Democratic Convention Watch: Open Thread

Tuesday, April 01, 2008

Open Thread

WE'VE MOVED! Democratic Convention Watch is now at http://www.DemocraticConventionWatch.com

Who's going to win, who has a better chance against McCain, or whatever else is on your mind.

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Yamaka said...: Fellow Democrats:

A New History was indeed made this afternoon.

Sen BHO clinched the Nomination of the Democratic Party. Great achievement, indeed.

To Sen Obama and his ardent admirers and supporters:

Congrats. Job well done.

Keep doing the hard work and serve the country better than anybody as you all promised to do.

God Bless BHO and his family.

To Hillary Rodham Clinton:

You ARE the Genuine American Classic.

Against the mighty money and word power of Sen Obama and his enthusiastic and energetic crowd of passionate supporters,

you won the battle ground States of PA, OH, KY, WV, PR and SD, besides many other large Primaries.

You ARE the Most Popular Candidate with the Most Votes Cast in a Primary ever in the History of our Union.

The Democratic Party Officials stabbed you on your back.

What do you need to do?

Hillary, take your time and decide whether to endorse BHO or go on your own way.

Either way is fine with your supporters like me, Hillary.

I cannot believe that the Democratic Party has become this undemocratic, abandoning the Fairness Doctrine. The RBC is full of shenanigans and corrupted politicians.

Stay tuned.; June 03, 2008 10:57 PM
Independent Voter said...: Gnight ed.; June 03, 2008 11:00 PM
Unknown said...: Great speech by Obama tonight. My personal hope is that the SDs keep up the pressure to put Obama over 2209 ASAP. While he only need 2119, I fear 2209 may be the only way to prevent an appeal to the credentials commitee....; June 03, 2008 11:01 PM
Markk said...: The vast majority of the rest of the superdelegates will quickly endose Senator Obama I suspect...; June 03, 2008 11:02 PM
Hippolytus said...: bikrchik said:
"WHAT HAS OBAMA DONE???????"
_________
He's just kicked Hillary's butt and the Clinton machine big time, that's what.; June 03, 2008 11:03 PM
RobH said...: I took lot of cheap shots at the Clintons tonight, and for that I apologize. Gloating, I guess. Starting tomorrow, I'm leaving the Clintons behind. She is just another consideration for VP (far down the list) and he is just a great ex-president.

But before I let it go, can you imagine how PISSED OFF he must be?
He's been bouncing around rural America in the back of a van ("down by the river") for a couple of months now, endlessly - for what?

I mean, he made like 60 stops in NC, 40 in WV, dozens and dozens in the Dakotas, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, etc. Can you imagine how wearying that is? I mean there's only so much farmer's daughters....oh never mind.; June 03, 2008 11:03 PM
November Politics said...: Anyone beside me notice Sen. McCain lost the Montana caucus?; June 03, 2008 11:06 PM
RobH said...: They're talking about how Clinton will retain her "army" and seek to dictate terms with Barack over how to turn over her troops to him.

My take is - just let some time pass - let the emotion die down. This will all ease. The militancy can't last.; June 03, 2008 11:07 PM
suzihussein22 said...: markk-Thank you. Your graciousness and rational posts with real arguments are refreshing.

ed iglehart-Slainte and good night.
Don't let the big bad bed bugs bite. My kids still can't say that as fast as I can, but I'm afraid my son will be able to beat me in chess soon.:); June 03, 2008 11:07 PM
RobH said...: Ciao everybody...
Great night...
Missed ya' Leah.....; June 03, 2008 11:09 PM
Kujo said...: Mike in Maryland,

read the second message first....

Thanks. As you understood my intention was more CNN approach in recognising the one of the demographics of HRC support, the one she seemed to pick up after Feb 5th.; June 03, 2008 11:09 PM
Hippolytus said...: yamaka,
You are a standup guy. Thanks for your congrats, and also for your words for Hillary and her supporters.
I give you a lot of credit for making yourself known tonight, unlike some others who have not shown such class. I hope to have you in our camp before too long, but respect your process and decision.
- Hippo; June 03, 2008 11:09 PM
apissedant said...: emma,
Complaining about the McCain and Hillary tag team attack on Obama and our nation.; June 03, 2008 11:10 PM
Independent Voter said...: gnite robh; June 03, 2008 11:11 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Congratulations Dems! Congratulations USA! Slainte to our friends abroad! I raise my goblet in a toast to a better future, better stewardship, a change we can make happen!

June 03, 2008 10:46 PM

It was on the previous page and I wanted to make sure it didn't get overlooked.; June 03, 2008 11:11 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Hey November - The Republican caucus was in February

Republicans did SD and NM today. Ron Paul and Huckabee did pretty good, but McBush still took them.; June 03, 2008 11:11 PM
Keryl said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 03, 2008 11:11 PM
Keryl said...: Mmm. I hear that Repub "he's going to tax us more" thing. Well no if you make less than $250k.

I've done pretty well for myself and have enjoyed great tax cuts from Bush. And I'll probably pay more under any democratic president. But honestly I'm paying it in different ways. Health insurance for my family is more than 4X what it was 8 years ago. Gas is 4X what it was 8 years ago. My house is worse less than it was last year. My local taxes have gone up dramatically as the local schools strive to keep up with the mandates from NCLB. yeah, I got big tax breaks. Whoopee.

By the way, Obama has actually worked across the aisle on Veterans affairs, and in Illinois he was well known for being pragmatic, not ideological.; June 03, 2008 11:14 PM
Pablo said...: bikr r chik

There is one thing Obama has done that Hillary never has. Check out the front pages on all the political sites, the check mark by his name indicates he just won the Democratic Presidential nomination; June 03, 2008 11:14 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Good night, robh.; June 03, 2008 11:14 PM
Oregon Dem said...: I could say wow about Obama's speech tonight but you all know that that is the way I would feel about it even if I had just caught a clip or two.

I listened to all three speeches tonight McCain, Clinton and Obama with my wife and youngest daughter.

The interesting thing for me was that I (a 53 y/old male) did not cry once during any of the speeches, but after I heard something that Tom Browcow said between Senator Clinton's and Senator Obama's speech. I will not try to quote it exactly but I will paraphrase.

Chris Mathews had just read some words from Archbishop Tutu about the stae of race in America and Tom said it is amazing that in 40 years that this country could have come so far.

Think back.

40 years ago I was going door to door campaigning for RFK as a teenager, but at the same time we had just seen MLK killed and race riots, blacks were still being denied access to vote or even use the same bathroom I did.

Tom said something along the lines of the people energized are the young people because they are so much more color blind then people of our (my) generation. Tom then brought into his comments the killing of RFK in 68 as well.

I could not take it - I excused myself from my youngest daughter and wife and went out onto the back deck and cried saying to myself:

Bobby, we heard you and and all I can say is: you would be so proud of the USA, we raised our kids right.; June 03, 2008 11:16 PM
apissedant said...: Goodnight everyone! Congrats to Obama and all of his supporters... me included, 'cause I can never get enough of self congratulations.

Yam,
I'm confused on when South Dakota became a battle ground state. You'll have to refresh my memory another time.; June 03, 2008 11:18 PM
RobH said...: Hooray for the good guys!

Over and out.; June 03, 2008 11:18 PM
apissedant said...: oregon,
That is a touching story. It is a great day for America. We have grown a lot and you should be proud of your part in it.; June 03, 2008 11:23 PM
Hippolytus said...: I wonder what Hillary is drinking tonight. Anybody have any guesses?; June 03, 2008 11:25 PM
Kujo said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 03, 2008 11:25 PM
Bull Schmitt said...: Props to Oreo and co. for yeoman work :)

That said, MSNBC just said that their count has Sen. Obama at 2219 delegates - how's your math looking now, Yammer??; June 03, 2008 11:25 PM
Kujo said...: Markk,

We all have to understand that higher taxes is not a Liberal thing. Paying for our cost is.

If we look in the 1990's we made more money as a net then we do now with lower taxes.

I am for one someone who will be hit hard if they raise taxes, but will benefit much more with a healthy economy.

In my lifetime (not counting the time period when I couldn't go a day without Magilla Gorrilla) what I seen out of Republicans is Higher Spending and lower taxes. Does not make sense. They need to appeal to their finacial base to lower the taxes. They also have adopted the tickle down economics policy. Make the rich richer and they will spend more. Let me tell you if I make more money I would not buy anything else. In the 90's the economy was driven by getting people jobs. These people could then buy things because they did not have them before. And this will tickle up. Stock market will reflect the booming economy and the wealth will be happy as well.

What we need to worry about is what happened in the first term of the Clinton administration where we held both houses and the White House. Everyone thought they were invinsable and we still did not get things passed.; June 03, 2008 11:25 PM
billyjay66 said...: Markk

If you are concerned about liberal policies and by that I assume by that you mean spending us wildly into debt and creating a larger tax burden....have you ever looked at where our debt came from. Out of the impending 10 trillion in debt we will top by next spring. Eight trillion have come from Reagan Bush and Bush II. here it is:

Reagan-Bush start - under 1 trillion end 4.5 trillion................ 3.5 trillion increase.

Bush II start 5.6 trillion - end 9.9 trillion.......................4.4 trillion increase
Total 8 trillion (3 Presidents)

When you buy into tax cuts always being good you help build a debt that will be paid for generations

So Geo Washington........up to Jimmy Carter......................1 trillion

Bill Clinton.................................................................1.1 trillion
total 2 trillion (40 presidents)

Tax cut and spend = tax increase for generations.; June 03, 2008 11:27 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Well here I AM !

A bit late and didn't get to say goodnight to everyone that left!

I watched all three speeches and OBAMA was AWESOME !!!

Then I got tied up on the phone.

I've caught up reading most of the posts here - and I cannot believe how many SUPER DUPERS OBAMA HAS NOW!!!!!!

OBAMA - Our next President of the UNITED States of America :); June 03, 2008 11:33 PM
Squirrel said...: Team Matt,Oreo, and others, one big thank you.

Sorry I was not online, I had to watch it on TV with my wife, it was something we both wanted to be together at.

I saw McCain's speach, hell how false he looked!

I am angry at Clinton, she did not have to concede but she lost more points with both me and my wife tonight. Please do not let her on the ticket is now our prayer.

Now I am tired, its 4.33 a.m. here, but I am so energised it is unbelievable.

Oh and what will we talk about on here from now on? Simple, beating John McCain into the dust!; June 03, 2008 11:36 PM
Hippolytus said...: Here's a little game I'd like to offer-- How many total delegates will Obama have by midnight this Sunday?
Groundrules:
1) 1 entry (and first entry) per entrant.
2) Entry must be made before the earlier of midnight EST on June 8, 2008 or entry on DCW page of 50 or fewer uncommitted delegates remaining.

I'll go first, and guess 2280. (I hope he exceeds 2300!); June 03, 2008 11:37 PM
Markk said...: Well I do make more than 250k a year so a) obviously I'm a Republican (albet, a moderate one) and b) obviously higher taxes is a concern for me as I tend to do alot of business start-ups.

Oil, health care, etc are mostly market driven, not government-driven. Frankly, I'm anxious to start seeing $300+ barrels of oil so we can actually start REAL alternative energy progress, not the baby-steps initiatives we're getting now. Biofuel is a joke IMO...

At any rate, higher taxes on the 'rich' (I don't consider myself rich incidentally although I'm doing better than average certainly) DOES effect more than just people in the tax bracket and anyone who tells you different is just trying to sell you something IMO. Giving more money to what is, in essence, the most inefficient business in America, is just not an overall wise decision. If they can't use the vast monies we ALREADY give them without ridiculous waste, what makes anyone think throwing more money at them is a good idea.

I'm all for government reform and even have no problem paying higher taxes for universal health care for my workers and, most importantly to me, paying down the national deficit (did anyone know, even WITH the war in the Iraq, that if not for the interest we're paying on the debt, we'd actually BE running at close to 0 debt annually right now?). But the issue remains that the government is inherently run like a BAD business. If I ran MY worker's pension program like the government runs the social security program, I'd be brought up on charges...

So yeah, I WILL rail on 'higher taxes' actually...; June 03, 2008 11:38 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Good night apissedant-You can congratulate yourself one more time. One person at a time in the voting booth added up to over 17 million CONGRATULATIONS(just imagine Dr. Evil saying that).BTW, the guys will be wearing Hawaiian shirts to the wedding at Dam Neck.

emma-Good question. I'm sure there will at least be more discussion about V.P. Your postings have been compassionate and thought-provoking. Thank you.

OR Dem-That brought tears to my eyes. Every once in a while, I still find stories where a business is remodelling and find old areas that used to be segregated. We're finally beginning a new chapter in our history.

I see so much passion and caring in our posts. It didn't wane either when the writers'strike ended. We are tuning in to our country, not reality shows. We are learning more about our neighbors here and abroad, not who's proposing to who on Friday night.

Here's a quote from our former Pres. WC-

“We should, all of us, be filled with gratitude and humility for our present progress and prosperity. We should be filled with awe and joy at what lies over the horizon. And we should be filled with absolute determination to make the most of it.”

We can make the most of it starting now.; June 03, 2008 11:40 PM
November Politics said...: 2265 for Sen. Obama by Sunday :); June 03, 2008 11:40 PM
Oregon Dem said...: Ant:

Thanks.

I feel all I did was raise three daughters that had no fear in voting for Obama.

My wife and I did a cross check while cooking dinner when she wondered why my eyes were teary. We asked some hard questions and we summized that we do still have lingering race issues. We talked about how our parents had real race issues and how our children do not.

I am so proud to be an American today.

Not because what I have done, but because what we have done as a country in so (relatively) short a time.

I have to be carefull here - I promised my wife that I was cooking and watching dinner!; June 03, 2008 11:40 PM
Uncle John said...: Like Keryl said, go on over to HillaryClinton.com, congratulate her on her tenacious race, and ask her to get behind Sen. Obama.

This from a Republican who's been energized by both candidates in your party.

And energized by Matt, Oreo, and all of you.; June 03, 2008 11:40 PM
themann1086 said...: Dear Yams,

Suck it.

Dear Vast Majority of Hillary Supporters,

You are awesome. I'm impressed, though I didn't want to admit it until the election was over. You fought and fought and fought for your candidate, despite the nigh-impossibility of victory, and you never gave one inch. While her campaign and some of her policies have sometimes annoyed me, Hillary has always had my respect. And so do you.

It's probably not any consolation, but you are all responsible for the best-performing campaign to ever finish in second (at least in the modern era). That is something to be proud of. I really hope you funnel that tireless work ethic towards the issues Hillary cares about by helping Barack Obama defeat John McCain. I hope we can all work together.

Yes, we can. And we will.; June 03, 2008 11:44 PM
billkapra said...: Folks,

THANK YOU!!!

I've been a lurker and occasional poster. You guys done amazing.

I know a little about working something from the ground up and just want to add my congratulations to others' on your class, quality and grace.

As you go on to bigger and better things, I hope you remember the lessons you learned here.

From my perspective, you succeeded especially by clearly expressing your foundational principles but, along the way, being receptive to constructive criticism and displaying flexibility when it was warranted.

You also showed grace and calm in the face of the uncensored weirdness of the web. Our fellow citizens out here range from the diligent to the distractable and you did a good job of responding to both.

Overall, great job! Once again, congratulations and good luck in all of your future endeavors.

With warm good wishes,

Another voice from the aether.; June 03, 2008 11:46 PM
Markk said...: Kujo, Billy Ray:

Oh, I completely agree that the Republican party has lost any credibility as being the party of 'small government' under President Bush's administration. The Republicans had both houses and the presidency for six years and they (bleeped) it up badly, of that there is no doubt. President Bush's low approval ratings are NOT because he's lost his approval from Democrats who never liked him in the first place... It's because he's lost the support of Republicans like myself on domestic policies... and with good reason.

Right now, we're pretty much stuck with tax-cut-and-spend Republicans and tax-and-spend Democrats... which is worse, well, I don't know but neither is particularly good for the economy as a whole.

HOWEVER, Senator McCain has always been a champion of fiscal responsibility and reform and I don't consider him in the same vein as most of the other Republicans in Washington.

People who genuinely think that a McCain presidency (and this will be a talking point throughout Senator Obama's campaign) is just a third Bush term obviously don't remember the vitriol between the two candidates during the 2000 election. McCain is NOT a fan of President Bush although it was neccessary for him to move to the right in order for him to secure the nomination.; June 03, 2008 11:47 PM
Hippolytus said...: To all DCW bloggers --
Thanks for the ride thus far; it's been a lot of fun traveling this road with you.
Enjoy this night. On to November!; June 03, 2008 11:51 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Hippolytus said...

Here's a little game I'd like to offer-- How many total delegates will Obama have by midnight this Sunday?
Groundrules:
1) 1 entry (and first entry) per entrant.
2) Entry must be made before the earlier of midnight EST on June 8, 2008 or entry on DCW page of 50 or fewer uncommitted delegates remaining.

______________________

Hippolytus-

I am going to shoot for 2300

YES WE CAN!
Si se puede!
Si noi possiamo!

OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA '08
.; June 03, 2008 11:55 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: I am sending a BIG HUG to ALL the people that come here to DCW and to everyone in the WORLD!

OBAMA/Kathleen Sebelius '08; June 03, 2008 11:57 PM
Vicki in Seattle said...: omg - he's still adding delegates!

I'm gonna tottle off to bed here shortly, but I can hardly believe it.; June 03, 2008 11:58 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: I knew he would cross the line to win - but I REALLY still cannot believe how many superdelegate endorsements have come in and are still coming in!!!

WHAT A FLOOD!

I betcha even Obama is surprised ;)

.; June 04, 2008 12:02 AM
Uncle John said...: Hippolytus:

2281.; June 04, 2008 12:02 AM
suzihussein22 said...: markk-Your salary doesn't make you an obvious Rep.

markk said-
At any rate, higher taxes on the 'rich' (I don't consider myself rich incidentally although I'm doing better than average certainly) DOES effect more than just people in the tax bracket and anyone who tells you different is just trying to sell you something IMO. Giving more money to what is, in essence, the most inefficient business in America, is just not an overall wise decision. If they can't use the vast monies we ALREADY give them without ridiculous waste, what makes anyone think throwing more money at them is a good idea.

This is what "W" was somehow able to sell to people in 2000 and 2004.
But has his guidance changed any of that?

What kind of job growth have we had? I don't have statistics but I hear more about the service industry than anything else. How is that bettering the future of quality of life? They end up having to work 3 jobs at minimum wage to try to save for retirement and for their kids, unless the vehicle needs maintained, or the kids need to go to the orthodontist, or a storm caused major damage to their house, or maybe a few more examples? I've got friends who can barely keep their electric bill paid and I've got friends who make millions. Most of them say we need somebody besides McCain. They see the big picture. $300 a barrel? I think the country would implode before you anxiously await that number.

Respectfully, softspoken22; June 04, 2008 12:02 AM
Yamaka said...: "But if he's just going to be a big-government, higher-taxes (couched as 'sacrifices') president, that won't do much to actually help the country."

Markk:

I agree with you.

My concern is he may be forced follow Jimmy Carter style of Govt. BHO's view of the world is similar to Carters: Naive foreign policy and lousy economic policy.

Republicans are planning to pin Carter II on him as BHO wants to pin McCain as McBush.

We have to wait and see what's going to stick.

My prediction is w/o the real help of the Clintons, BHO will have serious problems convincing most women and the working White Americans, who are the backbone of the American Electorate.

At this point, BHO has about 100 EVs. That's all. He has to work very very hard to get 271 EVs. He has 18 million voters behind him, he may need another 40 million voters to even come closer to 271 EVs.

__________________________

Someone wanted to know what happened to my Math?

Well. It just didn't work, period.
The SDs did not buy the Most Popular Vote argument! It is their problem!

_____________________________

apiss:

I meant that most people thought BHO has a strong hold on SD and MT.

They predicted both would go to him!

She won SD with double digit margin! How did that happen?

I would say that she ventured into his territory and won, in spite of being outspent 3:1, as in TX, PA, OH, WV, KY and PR Primaries!

Caucuses are another story. Many of her supporters shunned the polling places for obvious reasons!; June 04, 2008 12:03 AM
suzihussein22 said...: Leah-Good to hear from you tonight. Ciao and thanks.; June 04, 2008 12:07 AM
justin said...: In the background of McCain during his speech tonight were the words "A Leader We Can Believe In"

Really, that's the best he could do? Feels like he is saying let's copy off the smart kid

Obama Change We Can Believe In

And dont forget the rebuplican and
Effexor (Wyeth Pharm) slogan "The Change You Deserve"

So happy Obama gets to debate McCain, can't wait.; June 04, 2008 12:11 AM
apissedant said...: kujo,
Well said. Who cares how many dollars you spend in taxes. What is important is how much money you take home at the end of the day. The results are in: under Bill Clinton we paid more money in taxes, but we also brought more money home for ourselves. This means our kids ate and got medical care, and we had shiny new toys in our drive ways. Sounds better than low taxes and ramen noodles to me.
A bit of an dramatization, but the basic premise is true.; June 04, 2008 12:13 AM
Peter said...: I think the contrast of the speeches tonight are HUGE. Clinton a little bit in denial as expected, she needs a couple of days to think. But i think she will exit either this week or next week. A LOT of major superdelegates are holding their endorsement as a leverage to "force" Clinton out if she stays to long.

Obamas speech was one of his best an that was important on this day. I think he will get a "boost" on the national polls, probably 5-10% margin to McCain in most polls.

McCains speech was an embarrassement. The green backround, his "boring" talk and the "stolen" slogan "leader we can believe in"?
What is this? They basically say "Hey Obama has a good slogan", lets use some of it and try to score a political point. It is embarrassing. If McCain continues like this, he will lose big.; June 04, 2008 12:15 AM
billyjay66 said...: Markk

You are a Republican that sees thru the tax rhetoric and knows the course we heading equals disaster. One Republican I admire (and therefore other Republicans don't) is Pres Eisenhower. He faced a huge post war debt.... almost 18 trillion dollars in today's GDP and he balanced the budget and let big GNP growth bring the debt down. George W would have said......lets have a big (corporate) party after that!!!!!

We are on the same page as far as energy policy. Like the new Brazil offshore oil fields will satisfy our demands???!!! That means drilling at a 10k feet ocean floor several thousand feet more and pulling 540F oil out of a 2.5 mile long straw. Sure.; June 04, 2008 12:16 AM
Kujo said...: Markk,

I also remember the McCain during the 2004 presidetial race where rummer started to spread that there would be a Kerry McCain ticket, one McCain was not commenting on.

Then came the infamous talk GeeDubau had with him. From that point on McCain has been in Bush's corner.

He had many opportunities during the last 6 years to step up and show put pressure on Bush to change his approach in Iraq. Never. I championed it.

He even toured Iraq and lied saying how safe it was that he and General XYZ could walk to the market without troops when infact behind the camera's was their military escort.

Can he change back to his old form ... listening to his speech tonight showed me how much of talk and little action he is.; June 04, 2008 12:18 AM
Kujo said...: He we are not out of the woods here yet. We still have the Ickles scenario to win.

That is count Michigan and Flordia 100% and give Clinton all of Michigan since Obama was not on the ballot.

we still need 27.5 more delegates.

I think there are still 141 SD's not anounced yet.

If we take this number Yamaka will have to Champion Obama.; June 04, 2008 12:20 AM
suzihussein22 said...: Let's not let our guard down while we celebrate-

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/06/mccain-makes-hi.html

We need to make sure that we and people we talk to don't become complacent by November.; June 04, 2008 12:21 AM
Keryl said...: Markk- I read your post carefully, and I have to say I agree with you completely. Really, I'm willing to spend more in taxes, but only if it's spent well. Up until this year I was a firm independent. Fiscally conservative and socially liberal wondering why there aren't any politicians that see the obvious benefit in that approach. We are in similar financial positions, as I too don't consider myself rich, although the government does. I'm not rich enough to buy my way out of the super high taxes. My dad used to say that "rich people's money works for them, and everybody else works for their money." By that definition I'm not rich, cause I gotta work pretty hard. But I digress.

I think the only difference is that I don't believe McCain when he says he will cut spending and I do believe Obama. Why, because that giant sucking sound is the cost of the war, and McCain not only wants to keep it going, it seems to me he's itching for more.

Obama, whether you want to believe him or not, has talked about how you can't buy your way out of bad schools, you can't buy your way back into automotive leadership. His health care plan doesn't cover everybody, and there's a reason. I believe his plan is more fiscally responsible, although not as generous as Clinton. He's resisted the left wanting to just spending the money because he doesn't think her plan will address the underlying cost of healthcare, rather then just covering the expense. That kind of thinking makes me think he is fiscally responsible.; June 04, 2008 12:21 AM
Hippolytus said...: Kujo,
Care to enter a delegate number for the contest I started?
______
Lanny Davis was just on Larry King, speaking in front of workers dismantling the stage. What a metaphor!; June 04, 2008 12:25 AM
justin said...: Keryl,

I am drawn to this idea of a fiscal conservative, but frankly I don't know what it means. The Rebubs cannot claim that they have held a cap on spending whatsoever. Isn't No Child Left Untested one result of social liberal policy and fically conservative implementation. How can we have social change without paying for it?

I am not one to ask for my taxes to be increased, but it seems time that we become willing to pay for things that are worth having.

Help me to understand the idea of fiscal conservative.; June 04, 2008 12:30 AM
Hippolytus said...: yamaka said:
"Someone wanted to know what happened to my Math?
Well. It just didn't work, period."
____________
Yams, enter my contest...It's a chance to redeem yourself and your "Math." ;-); June 04, 2008 12:31 AM
Kujo said...: Keryl,

Well put.

What I like the most is the

"He's resisted the left wanting to just spending the money.... "

The enemy (for lack of a word that truely charactorizes those who try to bring him down) has tried to pin the Liberal label on him from the start.

Voting Record. Come on. Liston to his proposals and see what he is all about.

Is he socially Liberal. Yes. Is he fiscally liberal. If the definition means balancing the budget, paying for our expenses, fiscal responsibility. Yes. But raising taxes and in order to just boost more government programs then no. He is much more replace the programs that do not work with ones that will.; June 04, 2008 12:33 AM
vwis said...: I am so HAPPY to have lived to see this day in history. We have made so much progress in the last 40-50 yrs.

Sorry I missed the party I invited you all to.

I got up after blogging last night and could hardly walk. I've got edema. I think it is probably due to allergies. So I spend most of the day with my feet up. I was on this blog only a short time this afternoon. I could have timed this better.

Anyways, CHEERS!; June 04, 2008 12:35 AM
apissedant said...: kujo,
Last I heard, Yama would only promise to champion Obama if he got more votes than Hillary Clinton, which he, as well as Hillary Clinton do not believe. He even said, "certified votes". This means caucus votes go out the window. I think Yama will take a week or so to warm up to the new campaign.

Markk,
All of those nations with government run health care pay less than us, and are getting better health care. They are paying less than half as much as us, and getting better health care. They outscore us in everything except number of MRI machines.
Also, BIG BUSINESS IS RUN THAT WAY. GM, Ford, Chrysler, Metlife, Enron, and all the others are run even WORSE than government. What's worse, there is nothing wrong with the government borrowing social security dollars, because they are allowed to be in debt. In fact we have been in debt since the day the Constitution was passed. BUSINESSES CANNOT BE IN DEBT. They have to operate on loans, and they cannot be secured a loan unless they have resources to back up the loan. Governments can much more easily secure loans, and have been doing it forever. All those companies that stole from the pension fund and put it in the profit margin destroyed their own companies. They got fat paychecks out of it for a few years though!

Look at what the dollar is worth. Even if your paycheck is the exact same as it was when Bush took office, even if it is 40% bigger, you're making less! That is right! The dollar has declined more than that 40%! So why cry about a few dollars in taxes when you're losing tens of thousands by not being taxed?
All of those terrible socialized countries that we complain about... they are now surpassing us in nearly everything. They are better educated, have better health care, have safer streets, and are quickly elapsing us in GDP per capita. The Canadian dollar is worth the same as the US dollar, and a Euro costs you 1.55.
Ireland has a higher GDP per capita!!! IRELAND! Remember!?!? That country that starved because of a bad potato crop? That country everyone used to make fun of for being so poor? We are behind the curve. Our influence is dying off, and when we're not needed, the loans will stop pouring in from China.; June 04, 2008 12:35 AM
justin said...: Hippo-

2290 as a final number

I'll allow for 10% of remaining SDs to make a statement, the rest will endorse the future Prez.

But the question was how many by Sunday...

2230 by Sunday

Solidly past any hurdle, still some room for announcements on the campaign trail; June 04, 2008 12:36 AM
apissedant said...: hip,
someone stole my number of 2281, so I pick 2282.; June 04, 2008 12:37 AM
Kujo said...: Justin,

Keryl gave a good example when speaking of health care.

When it comes to education, we can improve the system by replacing the ones that do not work. We can target programs in the inner city were the results of these programs will reduce expense in other area's like public housing, unemployement....; June 04, 2008 12:37 AM
Hillary Clinton said...: Help! I'm running for President and I can't seem to stop?; June 04, 2008 12:38 AM
apissedant said...: leah,
We missed you! I was supposed to go to bed, and I did for awhile. I couldn't sleep, so I came back for more education.

vwis,
Sorry to hear your sick. I don't know what that is, because so far in my life... I'm pretty much never sick, but I'll trust that it sucks. Just think about the future and you won't even notice the pain or discomfort.; June 04, 2008 12:39 AM
apissedant said...: HAHA, nice Hillary, best post I've seen in awhile!; June 04, 2008 12:40 AM
Kujo said...: apissedant,

A while ago Yamaka was saying that FL and MI will be counted 100% and the true winner will have over 2206 (I think that is the number). He said he will support fulling the candidate who gets over 2206.; June 04, 2008 12:40 AM
Yamaka said...: "Really, I'm willing to spend more in taxes, but only if it's spent well."

keryl:

I am a socially liberal and fiscally a conservative.

My view is a good portion of our taxes (30-50%) is wasted on bloated bureaucracy, its overhead and maintenance, besides outright fraud and theft. Because, the collected tax money is with "the third person", who has no incentive to use it usefully and productively.

If a President is a fiscal conservative who stresses balanced budget/surplus etc. you get the confidence he/she will the true Custodian of the Treasury.

For some reason I don't get a feeling that Sen Obama will be a champion of fiscal sanity and will be the strong Custodian of the Treasury.

--------------------------

apiss:

When Bill Clinton left office with surplus budget (which belonged to the SS Fund) he collected only 18% of the GDP as Federal Tax. I believe that's should be the right size of our Federal Govt Budget.

Now W Bush collects lot more plus he borrows 200-300 billion for the deficit every year.

I really want Sen Obama follow the fiscal discipline of Bill Clinton.

Probably, he won't, because he does NOT like the Clintons politically and economically! That's the difference between a Liberal Vs a Moderate, I suppose.

Maybe, I am biased against Liberals like Carter and BHO.; June 04, 2008 12:40 AM
apissedant said...: nice Bill face too; June 04, 2008 12:40 AM
suzihussein22 said...: Hippolytus-Could the magic number be 2240?; June 04, 2008 12:43 AM
Oregon Dem said...: Hippo:

Delegate count for Obama 2331 by Sunday night.

= = = = =

To the rest I agree, there is no reason to sit back and bask in glory.

The real work now begins.

I do believe that we will never count StopObamaNow / Yamaka / Anon Dem in NY (all the same blogger here). Nor may we ever convince Aunt Jean and a couple of others.

I heard an interesting story today - Republican 527s were paying $0.10 per post to bloggers that went on to Democratic / progressive websites for each post that really stirred up the debate.

If true, Yamaka and Aunt Jean made a pretty good salary....

I have appreciated the words and thoughts of many here and will continue to do so.

= = = = =

Most of all there are three things that are very important:

(1) Matt, Oreo!!!! Fantastic job you have done here - I bow to your dedication - thank you very much!

(2) Congrats to Senator Clinton, Senator Obama, former Senator Edwards, Senator Biden, Senator Dodd, Governor Richardson, and all the rest for giving the Democratic Party the best field of candidates a party could ever ask for to HAVE to choose between.

(3) Congrats to Senator (President elect!) Obama for showing that we, the American people, can believe.

Good night all.; June 04, 2008 12:43 AM
Kujo said...: Hippolytus:

Yes I will be in. Right now I have 3 super computers crunching the numbers. Should see the results in a few minutes.; June 04, 2008 12:46 AM
justin said...: Kujo-

Couldn't the definition of fiscal conservative be molded to suit nearly any purpose?

Ant, and others-

Regarding healthcare, there are some terms I'd like clear.

Healthcare does not = health

Medicine does not = medication

For anything remotely resembling Universal Care, I think we will need to do a better job with prevention (this is the place to put the money to decrease the need for MRIs...).

But we can't initiate Univ Care before we work toward a healthier populace. We'll go broke. We will.; June 04, 2008 12:47 AM
Hippolytus said...: softspoken22 said...
"Hippolytus-Could the magic number be 2240?"
________
Sure...is that your entry?; June 04, 2008 12:47 AM
vwis said...: Goodnight, I see better days ahead and today was great!; June 04, 2008 12:48 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Someone wanted to know what happened to my Math [sic]?

Well. It just didn't work, period.
The SDs did not buy the Most Popular Vote argument! It is their problem!

Maybe a simplistic argument works when you are trying to sway simplistic-thinking people.

However, the unpledged delegates are NOT simplistic thinking, and they take as many factors into account as they think are necessary. One of which is the plain reading of the rules, which state that the Democratic nomination is based on a delegate count, not who won the most total votes.

Mike; June 04, 2008 12:48 AM
apissedant said...: Yam,
He, as well as everyone in this thread, subscribes, supports, and loves Bill Clinton fiscal policy (minus NAFTA). Your numbers on government waste are terribly inaccurate. Also, some waste will always be there, cutting waste to 0 would actually cost more money than leaving it how it is. The goal is to minimize waste, not eliminate it. Same with crime, poverty, and everything else we judge as bad.
We currently spend over 500 billion dollars a year on interest on the national debt. We spend nearly 800 billion on the military, including Iraq and Afghanistan that is. This is over 1.3 billion dollars in combined costs, with tax revenue totaling only about 2.7 trillion dollars. This means 50% goes to military and interest. This does not include roads, health care, research, administration, education, social security, welfare, foreign aid, law enforcement, the prison system, or any of the other government programs. 50% waste is a silly number. I would venture to guess that the average fortune 500 company has a comparable percentage of waste to the federal government, but neither are 50%.; June 04, 2008 12:49 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Hillary Clinton said...

Help! I'm running for President and I can't seem to stop?
________________

THAT IS HILARIOUS!!!

To Yamaka- Let's see you said you would blog for Obama if he passed the 2209 mark, correct? And if he won the popular vote, correct? Well they just said on MSNBC that once Montana has finished coming in OBAMA WILL HAVE WON THE POPULAR VOTE EVEN WITH MI, FL, and PR included. And Obama is almost at the 2209 mark --- so get those fingers ready ;)

OBAMA '08; June 04, 2008 12:50 AM
Keryl said...: I think fiscal conservatism is not an unwillingness to spend money, so much as a lack of willingness to waste it.

I use the terms not in the political sense, but in their literal sense. I think Liberals can be fiscally conservative. And Conservatives have damn well been fiscally liberal.

Some examples of the difference...being fiscally conservative on improving schools demands that we not just give teachers and administrators raises. It demands that we eliminate administrative waste, take on the teachers union regarding merit pay and protecting bad teachers, and reduce spending on programs that sound good but don't work.

Perhaps I should switch to using fiscally "responsible" and fiscally "irresponsible" so as not to apply some sort of idealogical taint to my perspective.; June 04, 2008 12:52 AM
greywolf said...: I just wanted to come in and say Hi to everyone. And to thank all of you for your great comments. Although some are diehard Clinton supporters, it is time to stop talking about who what when why and where as it applies to either candidate. Obama has won the nomination from the democratic party. NOW is the time to UNITE under one candidate and get to the task of putting him in the White HOuse. I personally would appreciate everyone stopping all this divisive talk and do what is right. Those that can not do that I would hope will find some other venu to act up and act out.

Matt and Oreo... this is a great site and I hope we keep it going all the way through November.; June 04, 2008 12:56 AM
greywolf said...: good night and see ya all tomorrow. Keep the numbers going..I would love to see a ton of endorsements for Obama.; June 04, 2008 12:57 AM
apissedant said...: kujo,
I agree with you. However, (hahaha I always have a however... I can't help it)
Much of that preventative care means frequent checkups with a doctor, instead of just going when you're sick.
Another major item is our diet. The poor are most likely to become overweight, because of the cost of food and the lack of ability to exercise. My wife got stopped five times when she decided to walk to work, including by a police officer. There was no sidewalk, and people were completely astonished that someone would walk.
We need more funding to quality health and fitness programs to prevent our children from becoming unhealthy.

Also, as I have mentioned so many times, my wife is Dutch. She was absolutely astonished at the cocktail of drugs that so many here take. Drugs are a quick easy band-aid that are over prescribed here, I agree. That one seems harder to fix.; June 04, 2008 12:58 AM
Yamaka said...: My Two Cents on a fiscally conservative administration (like Bill Clinton's was):

1. The President should have strong view as to the optimal size of the Federal Budget. Clintonites, like me, believe that it should not be bigger than 18% of GDP.

2. The President should be very careful about the size of the federal agencies/bureaucracies. Clinton removed several thousands of federal jobs during his tenure with the help of VP Gore. These were mostly redundant jobs not needed at that time.

3. The President should have the view that the Private Sector can do most of the functions efficiently than the Public Sector, except the bare minimum of matters like Military, Public Health, new R&D of emerging technologies etc.

4. The President must focus on creating more jobs, income and wealth rather than redistributing jobs, income and wealth.

Plus similar thinkings.....; June 04, 2008 1:00 AM
Kujo said...: I think the SD's will want a balance. They want everyone to know that Obama won the primary. They need to see the figure get past 2206.

At the same time out of respect for HRC, they will want to show the race is close. We will have about 18 SD's who are not assigned.

But I see it going to be very hard for a SD to come out now and say I am for Clinton, she will make a good President. But some SD's will want to wait until Clinton and Obama secure her future and she resigns peacefully.

So by Sunday, about 30 SD's will not commit yet plus the other 18.

so lets say by Sunday Obama will have 2230 grrrrrrrrrrrr Justin

ok then a wave of luck will have it and 10 more will switch from Clinton to Obama

2240 grrrrrrrrr soft spoken

But 5 will forget to anounce before midnight

2235; June 04, 2008 1:00 AM
justin said...: Keryl, Kujo-

Thanks for the lesson. I like "fiscally responsible." This makes sense as I can imagine the difference between spending because we can and spending because we should. Also, it has that fantastic word responsible.

The spending on the war seems to have dwarfed all else. I respect our troops and they deserve our support (including a new GI college bill) but the war itself does not deserve the funding it is consuming.

Anyway, too deep. On a brighter note, congratulations to Sen Obama on his victory, and to Sen Clinton for the spirited and plentiful support she received. Start looking at their policies, not too many differences. 2 strong Americans.

Obama '08/'12; June 04, 2008 1:00 AM
Kujo said...: Yamaka,

that could not of been you.

That post was actually intelligent.

I am not trying to be rude, but most of your post have been beyone realism.; June 04, 2008 1:02 AM
apissedant said...: keryl!!!
LOVE THE POST! Fight the Unions when they're wrong, fight the companies when they're wrong. Do what's right when it is right! Merit pay is long since overdue. Teachers that do their jobs well, or teach more needed or more difficult subjects deserve more pay. Those that are ignoring our children and collecting a paycheck need to find alternate employment. In the first education class I took, they informed us... if I remember correctly... that 75% of our teachers come from the bottom 25% of their graduating class. Not good.; June 04, 2008 1:03 AM
Markk said...: Keyl,

Well, thinking and hoping that Senator Obama is going to be fiscally responsible really does go to the heart of the matter. For better or worse (and most Dems thought 'for better' obviously), he isn't a long-standing Washington insider-type.

Here's my hope for Senator Obama and his undeniably VERY liberal voting record...

Much as Senator McCain had to 'move to the right' in order to win the nomination and thus maybe appeal less to Reagan Democrats and independents but secure more of the 'core Republican' vote, I'm hoping that Senator Obama's voting record is a reflection of the fact that he's a 'new guy' on the Hill and wanted to bow to the Dem leadership as much as possible.

But again, due to the fact that he doesn't have an extensive voting record, this is just a 'hope' rather than a history. He doesn't have a history of bipartianship along the lines of Senator McCain, that's for sure...

I'm less concerned about Senator McCain not being truthful about wanting to cut spending and more concerned that he simply wouldn't be ABLE to do it given both the Dems and Reps propensity towards BIG government right now in Washington. Let's not forget that it's Congress that controls spending, not the Executive branch...

Softspoken,

No, it's true that it's not just an income level that makes a Republican but it does make a difference. Higher taxes means less investment money and I LIKE taking chances with opening new small businesses... Something I would have to pull back on if I suddenly had less liquid income laying around.

Plus most of my sociopolitical views ARE decidedly conservative. Anti-gun control (we Arizonans like our firearms :P ), small government, pro-business, strickt constitutionalism, anti-RoeVWade (although I'm pro-choice personally I think RvW is 'bad law' and one of the intrusions of Federalism on state's rights)

So all in all, yes, I tend to be a pidgeon-holed as a Republican...

Incidentally, the 'service industry growth' you're talking about is more a reflection of the changing world economy than it is an indictment of the Bush Administration IMO. Growth in that sector (low to mid-range jobs) was rampant during President Clinton's time in office too... Let's not lose sight of the fact that Presidents are in many ways only cheerleaders. They aren't Gods that can dictate where growth and losses in the job market take place. They can help as much as they can, but long before Presidents Bush or Clinton came into power, the days of a union manufacturing worker working for 40 years at the same job and retiring were coming to an end. That's the influence of the global marketplace...

Kujo,

Well, I'm actually still a firm believer about having a sizeable military presence in the middle east. As I've mentioned before, I don't (and never did) care about WMDs. The war WAS about oil and that was perfectly fine to me so I agree with Senator McCain's approach to the conflict there. (Anyone see the little tiny article on MSN that American and civilian losses last month in Iraq were the lowest since the actual military conquest ended? It's progress IMO.)

Senator McCain had no real choice but to 'fall more in line' if he ever wanted to have a chance to secure a Republican nomination, that's just political realism unfortunately.; June 04, 2008 1:04 AM
suzihussein22 said...: kujo-grrrr back at ya :); June 04, 2008 1:06 AM
Aunt Jean said...: To all the Obama supporters, but the most to Obama ccongratulations. All I will add is this. I pray that he is truthful and really works for the american people and don't disappoint the people that rallied around.him.Good night to all.Jean; June 04, 2008 1:07 AM
Independent Voter said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 04, 2008 1:07 AM
Independent Voter said...: gnight aunt jean, and thank you! I'm am positive he will work toward turning this country in a better direction than it is headed now.; June 04, 2008 1:08 AM
apissedant said...: Yam,
Good post, I agree completely on 2 and 4, and mostly on 1 and 3.

On both of these, it is important to never be too strict. Did you like FDR? Remember, his New Deal was INSANE! He completely blew spending out of the water, and had the government take over a lot of previously unthinkable jobs. Basically, I would keep exactly what you have said, and add one thing.

5. The President must be flexible with his ideals and goals to insure the well being of the nation.

6. The President must always act in accordance with the Constitution.; June 04, 2008 1:08 AM
apissedant said...: Goodnight and thank you aunt jean. I wish you nothing but the best.; June 04, 2008 1:09 AM
Yamaka said...: Folks:

I am willing to blog for BHO.

I am waiting to read about his final platform on

Taxation
Fiscal discipline
Health Care
Foreign Policy
War
Military Expenditure etc.

I am sure his position for the GE will be quite different from what he was espousing for the Primary.

Stay tuned.; June 04, 2008 1:09 AM
justin said...: Ant said

"Much of that preventative care means frequent checkups with a doctor, instead of just going when you're sick."

I don't know. Doctors are not very good at preventative care. The usual approach is chief complaint, followed by history and physical, then diagnosis and treatment. I always had trouble when the chief complaint wasn't there. Preventative medicine isn't necessarily medicine.

"Another major item is our diet. The poor are most likely to become overweight, because of the cost of food and the lack of ability to exercise. My wife got stopped five times when she decided to walk to work, including by a police officer. There was no sidewalk, and people were completely astonished that someone would walk.
We need more funding to quality health and fitness programs to prevent our children from becoming unhealthy."

You've hit it here. We need a healthy culture! Promote a walk to work, build the sidewalks, reward the behavior!

As to the polypharmacy, nobody wants that. Ask a patient taking 10 meds if they want to take less they'll say yes. Ask their doctor if they wish the patient was on fewer meds, they'll say yes. Ask the doc which meds to stop, and there will be an eerie silence.

Back to prevention.

-I'm off to sleep in a few, g'night; June 04, 2008 1:10 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 04, 2008 1:11 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Aunt Jean,

Goodnight to you.
I hope you are feeling better.

Sweet dreams,
Leah; June 04, 2008 1:14 AM
apissedant said...: markk,
I once believed RvW was bad law, and a giant reach by the Court. I recently read a book that changed my mind. I recommend you pick up, "Becoming Justice Blackmun." It is a great book, about Justice Blackmun obviously, and he wrote the deciding opinion in the case. Both he and Chief Justice Burger voted for it. Both were Nixon appointments. It isn't specifically about RvW, but it has a chapter dedicated to it. I was impressed.
I am personally pro-choice for strictly fiscal reasons. I honestly do not like abortions except for the whole health of mother, rape, incest, and child viability reasons.; June 04, 2008 1:16 AM
Kujo said...: Many people forget that Reagan was credited in bringing down the USSR by forcing them to ruin their economy funding a war that we would insure they could not win.

Now look at what is happening.

Bush administration is compaining that Iran is funding the gorillas in Iraq (just like we did). No kidding.

They are trying to bring us down without losing a single person. Attacking our economy.

Does McCain understand this. NO. He is of the breed that says we can not lose we can not lose, when he does not even understand what the game is and who are the players.

40% drop in the dollar and it is not stopping yet.

For me, I make my money in Asia so when I return the profits back to the dollar, I am happy.

But I am an American and proud of it. It does not give me any pleasure in having more VCR's then the next guy.

My wife puts pressure on me to move to Singapore because they have better english taught schools. This is embarrasing.

The question now is Why Obama and not McCain. This, to me, is a much easier answer then why Obama over Clinton. Yes many of us on this site got sick of the campaining tackics of Clinton are now celebrating.

Too many of us focused on the winning and losing between Clinton and Obama. We say we would vote for anyone else but Clinton (or Obama). Even I hear people saying if Clinton is Obama's VP then I am voting for McCain or not voting or ....

Its not about Clinton, its about making our education system respectable, making our health care respectable, making our country respectable.

Truth of the matter, Obama will not be able to do it alown. We will all need to work together as Amercians.; June 04, 2008 1:17 AM
Markk said...: Ant,

The weak dollar is honestly almost meaningless to me on a personal level. I make more money than I did eight years ago, period... Most Americans don't go overseas often and while the dollar being weak is bad peripherally for things like oil (although that's still pegged to the dollar too for now), a weak dollar makes for better exporting and other various 'silver-lining' issues.

The dollar losing value was almost inevitable given the influence of emerging markets like China and India. American money just isn't as big a piece of the pie as it once was.

I'm better off now than I was eight years ago, that much I see for myself and my standard of living... But that's something I don't say 'good job President Bush' on. People that wait for, of all things, a presidential administration to bail them out or increase their standard of living aren't probably the type of people who are going to thrive even in the best of economic times...; June 04, 2008 1:18 AM
apissedant said...: Goodnight Justin! I'll agree our doctors here are not good at preventative care, because almost no one goes for preventative care. Other nations are not so strict. They realize the value of stopping the problem before it grows out of control. Our doctors could be retrained... maybe. ;); June 04, 2008 1:18 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Yamaka said .. (***MY COMMENTS MIXED IN)

2. The President should be very careful about the size of the federal agencies/bureaucracies. Clinton removed several thousands of federal jobs during his tenure with the help of VP Gore. These were mostly redundant jobs not needed at that time.

*** Obama has said we need SMART GOVERNMENT - I think he will restructure what we already have and he said he would not add agencies without eliminating useless ones.

3. The President should have the view that the Private Sector can do most of the functions efficiently than the Public Sector, except the bare minimum of matters like Military, Public Health, new R&D of emerging technologies etc.

*** Right now under Bush they are pulling the National Guard off of the U.S./Mexico border and replacing them with PRIVATE companies. I strongly disagree with this!

4. The President must focus on creating more jobs, income and wealth rather than redistributing jobs, income and wealth.

*** Under Obama you will see a million+ green jobs created.

I could say more but I've been celebrating with RUM and Coke the past hour or so ...; June 04, 2008 1:24 AM
Markk said...: Ant,

I'm a pretty strict constitutionalist... The same belief that RvW is bad law is the same belief that leads me to believe the Federal government needs to stay out of state issues like medicinal marijuana and what I guess I'd now call 'Terry Schiavo'-type issues.

The original founders were firm believers that the United States should be made of up of people living in different states under different laws of their own choosing and the Constitution spelled out the specific duties of the Federal government... What we have these days is rampant Federalism and RvW falls in that catagory to me...; June 04, 2008 1:24 AM
justin said...: I said I was out, now I can't help one more post.

I reject the idea that anyone who is pro-choice is in any way in favor of abortions in general. It is the specifics that are important.

We are obligated to work toward the fewest possible abortions. At the same time, keeping the procedure safe and legal for those who never intended to have to make the most difficult decision is important to me.

Sen Obama had some thoughtful words on the subject...

"Mr. Obama: “The issue of abortion, I don’t think, has gone away. People think about it a lot, obviously you do and you feel impassioned. I think that the American people struggle with two principles: There’s the principle that a fetus is not just an appendage, it’s potential life. I think people recognize that there’s a moral element to that. They also believe that women should have some control over their bodies and themselves and there is a privacy element to making those decisions.

“I don’t think people take the issue lightly. A lot of people have arrived in the view that I’ve arrived at, which is that there is a moral implication to these issues, but that the women involved are in the best position to make that determination. And I don’t think they make it lightly. I don’t think they make it callously"; June 04, 2008 1:25 AM
apissedant said...: markk,
Your view on the dollar is not quite correct. We import more than we export, so that means things we want/need are more expensive. Those of us not in the higher tax brackets are definitely feeling the pinch on more than just gas. Like you said, "because of the international economy."
Anyone waiting for a President is an idiot and will never be well off. We can agree on that. However, the President has a rather large influence on the average. The average person is worse off now than 8 years ago. There are plenty of people who are better off, but more people are worse off than better off.
Our currency not being a big influence is BECAUSE OF, not THE REASON FOR the decline in value.
There is an indicator that economists use about what type of money the international community likes to have and use. 10 years ago, the dollar was 95% or so... it has now dipped to about 75%. The change has not been in Chinese money or Indian money, but the Euro. China and India aren't in Europe, nor in Canada. Canadian and European money is growing in value to our money, not just Asian money. This cannot be explained by Asian trade, because they are also suffering from this, albeit to a much lighter extent. This involves their import and export laws though, not simply "free market."

I had another point but I lost it.
I figure that's enough for now anyways.; June 04, 2008 1:26 AM
suzihussein22 said...: markk-I am appreciating your views.

My Benadryl is kicking in again so I must say goodnight all.; June 04, 2008 1:30 AM
apissedant said...: Justin,
I agree, and did not mean to imply that those that are prochoice believe in abortions for everyone.
I know though, that at least my one sister has used abortion as birth control, and for no other reason. She didn't want to get bloated on the pill, and she didn't like the feel of a condom. This is ridiculous and despicable. The ironic part is she was, and was dating a Republican.
I realize late term abortions are used when the mother is dying, or when the child isn't viable. I realize that for the first several months, the child is actually just a blob of genetic material. I just personally could not do that to my child unless it was not viable for some reason. Viable I use very loosely I would add. My version of viable differs quite a bit from my wife's.; June 04, 2008 1:30 AM
justin said...: Goodnight all (really this time)
-Justin; June 04, 2008 1:31 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Here's an example of fiscal responsibility.

If more people would spend a few more dollars going (or the insurance companies would allow them to) for check-ups, maybe the nascent hypertension could be controlled by diet and exercise. Cost? A couple of doctor visits, co-pay of $0 to $50. A bit of change in diet that shouldn't cost anything, or very minimal.

However, when insurance company policies don't encourage a person to go to the doctor when they feel well, the hypertension becomes life-threatening when found. Then it's onto medicines that cost the patient (if they have insurance) $10 to $50 per month, $300 or more per month if they don't have insurance.

What happens if the drugs don't work? A visit to the hospital, probably to the emergency room, at a cost of $500 to $1,000 PER DAY. If the patient is fortunate to have good insurance, a well-paying job with good benefits, they might have a couple thousand in hospital expenses, plus time off from work. If they don't have good insurance and/or a good job with good benefits, they might have $20,000 to $100,000 in expenses.

Then after leaving the hospital, drugs at $10 to $50 per month if they still have insurance, $300 or more per month if they don't have insurance. And if they can't go back to work, they probably won't have insurance.

So an initial $0 to $50 doctor's appointment might allow the entire economy to save tens of thousands of dollars, if not hundreds of thousands.

And just think. The insurance companies wouldn't need to pay out all that money, could lower the cost of the premiums, and still make just as much profit as they are doing now.

I could also give a similar argument about home repairs - a simple $10 cost (leaking toilet tank?), or two hours of work (cleaning the leaves from the gutters?), might save you hundreds or thousands in unneeded future repairs, or water bill, etc.

A few dollars spent on fixing roads would save thousands of drivers hundreds of dollars each in auto repairs caused by the bad roads, not to mention how much less congestion might happen, thus speeding traffic and lowering commuting and transportation costs.

There is an old saying that you need money to make money. It also can be said that sometimes when you spend a little bit of money wisely, you can save many times that amount later on.

Mike; June 04, 2008 1:32 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: I am not an Obama kool-aid drinker like some people might think I am. I am a 48 year old woman and I am not naive. I have not followed Obama blindly. I do think he is a good man with a good heart and I believe family is the most important thing to him in his life.

I grew up with my grandmother and tonight when he was thanking people in his family he did not mention his grandmother with the rest of his family ... and then after some more THANK YOUs to people he then talked about his grandmother (mother's mother) and how much she means to him in his life. I think we saw into his heart this evening - and he was speaking the truth and I also felt very sad that his mother and his grandfather (mother's father) were not still alive to see where their Barack has ended up. I think that tonight was bitter sweet for Obama and I am sure he was thinking how much he wished his mother and grandfather were here to share this moment with him.

.; June 04, 2008 1:34 AM
Keryl said...: So Markk -- what's making you flirt with the dark side? Is it the war? Actually, you sound a bit more libertarian than republican.

Interestingly Obama has gotten into trouble because of his stances on most of the below items from both sides of the spectrum, which I think is always a good sign that he's a pragmatist focused on advancing the ball, not idealogical trappings.

He pissed off the gun control lobby in Illinois because he's pretty reasonable about gun ownership, with his belief that new laws aren't necessary to limit gun ownership in downstate rural areas(which is most of Illinois and they love the guy) but we might require a different approach for the inner city. It's one thing to have gun show loopholes in farm country. It's arming a gang militia in the city. (which of course pissed of the 2nd amendment folks because gang members are citizens, too who should have access to the guns they want until they're in jail.

He's gotten into trouble with both sides of the abortion issue. Because on the left it's some sort of blasphemy to admit that there's anything wrong with anybody getting an abortion where and when they want, and of course on the right it's some sort of blasphemy to to admit that abortion is not always an evil act of murder.

My point being, if you really listen to him, and his positions, and how he voted in the state legislature you'd find he seems to have (shockingly) respect for the average american's ability to look at some of these issues in shades of gray. I think his speech on race, in substance, was like this. He can at once articulate the anger and desire for retribution by the AA american community having suffered centuries of oppression and of course contemporary racism, and the extraordinary rationality of a poor white family's anger that the black doctors kid is taking their poor white kid's slot at Cornell. Not a lot of politicians will cover that kind of nuance. Most take a side, run for the edge of the argument where they can be "correct".

Obama seems to try to find the point of action. On abortion, the position that people who favor reproductive rights and those who don't both want to reduce the demand for abortion. And so this is where the conversation starts with him.

Affirmative action was supposed to be rail against institutional barriers to deserving students who would otherwise not have a chance. By understanding that some of those socio-economic barriers are different now, and that perhaps it is more of a class struggle than a race one is a pretty nuanced position, but IMHO the right one.

Yikes, I've gone on far too long, but it is this kind of talk that made me actually get involved in politics for the first time in my adult life. And it makes me believe that there really is a better way, and that Obama can make that a reality.

g'night.; June 04, 2008 1:37 AM
apissedant said...: mike,
I completely agree.; June 04, 2008 1:40 AM
Yamaka said...: My Two Cents on Health Care Costs:

1. As many States are doing now, Fed must take a leading role on Malpractice Suit Reform: Create a Tribunal of Medical Experts and Non-Medicos to adjudicate most of the complaints before the suits go to the Court.

Limit the punitive damages to a portion of the compensatory damages.

This will help doctors to drop the practice of "Defensive Medicine" which costs nearly 20% of total medical costs.

2. We spend too much on record keeping. Quickly convert ALL to e-records with safety/confidential protocols in place.

3. Of course, encourage Preventive Medicine more from early childhood.

3. From early school days, emphasize on proper nutrition, exercise and body fitness.

4. We spend too much money on pre-term births and on very old people, neglecting the middle mostly. We need to have a societal discussion as to who needs more care at what costs.

5. Although I like the Universal Health Care conceptually, we need a robust competition between privately run insurance sector and the Govt run health plans to improve services and cut costs.

And...... add.....; June 04, 2008 1:41 AM
tmess2 said...: On economics, I tend to believe that by necessity this country needs to start thinking austerity budgets. We have borrowed so much, that we need to start paying the privately held debt down before we have to start using general revenue to redeem the debt held by the Social Security Administration.

We were in a good position to do this at the start of this Administration but rather than seeing the surplus as money that we (the taxpayers) owed to the creditory the Bush Administration saw it as money that could be returned to the taxpayers.

A couple years ago we had a good Democratic Governor in Washington (not that the current one isn't good) who took the basic approach at the start of his first term that every program director needed to come in and justify the budget from scratch (as opposed to the normal approach of discussing changes to the current budget). In my mind that is the debate that we rarely have in this country -- 1) what programs deserve to be funded; 2) how much should be spent on them; 3) what can we afford to spend total. While that debate might not lead to a balanced budget (i.e. we may decide that we need to spend more than we can afford), it at least forces folks to confront which programs need to be on the chopping block first.; June 04, 2008 1:43 AM
apissedant said...: keryl,
Another great post.
I disagree with the gun control argument though. That's a long issue I won't get into tonight.; June 04, 2008 1:44 AM
tmess2 said...: Actually, malpractice reform has no bearing on medical costs. If you ever look at the financial statement of an insurance company, you will see that a major component of their income is investment income. Likewise, the largest component of their expenditures is the administration of the insurance company (i.e. payments to secretaries, agents, executives) with investigating claims second and actual payment of claims third. The biggest factor on changes in medical malpractice premiums is not claims but whether it is a good year for the companies investments.; June 04, 2008 1:47 AM
apissedant said...: Yam,
I disagree with 1 and 5. The punitive damages BS was a Republican created silly argument over effectively nothing. Huge punitive rewards are rarely, if ever given.
Without them... well look at military health care. It is the worst thing I have ever experienced. I have a bone bent 40 degrees in one hand. I had surgery on the hand and the doctor informed me the swelling would go down. I informed him it was a bone. He was a Commander, so he again informed me the swelling would go down. I left.
I like holding doctors responsible, because I've seen what happens when you don't.

Enron told us freeing up energy and allowing competition would lower prices, and instead they blew them through the roof. Competition does not always mean lower prices.; June 04, 2008 1:48 AM
Keryl said...: Yamaka - My god, I just agree entirely with your Health Care cost two cents. It's so...well... rational. Wow.; June 04, 2008 1:51 AM
apissedant said...: tmess2,
I like the idea. I wouldn't want it every year for every program, but on occasion it could do some good.; June 04, 2008 1:51 AM
apissedant said...: keryl!
No!!
1 and 5 are bad.
1 is bad for the exact reason tmess2 gave. Punitive damages are a nonstarter. It is a Republican created issue that doesn't exist. It costs VERY LITTLE

5 is bad because we have competition now and costs are skyrocketing out of control! The insurance companies are blaming the drug companies, the drug companies are blaming R&D, the doctors and the hospitals are blaming the insurance companies. Meanwhile all of these companies have done far better than the average company over the past 8 years.
Doctors are continually getting paid more every year, and they are more than keeping up with inflation.
Hospitals are making tons of money. Nonprofit hospitals have been found to have made BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN PROFIT. They put it in a bank account and don't spend it, and that way it doesn't actually count as profit.
Drug companies are making tons, and their R&D costs have remained steady. The increase in their costs has largely been in ADVERTISING.
Insurance companies are making tons, and malpractice is again, costing them very little. At the very least, the costs are not increasing at an unusual percentage. No where near as fast as their prices are increasing.; June 04, 2008 1:58 AM
tmess2 said...: Looking at the uncommitted add-ons, Reps, Senators, and DPLs, and the Texas State Convention, my hunch puts Obama at 2235 at the end of the day on Sunday.

p.s. Green Papers current alternative count (giving full weight to Florida, Michigan, and going back to 73-55 in Michigan with the 55 uncommitted, has Obama at 2207 currently.; June 04, 2008 2:02 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: There has been talk the past few days of the folks from the Clinton camp going over to work for the Obama camp.

I think this is a bad idea.

Hillary picked many people based on their loyalty to her and not necessarily on them being the best person for the job.

Hillary's advisers and staff apparently were not as good as Obama's so he needs to be careful trying to merge his folks with his.

Tuesday afternoon MARK PENN came out in an interview and said that Hillary should not quit because she still has a chance to win! That was pretty insane :)

I think Obama is wise enough that even if some of the Clinton staffers and advisers do merge into his camp that they will not be the top dog of whatever job they end up in.; June 04, 2008 2:05 AM
Yamaka said...: apiss:

On item 1 of HC costs, my position is NOT to totally eliminate punitive damages.

I am saying eliminate the frivolous law suits at the Tribunal level, and allow deserving cases to proceed to the Courts, and award punitive damages as a percentage of the compensatory damage.

Although, it is rare, some times they break the Insurance Co, who hike up the Malpractice premium and the cycle continues.

5. Right now about 50% of all Americans get their health insurance via private insurance companies, and are happy with them. We must keep them well, and the Govt plants must compete for the business to increase the services and contain costs.

Brining all to the Govt run plans is very very expensive and probably not necessary.

Enron, WorldCom and Tyco are a few examples of corruption. But vast majority of SP500 Companies are run very honestly, IMO.

Mostly, competition is good for individuals, companies, sectors and industries, also among countries! Maybe, too much cut-throat competition is counter-productive.

I invest in many of the US Companies, I read their Annual Reports.

We cannot throw the baby with the bath water.; June 04, 2008 2:09 AM
apissedant said...: leah,
I would say not top dog is the most important part. Also not one of the staffers that slandered him. I am sure there are several intelligent, quality staffers that could fold in though. He has to keep the people that got him where he is though, they are the most important. Bringing on a few extra is always good though. Especially if she has campaign offices in places where he doesn't. Use them to keep the momentum.; June 04, 2008 2:11 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: OH MY GOD!

Now James Carville and Terry McAuliffe are ready to help Obama! I hope they stay far away from the Obama camp. In my opinion they are both jerks! And Ickes can stay away too!

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/06/03/preston-top-clinton-supporters-ready-to-help-obama/

.; June 04, 2008 2:11 AM
apissedant said...: GM, Chrylser, Ford, and the airlines all swindled investors and employees also. None of them properly funded their pensions... as required and promised.

However, I am not advocating abolishing private companies tomorrow. I think some limits need to be placed on those companies and their costs though. I am just saying that private competition does not always benefit the consumer. There are thousands of examples of government run programs that actually run better, and at a lower cost than private companies. So basically, we agree on 5 as far as the action, just not on the principle of that action.

Many lawsuits have merit and are thrown out. I agree with the law that prevents shopping for the best district, but I do not believe in limiting damages. The judge has the discretion to reduce them if they are excessive. They can be appealed multiple times, and 12 of the defendant's peers awarded the damages in the first place. There are enough checks in the system to prevent too many from getting out of control. However, if they are limited in some way, special cases that deserve more will be helpless. Truly bad companies will be allowed to continue truly bad policies. Checks and balances without specific limits. That is my policy.; June 04, 2008 2:17 AM
apissedant said...: leah, yamaka, and anyone else still here... GOODNIGHT!

Yam, it is amazing to see how much we all can agree on when we stop just slamming each other's candidate. To think it was all brought on by a visit from a Republican too.; June 04, 2008 2:18 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: apissedant -

Yes, the campaign offices in the states should be manned but Obama should (and I am sure he will) keep his main staff in place at his headquarters. He knows that they are who have helped to get him to where he is and he has a winning team at the moment.

There are those people like Carville, Penn, Ickes, McAuliffe, etc. though that need to stay away.

Also Gov. Ed Rendell needs to keep his distance since he has ties to Farrahkan.; June 04, 2008 2:19 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Montana is looking really good for Obama now on the map:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#MT

p.s. Goodnight apissedant.; June 04, 2008 2:21 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: South Dakota 100% in

Clinton votes: 54,179

Obama votes: 43,726

a net of 10,453 for Clinton; June 04, 2008 2:26 AM
Hippolytus said...: A great night, Hillary's lack of concession notwithstanding. Everybody should get their entries in re: Obama delegates by 12 am Sunday -- remember, the contest may end before then if we get to 50 remaining. The flood may continue tomorrow.
Good night everyone...I am so happy and proud. Pleasant dreams.; June 04, 2008 2:28 AM
Keryl said...: apissedant - okay I didn't agree with every support point, but while I don't think there should be a cap on punitive damages, I think medical malpractice suits are out of control. So many ObGyns leaving in the industry, and much of this is abusive. We have a blame obsessed society.

5 I agree with on principle. I'm not sure Universal Health Care will work in the country if profit is still the primary motive of most of the players. It works so differently in Europe, and I don't know it will work here. I lived in Germany for a while, and when I was pregnant here, my doctor would just bring out his ultrasound everytime I went and take a look to see "how zee leetle von is today, ya". He owned the machine and the cost for him to use it was nominal. He didn't require a specialist, because he wasn't afraid of being sued if he missed something, it was just another tool. Flash forward to my second pregancy in the US. 2 ultrasounds allowed. Only in special cases. Had to go to a specialist. Exhaustive exams checking every last molecule of baby development. Different office, huge machines. In germany the system can afford it. In the US we must make changes, and some of those are hard, hard changes. Do you choose not go give life saving treatment to an 80 year old that will give them maybe another month of life. In some countries they wouldn't even consider it giving treatment, in this country they wouldn't consider not. It's not just the profiteering thats our problem. Life at all costs at all extremes disproportionally serves the minority of severe cases. How much do you think it cost to keep Schiavo on life support for nearly a decade? But again, I digress.

Yam was being really rational, even if we don't agree.; June 04, 2008 2:39 AM
Joshua said...: Keryl

As one of those Ob/Gyn’s – well said!; June 04, 2008 2:46 AM
Joshua said...: I can tell you, from a provider’s perspective, Hillary was completely wrong on solution regarding health care in America. If you mandate insurance, all you are accomplishing is fattening up the wallets of health insurance companies. The truth is that you cannot get free healthcare in our economy. Not unless you are willing to:

1. Pay for my medical education, housing, food, family support, etc

2. Go to medical school yourself and give yourself all the free service you want.

As long as I am going to pay my way through medical education that lasts 24 years, while my peers are already in the work-force earning a living, there is no way I am going to give away my services free. Unless, of course, you are also willing to work at your job for free.; June 04, 2008 2:54 AM
Joshua said...: In a capitalist society, you control prices by the consumer being directly responsible to pay for what he consumes. It is insane for patients to go to their providers and demand Rolls Royce care and then say: “Bill my insurance.”

If you have no idea what anything costs, how are you going to limit your appetite? It makes as much sense to go to a restaurant and order the finest wine, finest food, etc and have no clue what they cost. Then expect a third party to haggle with the restaurateur about reimbursement.; June 04, 2008 3:00 AM
Keryl said...: Mike, interesting we briefly had another kind of insurance, I can't remember what it was called, but essentially you paid the first $5k or so before you're insurance kicked in. If you spent less, you kept it, if you spent more, you're insurance covered the rest. It was an interesting exercise. The problem is that medical billing is completely nonsensical. You can't really tell what you're being billed for, you don't know the cost of anything until it's too late, and nobody publishes prices or comparisons. Why does 4 hours in a hospital room hooked up to an baby monitor cost $4k? I don't know. Why does an aspirin cost $.40 at the drug store and $27 at the hospital? I don't know. And I don't think anyone else does either. But I wasn't allowed to leave or bring in my own aspirin. Nobody said, do you want this service? I would love to see the medical field operate more like a consumer business. But I don't think much of the medical field would like that very much. I worry that our system is so fundamentally flawed as to be irreparable. Do you have hope from inside the system?

Oh, and cool picture.; June 04, 2008 3:10 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: I am not well versed on health care enough to chime in - so I will just say I also think you have a NICE PHOTO ;); June 04, 2008 3:16 AM
Keryl said...: Hello Texas Leah. Sunshine gal. I'm guessing you're having a great night!; June 04, 2008 3:22 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Keryl-

It is almost 2;30am here in Houston. No sunshine here yet - but it will be here TOO soon. It has been miserably hot here in the mid-90's Fahrenheit.

I have had a wonderful day from the moment I awoke at 8:30am and started watching the superdelegates flood in for the past 16+ hours.

I am so happy that Obama has received the overwhelming support from all the new superdelegates today and all the people across America and around the world :)

I look forward to seeing how many more supers come on out tomorrow.

I am very grateful that I have lived long enough to see 'this extraordinary time in history' unfold before my eyes.

Obama '08; June 04, 2008 3:32 AM
Joshua said...: Leah, thanks. I am an Obamanican.

The issue is not healthcare per se. It is economics. If you force everyone to buy health insurance, the insurance companies have no incentive to reduce premiums. They can tell you: “take it or leave it,” knowing full well that you can’t leave it. On the other hand it does nothing to encourage providers to alter how they practice, nor patients to alter their demand or expectations.

If you remove the insurance companies completely, the patient will shop around for the best price/care. Better than mandate is universal coverage with everyone pitching in for the care of all – aka government insurance. But with the single payer system, you get socialized medicine: no incentive to innovate. The government will pay the doctor one price. He will provide the least amount of care for that money, or leave healthcare altogether if the pay is too low. No free lunch.; June 04, 2008 3:32 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Mike -

Okay, here goes.

Under Obama's plan there is no mandate from the government to purchase health care. You would have the option to buy insurance from an individual company or buy into the government plan. So, wouldn't that push the private companies to bring down the premiums if the government plan is cheaper?

Also, under Obama's plan there would be negotiations for a lower cost of prescription drugs - so drug companies would probably stop wasting money on television ads (that is a plus in my book). He has talked about putting money in 'medical research' which is a good thing.

I agree the whole medical system is really messed up. But I also know that in places such as Italy where there is government health care - the services are not up to the standards of the U.S.A.

Anyway I've drank too much rum this evening while celebrating and I have no idea what I have typed LOL ;)

I have all the thoughts in my head but I don't think they have all ended up in this post ;); June 04, 2008 3:42 AM
Joshua said...: Kerly,

Thanks. I really like Obama.

If the patient paid the doctor, she would easily know what everything costs. For example, you don’t go to a car showroom and pick the best car you want without first finding out the price.

Aspirin cast $27 in a hospital because:

1. You will sue when you get hives from it. It will cost the hospital $999,999,999 to defend the lawsuit even if it has no merit. They have go get your fraction of the $999,999,999 divided by the number of aspirins they dispense. Btw, there is an inherent risk of allergy with aspirin so this is not hypothetical. Some people with react negatively to every medical service. So that is part of the cost of doing business.

2. The patient in the bed next to you is getting the services and has no money. The hospital will not refuse him care. They will simply pass the cost of his care on to you, the paying customer.; June 04, 2008 3:47 AM
Joshua said...: Keryl,

You may not bring your own aspirin because the attending physician is totally responsible and liable for anything that happens to you while you are under his care in the hospital. If you took your own drugs and they interfere with his treatment, you will sue him. So, you may only take approved drugs from the hospital.; June 04, 2008 3:51 AM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Buonanotte (Goodnight)

The sun will be here in a few hours so I ought to go to bed ;)

I have to get up early to see how many more superdelegates we will get :)

Ciao,
Leah; June 04, 2008 3:52 AM
Joshua said...: Leah, you don’t have to sell Obama’s plan to me. His plan is the most sensible as an incremental step toward universal coverage. But the problem remains with universal coverage. The best plan is direct pay. You pay the doctor for his services. If you ask him for the cost ahead of service and he refuses, then you go down the street to his competition. I like free-market.; June 04, 2008 3:58 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: OK, here's my guesstimate on delegates by 1:00 am Monday (Hippo - midnight EST is 1:00 am EDT [Spring forward - remember? - VBG]:

As I write this, there are 2162 pledged and unpledged delegates for Senator Obama, 4.5 Edwards delegates, and 143.5 undeclared SDs.

I think 4 of the Edwards delegates will announce by the deadline.

2162 + 4 = 2166

I think 80% of the unpledged delegates will make an announcement prior to 1:00 am Monday, which would add 93.5 (leaving 50 SDs to endorse!)

2166 + 93.5 = 2259.5

In addition, 11 add-ons will be decided on Saturday [Kentucky - 1, Minnesota - 2, Pennsylvania - 3, Texas - 3, Vermont - 1, Mississippi - 1], and one on Sunday [Montana]. Of those 12, I think 9 will be for Senator Obama, 3 for Senator Clinton.

2259.5 + 9 = 2268.5 .

And that is my [first and] final answer.

Mike; June 04, 2008 4:00 AM
Joshua said...: Mike in MD, in my humble opinion, Obama has won the nomination. Delegate count, popular vote, electability, who is preferred by hard-working Americans, who won the important states, etc, are all moot. JMHO.; June 04, 2008 4:08 AM
Hippolytus said...: Mike in Maryland said...
"OK, here's my guesstimate on delegates by 1:00 am Monday (Hippo - midnight EST is 1:00 am EDT [Spring forward - remember? - VBG]"
________
You're absolutely correct, Mike in MD, as usual. Since I intended the deadline to be "before Sunday", may I please exercise sponsor's prerogative to correct my clerical error and close the contest at Sunday at 12 am EDT. Good God, I'm changing the groundrules once the contest is underway -- sound familiar? In this sense, perhaps this change is fitting. Hopefully, we can all agree on this without a RBC meeting.
Thanks for your entry, Mike in MD -- I'm not sure whether there is a method to your madness, or a madness to your method.; June 04, 2008 4:27 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Mike said...
. . . then you go down the street to his competition.

And what if you have a disease or condition where the next closest doctor who can manage the disease or condition is hundreds or thousands of miles away?

My sister suffers from pancreatitis. Her local doctor sent her to specialists in a city about 30 miles away. They couldn't get the situation under control, and recommended she see specific doctors in Indianapolis (Riley Hospital), Houston (Baylor) or Baltimore (Johns Hopkins). For my sister, there was no 'competition down the street'.

I have a genetic eye condition that will eventually have to be treated by corneal transplants. Although the condition is considered 'rare', it causes more than 20,000 corneal transplants to be performed per year in the US.

The best method of surgery for this condition is NOT available in most areas of the country, and is not yet available in even all the major metropolitan areas. There are very few doctors in Boston who do this procedure (one or two). In the entire New York City metro area, there might be a half dozen.

For me, Johns Hopkins is the closest place where this eye condition is being treated with the most recent advances in surgery for the surgery I will need. Next closest is Philly. If I didn't trust the doctors at Johns Hopkins, I might consider going to Atlanta, Indianapolis, Fort Myers [Florida], or Portland [Oregon], locations of doctors who were pioneering in the procedure, and made major refinements in it.

For someone in Montana, they might have to go to Portland, Denver, or Minneapolis to get treatment. That is not 'competition down the street'.

Your "then you go down the street to his competition" is a simplistic response, IMO. Free market principles can and do apply in many industries. Medical care is not one, though, where you can just drop it in, then say "Go" and it will be of fairly equal benefit to one and all.

Mike; June 04, 2008 4:30 AM
Mike in Maryland said...: Hippolytus said...
may I please exercise sponsor's prerogative to correct my clerical error and close the contest at Sunday at 12 am EDT.

By 12 am EDT, are you saying the time that will occur one second after 11:59:59 pm on Saturday, June 7, or are you saying the time that will occur one second after 11:59:59 am Sunday (noon)? VBG

Ever wonder why insurance companies state the the policy goes into effect at 12:01 am local time on a specific date? It is to prevent confusion of the exact time the policy is in effect.

And yes, I know now that you mean the time that occurs one second after 11:59:59 pm Eastern Daylight Time, Saturday, June 7.

Or you could have just stated 'the first midnight after the Belmont Stakes is run this year'. LOL

Mike

P.S., If you can't tell, I've worked with contracts (but not many insurance contracts) during my professional life. The 12:00 am and 12:00 pm arguments are avoided as much as possible when time frames are set into contracts.; June 04, 2008 4:40 AM
JayW said...: Two things were very clear from last nights speeches...

1. Obama will unite the country and be the next President of the United States.

2. Hillary is an delusional attention starved wench. Its sad to see what she has become.; June 04, 2008 7:40 AM
Karen Anne said...: Mike in Maryland,

Is your eye condition Fuch's Endo, by chance? I have that. You can find doctors trained in that procedure by the three "big guns" in the field. I have lost track of the web site that has that info, since I settled in i wait mode with mine a year or two ago.

They are not "down the street," but you shouldn't have to be hopping across states to find one.; June 04, 2008 7:50 AM
Mug said...: Good morning everyone.

Just some observations I made last night watching Hillary's "victory" speech.

Terry Mcauliffe introduced her as "the next president of the United States." The man has no credibility.

Did anyone catch the dufuss behind Hillary wearing glasses and mouthing inaudible replies to comments in her speech? I think he also blew her a kiss or two. Creepy!

Did anyone see the black man behind her to the left who wasn't smiling and was wearing a suit. I got the impression he was placed there as a VIC (very important color)to create the illusion of diversity among her supporters. I noticed the camera views kept cycling through the same 10 or so blacks in the audience.

McCain's speech looked like a couple hundred people crammed into a cafeteria. Clinton's speech looked like a few thousand people packed into a theatre. Obama's speech was in a packed arena.

Even after Obama clinched the nomination, Hillary still believes that she should be the nominee because that reflects the will of the people according to her fuzzy math of the popular vote count. She still believes that she's the stronger candidate to run against McCain. If I were Obama, I'd tell her under no uncertain terms that she must publicly renounce those beliefs before she can even be considered for the VP position.; June 04, 2008 7:55 AM
apissedant said...: leah,
I completely agree with your last response to me.

keryl,
I agree on Yam being rational, and I'm sure after you finished typing that you noticed my friendly statement to him.
I understand lots of huge changes need to happen, and there are some parts of our system that we probably don't want to give up, but there are others that I can't wait to vanish. The uninsured paying 4 times as much as the insured, causing those that can least afford health care, the ones that have to pay the most to receive it. Life saving operations being denied for financial reasons. Children and expecting mothers not being given proper checkups, and developing serious problems that were completely preventable.
Sure, it is sad with the 80 year old man, but isn't it even more said with a 6 year old boy from the mountains of West Virginia or Harlem? If I had to pick one, I would pick the child. In other countries they pick the child. In this country we pick the one with deeper pockets. I hope money is never that important to me.; June 04, 2008 7:57 AM
JayW said...: Mug,

You said:
"Did anyone catch the dufuss behind Hillary wearing glasses and mouthing inaudible replies to comments in her speech? I think he also blew her a kiss or two. Creepy!"
_____________________

That was totally the highlight of the speech. He was hillarious. Everytime the crowd started chanting he got the words wrong. That was a very big man with a very tiny flag in his hand.

Kind of reminded me of the "do you want some fries with that" guy.; June 04, 2008 8:01 AM
apissedant said...: keryl,
Love the response to Mike

Mike,
I would like to remind you that a large portion of your education was paid for by us as taxpayers. Also, there are plenty of other people, including myself that are going on to get master's or doctorates in other subjects that end up giving "free" services. Take school teachers. Many school teachers now have a masters or a doctorate, and they do not charge children for the education, are you arguing against that system? How do we prevent a child from continually failing since the service is free?; June 04, 2008 8:02 AM
JayW said...: I found it ironic that in Hillary's speach she spoke of all that gave money to her campaign...
mentioning the 11 year old that sold his bike and others.

How shameful!
Not to mention a silly thing to do since her campaign is still in debt.

How could she fix America's economy when she cant even balance her campaign's budget?

The more she talks, the less credibility she has. She really needs to just go away. (I hear they love her in Puerto Rico.); June 04, 2008 8:05 AM
Mug said...: jayw,

Regarding the dufuss:
He reminded me of the German homosexual in Sadra Bullock's rehab support group in the movie "28 Days" If you've never seen it, rent it. You'll see what I mean.; June 04, 2008 8:28 AM
Squirrel said...: This is going to cost the Dems $millions, all she wants is for her loans to be paid off, she couldn't give a damn about anything else.; June 04, 2008 8:30 AM
apissedant said...: mike in maryland,
I completely agree with your response to mike. This is weird.; June 04, 2008 8:31 AM
apissedant said...: mike,
Only emergency care is not refused. If he needs a transplant, he's dead.
This hospital charges him four times as much.
The law suit thing is such a nonstarter it is silly... I'm done talking about that.; June 04, 2008 8:35 AM
apissedant said...: jayw,
If you go back to the last page, you'll see a couple comments about his flabby arms shaking. I was laughing so hard. Also, I noticed that pretty much everyone behind her weren't chanting the right words. I could hear the rest the crowd, but they all seemed confused.; June 04, 2008 8:37 AM
ed iglehart said...: Emma (10:52), Good question!
November politics, I noticed! Third place, was it?
Or Dem, You just made me cry - again! I saw that bit too.

Markk, "The most inefficient business" has to be the Defense industry - inefficient in delivering value-for-money to us, its customers, but VERY EFFICIENT at delivering profits to itself and its cronies (watch for your hero McChip!) THAT's why we have such a deficit, and why huge increases in taxes are inevitable if we are to ever become solvent. I also agree with your "States rule" de-centralist view of constitutional matters, but agree with Justin's comments on abortion. on centralisation (British, but extendable).

Uncle John, Right ON!

Yam (in scrolling past) "lousy economic policy"??? I trust Paul Volcker's wisdom in endorsing BHO more than your opinion.

All, I've left out a lot of y'all (it's a huge scrolling screed after a late night), but, here's best wishes as we contemplate The FUTURE. And, I can't resist noting that, judging by his speech last night, McChip's best days are in the past.

xx for now
ed

AND THANKS AND KUDOS TO MATT, OREO AND YOUSRI!
xxxxxx; June 04, 2008 9:17 AM
Aunt Jean said...: obama 2253. Jean; June 04, 2008 9:18 AM
michael from Minesota said...: I spent most of last night listening to the MSM pundits. The best comment when ass follows:
We heard three speeches tonight. John McCain's speech was about Barack Obama, Hillary Clintons speech was about Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama's speech was about America. If this is the tenor of the campaign to follow the result should be pretty obvious. The "nattering nabobs of negativism" need to be put to sleep for the general welfare of the United States. (How often does a good Democrat get a chance to quote Spiro Agnew.
I'm just one of those hard working middle-class white men and I am wildly for our next president - Barack Obama. I am so excited I can’t contain it.
Michael from Minnesota
The "nabobs of negativisin" need to be put to sleep for the general welfair of the United States.
I'm just one of thouse hard woring white men and I am widly for our next president - Barack Obama.; June 04, 2008 9:27 AM
ed iglehart said...: I forgot.

A smileis always better than a a frown, so just smile!

Things can only get better!

YES WE CAN!

xxx
ed; June 04, 2008 9:29 AM
Amot said...: Mike, Aunty and all the rest,
Monday is off-topic :)
The big news is that Obama is the nominee under any scenario! If you seat at the moments FL and MI as is at 100% and give Hillary 73 in MI, Obama will still have 2236 delegates behind him!!! Hillary has to give up. I suggest she suspend and try to get some money back :) Poor little rich girl. If she agrees to VP slot (if offered) she is losing $20M, be cause she will has to drop out instead of suspend! And as someone said - is she drops out she is allowed to pay to herself only $250K out of the whole debt!; June 04, 2008 9:33 AM
Unknown said...: Hillary demonstrated last night that she is not qualified to be VP - she doesn't know how to behave like one.; June 04, 2008 9:48 AM
Karen Anne said...: What's the word on Hillary's campaign debt anyway? Is she financially responsible for her campaign's debts?

My understanding is that her funds for the general can't be used to pay that off unless a donor is below the $2,300 primary maximum and agrees.; June 04, 2008 9:53 AM
Karen Anne said...: And how does her loan to her campaign work in terms of taxes? Does she get to write that off?; June 04, 2008 9:54 AM
Uncle John said...: G'morning, all.

I'm going through the posts of last night and earlier this morning (up to 2:02 AM), and would like to make a few comments. I'll have to process the more recent posts later.

Kujo: right about our personal responsibility. Not just cheering winner of a football game. If all we do is party about Obama's victory then go back to business as usual, we will have missed the point. We'll get the government we deserve.

Justin: right. Fewer abortions. If legality helps that, fine. Personally, I think "pro-choice" and "control of body" are the wrong terms. They mask the fact that two bodies are involved, and one has no choice. I agree with Apissedant: no abortion for birth control. Self control on the part of the two involved. Compassion for all involved.

Mike, Apissedant: you're right about preventive medicine. McCain is right about controlling our medical costs; several bloggers here have correctly pointed out how we get less benefit per dollar than just about any other industrialized society. Preventive medicine is a place to start with health care cost controls.

Keryl: right about shades of gray, as on the abortion issue. Campaigns tend to whiten and blacken those shades, or "run for the edge" as Keryl puts it. Governance means dealing with the grays, with what's possible. And it sometimes requires seeing -- and *saying* -- that the guys and gals on the other side of the aisle could be right on some aspects of an issue.

Don't forget: go to hillaryclinton.com, congratulate her, and gently suggest that you Dems go into the GE campaign united. Not just against Sen. McCain, but for America.; June 04, 2008 9:58 AM
RobH said...: Amot:
DAMN YOU (and I mean that in a good way :) ....) You beat me to it by 20 minutes! I was about to post the following, but got caught up in catching up on last night's posts:

Obama has 2162 delegates right now.
If FL & MI get seated at full strength, he picks up another 29.5 plus 38.5 pledged delegates respectively. That's 2230 already, not counting the associated supers, the 20+ add-ons, etc.

DONE. DONE. DONE.; June 04, 2008 10:01 AM
RobH said...: Hippo,

I'll play the game, but with very little analysis.

2162 today, plus 7 add-ons on the weekend, plus....

(let's see of 144 remaining SD's most are chicken, and some are being held in reserve to force Hillary to actually concede and start "conciliating." - so maybe 50-ish. Any switches? Who knows.)

I'll take 2222 in the poll (simply because it's easy to remember, my favorite number is 2, and my street address is 22.); June 04, 2008 10:06 AM
Mug said...: All the talk of Hillary as the VP needs to cease. She still believes she's been cheated by the DNC. She still believes she's the stronger candidate to run against McCain. She still believes the nomination should be hers according to the "will of the people." To be plying for the VP position while still upholding those beliefs is ridiculous. She's making a subtle threat to Obama to give her the VP position or she'll keep the party split until the August convention. It's an empty threat because if she did that, it's political suicide. Obama should call her bluff and choose someone else as the VP.

In short, Hillary refuses to concede the nomination and at the same time wants the VP. The woman has lost her mind.; June 04, 2008 10:07 AM
ed iglehart said...: Mug,

"The woman has lost her mind."

Sadly, I fear you may be more right than anyone would wish.

;-(
ed; June 04, 2008 10:17 AM
Mug said...: You all may find this interesting:

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

The symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder revolve around a pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and sense of entitlement. Often individuals feel overly important and will exaggerate achievements and will accept, and often demand, praise and admiration despite worthy achievements. They may be overwhelmed with fantasies involving unlimited success, power, love, or beauty and feel that they can only be understood by others who are, like them, superior in some aspect of life.

There is a sense of entitlement, of being more deserving than others based solely on their superiority. These symptoms, however, are a result of an underlying sense of inferiority and are often seen as overcompensation. Because of this, they are often envious and even angry of others who have more, receive more respect or attention, or otherwise steal away the spotlight.; June 04, 2008 10:20 AM
Uncle John said...: Continuing processing after 0202 June 4:

Leah: I think Apissedant has the right approach here. There is talent on Hillary's team, and it would be foolish to ignore it. There are also divisive folks, but I'm sure the Obama folks are smart enough to know the difference.

Keryl: right about "blame obsessed" society. Also, too much of "professional victimhood". We risk becoming a society of whiners, one step from a society of losers. Blame and victimhood are related, and the antidote is personal responsibility with a dose of compassion. Didja hear Obama talking about parents' responsibility for their kids? Sometimes it's tough love -- but it's gotta be love, and the kids have to *know* it's love.

Check out what Mike said beginning at 3:00 AM. Health care costs will not come down until consumers and providers both have a stake in controlling them. If we always think, "well, the insurance will cover it", nothing much will change.

'Nuff for now.; June 04, 2008 10:27 AM
Independent Voter said...: Yam said "She won SD with double digit margin! How did that happen?"
--------

I can tell you exactly what happened. He started his general election campaign WEEKS ago! Plain and simple! He knew that after last night it would be over and that he would be the nominee!

He has been ignoring her over the last 2-3 weeks. She campaigned hard in SD.

He has been nothing but respectful to Sen. Clinton, he could have gotten down in the sewer like she did, but he refrained from doing so.; June 04, 2008 10:37 AM
greywolf said...: GM everyone. I hope everyone slept well and woke up fresh and excited, looking forward to bright and new future.; June 04, 2008 10:39 AM
JayW said...: DECISIONS, DECISIONS
Lets all hope Obama makes the best choice. I will be happy with anyone other than Clinton.
_____________________________

(Reuters) - Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois, who will claim the Democratic presidential nomination on Tuesday, has taken the first small step toward choosing a running mate.

Obama has asked Jim Johnson, former head of mortgage giant Fannie Mae, to begin research on potential candidates for the No. 2 slot on the ticket, media reports said. Johnson performed a similar task for Democratic presidential nominees John Kerry in 2004 and Walter Mondale in 1984.

Here is a list of some possible Democratic vice presidential candidates, in alphabetical order:

* Joseph Biden, 65 - The senator from Delaware, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, is a respected foreign policy expert who would give Obama authority on the issue. But Obama might not want to add a second senator to the ticket, and could be looking for a fresher face to reinforce his message that this election is about change and the future.

* Wesley Clark, 63 - A retired Army general and former NATO commander who ran unsuccessfully for the presidential nomination in 2004, Clark is a supporter of Hillary Clinton who could help rally the party and provide a boost on national security issues. But he did not run a strong campaign in 2004 and he would be unlikely to generate much enthusiasm among party activists.

* Hillary Clinton, 60 - Polls have shown strong Democratic support for a "dream team" ticket of Obama and Clinton, his top rival for the nomination. Obama has not ruled out the option, which would help unify the party after a grueling nominating battle. But Clinton also would bring complications, including the return of former President Bill Clinton to the White House. A joint ticket could help attract some of Clinton's supporters -- including women and white working-class Democrats -- who have been reluctant to support Obama.

* Chris Dodd, 64 - The Connecticut senator, a fluent Spanish speaker and expert in Latin American issues, is the chairman of the Senate Banking Committee and a former foe for the presidential nomination who quickly endorsed Obama after dropping out. He would help bolster Obama's foreign policy and economic credentials, but presents many of the same drawbacks as Biden.

* Chuck Hagel, 61 - The Republican senator from Nebraska, a conservative Vietnam veteran but outspoken critic of the Iraq war, would help Obama reach out to independents and Republicans and reinforce his promise to bridge partisan divides.

* Tim Kaine, 50 - The Virginia governor was one of Obama's earliest and strongest supporters and could help him in a state that traditionally has been Republican in presidential elections but has been turning Democratic in recent years.

* Sam Nunn, 69 - The former Armed Services Committee chairman from Georgia is a respected foreign and military policy voice, but his age and conservative view on some social issues might make him an awkward fit with Obama.

* Ed Rendell, 64 - The Pennsylvania governor has been one of Clinton's strongest campaigners and he could help woo her supporters and help deliver a key state. A former district attorney and the mayor of Philadelphia, Rendell has executive experience that could help Obama.

* Bill Richardson, 60 - New Mexico governor, a Hispanic, could help with Latino vote -- the fastest-growing segment of the electorate and a potentially vital voting bloc. A seasoned negotiator, the former energy secretary and U.N. ambassador would also bring foreign policy experience to the ticket as well as inside knowledge of how Washington works.

* Kathleen Sebelius, 60 - Two-term governor of Kansas could bring some vital elements to the ticket: she's a woman and as the leader of a mostly Republican state has shown she can work across party lines. But she is largely untested on the national stage.

* Ted Strickland, 66 - The governor of Ohio is another strong Clinton supporter who comes from a battleground state. A former U.S. congressman, the first-term governor is not well-known nationally.

* Jim Webb, 62 - The first-term Virginia senator, Vietnam veteran and former secretary of the Navy has written seven novels, including "Fields of Fire," considered one of the best novels about the Vietnam War. Webb could help Obama in a state that has turned more Democratic in recent years.; June 04, 2008 10:43 AM
Larry Parker said...: Here is a video of Obama's full 27 minute speech last night:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/
21134540/vp/24962416#24957941; June 04, 2008 10:44 AM
jean said...: Congrats to all Obama supporters.
I hope everything works.
We as a country are almost bankrupt.
I can only hope he can fix it.
I just want a future for my children that glows with prosperity,trust and love.
If he does not win in November I will be one ticked off mother.
And everyone knows, you never piss off Mom.
jean; June 04, 2008 10:47 AM
jean said...: By the way.
I was listening to the commentary locally here.
They think HRC would make a great Superior Court Judge.
Quite an idea.
jean; June 04, 2008 10:49 AM
Unknown said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 04, 2008 10:51 AM
ed iglehart said...: Mug,

SPOT ON! I've sent it to the BBC.

Hope you don't mind

Peace, brothers and sisters
xx
ed; June 04, 2008 10:53 AM
Unknown said...: Bob Beckel says here that Obama may not be able to stop Hillary from becoming VP.

Scary.; June 04, 2008 11:02 AM
michael from Minesota said...: My prediction for the end of week delegate count:
2162 - the current count
120 - New SD Endorsements
60 - Clinton to Obama SD Switches
8 - New Add-on SD's this week end
2250 - End of week count

I havent considered the posibility of more Clinton Pleged delegate switching which is certainly posible; June 04, 2008 11:12 AM
JayW said...: Jamie,

That sounds good in theory, but it isnt the way it will play out.

Even though the SD's could try to force Obama to take her as the VP, they wont.

They understand that it is as much of a personal decision as anything else. Whomever he chooses, he will be spending a considerable amount of time working with them over the next 4 years. If you cant stand someone... you dont want to be chained to them for 4-8 years.

They will let him pick who he is comfortable with... and it wont be the wench.; June 04, 2008 11:15 AM
Vicki in Seattle said...: anyone watching them on that American-Israeli panel today? apparently they are both there.; June 04, 2008 11:20 AM
greywolf said...: If I may weigh in.

We can speculate all we want as to what will happen between now and the convention. Who will Obama select as a VP is the hottest topic now. Who knows for sure, we can speculate all we want, all we can do is have faith that Obama will make that selection based on what he believe is best for this country as well as what is best for the ticket.
One thing for sure, I hope and pray with all that is in me that it will not be Senator Clinton. Yes she ran a good race, there were some real ugly and divisive comments from her camp as it relates to Obama and his ability to lead this country. Last night Senator Clinton had two options. She could take the high road, by being gracious. Or she could take the low road by threatening to continue her campaign, by sowing seeds of additional divisiviness, as well as holding hostage the prospects of a unified party.
She took the low road in my opinion, thus becoming unqualifed for the position of VP. That is just my opinion, and this is the last time I will voice that position or make comments for or negative towards her.
I will leave that selection process to the democratic nominee as it is his to make. I will support his decision regardless of my views and hope for the best.
I also hope that this party will quickly unite under one cause and that cause being a better, stronger, safer place for our children, and all those that will follow in the years to come. This applies to America, and the world as a whole.

as a foot note:
I am sitting here listening to Obama and Hillary address the AIPAC, she has yet to acknowledge Obama's success, which really ticks me off.

any way that is what I think and feel at this moment.; June 04, 2008 11:21 AM
greywolf said...: Total count for Obama, wow, so unpredictable. Hoping to see him in the 2300's by sunday night or Monday night at the latest.

I do not think Florida and Michigan will be seated at a full vote. To do so only opens the door wide for those that want to do their own thing. 1/2 vote needs to remain as such.; June 04, 2008 11:25 AM
Mug said...: Jamie,

If Obama can't stop Hillary from becoming the VP, his second option is after he's elected in November, send her on a good will mission to Bosnia. =); June 04, 2008 11:33 AM
Bob in Vancouver said...: In my humble opinion, I don't think that Obama should waste the power of a person like Hillary Clinton on the position of Vice President. In my minde he should be talking to her right now about being in his cabinet to direct, steer, and pilot the nations Universal Health Care Plan through the Congress and the Senate.

In a previous blog, I had mentioned the monumental fight that we had here in Canada with the drug companies, the doctors and the medical industry, to bring in our Universal Health Care Plan into fruition. They oppostion spent billions on the fight and doctors actually went on strike for a considerable time. We in fact, lost many doctors who moved to the US. I can tell you right now, the struggle will be collosal and it will take a Hillary Clinton to do the job.; June 04, 2008 11:47 AM
greywolf said...: This is a link to an article in the Huffington post that I strongly believe everyone should read from start to finish. Please read it all, do not jump around for talking points, because it is one very big talking point. I have been an Obama supporter from day one, and will always be, unless he does something to prove he no longer is deserving of that support (hope that never happens).
This is an article for everyone, especially those that stood with Senator Clinton.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hilary-rosen/i-am-not-a-bargaining-chi_b_105133.html; June 04, 2008 11:55 AM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Bob in V

Not sure I agree. Listening to her speach last night, she said she has been fighting for Health Care for 16 years. Sounds like she doesn't know how to get it done.

JMO; June 04, 2008 11:56 AM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 04, 2008 11:58 AM

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