratic primary, this interview should show why. This interview was everything that that last "debate" wasn't. Questions of policy, reasonably detailed answers, and full explanations that show her understanding of nuance and policy on a variety of relevant issues.

Please note that I don't have a negative opinion of Sen. Obama, and I respectfully request that others on this board not characterize my support for Clinton to be opposition to Obama in any way.

I welcome intelligent conversation with others on this board regarding Clinton's policy positions as put forth in this interview. I have no interest in cheerleaders' opinions or arguments over what DNC rules for delegates should be.

Thank you

Aunt Jean said...

Tyler welcome to this blog nice to have enough Clinton supporter. She is one smart woman. I like her ideas on health care and if people would really look at it I do believe that it would work. As far as pulling our troops out I'm sure with all the support of military that she will perform a timely withdrawal. My great nephew has been over there for just over a year I pray that he makes it back safely. My one hope is that obama doesn't do what Bush did to Gore once was to much twice is asking for there to no longer be a democrat party. Until we hear from you again take care. Jean

jpsedona said...

It looked like Hillary would have a good SD day with the add-ons being selected in NY (4) & MD (2). On the day, she may win the battle but the news points to losing the war.

The switch of Joe Andrew is both unexpected and potentially disasterous to Hillary.

Here's why:

Ignoring the remaining add-ons to be selected, the two largest groups of uncommitted SD's are: Senators, Representatives & Governrors (approx 88). And DNC uncommitted members (133).

Joe Andrew is no regular SD. He's a true DNC insider that may influence uncommitted DNC members to end the process by endorsing Obama. By switching from Hlllary and stating that "a vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote to continue this process, and a vote to continue this process is a vote that assists (Republican) John McCain.", Andrews is signaling that Hillary's efforts to secure the nomination at this point are futile.

But let's assume that Joe is not an influencer. When it comes down to 133 uncommitted DNC SD's, are the DNC members who put the rules in place for MI & FL going to be the same people that completely disgreard those rules and buy the 'popular vote' argument? It's possible, but I don't think so.

So how will the biggest block of uncommitted superdelegates decide?

Will they prolong the battle all the way to the convention?

Will they cast the perty in even a worse light in the GE by handing the nomination to Hillary?

Anything's still possible, but the party insiders are going to do what is best for the party for the long term, not just this presidential election. They want those new voters, they want the young voters involved, they want to gain a financial advantage in fund raising. So, how do you think the majority of these insiders will decide?

MSMWatch2008 said...

Maya Angelou: “As I wrote about Hillary recently in a praise song: ‘She is the prayer of every woman, and every man who longs for fair play, healthy families, good schools and a balanced economy.’

She says it all!

Aunt Jean said...

Amot even though I don't care for McCain he is lesser of 2 evils. There is no way that I could live with myself if I voted for obama. I'm telling you the man is evil. I will give him credit that he is a smooth talker so is satan. I really don't think he is the devil it's just he's a true menace to America and I see that very clearly. If people would take their blinders off they would probably not see him as badly as I do but at least see that he could very well cause harm to America. Jean

jpsedona said...

SD Activity since PA:

Obama: +10 new commitments
Obama: +1 switched from Hillary

Hillary: +7 new commitments
Hillary: -1 swithced to Obama

Obama now holds a 11-6 margin in SD endorsements since PA.

There are 6 add-ons being selected today: NY (4) & MD (2). An additional 5 add-ons before Tuesday: LA (1), SC (1), and IL (3). Best estimates indicate this should give Obama a 7-4 margin in these add-ons.

So, projections since PA:

Obama: +18 (64%)
Hillary: +10 (36%)

If Hillary needs about 60% of the uncommitted superdelegates, this is not a good trend.

jpsedona said...

Here is Joe Andrew's letter to other superdelegates. Pretty eye opening:

"May 1, 2008

Dear Friends:

I have been inspired.

Today I am announcing my support for Senator Barack Obama for President of the United States of America. I am changing my support from Senator Clinton to Senator Obama, and calling for my fellow Democrats across my home State of Indiana, and my fellow super delegates across the nation, to heal the rift in our Party and unite behind Barack Obama.

The hardest decisions in life are not between good and bad or right and wrong, but between two goods or two rights. That is the decision Democrats face today. We have an embarrassment of riches, but as much as we may love our candidates and revel in the political process that has brought Presidential politics to places that have not seen it in a generation, we cannot let our family affair hurt America by helping John McCain.

Here is my message, explained in this lengthy letter that I hope is perceived as a thoughtful analysis of how to save America from four more years of the misguided polices of the past: you can be for someone without being against someone else. You can unite behind a candidate and a vision for America without rejecting another candidate and their vision, because in real life, opposed to party politics, we Democrats are on the same side. The battle should not be amongst ourselves. Rather, we should focus our efforts on those who are truly on the opposite side: those who want to continue the failed policies of the last eight years, rather than bring real change to Washington. Let us come together right now behind an inspiring leader who not only has the audacity to challenge the old divisive politics, but the audacity to make us all hope for a better America.

Unite the Party Now

I believe that Bill Clinton will be remembered as one of our nation’s great Presidents, and Senator Clinton as one of our nation’s great public servants. But as much as I respect and admire them both, it is clear that a vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote to continue this process, and a vote to continue this process is a vote that assists John McCain.

I ask Hoosiers to come together and vote for Barack Obama to be our next President. In an accident of timing, Indiana has been given the opportunity to truly make a difference. Hoosiers should grab that power and do what in their heart they know is right. They should reject the old negative politics and vote for true change. Don’t settle for the tried and true and the simplistic slogans, but listen to your heart and dare to be inspired. Only a cynic would be critical of Barack Obama inspiring millions. Only the uninformed could forget that the candidate that wins in November is always the candidate that inspires millions.

I ask the leaders of our Party to come together after this Tuesday’s primary to heal wounds and unite us around a single nominee. While I was hopeful that a long, contested primary season would invigorate our Party, the polls show that the tone and temperature of the race is now hurting us. John McCain, without doing much of anything, is now competitive against both of our remaining candidates. We are doing his work for him and distracting Americans from the issues that really affect all of our lives.

We need to be talking about fixing the economy, not whose acquaintances once said what to whom. We need to be talking about stopping the attacks in Iraq, not stopping the attacks in Indiana. We need to be talking about policy, not politics.

Barack Obama is the Right Candidate for Right Now

While I am a longtime critic of our Party’s rules that created so-called super delegates, we have the rules we have and we must live with them. I am humbled and honored to be a super delegate, and I understand the seriousness of the duty it entails. I recognize that this is a difficult decision for super delegates like me, who owe so much to President Bill Clinton. It is right to be loyal, to be grateful and to be consistent. But it is also right to acknowledge the inevitability of change, right to dare to dream for a better world, and right to know what in your heart is the right thing for the future even if your friends and family disagree. Good things, just like good people, can disagree. But as Democrats, we must disagree with dignity, debate with admiration of each other, and in the end, go forward with mutual respect.

President Clinton and Vice President Gore gave me the opportunity to serve as the Chair of the Democratic Party. I pledged my loyalty to them, and I will never forget Al Gore putting ego aside, gently demurring, and simply asking me to put our country ahead of politics. It is a lesson I will remember forever, and it is what guides me now in this decision. What is best for our Party and our country is not blind loyalty, but passionate support for the candidate who can best correct the misguided policies of the last eight years.

We need a candidate who will re-invigorate the economy and keep good jobs here in America. We need a candidate who will end the war in Iraq. We need a candidate who will provide health coverage for our 45 million uninsured neighbors. We need a candidate who will end our addiction to high-priced foreign oil by investing in renewable energy here at home.

That candidate is Barack Obama.

What was best for America sixteen years ago was electing Bill Clinton. What would have been best for America eight years ago was not only electing Al Gore, which we did, but allowing him to serve as President of the United States. Imagine how the world would be different if Al Gore and not George Bush, would have been President of the United States. Let’s seize the opportunity and vote for someone who like Al Gore, was against the war from the beginning, and who brings a new energy, a new excitement, and a new politics to our country.

Let’s put things right.

Time to Act

Many will ask, why now? Why, with several primaries still remaining, with Senator Clinton just winning Pennsylvania, with my friend Evan Bayh working hard to make sure Senator Clinton wins Indiana, why switch now? Why call for super delegates to come together now to constructively pick a president?

The simple answer is that while the timing is hard for me personally, it is best for America. We simply cannot wait any longer, nor can we let this race fall any lower and still hope to win in November. June or July may be too late. The time to act is now.

I write this letter from my mom’s dining room table in Indianapolis, Indiana. Four generations of my family have argued and laughed around this table. But what I humbly believe today is that we, as Democrats and as Americans, face what Dr. King characterized and what Senator Obama reminds us is the fierce urgency of now. As a nation, we are at a critical moment and we need leaders with the character and vision to see us through the challenges at hand and those to come. I can’t guess what will happen tomorrow, so I can’t tell you what kind of experience our next President will need to have to deal with those challenges. But I can tell you what kind of character and vision they will need to have — and that is what inspires me about Barack Obama.

As Democrats, however, we risk letting this moment slip through our fingers. We risk ceding the field to the Republicans and allowing the morally bankrupt Bush Agenda to continue unabated if we do not unite behind a single candidate. Should this race continue after Indiana and North Carolina, it will inevitably become more negative. The polls already show the supporters for both candidates becoming more strident in their positions and more locked into their support. Continuing on this path would be a catastrophe, as we would inadvertently end up doing Republicans work for them. Already, instead of the audacity of hope, we suffer the audacity of one Democrat comparing John McCain favorably to another Democrat. When that happens, you know it is time for all of us to stop, take a deep breath and unite to change America.

We must act and we must act now.

The Problems of the Process: 2000 and 2008

When Al Gore got a half million more votes than George Bush in 2000, yet the Electoral College elected George Bush President, we saw the absurdity of any system that does not elect the person who gets the most votes. That is why the Democratic Party’s nomination process is flawed. I will continue to fight for a 2012 process where there are only primaries, and which ever Democrat gets the most votes becomes our nominee. Delegates should decide the party platform — voters should decide who our nominee is.

But we are struck with this absurd system for 2008, and, flawed though it may be, we must work within it without betraying the voice of the people. No amount of spin or sleight of hand can deny the fact that where there has been competition, Senator Obama has won more votes, more States and more delegates than any other candidate. Only the super delegates can award the nomination to Senator Clinton, but to do so risks doing to our Party in 2008 what Republicans did to our country in 2000. Let us be intellectually consistent and unite behind Barack Obama.

A New Era of Politics

My endorsement of Senator Obama will not be welcome news to my friends and family at the Clinton campaign. If the campaign’s surrogates called Governor Bill Richardson, a respected former member of President Clinton’s cabinet, a “Judas” for endorsing Senator Obama, we can all imagine how they will treat somebody like me. They are the best practitioners of the old politics, so they will no doubt call me a traitor, an opportunist and a hypocrite. I will be branded as disloyal, power-hungry, but most importantly, they will use the exact words that Republicans used to attack me when I was defending President Clinton.

When they use the same attacks made on me when I was defending them, they prove the callow hypocrisy of the old politics first perfected by Republicans. I am an expert on this because these were the exact tools that I mastered as a campaign volunteer, a campaign manager, a State Party Chair and the National Chair of our Party. I learned the lessons of the tough, right-wing Republicans all too well. I can speak with authority on how to spar with everyone from Lee Atwater to Karl Rove. I understand that, while wrong and pernicious, shallow victory can be achieved through division by semantics and obfuscation. Like many, I succumbed to the addiction of old politics because they are so easy.

Innuendo is easy. The truth is hard.

Sound bites are easy. Solutions are hard.

Spin is simple and easy. Struggling with facts is complicated and hard.

I have learned the hard way that you can love the candidate and hate the campaign. My stomach churns when I think how my old friends in the Clinton campaign will just pick up the old silly Republican play book and call in the same old artificial attacks and bombardments we have all heard before.

Yet, despite the simple and overwhelming pressure to do anything and everything to win, Barack Obama has risen above it all and demanded a new brand of politics. People flock to Senator Obama because they are rejecting the hyperbole of the old politics. The past eight years of George Bush have witnessed a retreat from substance, science, and reason in favor spin, cronyism and ideology. Barack Obama has dared not only to criticize it, as all Democrats do, but to actually reject playing the same old game. And in doing so, he has shown us a new path to victory.

Uniting for Victory

The simple fact is that Democrats need to be united in November to win, and Clinton supporters, in particular, will be vital to victory. We will not convince Clinton supporters to join the Obama campaign, however, by personally criticizing them. We must welcome everyone and avoid doing Republican work for them. It is therefore incumbent on all of us who once supported Senator Clinton to welcome the thousands who should now switch their support to Senator Obama. Similarly, a necessary part of the healing process for our Party is for those who supported Senator Obama early to have the grace and good sense to broaden the tent and welcome newcomers into the fold.

The old players of the old political game will claim that I am betraying my old friend Senator Evan Bayh by switching my support to Senator Obama. I believe that Evan Bayh would be a great President, and therefore a great Vice President. I will continue to argue that he would be a great choice to be on the ticket with Barack Obama. Evan Bayh is uniquely positioned as a successful governor with executive experience who is now a U.S. Senator with foreign policy experience and who is young enough to not undercut the message of vitality and hard work that Barack Obama represents. Part of healing the Party may be to have a Clinton supporter on the ticket, let alone someone who would help with Indiana, Ohio and the moderate Midwest in the general election.

Being for Evan Bayh, however, does not mean that you have to be for Hillary Clinton. The important message to Hoosiers, and to super delegates, is that being for someone does not mean that you agree 100 percent of the time. Regardless of whether Evan Bayh and I support different candidates, I will support Evan Bayh.

We must reject the notion that we have to beat the Republicans at their own game — or even that the game has to be played at all. It is so easy for all of us involved — candidates, campaigns and the media — to focus on the process and the horse race that we forget why we got into it in the first place. Barack Obama has had the courage to talk about real issues, real problems and real people. Let’s pause for a second in the midst of the cacophony of the campaign circus and listen.

In 1992, I was inspired by Bill Clinton because he promised, and delivered, a framework for addressing America’s problems. President Clinton ended a long-running left-right debate in our Party, and inspired millions. He drew giant crowds and spoke passionately for a generation of Americans who often disenfranchised and rarely participated in governing. Today, Barack Obama does the same thing. Winners redefine the game. Winners connect with the American people and not only feel their pain, but inspire them to take action to heal the underlying cause. Barack Obama is that kind of candidate and that kind of leader, which is why he will win in November.

Welcoming Everyone into the Party

We face significant challenges as a nation and as a Party, but time and again, Americans have shown the resilience and determination necessary to overcome even the highest obstacle. We have a difficult road ahead, but I have complete confidence that Barack Obama is the candidate who can lead our Party to victory and the President who can guide us to even greater heights.

Many Democrats know me for one short speech I gave over and over again in the 2000 Presidential campaign. That speech was about welcoming people into our Party and welcoming undecided voters to our campaign to elect Al Gore. Today, we need to welcome Clinton supporters, undecided voters, and all Americans to join Barack Obama’s cause to fight for a better America. My speech ended with these words, which are even more relevant today:

The difference between the Republican Party and the Democratic Party is that you are always welcome in the Democratic Party.

Because Democrats don’t care if you are black or white or brown or a nice shade of green, you are welcome in the Democratic Party.

We don’t care if you pray in a church or a synagogue or a temple or a mosque, or just before math tests, you are welcome in the Democratic Party.

We don’t care if you are young or old, or just don’t want to tell your age, you are welcome in the Democratic Party.

We don’t care what gender you are, or what gender you want to hold hands with; as long as you want to hold hands, you are welcome in the Democratic Party.

We don’t care about the size of your bank account, just the size of your heart; and we don’t care where you are today, just where you dream you want to be tomorrow.

That is your Democratic Party.

That is Barack Obama’s Democratic Party.

That is the Party that will win in November.

Sincerely,

Joe Andrew"

Joe Andrew letter

Jim said...

jp,
IMHO It would be preferable if you simply posted a link to long diatribes and a short comment.
This blog has become a wasteland of propaganda post from both sides with very little content.

Aunt Jean said...

Ipsedona if we wanted to read that back stabbing SOBs lies we would read it ourself instead of you taking over the whole screen. To say that Hillary is the cause for this elections dragging on is down right stupid. It's all the trash that is coming out [believe me there is more] about obama. It's people in power that that dumb SOB andrews that we might see enough election happen like happened between Gore and Bush. When that happens there will no longer be a democrat party to speak of. Reasons because you have so many people [not all] in the SD group that can be bought one way or the other. That is a terrible SHAME!!!!!It is a terrible unjust treatment of the American people.I just wonder how much or what obama offered to andrews to get him to change his mind. It just puts McCain that much closer to being the next president because it will make a lot of Hillary supporters mad as HE##. They will see it as a back stabbing move. So obama supporters reap what you sow if obama gets the nomination expect enough 4 years of a Republican in the WH. Jean

Jim said...

The last few days, I respond to one of these posts by Obama supporters with a question and no one replies, with anything close to an answer.
If you can't defend a post, please do not make it.
This is not a "Bulletin board"

Subodh said...

If it takes Obama 20 years to notice that his pastor is a traitorous, racist nut-job, it will probably take him his full term of office to realize that the U.S. has been invaded and subdued by al-Qaida. Let's just hope President Obama pays closer attention during national security briefings than he did during 20 years of the Rev. Wright's church services.

The only good news for the Obama campaign this week is that Obama admitted that his relationship with Rev. Wright is "a legitimate political issue," which at least makes him smarter than John McCain, who just last week denounced the North Carolina Republicans for an ad mentioning Obama's raving lunatic pastor.
What gets me is that this guy attended this church for twenty years, was married in this Church by this Demon pastor, his daughters were baptized by this demon pastor, and he is stil being supported by Christians.

When my two Sons were baptized it was a gift form JESUS CHRIST. None of us would have put our own children in front of a demon, and let him curse them with man made doctrines.

What is it that BO has been saying for the past few week? Oh, yes. Rev Wrights comments were taken out of context. Oh, really BO, just like the comments that Imus made about those girl basketball players was taken out of context. Remember, BO you jumped on his case immediately, with out considering or knowing what else he said at that time. But that's OK, right??
BO you are a racist coward and so is your wife.


Joe Andrew just endorsed Obama.

So, he is proud of being a traitor and showing absolutely no loyalty? And he is proud to endorse a guy who wouldn't put his hand over his heart during the pledge of allegiance to the American flag, and attended a church for 20 years with a philosophy that he obviously believes in....This guy and Obama are both losers...they should join together.

Obama must have really promised this guy a good spot in the Administration. Afterall, that's how Illinois politicians work. When the going gets tough, they pull out their wallets and buy votes, pad the polls with "ghost" voters of people who are already dead or people who's addresses are nothing but abandoned buildings and promise cabinet positions to jerks like Joe Andrew in exchange for endorsements. Obama comes from a culture of dirty politics, and it shows. Sad to say, I'd put Bush back in the White House before I'd vote for this hypocrite.

jpsedona said...

Subodh, Jean,

What I found unconventional about Joe Andrew's flip was that he says that he didn't contact either campaign before doing that. At least Richardson was man enough to call Hillary before announcing and take the heat. If you've had a change of mind and you should have respect enough for the candidate you supported to call them first.

Aunt Jean said...

Subodh I do understand fully where you are coming from about Bush. It's very sad indeed that it's come to this when we need everydemocrat to pull togather.All because of Obama and I really don't give a SH## what lunacy obama supporters come up with!!!!!!!! Jean

Aunt Jean said...

ipsedona just shows his low class. Of course obama supporters won't see it that way or at least most of them won't. Jean

Jim said...

jp,
"What I found unconventional about Joe Andrew's flip......"

Logical observation.

countjellybean said...

Hey Tyler, thanks for dropping by. Long time no see. As you can see, things haven't improved. But I do appreciate the efforts you have made to elevate the level of debate on this thread.

jp, I appreciate the post. Like you, I am neither a Hillary supported nor an Obama, and new information is always welcome.

Speaking of new information, there have been material changes from the information at electoral-vote.com over the past few days. If the numbers change I will post them.

Mark said...

Why all the hate on this board? All this talk about voting GOP if Obama is the nominee is very disheartening. (That, or it sounds like repubilcan trolls pumping one candidate over another)

Jim said...

Open question: Will Obama's slide in the latest polls continue and if so, where will he bottom out?
Real Clear Politics Latest Polls
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html

Will he loose NC?

jpsedona said...

Deb,

Jason Rae has been listed as an Obama delegate for some time.

Aunt Jean said...

Mark I really don't care if anyone believes me or not I'm a 54 year old white have never voted for a republician for President. The reason and believe me [I don't like McCain] the only reason I would vote for McCain is if obama is the other choose. My vote will not go for someone that I believe will do great harm to the America I love and live in. Jean

Yamaka said...

To the New Judas Joe Andrew:

Another Brutus among us.

Joe, you have been bought by the BigMoneyBags of BHO's campaign.

You don't believe in the Democratic Process: All Votes are important and ALL States are important.

In a very close fight, the most experienced candidate will emerge as the winner. You don't want that process to go to completion. You want to short-circuit and undermine the entire process. You are a crap and piece for shameless self-interest: how much money did BHO give you?

BHO is NOT Electable. Some of the reasons:

1. Only about 14.5 million Black and affluent hyper educated crowd is for this Manchurian Candidate.

Vast majority of non-partisan Americans (60-80 million) don't even heard of him: they ask whether he is an African or an American. They wonder whether this Skinny Guy with a Funny name is related to Osama, because Obama is very similar to this well known terrorist!

2. He is terribly inexperienced in National Politics. He was a Part Time Legislator in IL, nearly "Present" for 300 times. He sat in the US Senate seat hardly for 6 months. He can narrate ALL the problems we have in this country; hardly he has any ability or skill to solve any of the major issues facing us.

He is just a Chicago Black Politician who can give fuzzy talk using a teleprompter. That is it. Is this a talent that we need in this country at this juncture?

3. His policies are horrendous:
a) He wants to give drivers' license to illegals, condoning illegality.
b) He wants to raise tax - he will lift the income cap on SS taxation.
c) He will make Healthcare voluntary; probably will make SS and Medicare voluntary.
d) His understanding of the economy is sub-standard. He does not know how tax rate affects tax revenue.
e) He is financially very insane -he panders to every group and promises them tax break, w/o knowing how he will pay for it.

4. His associations with Wright, Rezko, Rashid Khalidi, Ayers are extremely dangerous - they go to his poor character, judgment and credibility.

5. On the other hand, HRC is a well tested well known candidate for most of America. As a sparring partner of Bill Clinton, she has the experience how to get back the economy of the 1990s, starting from DAY ONE.

Your switching to BHO is a testament that your heart is NOT in the best interest of America or the Democratic Party. You have been bought out by BigMoneyBags, that's it.

You want really John McCain to win the WH and the Congress in a landslide in the General Election.

That will very well happen, if the remaining SDs follow your foot print.

Shame on you, and others who are pushing for Illegitimacy in the Party.

Count ALL votes: the Legitimate Number is 2208 delegates, not the bogus 2025.

Vote for Hillary for a REAL POSITIVE CHANGE.

Cheers.

vwis said...

akamay

I finally, figured out why Bill doesn't want her to be president. He wants to go out while he's still on top. Like many sports stars choose to do. I noticed a change in him after the Superbowl; he spent it with Sen. Richardson. Richardson endorsed Obama shortly after. It amazing what comes out after a few too many beers. Still respect Bill even if he drinks or perhaps smokes everyone needs an outlet. Personally, I can do without either.

I think him and Hillary need to have some time together and have a serious talk after IN and NC. She may have supported him and this is her turn, but this is different. She needs to listen to him and then decide.

Aunt Jean said...

ipsedona if Jason Rae is an obama supporter well what do you expect all young people even my self when I was his age made some foolish mistakes. To begin with I think who every let him get into a position to become a SD was out and out plain stupid.A SD should be someone with a little age and be in politics at least they will probably know the people that is running for office. He has no idea what life is about. I'm not trying to insult the young voters just being real here.I'm sorry but he is a kid and has never voted in a presidental election before. Jean

Emit R Detsaw said...

Joe Andrew - another smart man with an open mind!

Jim said...

Mark,
I think it is just posturing. I am a Texas voter, so If I were to switch, it would have no effect.
The only Democrat with any chance of carrying this state is Clinton and that would be astounding.

jpsedona said...

Jim,

Yes, it's still possible for Obama to loose NC. It all depends on the undecided which remain in the 7-10% range. Obama's support has clearly eroded since PA with Wright popping up all over the news.

However, in NC, most of the current polls were conducted prior to Obama's press conference. I think that the Wright controversy has reduced the expectations in NC but is probably not going to give Hillary a win.

Based on distribution of delegates at the district level, I would be surprised if he did not have a sizeable margin at the district level because of the demographics.

Based on the polls to date, Hillary's at her highest level of support in NC (40-45% range) while Obama's generally holding to the high 40's.

Insider Advantage (which I consider to be an outlier) shows Hillary ahead in NC by 2 pts. They have consistantly shown their undecided counts in mid teens since late March. I don't believe the undecided are that high in NC as evidenced by all the other polls undecided numbers. I think Obama's lead is under 10% at this point with 7-10% undecided.

In the statewide vote, it's possible that she could overcome Obama if there's a backlash over his denouncing Wright.

But I would suspect at this time that Obama will still come out of NC with a 15 delegate margin or better over Hillary.

I am also a bit surprised that the mainstream polling organizations have done so little polling.

Yamaka said...

vwis:

IMHO, Bill Clinton loves America so much that he strongly believes that HRC is the best in the field of three left.

He also believes Obama is just another politician from Chicago - he does NOT have name recognition in most of America (nearly 80 million voters have NOT participated in the Primary - they will vote in the GE). She is well qualified and well tested. Her life has been a open book for a long time. Her election will break the Glass Ceiling over the women of America. Good for our daughters!

Including MI and FL the total delegate count is nearly even. But HRC has a net of 122k popular votes more, which will improve to nearly 400K by June 5th, when she could very well have more total delegates. The game will be over then.

She has won most of the large MUST win primaries for a Democrat seeking the Nomination.

BHO has won most of the small Caucuses that normally goes to GOP in the GE. Beside, he said he believes that " the Republican party is the party of Ideas".

What legitimacy has he got in seeking the Nomination of the Democratic Party? None, zero, zilch, nah, natta.

Let Joe Andrew, Richardson, Kennedy, Kerry - all perennial losers - move to BHO's tent. They don't belong to the Winners Side, anyway.

I want to know where Edwards goes? Elizabeth is for Hillary. I hope she convinces him, because on Universal Healthcare, they both are identical. BHO is not.

:-)

Aunt Jean said...

emit r detsaw and chickens fly. I guess you believe that if you believe that Andrew's a smart man. Jean

vwis said...

akamay,

Regarding 2208, not sure that that is a good argument. Even if Hillary got 100% of all the remaining states she still would not reach 2000. She still would need 24 SDs. There would be a ground swell of opposition if he dropped out of a race he is leading in. McCain is still only getting 75% running unopposed. At 75% she would only end up 1902.

I more likely scenario is that we meet in 2208. Good Luck on that. However, with biotechnological advances maybe. Work on it for me. OK.

jpsedona said...

UPDATED:

SD Activity since PA:

Obama: +11 new commitments
Obama: +1 switched from Hillary

Hillary: +7 new commitments
Hillary: -1 swithced to Obama

Obama now holds a 12-6 margin in SD endorsements since PA.

There are 6 add-ons being selected today: NY (4) & MD (2). An additional 5 add-ons before Tuesday: LA (1), SC (1), and IL (3). Best estimates indicate this should give Obama a 7-4 margin in these add-ons.

So, projections since PA:

Obama: +19 (66%)
Hillary: +10 (34%)

If Hillary needs about 60% of the uncommitted superdelegates, this is not a good trend.

Emit R Detsaw said...

Aunt Jean, not sure what has happened to you to make you so bitter, but I'll pray for you.

Not sure why you think Obama is such an evil person. Open your heart and mind. Look and see the good in people, not the negative.

Jim said...

jp,
Tommorow will clarify the NC trend.
I predict Clinton will deliver a sucker punch on Monday to Obama as far as SD's go.
He has been jabbing her with SD trickle of committments and she has been blocking some of those with her own.
IMHO,The haymaker will come Monday, straight to his glass chin.
Thats "Rocky" style Politics.

Aunt Jean said...

emit r detsaw have you not watched all the trash that has come out about obama and him sitting in the pews listening to a white hating bigot. WHAT IS WRONG ARE YOU THAT BLIND AND DEAF!!!!!!!!!! There is nothing wrong with me I am able to see and hear the truth. About praying to God about me that's ok I already have a relationship with God. You had better pray for yourself. One of the people that wants to put a man in there that wants to do AMERICA so much harm and to foolish to see that!!!!!

Mark said...

The level of intra-party hate is astounding. I will suck it up and vote for whoever is the nominee of the party. I hope you look inside yourselves and put aside some short-term differences.

It might serve you all well to take a look at this piece:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10010.html

Leah said...

jpsedona-

Thank you very much for posting the letter from Andrews.

He seems to be a man of courage and thoughtful insight. I wouldn't be too quick to judge him for not calling Hillary first since we don't really know everything that has taken place behind the scenes.

Anyway thank you again for posting.

Ciao,
Leah

Aunt Jean said...

emit r detsaw I forgot something it's to hard to see good in people when there is nothing there but evil intent. As far as me being bitter I don't have time for that nonsense.I have to many great things and people in my life! Jean

RobH said...

The reactions of Aunt Jean, Jim, Subodh/Yamaka, to Jim Andrews withdrawal of support for Hillary are utterly, utterly predictable.

Drama, drama, drama.

Here on the one hand we have a thoughtful man, a LONG TIME CLINTON SUPPORTER and true insider, wrestling with his conscience and arriving at a tough decision. And taking the time to thoughtfully, GENUINELY, and DECENTLY lay out his thought process and arguements.

The reaction from our favorite, frenzied "Hill-way or no-way" supporters? Hysteria, name calling:

"New Judas, back stabbing SOB, jerk, traitor"

Genuine and decent, in their turn? No, apparently that's not required of them.

Guys (and gal), c'mon. Listen to yourselves. Read your own posts. If you ever pause to wonder why some are not so enamored w/ HRC, you might consider the impact on neutral observers of your posts. Do you believe that tone might influence anyone to join you?

Aunt Jean said...

Leah this is coming from someone that is suppose to be prim and proper how funny!!!lol lol. You are a fake. You are one weird person. Jean

jpsedona said...

Jim,

"Tommorow will clarify the NC trend.
I predict Clinton will deliver a sucker punch on Monday to Obama as far as SD's go.
He has been jabbing her with SD trickle of committments and she has been blocking some of those with her own.
IMHO,The haymaker will come Monday, straight to his glass chin.
Thats "Rocky" style Politics."

You could be correct but the visual I got when reading this was Hillary saying something like "You should see Obama's knuckles, I just beat the heck out of them with my head". That's my Rocky visual...

Tyler said...

Thanks, Aunt Jean and countjellybean.

count -- you are correct. Most people here seem more interested in promoting destructive viewpoints than constructive ones. I suspect that a majority of the Clinton support here comes from Republicans in disguise.

It's incomprehensible to me that an intelligent Democrat could consider voting for continuing the Bush Administration's policies, either on economic or international grounds, or in judicial appointments. And make no mistake, John McCain will continue the Bush Administration's policies. That's as close to a absolute fact as you'll find in politics.

For those of you who struggle with the choice of the "other" Democrat vs. McCain, remember this:

You can vote for the Democrat with liberal tendencies, or the Republican with fascist ones. It's that clear a choice.

And always remember this.

Yamaka said...

vwis:

"Regarding 2208, not sure that that is a good argument. Even if Hillary got 100% of all the remaining states she still would not reach 2000. She still would need 24 SDs"

My thesis all along is - the DNC should say this:

What candidates said and did at the beginning of the campaign is immaterial at this point to the fairness process.

Peoples of FL and MI did not do anything wrong; they just obeyed their State Law and went to the polls. The implementation of the Date Rule was very poorly done by the Officials. Therefore, ALL States will be in play - thus the Total Delegates needed for Nomination is 2208, period.

No candidate can achieve this w/o SDs, we know that for a long time.

Yes, HRC needs a good chunk of SDs, and she will get them on her merits of winning OH PA TX and other large MUST win primaries for a Democrat.

However, in the event SDs put him over 2208, the Legitimate Number, then I will concede the Process has been fair and legitimate.

That's my point as far as the Process is concerned. Americans must see it as simply legitimate!

Vote for Hillary, the First Woman POTUS.
Cheers.

Aunt Jean said...

robh WHAT A JOKE DO YOU HEAR ME LAUGHING LOL LOL LOL !!! If you think I haven't looked and listened to this man and I don't like him and even more so after this trash came out about him. So it is an informed opinion not spur of the moment. So get real but obama supporter or most have that superior attitude and think that they are right about everything. It makes me want to puke . So stop with it.!! Jean

Yamaka said...

"I suspect that a majority of the Clinton support here comes from Republicans in disguise".

Totally incorrect.

I am going to my State Convention on June 6th at Austin, standing up for Hillary.

Am I a Republican? Absurd.

Remember: Dubya said If you are not with us then you are with the enemy?

That kind of nonsense this is.

We are fighting for Legitimacy in the Process.

We are fighting for getting the most Electable Candidate for the GE. For we don't want to lose the WH AND the Congress in 2009!!!

Is this hard to understand?

:-)

Aunt Jean said...

tyler really and truly it doesn't matter a hoot what you think. If you want to believe that we are really republicians [which I know I'm not] that is you're right. That is the first thing that obama supporters think it's really kind of funny because we see obama for the man he is [ the man that wants to destroy America] >Jean

jpsedona said...

Yamaka,

I know that you want (need?) the number to be 2208. How would you feel if all the votes in MI & FL were counted / delegates seated, but each delegate received only 1/2 a vote? Would THAT be counting all the votes?

Jim said...

jp,
"You could be correct but the visual I got when reading this was Hillary saying something like "You should see Obama's knuckles, I just beat the heck out of them with my head". That's my Rocky visual... "

Pretty accurate to date. She is pretty bloodied alright.
He can't put her away.

Latest Gallop Poll, He has lost 15 points in 2 weeks. Is the tide really turning?

Emit R Detsaw said...

Aunt Jean, you don't know me very well - thank goodness!

I like to take the time to fully investigate. In the case of the Trinity Church and Rev Wright, that meant listening to full sermons and looking at the good or bad that the church does. I'll have to tell you, the majority of the sound bites are taken completely out of context. In fact, with the 9/11 comments he was quoting a poitician. That sermon was about Americans and people coming together to help each other. There have been many people come forward and state that the church was not like that when they attended. If you can find me a video or proof that Obama was in the pews the days anything anti-american was being said, I'ld like to research that, but I haven't come across any of those.

That being said, what Rev Wright said this past weekend was way out in left field. As people age, some change to more angry and bitter stances and let their voices be heard when they should just go away.

If you have researched what Obama has done, where he came from, what he hope for America, you would have a totally different perspective. That's the great thing about America - you get to hold and express your opinion. I just disagree with yours. ;o)

RobH said...

Hi Jean,

Classy comeback.

No, don't think I'm superior or right about everything, just think we could use an elevated tone here.
More reason and debate, and less name calling.

We're all on the same team, arent't we?

Jim said...

robh,
Good suggestion.

Yamaka said...

"but each delegate received only 1/2 a vote? Would THAT be counting all the votes?"

jp:

This will NOT give 2208. Will it?

By giving 1/2 you penalize the Voters, which I don't want to do.

As Gov Dean said, the voters of IM and FL did not do anything wrong. The Officials/Politicians did!

Therefore, give full votes and delegates. The Legitimate Number is 2208.

Too bad, BHO removed his name in MI, which was his right.

jpsedona said...

Yamaka,

""but each delegate received only 1/2 a vote? Would THAT be counting all the votes?"

jp:

This will NOT give 2208. Will it?

By giving 1/2 you penalize the Voters, which I don't want to do.

As Gov Dean said, the voters of IM and FL did not do anything wrong. The Officials/Politicians did!

Therefore, give full votes and delegates. The Legitimate Number is 2208.

Too bad, BHO removed his name in MI, which was his right."

So you are NOT for counting every vote. You are NOT for seating delegates in proportion to the results in those primaries. You are ONLY looking to seat the delegates in accordance to what is an advantage to your candidate.

This is why there's been no resolution to the issue between the two campaigns and DNC. This is why FL & MI are looking for a compromise.

And, there will be a compromise. The compromise at best will provide minimal advantage to either candidate.

Tyler said...

Aunt Jean -- did you understand my post? Your response indicates that you either didn't read it or didn't understand it.

Aunt Jean said...

robh yes I believe that we should be on the same team but I canot and will not suoport someone who I believe that will cause the down fall of America as we see it. I'm sorry to say but it makes me not only mad but sad to see people be foolish and that is the only word that I can think of support a man like that. It is a sad day in history and really makes me want to cry! Jean

Yamaka said...

emit:

You seem to have it both ways.

Wright is the same man who gave the NAACP talk, the National Press club speech and all the sermons he gave in the Church, where BHO attended for 20 long summers and winters.

The churchgoers of TUCC all admire Wright including BHO and Michelle (up until perhaps yesterday, for political convenience).

In order to gain Street Credibility as a Black, HE went to Wright asked to be baptized by him. HE wanted him to be his spiritual mentor and 'Guru'. Likewise, when he needed monetary help, HE went to Rezko.
HE went to shake hands with Ayers, and HE went to hug Rashid Khalidi.

All this underscores his poor character, judgment and credibility.

Yesterday, on CNN, Michelle refused to open up and talk about Wright! Because, their Double Talk becomes very evident. They like their Church and Wright and his preachings. But they don't want him to say publicly what he believes in, because most Americans hate their belief and political/religious philosophy!

You cannot hide for too long. Truth will emerge now or later. Sooner is better than later for the Democrats.

Take this from one of the many 527 Ads in the Fall.

Two turbaned pictures of Osama and Obama on two ends. The Question asked is:

"Do you want to risk your country for Obama or Osama? They ARE the same, nearly.

Vote for McCain, the Veteran War Hero for National Security and American Prosperity."

American voters (60 million or so not voted in the Primary) WILL NOT take this kind of risk, period.

Vote for Hillary the First Woman POTUS.

Cheers.

Yamaka said...

"You are ONLY looking to seat the delegates in accordance to what is an advantage to your candidate".

It so happened that HRC won big in both MI and FL (surrogates of both candidates campaigned tooth and nail there).

That has been the choice of the voters. BHO did not get the nod of the people.

We say just respect the will of the voters. Nothing more.

:-)

jpsedona said...

TOMHILLARYCLINTON,

The Daily News article only indicates that DiNapoli and Cuomo were committed to Hillary.

However, TPM is reporting that her campaign is indicating that all 4 our endorsing her (although as of this posting this has not been posted on her website).

TPM Article

jpsedona said...

Yamaka,

When FL & MI do compromise on something that's different than 2208, what are going to say then? That she was robbed and that her popular vote total in MI was overwhelming and that the nomination is being stolen from her?

RobH said...

Jean,

No one should have to cry as a result of this process, tho' it is enough to age us all, isn't it?

I have a question for you, if you'll consider it. It is something that has perplexed me all along, about really singular, really committed Obama detractors. Since you are one, could you give it a shot for me?

You said:
"I canot and will not suoport someone who I believe will cause the down fall of America..."

In contrast:

As of this moment, 14 Dem Governors (56% of those declared), 18 Dem Senators (58% of those declared), and 79 Dem Representatives (50% of those declared) - that is to say, pretty big actual numbers (and clear majaorities) of our elected senior party management - all endorse Senator Obama.

My question(s): What do they see that you don't? I don't want to believe they're all cultists or la-la land kool-aid drinkers. Are they? What do you see, that they're missing?

Thanks.

Leah said...

I am so sick and tired of listening to the Hillary fanatics go on and on about MI and Florida.

If both candidates had campaigned in those states the margins would have been much different. This is a fact. Just look at the polls other states before campaigning took place and then after.

MI and FL were told BEFORE the elections that the votes would NOT count - and ALL the candidates knew it along with the voters. Thousands and Thousands of would-be voters that knew the votes would not count stayed home and did not vote. We can not disenfranchise the voters that did not vote because they were told the election would NOT count.

Yamaka your argument is lame and the DNC also knows it is was not a fair election.

Democrats MUST play by the rules of the DNC. You can't change the rules to suit your candidate after the game has already started.
_____________________

Also, I have not seen any Obama supporters call people names on this thread.

I don't understand why some of the Hillary supporters cannot post their opinions on this thread without name calling and hateful words.

Dave in NC said...

...and as the Clinton candle grows dimmer, the rancor among the rats on her sinking ship explodes.

Civility wanes, the blather gets lengthier and ever more boring.

That's partly why I haven't posted of late.

However, this profound quote from an earlier post sums up my absence:

"Those who talk don't know.
Those who know don't talk."

Speaking of Aunt Jean and Yamaka; you're entitled to your opinions, but you are on display as 2 classic examples of why Texas cannot pull together to be a blue state in spite of being majority Democrat.

Your lengthy hateful, illogical, and totally incorrect diatribes are the type of attitude that millions point to when asked why they are Republicans.

The only reason the Clinton posters here are NOT worse for America than George Bush is simply because YOU DO NOT HAVE POWER.

My support for Obama is an effort to take power away from the Evil, regardless of whether that Evil is Bush or Clinton.

Cheers and smile for the first good Democrat in the WH since Carter, the first smart Democrat in the WH since Kennedy.

Change in '08! Gobama '08

ed iglehart said...

Rob,

"The reactions of Aunt Jean, Jim, Subodh/Yamaka, to Jim Andrews withdrawal of support for Hillary are utterly, utterly predictable."

And he predicted them in his announcement this morning.

xx
ed

Jim said...

Boy, talk about lack of credibility. A qoute from Joe on February 13, 2008 5:22 p.m.

Joe Andrew
“I want to vote for Hillary Clinton, don’t get me wrong,” said Andrew, a former chairman of the national Democratic Party. “My commitment to her is profound, but I would be troubled if either she or Barack Obama actually became the nominee because superdelegates decided, opposed to actual voters going to the polls and pulling the lever.”

Doing what he says?
Flip-Flop. Killed Kerry

jpsedona said...

For those of you with any interest in the Guam Caucus on Saturday, they will actually elect 8 delegates. Each delegate will get 1/2 vote at the convention. In fact, I think 4 delegates will be men, 4 female.

For the first time, a presidential candidate opened a campaign office on Guam when Obama opened his office there.

In an effort to pander to the Guam caucus voters, Bill Clinton participated on a Guam radio show Thursday.

"On the radio, Mr. Clinton left open the possibility that he, Chelsea Clinton or Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton herself could pay a visit to the island, which is home to several military bases.
'Whether she can, I think, depends in part on the demands of North Carolina and Indiana,' Mr. Clinton said, according to The Pacific Daily News, referring to contests scheduled for May 6."

If Hillary, Bill or Chelsea were flying to Guam that would have made the news. Bill made this statement knowing full well that wasn't a consideration or romtely truthful. Since it's Friday there, one of the Clintons would need to be hoping a plane NOW to be there before Saturday since Guam is across the International date line.

Yamaka said...

"We can not disenfranchise the voters that did not vote because they were told the election would NOT count".

Listen to Gov Dean, who said that "the Official/Politicians screwed this big time, NOT the voters of MI and FL, who just obeyed their State Law, period. Their votes MUST be counted, and their delegates MUST be seated".

In US we have 220 million eligible voters. Hardly 55% go to polls in the GE, and only less than half of that to the Primaries. Others don't take interest to go to the polls for hundred different reasons.

We cannot worry about those who chose NOT to go to the polls.

States should worry about those who GO to polls.

That has been the law of the land for 200 years.

Treat MI and FL the same way you treat any other Primary State, period.


:-)

Aunt Jean said...

emit r detsaw I would be willing to say that the sound bites didn't tell the whole story. But the man is living in the 60's and you can't make me believe that he hasn';t lived there for quite awhile. As far as older people comment. It's take it you are young. You were probably still sh##ing yellow when I was trying to make a living. As far as the comment about getting older and bitter I don't believe that I am bitter life is hard no doubt but it's what you do with that hardship that counts.Young [won't insult you and say kids] people now days live off their parents or at the very least help from their parents up into their later 20's.Plus most are not taught to respect their elders. Well I was supporting myself at the age of 15 years and 8 months lied about my age on 1 st job.Now the reason I'm making this point is they want to control the outcome without having the experience of living life on their on. They have not been taught manners all they have been taught is money grows on trees and if I get short of money or get in trouble mom and dad will bail me out. Blacks always wanting something because they think it's due them. I'm not saying the tide isn't turning and to judge a man by his color instead of his merits isn't wrong because it is. We are all american and equal in Gods eyes and that is the way it should be. I'm also not saying that blacks haven't had a bad rap because they have and that is more than just terrible it's unamerican. On job appt. it shouldn't have what nationality you are hiring someone should be based on merits nothing else. Do they not bleed like us cry and hurt like us sounds just like a humun just like we all are. So people on here think I'm being racist when I won't support obama that has NOTHING to do with it. I don't trust the man he has to many unsavory friends and assoc. He talks to smooth and in my life I have found that people that talk to smoothly are usual up to no good so I will truth my instinsts and NOT vote for him!!!! Jean

ed iglehart said...

Dave,

Thanks for the quotecheck!

"the first smart Democrat in the WH since Kennedy."

Carter already won that award.

知 者 不 言。 言 者 不 知。

ed

Jim said...

Dave,
You condem
n and then do the same as those you diss.
Gy the way, how is the tide in NC?
Is it going out and sucking Obama with it?
I already can taste that beer.

Aunt Jean said...

Dave in NC You don't know cr## you just think you do Jean

Dave in NC said...

Jim,

I haven't said anything hateful or non-factual.

It's not the taste of the beer that matters, it's WHO PAID FOR IT.

Keep your wallet close by, my friend. :)

Dave in NC said...

Jean,

I know how to select meaningful words that don't have to be ##'d.

Yamaka said...

"the first good Democrat in the WH since Carter, the first smart Democrat in the WH since Kennedy".

Did you ask yourself why such a long drought for 30 years?

IMHO, the vast majority of the American electorate is in the middle either as Center Left or Center Right.

(Dubya truly was a Center Right candidate; because of the 9/11 he was hijacked by the NeoCons to the FAR RIGHT! During the Primary and GE he WAS considered by most Americans as near the Center, hence elected over Gore and Kerry!)

FAR LEFT winning the WH is just impossible! BHO is no different.

Learn from the Maestro Bill Clinton, the fact of American Politics!

Dave in NC said...

ed,

...and how was THAT Kool-aid?

Dave in NC said...

Yamaka,

I think my post CLEARLY answered your question.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us" -Pogo

Aunt Jean said...

Dave how is this you say emtpy words just like someone elso I know have any clue here's a clue[he doesn't have the best interest of the American people at heart. He is in this race for totally self serving reasons. He's black and white and emtpy all over.His name starts with an O for OH NO!!!!! Jean

Jim said...

Dave,
I do appreciate your responses. You stay focused and lucid.
Not to be "sexist", but the ladies get caught up in "cat fights"(horrible analogy) and posting small books.
I am really terrible, folks.

Dave in NC said...

Jean,

My words are not empty, just ignored.

What's that adjective for people who ignore things?

BTW, most of your words are "full of puddin'"... to about everyone

Peace :)

Emit R Detsaw said...

Much better Jean, but in my honest opinion you are misjudging a great person (Obama). He will be the next President and then you will see. ;o)

And just so you know, I am a card carrying member of the AARP, retired Military, used to be living in the can't figure out how to vote State of Florida, and now live in the Vote too often Texas. I am not a Democrate or a Republican. I have been registered Independent since the 70's.

My wife, that is approaching 60, is energized to vote for the first time in over 28 years. And what has her excited? To vote for Obama. The change the country needs.

What a country.....

Dave in NC said...

Jim,

You're right that's a horrible analogy, my six cats are offended. :)

Aunt Jean said...

Leah not only are you blind but I guess you only read post from Hillary supporters you are so catty get a life.Obama people are rude [or most are and very insulting just like you.Like I said before your just sly with it. But as a woman I understand. Men do not understand the way a womans mind works or how sly and catty they can be. Jean

Aunt Jean said...

Dave yeah right keep on thinking that if it make you feel good. Jean

Leah said...

Yamaka said: "We cannot worry about those who chose NOT to go to the polls."
________________

This is a main reason there is still conflict about seating MI and FL - the voters BEFORE the election were told the election did NOT count. When voters are told the election will not count and then people do not vote that is called DISENFRANCHISMENT - all citizens must have the right to vote in a FAIR election - MI and FL were not fair elections.

You are so close minded that you can't see the facts that are before your eyes?

Aunt Jean said...

emit I have respect for you and your military back ground. Two of my brothers served in the military one in nam and the other over seas. Now I have a great nephew over there fighting. I still don't agree with you about obama. Doesn't it bother you that he sat in a church for 16 to 20 years and listen to that trash. Don't you believe that he believes some of that. Not only that are you not concerned about who his friends and assocs.are. I don't understand someone with your back ground would want to vote for that man. Jean

Leah said...

Aunt Jean said: "Blacks always wanting something because they think it's due them."
_______________


Aunt Jean, the more you talk the less credibility you have.

I have no use for people that stereotype others by the color of their skin.

OBAMA / Kathleen Sebelius '08

Aunt Jean said...

Jim shame on you lol Jean

Aunt Jean said...

Leah I guess you didn't read all my post so before you say anything read all of it and quit being so hateful. Jean

Aunt Jean said...

Excuse me all you posters that I'm going to offend please forgive me for what I'm going to say. Hey LEAH the more you talk the bigger BIT## you become. Jean

Emit R Detsaw said...

Aunt Jean,

Like I said, I did some research and listened to about 15 or so of the sermons that were not just the short segments. They were 25-30 minute continuous sermons. Almost made me want to go back to church. ;o)

Yes there were negative items stated, but it was always in the context to make a point. Those points were always followed up with how people should forgive others and work for better in the eyes of the Lord.

As you can tell, I haven't been to a "formal" church in awhile. The last one I attended regulary, well, long story short, the pastor killed his secretary's husband and the pastor's wife so he could marry the secretary. Does that make me a murder since I sat in that pew for 15 years listening to his sermons? You can be better than the person that explains and inspires you to the Lord.

The fact that Obama didn't throw Wright under the bus because of the few sound bites says to me that Obama was in the pews during the uplifting sermons like those I heard. A busy politition is not always in Church.

Peace!

Aunt Jean said...

emit how about his friends and assocs. Mark my words if by some small miracle he gets in the white house how are you going to feel when these unsavory people start goning thru the white house. Someone better take do a body check. Besides it's a doesn't matter that won't happen because if he runs against McCain. He won't stand a chance.Most Hillary supporters see the light and won't vote for him. Jean

Aunt Jean said...

emit excuse the typos just tired. Jean

jpsedona said...

Jean,

As someone who continually resorts to name calling, you don't engender much sympathy from those who participate in this blog.

Emit R Detsaw said...

Aunt Jean (cont)

And as far as shady associates. Obama has far fewer than Hillary, but she has had more oppertunities to be tied to them. People say Hillary's are vetted. That may be so, but there are so many shady things in Hillary's past, including her recent lies that I just can not trust her.

But then again, who can really trust a Lawyer or a Politian, and when you have a politian with a law degree...... lookout.... LOL

(advanced appoligies to any Lawyers or Politians in here)

Leah said...

Aunt Jean-

I will not lower myself to your level - I do not call people names and I will not resort to such a thing no matter what delusional things you say to me or about me.

I will pray for you.


OBAMA / Kathleen Sebelius '08

Aunt Jean said...

leah your God is not my God so please don't pray for me. My God is a just God yours isn't. Jean

Yamaka said...

"This is a main reason there is still conflict about seating MI and FL"

Only States have the RIGHT to conduct the Primary in their States, not the Parties.

What they say trumps any Party.

State Law must be obeyed, period.

About 3 million voters obeyed their State Law.

If the Democratic Party wants to be the National Party, it must include ALL States.

Otherwise, it deserves to be destroyed from the bottom up. All illegitimate operations must be stopped immediately.

Count ALL votes and seat ALL delegates before the wrath of American people chases you all to the Gates of Hell!

2208 is the magic number, not the illegitimate bogus 2025!

:-)

Leah said...

Yamaka-

The race that is in question is for the nominee for the DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

The race is not for a seat in a state office.

The rules of the DNC are decided before-hand on how the DEMOCRATIC PARTY will chose their nominee.

Choosing a nominee for a PARTY is not the same as a general election for SEATING the President.

There are other parties that have chosen a nominee to represent them other than the democratic and republican parties and there haven't even been elections regarding those nominees. So, imo your argument doesn't hold up.

OBAMA / Kathleen Sebelius '08

.

jpsedona said...

Yamaka,

many times you've said:

"State Law must be obeyed, period.

About 3 million voters obeyed their State Law.'

What LAWS exactly are voters required to obey? All people must vote?

If it WAS state law, then when Sen. Nelson tried to get the courts to intervene, they would have. Since it was determined by the court that it was a political party matter, they determined that they had no standing.

So what LAW is it that is being violated by the Dem party process?

Mark said...

"leah your God is not my God so please don't pray for me. My God is a just God yours isn't. Jean"


Aunt Jean - this is absolutely revolting. If you are dropping to this kind of level, everyone on this thread should really stop reading your trolling posts.

Yamaka said...

Folks,

Good days are coming back. SP500 Index crossed 1400 to 1409 and DJIA is at 13010!

(Walla..Walla. My accountant just called and said April gave about U$50K!!!! Kamaka... Yamaka.... :-))

April was kind to Hillary also! She won PA the battle-ground bellwether by 10% against 3:1 advantage of the BigMoneyBags! Walla. Walla.... Kamaka... Yamaka......

Indeed, the Tide is Changing.

Yes, the Change is going to come!

Cheer and Smile Vote for Hillary the First Woman POTUS.

:-)

Leah said...

Yamaka said:
About 3 million voters obeyed their State Law.
_________________

I have no argument with that statement.

The argument is that the PRIMARY was not valid under the rules of the DNC. This is the DNC's nomination process. The DNC has a right to set the rules on how the PARTY picks their nominee.


OBAMA / Kathleen Sebelius '08

Larry Parker said...

Dang it ! The Obama superdelegate deficit was down to 17 for a little while today. Oh well, Obama is a lock to become the nominee...eventually. :) :)
If the Wicked Witch of New York finally faces reality.

Dave in NC said...

Hey folks, I just thought up something controversial to say!

:)

Why didn't Hillary serve in the armed forces even though she was military age during Vietnam?

Many women served and a whole lot died serving.

But not Hillary. (Don't respond by pointing out others who didn't serve, they aren't running for president.)

Ponder this: History is full of remarkable female leaders - mostly created by necessity in times of hardship. They rise to fill a void.

Golda Meir was a leader and a war hero. Her term as prime minister was not a reward for a career of "working hard" but was rather a continuation of her pivotal leadership role.

We have no void of leadership talent in America. We certainly don't need Hillary as an affirmative action token at the helm of the free world.

Hillary has never been a needed, let alone pivotal, figure at any level of any organization. The nation and the world would be exactly the same without her.

She has no accomplishments that didn't revolve around Bill, and never did anything that wan't directly related to political gain.

She has never served the public, only herself.

She has so few skeletons in her closet because she has never been a real person. She can never relate to the common person in this country.

That is why Hillary will never be president either now or in the future.

Get out the rabies shots, the animal attacks come in 3.. 2.. 1..

Yamaka said...

dave:

Have fun. You know better than that!

jpsedona said...

Yamaka,

Hillary had a good month winning PA & remaining in the race. On the SD front she got trounced badly. The following is a count of SD's that DCW added/reduced for each candidate in the month of April:

4-2-08 Obama +2
4-5-08 Obama +3
4-6-08 Obama +2 Clinton -1
4-7-08 Obama -1 Clinton +1
4-8-08 Obama 0 Clinton -1
4-9-08 Obama 0 Clinton -1
4-10-08 Obama +1 Clinton +3
4-11-08 Obama 0 Clinton +1
4-12-08 Obama 0 Clinton +1
4-13-08 Obama +1
4-16-08 Obama +3 Clinton +1
4-17-08 Obama +2 Clinton +2
4-18-08 Obama +1 Clinton +1
4-19-08 Obama +1 Clinton +1
4-20-08 Obama 0 Clinton +1
4-21-08 Obama +1
4-23-08 Obama +2 Clinton +1
4-24-08 Obama +1
4-26-08 Obama +1 Clinton +1
4-28-08 Obama +2
4-29-08 Obama +2 Clinton +2
4-30-08 Obama +3 Clinton +2

APRIL Obama +27 Clinton +15
Obama 64% Clinton 36%

Yamaka said...

"I have no argument with that statement."

About 3 million voters went to the polls. That's what is at the heart of the issue before us. Their votes and delegates in FULL must be counted, period.

The Democratic Party has the right to be the National Party of ALL States, or has the right to become IRRELEVANT in National Politics.

It will soon be destroyed for its czarist arrogance and inward ignorance of people's wishes!

Kathleen Who...Osama Who?

jpsedona said...

Dave,

Acording to Bill, Hillary DID try to join the military. This story has gotten some play in the last month. Here's an article:

Hillary Tried to Join Army

Yamaka said...

"Hillary had a good month winning PA & remaining in the race."

jp:

We are in the 6/7 Inning or 12th Round of the Championship Fight.

How many NCAA Championships got decided at the last minute? Too many.

Only now people pay attention to who this Manchurian Candidate is!

Wright's Right Hand!!!

Stay tuned. There are about 320 SDs to go around!

:-)

Yamaka said...

Hi Dave:

Was BARack Hussein Bin Obama a US Navy Seal working at the coast of Hawaii for about 10 years?

Some Obamamaniacs were peddling that story!!

LoL.


Smile for Real Change.

Yes, Change is going to come.

Tide is Changing, my friend.

jpsedona said...

Yamaka,

"We are in the 6/7 Inning or 12th Round of the Championship Fight."

In a boxing match, sometimes the referee will step in and call the fight over when one has taken too much of a beating. Before the 12th round.

We'll just have to see whether the Refs call the fight or whether Hillary's corner tosses in the tall. I'm guessing the former...

We'll see...

jpsedona said...

UPDATED:

SD Activity since PA:

Obama: +11 new commitments
Obama: +1 switched from Hillary

Hillary: +11 new commitments
Hillary: -1 swithced to Obama

Obama now holds a 12-10 margin in SD endorsements since PA including 4 NY add-ons today.

There are 7 add-ons before Tuesday: MD (2), LA (1), SC (1), and IL (3). Best estimates indicate all of these will go for Obama.

So, projections since PA:

Obama: +19 (66%)
Hillary: +10 (34%)

If Hillary needs about 60% of the uncommitted superdelegates, this is not a good trend.

Yamaka said...

"when one has taken too much of a beating. Before the 12th round."

Who took too much beating in TX, OH and PA ? HRC won all the rounds!

During Debates ALL rounds went to HRC!!!

PA was BHO's Waterloo.

His best days were over with MS!

Who is leading in popular vote by 122 k?

2208 is the bottom line.

Stay tuned!

:-)

Nancy said...

Clinton still ahead 265 to 244 for super Delegates. Those who are voting for Obama will all be thrown under the bus by Obama like he did to his white Grandma in March and to his Mentor Dr. Wright on April 29, 2008.

How can people be so dumb

Jim said...

Dave,Dave, Dave
I know yo are smarter than this. You said:

“Why didn't Hillary serve in the armed forces even though she was military age during Vietnam?”
Fayetteville, Arkansas, in 1975, Hillary walked into a local Marines recruiting office. The Marine recruiter looked at her, she recalled, and asked how old she was. Twenty-seven, she said.



“But not Hillary. (Don't respond by pointing out others who didn't serve, they aren't running for president.)”
Not Obama, who was about 28 during the first Gulf War. He knew he would have to pledge allegiance to the United States and fight. He can barely survive a debate, a war zone would terrify him.

jpsedona said...

Yamaka,

I think you would agree that it's all about delegates, independent of how FL and MI get seated.

And on the delegate front, Obama scored more delegates out of Tx.

For someone who's supposedly beating Obama handily, why is Hillary continuing to slip in SD's?

Those are the same SD's that need to buy the "popular vote" argument, right?

So, if she's ahead by that much, how come no one's jumping on her bandwagon using that argument?

Yamaka said...

"So, if she's ahead by that much, how come no one's jumping on her bandwagon using that argument?"

Clearly, the DNC and SDs are dominated by the FAR LEFT ideologues. Now we are fighting for the conscience of the Party:

I pull towards the middle, you and others pull towards the FAR LEFT.

My thesis is FAR LEFT just cannot win the GE. American electorate has seen the failure of Carter. Most of them ARE near the middle, IMHO.

"I think you would agree that it's all about delegates, independent of how FL and MI get seated".

Correction: Yes, dependent of how FL and MI get seated.

If the DNC sets the hurdle at 2208, and BHO goes above the hurdle in TOTAL delegates, I will concede that the process was legitimate.

Otherwise, I will yell and scream that it is an Illegitimate Primary, stolen by the FAR LEFT!

:-)

Jim said...

jp,
You said: "And on the delegate front, Obama scored more delegates out of Tx. "
Clinton still leads in Texas delegates, the caucus delegates will not be determined until June
and that is FACT.

Yamaka said...

jim:

You are on the money.

But Dave has disappeared after throwing the bomb from the back bench! Coward!! lol

:-)

Jim said...

Yam, old Dave will be back to take his lumps. He is probably just chillin and knocking dow a few brews.
Now, if you catch leah or jp in a fairy tale, they usually dissappear or ignore you.

Oreo said...

We have started a new Open Thread here.

Please be excellent to one another. We do not accept name-calling or any attacks on our commenters. Any objectionable comments will be deleted

Dave in NC said...

jp,

Thanks for the link, but note that the story is given about as much credibility as the Bosnian sniper fire story.

Jim,

She was 27 in '75. That would have made her 20 during the Tet Offensive. But yet no military service.

My, Jim, but they have a LOT of Red Herring in Texas. I didn't know you had that much water down there.

Aunt Jean,

No comment from you? I'm sure you are a lady that knows a lot about combat boots. :)

Peace my friend :)

jpsedona said...

Jim,

Relative to caucus votes, you are technically correct about TX and some other caucus states. So, based on the current counts as reported on reputable news sites, I'll keep the Tx lead for Obama until otherwise modified.

Dave in NC said...

Yam,

Hey, I resemble that!

Jim,

No brews, I went down to the recruiters so I could claim I tried to join up for when I run for president. They still don't take 48 year-olds. (Actually, I did my time. WV National Guard)

Regarding Obama, the first Golf War was over in 100 hours. They weren't doing any heavy recruiting of 28 year-olds.

jpsedona said...

Yamaka,

"Clearly, the DNC and SDs are dominated by the FAR LEFT ideologues. Now we are fighting for the conscience of the Party:"

One could then use this rationale as to why Hillary will loose the count with the SD'a. Using your logic, these people are more in tune with Obama. For this to change, you would have to believe that an appeal to their conscience would work. Possible, but not likely IMO.

I do agree with you that the US electorate is somewhere in the middle. Not at the far left or far right extremes. Also, I believe the real GE fight will be over the independents.

jpsedona said...

Dave,

re Hillary wanting to join the army, I didn't say I believe it. I'm sure Bill was confused just like he was confused about Hillary giving the Bosnia speech late at night...

jpsedona said...

Oreo,

It doesn't seem like the new thread link has any fewer posts.

jpsedona said...

The new thread is actually:
HERE

Yamaka said...

"For this to change, you would have to believe that an appeal to their conscience would work. Possible, but not likely IMO".

jp:

This is what most probably will happen:

1. None will clinch 2208 with the pledged delegates.

2. On PD both candidates will be nearly even +/- 20.

3. HRC will have a net of 300K more in popular votes, which is very very important for her.

4. She will tell the 300 or so SDs undeclared that she has a better chance of winning GE than BHO.

5. BHO is risky to the Party. He is totally inexperienced. He has scandals stuck around his neck. He has poor name recognition in the middle America.

Therefore, she should be the Nominee.

SDs will buy her argument whether they like it or not. She will get the nod, IMHO.

If BHO gets the nod, the Party will lose the WH and the Congress, I believe.

Wait and See.

:-)

Jim said...

Dave,
I thought we were through with the fish stuff. You must be Stock Broker the way you use Red Herring.
Kudos for your service to your country. I served 57 through 65 and yes Vietnam was part of it.
You have no basis for your assumption about Hillary trying to join.
My assumption that Obama is not brave enough or patroitic is just as valid.

Leah said...

The thread here has been closed and there is a new Open Thread. If you refresh your browser and click on the OPEN THREAD like up top left you'll get on the new page.

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