Democratic Convention Watch: Open Thread

Tuesday, April 01, 2008

Open Thread

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Who's going to win, who has a better chance against McCain, or whatever else is on your mind.

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Aunt Jean said...: Aunt Jean said...
Hillary you are a wonderful human being it's a shame that there are people out there that still shows disrespect for you. They talk about the party healing and coming together as a group but still the hate and disrespect seep thru their words that leaves me to believe that being right is more important than anything else. I'm proud to have been able to support you. Your actions even though was out of line at times I know that the most important thing in your heart was the American people may God bless you. Jean

June 04,; June 04, 2008 12:00 PM
golfman8042 said...: That is a nice post, Aunt Jean. I do not share your fond opinion of Hillary, but I appreciate your kind words. Kindness is always good.; June 04, 2008 12:20 PM
JayW said...: Hillay just Cant Understand Normal Thinking.; June 04, 2008 12:20 PM
ed iglehart said...: An eerie recollection of June 4th, 1968

If the link doesn't work, try going here

Congratulations to the BBC for an entrancing series!
xx
ed; June 04, 2008 12:24 PM
Yamaka said...: Dear Democrats:

Greetings from NY City.

What a day yesterday! A New History made by both Sen Obama and Sen Clinton.

Even in the very last day of the Contest, she won SD in the heartland of America with a double digit against the juggernaut of Sen Obama's incredible Campaign Machine.

Now I say with clear conscience that Sen Obama is God's Gift to America (as the Clintons are).

Since the days Barack became the Editor of Harvard Law Review, God Almighty has been smiling on him.

In such a tender age of 46, with his clear thinking and phenomenal eloquence of oratory and poetry he captured the imagination of 18 million Americans in a very short time. Veteran politicians are stunned in utter disbelief at the amazing awesome achievement.

This is indeed a good day for America. Yes, we could work together and change America for the better.

Many of you thought that I was delusional when I said that BHO is the least vetted, least experienced and very risky as a Candidate. Maybe I was, maybe not.

Just read the final sentence of the Editorial of Wall Street Journal today, page A20:

"...Americans have the right to know much more about the gifted man who is the least tested and experienced major party Nominee in modern times".

I hope I was not irrational. I want BHO's supporter to understand my point of view at that time why I wrote so much for so long against Barack. Because I believed in the possibility of breaking open the Glass Ceiling that Macho men created over our women for nearly 50,000 years! As Barack said, Hillary indeed broke the Ceiling (by winning most votes in this fiercely contested Primary).

Rest is water under the bridge.

Now, I believe by recalibrating his MESSAGE, Barack can lead us into the promised land and recapture the Paradise Lost.

I do believe in his talent and audacity of hope.

Let God Continue to Smile on him and on America.

Stay tuned.

BHO's Ardent Supporters:

Please refrain from making cruel jokes and anti-women remarks that would hurt Hillary and millions of women who very passionately believe in her.; June 04, 2008 12:24 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Greywolf I went to the site and read the it. This is what I believe happened. You might not agree with me but here goes. To begin with the SD's should have waited until this evening what is one more day. I think that she thought that they wouldn't show such disrespect for her [sorry but it didn't surprise me] but anyway I don't think she had a speech ready maybe that is a poor excuse but I also believe that she wanted to talk to Obama before it happened. So please give her the benefit of doubt she will back Obama just give her alittle time he will have his moment and soon! Jean; June 04, 2008 12:25 PM
Dave in NC said...: Jaime & JayW,

Another problem with Becker's analysis is that he presumed that the delegate vote would be within 150-200.

Between switches and nearly all remaining delegates endorsing Obama, he will likely win by 400-500 votes at the convention. So it won't really be close.

Also, his delegates will likely rubber stamp his VP selection so an adverse attempt to force Hillary in would come up short.

THAT SAID, it is clear that Obama's VP selection process will contemplate the very issues mentioned in Becker's article and he may conclude that he needs to go with Hillary himself.

Time will tell.; June 04, 2008 12:26 PM
Mug said...: Aunt Jean wrote:

"They talk about the party healing and coming together as a group but still the hate and disrespect seep thru their words"
__________________________________

She still won't acknowledge Obama as the winner. Yes, we want the party to heal and come together but she won't allow it. She is still holding her supporters separate and devided from the rest of the Democratic party. So, are we suppose to like her and respect her for that? The hate and disprespect are not seeping through our words. They are pouring out and she has earned every ounce of that hatred and disrespect.; June 04, 2008 12:26 PM
Mike Ruth said...: Hillary as VP essentially signs Obama's death sentence. When she spoke out about Bobby Kennedy's assasination she TOTALLY disqualified herself as VP material.

Hillary, if she were VP, would obviously have the most to gain by untimely death of President Obama. Conspiracy theories would abound, and Republicans would fan any possible fires and foment discontent between the Pres and VP and amplify their policy disagreements to divide and diminish the Obama presidency.

I hope and pray for Pres. Obama to have 8 peaceful and effective years in office. But that's only going to happen without HRC standing directly behind him.; June 04, 2008 12:27 PM
JayW said...: Yam,

Good to see you took your meds... it is about time.

Do you flip/flop like this often? I mean, thats great that you support Obama now... but you fought such an inspired fight against him. You were willing to say anything, even distortions and lies. Hmmmm... now that I think of it, so was the wench that lost the nomination.

Well anyway, stay on the meds and vote Obama/Biden in 08.; June 04, 2008 12:35 PM
Vicki in Seattle said...: hey, I think it's important for some of us to go through the stages of grieving - it's been a great race, but one person has clearly won. HRC is allowed to think over her options. I bet there's a pile of stuff going on behind the scenes. I doubt that the veep spot is open to here at this time. And BHO is a man I've come to admire for his judgement. He won't announce a veep for many, many weeks, is my bet.; June 04, 2008 12:37 PM
jean said...: Aunt Jean,
I offered congrads for obamas win.
The offensive language just keeps getting louder and louder.
Unify?
It is very dissapointing.
Talk about making your own bed.
Too Bad.
I thought the objective was the GE.
That is clearly not what I am hearing. I just hear divisiveness
for the joy of it.
Fantastic showing of focus.
jean; June 04, 2008 12:45 PM
rkw said...: Harold Ickes: We lost Mondale.
Terry McAuliffe: Well I hope so because if that was an undecided we need to work on our people skills.

Name that movie?; June 04, 2008 12:52 PM
ed iglehart said...: , too, hope the rifts within the party (and the country) can be healed, but I reckon that trying to do so by putting HRC on the ticket as VP would be like trying to heal a running sore by smearing on some cow dung - who knows? It might work, but I'd prefer some penicillin.

;-)
ed; June 04, 2008 12:53 PM
rkw said...: Sounds good Ed, but the "cow dung lobby" (CDL) probably wouldn't like it.; June 04, 2008 12:54 PM
Vicki in Seattle said...: btw, those of us that want to celebrate, probably best we do it privately, and not here. to allow that grieving I just mentioned.

those grieving, please also do not do so publicly - cry into your beer at home, on your own time.

Let's allow this board to become a sounding board for real, actual unity. I'll start:

She ran a fabulously tenacious campaign. She has intelligence. If she were the nominee, I would have voted for her, because I am a Democrat. I was an independent, but now I'm a Dem, and I want a Democrat in the WH next year. Not four more years of the same old same old. And the time for division is over and done with.

We don't have to do kumbaya, but damn, people. Let's suck it up and behave.; June 04, 2008 12:54 PM
Mug said...: jean,

I'll be very happy to offer Senator Clinton my heartfelt congratulations on a hard fought and tenacious campaign just as soon as her campaign is over. According to her own words last night, she is conceding nothing so her campaign goes on. A competetor is only as good as their last game so if she engages in more acts of divisiveness and futility, that's what people will remember. A year ago, I supported her for president but by her narcissistic behavior, she lost my support and a good deal of my respect. How much respect I will keep for her depends on her actions now. The comments about her today are a reflection of the lack of character she displayed last evening, nothing more.

The best way to be respected is by acting in a respectable manner.; June 04, 2008 12:58 PM
JagMan said...: Everyone wake up and smell the HISTORY! I was actually there cause I live here in MN! Republicans and their right wing echo chamber rambling on about Hillary this McCain that. The first major party endorsement of a person of color was finalized last night. Young, smart, compassionate without being weak. His name is Barrack Obama and everything else is just weak! History happened and Fox News did what it always does fiddle while Rome burns. Can he beat McBush? Make me laugh! Its going to be a landslide despite the right wing spin of just about everything. Its not going to matter this time. Republicans live on fear; but what is scarier than the oldest man every becoming President?

Comic92753@aol.com
Jeff G.; June 04, 2008 1:00 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Golfman8042 thank you and I do respect that you have a different opinion.But the words were respectful that is what matters. It's post like these that show such disrespect instead of wanting everyone to come togather as one democratal party.

mug
If Obama can't stop Hillary from becoming the VP, his second option is after he's elected in November, send her on a good will mission to Bosnia.

JayW said...
Hillay just Cant Understand Normal Thinking.

mug

The hate and disprespect are not seeping through our words. They are pouring out and she has earned every ounce of that hatred and disrespect.

mikeruthgis said...
Hillary as VP essentially signs Obama's death sentence. When she spoke out about Bobby Kennedy's assasination she TOTALLY disqualified herself as VP material.

Hillary, if she were VP, would obviously have the most to gain by untimely death of President Obama. Conspiracy theories would abound, and Republicans would fan any possible fires and foment discontent between the Pres and VP and amplify their policy disagreements to divide and diminish the Obama presidency.

It's post like this that I have so much disrespect for why because it's uncalled for.This is what makes Hillary supporters angry and want to do everything possible to keep Obama out of office.So I have a repuest be kind and see what happens.They really don't want a republican in office.but!Jean; June 04, 2008 1:02 PM
JagMan said...: Everyone wake up and smell the HISTORY! I was actually there cause I live here in MN! Republicans and their right wing echo chamber rambling on about Hillary this McCain that. The first major party endorsement of a person of color was finalized last night. Young, smart, compassionate without being weak. His name is Barrack Obama and everything else is just weak! History happened and Fox News did what it always does fiddle while Rome burns. Can he beat McBush? Make me laugh! Its going to be a landslide despite the right wing spin of just about everything. Its not going to matter this time. Republicans live on fear; but what is scarier than the oldest man every becoming President?

Comic92753@aol.com
Jeff G.; June 04, 2008 1:02 PM
Aunt Jean said...: mug she doesn't have narcissistic behavior that is in te eyes of beholders of hate. Jean; June 04, 2008 1:05 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Mug she is acting in a respectful manner only in the eyes of Hillary haters is she not. Give her a day or two until she has a chance to talk to Obama then you will get your wish.What is a day or two have you not waited for months? Jean; June 04, 2008 1:09 PM
Martin said...: Oh no, can't say anything bad about Hillary! That's "disrespect"! Can't point out any of the narcissistic, divisive, dishonest, evil things she's done!

I'll respect her when she respects Obama. Her speech last night was an insult and an embarassment. Watching her up there, letting her mindless drones chant "Denver! Denver!" with a grin on her face, basking in the glory of being Hillary Clinton... that made me sick to my stomach.

Letting her on the ticket would be a big mistake. I'd still vote for Obama, but I'd be a lot less happy about it. Give her a cabinet position or something.; June 04, 2008 1:16 PM
Naiomi said...: Jean, Aunt Jean...I am an Obama supporter and I don't hate Hillary. I may be a little bruised still by some of her rhetoric but I hope to see her with a position that she can do great work for the american public. I don't know if the vice presidency is the best place for her to really shine and I wonder if the senate might actually be a great place for her, no slight intended to Senator Clinton. She could wield a lot of power there. These things are not my decision to make, however. I think Obama and Clinton will get together soon and thoughtfully discuss the future.

Try not to be offended by some of the more exuberant Obama supporters try to keep focused on how gracious Obama is being towards Clinton.

We all have the same goal and I think you Aunt Jean, Jean, Yamaka, have shown thoughtfulness (is that even a word?) in your comments today.

We have a long battle ahead and should not become complacent.; June 04, 2008 1:18 PM
Aunt Jean said...: martin you are the type of person that give democrats BAD and a disrepectful name. Shame on you and your hate. Jean; June 04, 2008 1:18 PM
Naiomi said...: Uncle John,

Yey to prop 98 defeated!; June 04, 2008 1:20 PM
Aunt Jean said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 04, 2008 1:25 PM
jean said...: You go Aunt Jean.
Mug,
No matter what HRC is going to be a big player with what has to be done.
She has shown respect but she is clearly saying she will not roll over and play dead.
Has it occured to you that perhaps the Reps may be intimadated by this?
Obama won the nomination but she will also make sure the country gets what is needed.
She will not be VP.
She will make sure that things get done.
It will be two against McCain.
What more do you want?
I know it is not what it is supposed to be in your mind.
The Reps are being surrounded.
If he backs his rhetoric we have a chance.
This is called a common goal and neither of them is stupid.
Your lack of tolerance will not do well for you.
jean; June 04, 2008 1:27 PM
Aunt Jean said...: naiomi thank you for your kind words.Even though it's not up to me as to what she wants or what Obama is willing to give her I guess we will just have to wait and see.But I do disagree with you about some of the posts not all just some. There are some that is totally uncalled for and the hate is coming thru. Jean; June 04, 2008 1:27 PM
countjellybean said...: Bill most definitely has a narcissistic personality disorder. I'm not so sure about Hillary.

I remember that Dick Morris said this about the Clintons: Hillary loves Bill. And Bill loves Bill. So they have that in common.; June 04, 2008 1:28 PM
jean said...: Aunt Jean
naiomi is a class act.
I understand your passion and you are so correct on the mean bodied post.
jean; June 04, 2008 1:33 PM
Dave in NC said...: Yam, you have gone from acting crazy to getting my vote for a cabinet position in just a few short posts. I knew you had it in you!

Aunt Jean, I see you have posted your photo. You are a fine looking lady as I knew you would be. I am sure your faith in Hillary will be rewarded because I am sure her next battles will be successful.

This is only the second election the Clintons have lost in 30 years. Not a bad record.

It is a distinct privilege to be a part of this community.

I appreciate the thoughtful debates as well as the firey combat and many here have excelled at both.

It is this group, rather than any candidate, that I would most like to share a beer with!

God Bless US All!; June 04, 2008 1:37 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Jean I just truely believe that it is time to come together as the strong democrat party that I know we are. Jean; June 04, 2008 1:38 PM
Meg said...: When do you people SLEEP??? I get home from work and it takes me an hour just to read through the mountain of posts.

A Hillary supporter at work congratulated me this morning, which was funny considering that I hadn't done anything. Then she looked sadly at me and said "Don't you think she would be a great VP?" Weird. I just kind of looked at her and said, "No, I don't think so."

I see you all have been chatting nicely with Yam and Aunt Jean. I think this is a place to openly say what you think and I don't think we should have to hide our feelings about either HRC or BHO. However, there is a huge difference between criticizing someone's opinion and calling a person nasty things for having that opinion.

Enough said. It's a great day. No fear about the Credentials Committee and the SD's keep rolling in!!

What's Donna Brazile waiting for?; June 04, 2008 1:43 PM
Matt said...: I've been pretty on the fence this entire season with my only real horse in the race a desire to see this wrapped up so we can move on to the general. I have to say, I think that Hillary had been great up through last night but I found her speech to be almost offensive. I spent the entire speech wondering if they were just replaying a speech from a month earlier, something historic happened last night and she refused to offer so much as the smallest acknowledgement of that fact choosing instead to fan the flames of party division in amost every way possible. It reminded me of the black knight in that famous Monty Python scene. Obama was incredibly gracious in his speech last night and Hillary couldn't find the basic goodness to do the same, the idea that she just didn't have a speech prepared is not excuse. She lost last night, that is a fact and as such we should be celebrating Obama's historic victory, all of this talk from Hillary supporters that last night should really have been about her or that they need time before they can move on is rediculous. When you lose and election you concede and you give a gracious speech, no one would ever suggest that it would have been appropriate for Bob Dole or John Kerry to wait a week before conceding in 1996 or 2004 and no one would sugest that it would have been appropriate for them to give speeches in which they demanded things backed by a threat that they would take their supporters and go elsewhere. The same logic is true here. It is always important to move on quickly from the divisions of an election so that the winner can begin to do good and last night Hillary showed that she's more interested in her own ego then in the ability of the Democratic party to win the Whitehouse, this was completely unacceptable and should completely disqualify her from consideration for the the VP nomination.; June 04, 2008 1:43 PM
jean said...: Aunt Jean
I agree.
But,if someone keeps getting kicked after they have tried to show they want unity, it makes it very difficult.
jean; June 04, 2008 1:43 PM
Mug said...: Aunt Jean,

I'm not a Hillary hater. Really, I'm not. I watched her speech last night hoping and praying that she would show just a smidge of grace. It started with Mcauliffe, knowing that Obama had clinched the nomination, announcing Hillary as "the next president of the United States." Is that acting in a respectful manner? Then I heard Hillary congratulating Obama on his hard fought campaign. She proclaimed every accomplishment he achieved during the primaries, except winning it. This is the kind of speech the winner gives to console the loser. Then she told the crowd how, despite being told 5 months ago that she'd lost, they had brought her back. (once again in complete denial of losing the nomination) Never did she acknowledge Obama as the winner nor did she even keep her word that she would acknowledge that he had enough delegates to secure the nomination. The way she carried on was scary to watch. I was genuinely concerned for her mental health. If you missed my earlier post about the symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, go back and read it.

I'll give it a couple of days... maybe more. However, don't assume that my negative feelings are arbitrary in any way. I didn't start out feeling the way I do now. If I have little faith that Hillary will do the right thing, it is because she has had the opportunity to do the right thing many times and each time she has opted to serve her own intrests instead. We'll see.; June 04, 2008 1:47 PM
JayW said...: Mug is right...

Clinton is totally a narcissistic wench.; June 04, 2008 1:47 PM
apissedant said...: uncle john,
Great comments, keep posting!; June 04, 2008 1:49 PM
RobH said...: I would not be surprised if Sen. Obama has something up his sleeve for Sen. Clinton, something completely unexpected that will stun us all with it's grace and intelligence. Something that we all - posters and pundits - haven't thought of yet.

I don't know what it will be. Not the ordinary things we're all bandying about not VP, not SC, not HHS.

I will not be surprised, because I have learned that he ALWAYS gets it right. When made public, we will all say "yes, that's perfect, and appropriate, and better than we thought."

The idea of "holding back your army", and "dictating terms", and bullying your way into position IS Nixonian, and Hillary MAY be trying to go there, but Sen. Obama won't. It's a new day, and I wouldn't be surprised if Hillary goes in there pumped up for a confrontation, and comes out satisfied, in a completely unpredicted way.

We'll see.; June 04, 2008 1:50 PM
RobH said...: PS,

My last word verify was wmdlol,
and this on is wmdkma.

Think they're trying to tell me something?; June 04, 2008 1:55 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Matt the problem that I see about last night is that the SD's not the primarys and caucuses put him over the top they should have waited out of respect for Hillary. Yes maybe she should have conceded but the SD's are more at fault even if you disagree with me. Hillary did show him respect in her speech. But it's people like you that keep the fault finding going in your post.

Ask yourself two questions: Could or wouldn't it have been better if the
SD's would have waited a day or two more? Would it have caused harm if they would have waited that day or two? Jean; June 04, 2008 1:56 PM
Aunt Jean said...: Robh you might be completely right! Jean; June 04, 2008 1:58 PM
Yamaka said...: mug:

Perhaps you know me well through my many posting here.

I believe that Hillary is a good person, an excellent woman, a devout Democrat and a worthy Candidate.

She gained the nod of nearly 18 million Americans in the last 5 months. Awesome.

Believe me, she will do what's right for the Party and the country that she loves the most.

Give her the time and space.

She is indeed the King Maker.

What she needs right now is respect and understanding.

If Barack shows her the respect that she very richly earned, she will reciprocate in kind.

If he wants to go on his own in this arduous journey, that's his prerogative and right.

He earned the Nomination, and now he has to look forward as to how to bring 18 million of her supporters home, and another at least 30 million more Americans to his side by the Fall to win the WH.

Let us wait and see what happens.

In deed, we live in interesting time.

Cheers.; June 04, 2008 1:59 PM
Dave in NC said...: matt,

I don't fault Clinton for not conceding last night. She went out on a win, she should be indulged a little.

'96 was Dole's swan song, he had nothing better to do but just say goodbye.

'04 Kerry conceded but implied that he was still leaving open the option to take legal action or seek a recount in Ohio. Actually, the same things were being said about him that are being said about Clinton now.

When Clinton concedes, the lights will go out for her for a while. She still has a very big roll to play and probably does need to make a few arrangements before bowing out.; June 04, 2008 2:02 PM
Joshua said...: Mike in Maryland:

I understand and sympathize with your particular medical situation. However, I am making a larger point. A medical service that is rare and hard to find is that way for a very good reason. Here’s an analogy for you: look in every block in any city and you will find house after house. If you don’t like the house in which you live, you can find another just down the block. If, however, you want a castle; those are few and hard to find. And when you find one, it will cost you an arm and a leg.

If you have to pay from your pocket for the medical care you want, there is a good chance that you can moderate your appetite. It is irrational to expect to get a service that only very few can deliver and expect your neighbors to pay for it. You want that service, pay for it yourself.

We have to understand the concept of market economy: there is no free lunch.

That is the problem with democrats: unreasonable idealists who think that society must cater to them without limit. I prefer pragmatists who understand the concept of rationing. If you pay for it, you control how much you get yourself. If you can’t afford it, you don’t get it. That’s life.; June 04, 2008 2:02 PM
jpsedona said...: I think that Obama should offer Hillary the Ambassadorship of the UN. With her obvious ability to unify people, negotiate and tone down rhetoric, she'd be a natural choice.

After all, she brought peace to Ireland and rid snipers from Bosnia, so delivering world peace should be no problem for someone with her long track record.; June 04, 2008 2:03 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Karen Anne said...
Mike in Maryland,

Is your eye condition Fuch's Endo . . . They are not "down the street," but you shouldn't have to be hopping across states to find one.

Karen Anne,

Yes it is Fuchs' Dystrophy. I'm fortunate to have Johns Hopkins in my back yard (so to speak), where the endothelial keratoplasty (EK) is being performed. But many people don't have access to a surgeon who is performing the EK procedures unless they travel a hundred or more miles. And some travel thousands of miles to make sure they get the best treatment.

By the way, there are several more than "the big three" - Dr. Terry in Portland, Dr. Price in Indianapolis, Dr. Gorovoy in Fort Myers, Dr. Kozarshy in Atlanta, and Dr. Goosey in Houston, come immediately to mind. And then there is, of course, Dr. Melles in Rotterdam, The Netherlands, who is in the process of developing the latest procedure, the DMEK, which Dr. Price is also beginning to perform now.

Even so, you can see that these doctors are not 'just down the street' from each other.

Yes, I know there is the full penetrating kerotoplasty (PK), but if you talk to any qualified ophthalmologist, they will tell you that the use of a full PK for a Fuchs' Dystrophy patient is not the preferred surgery now, and should only be considered if there are other, complicating, conditions that would prohibit an EK.

Mike; June 04, 2008 2:04 PM
Yamaka said...: matt:

You are very thoughtful.

But I just disagree.

She will make the right speech, just give her some time and space.

She and Barack will be in one podium hugging and dancing!

A little patience will help to heal all the wounds.

Cheers.; June 04, 2008 2:04 PM
Dave in NC said...: BTW,

I listened to all 3 candidates speak last night and I found them all boring.

Even the media were commenting on McCain's speech being just awful.

Obama could inspire me by reading the telephone book, but, other than that, his speech was forgettable.

I think Clinton needed to let her supporters decompress slowly given the historic intensity of this campaign.

Although she didn't say anything inspiring, I actually think she did the best job of the 3.; June 04, 2008 2:04 PM
Naiomi said...: Mike, As a Dr how do you feel about the influence of drug companies through their advertisement to the public and their lobbying (for lack of a better word coming to mind) of doctors?

Personally it astounds me how medicated we are as a country. As a professional how do you feel the medical community should go on this subject?; June 04, 2008 2:07 PM
Aunt Jean said...: dave in NC
thank you for the compliment I eat right and believe in taking care of my self. Do you know if I could have one wish do you know what it would be. [of course besides my family rolling in money] lol. All joking aside that we could get a president in there that was really for the American people and that would do [or at least try his/her best] to get everything done that they promised and really work for the good of the American people. If Obama is the person for that so be it. Jean; June 04, 2008 2:11 PM
apissedant said...: jayw,
Play nice, Yam is. Show some class. ;); June 04, 2008 2:12 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Hi naiomi, I remember when Prescription drugs and Lawyers couldn't advertise on TV. Both of those add to the over all costs. Why have Drugs advertised that a Doctor has to diagnose a problem and prescribe. Put the power back to the Doctors!; June 04, 2008 2:13 PM
apissedant said...: mug, my favorite part was her saying that South Dakota got the last word, prior to the Montana polls closing. Apparently only every vote that is for Hillary Clinton counts.

Either that or the part where she ripped of George W. and said, "stay the course." WOW!; June 04, 2008 2:14 PM
jpsedona said...: Mike,

You are probably aware of HIPAA. One of it's provisions is insurance portability. If you go from a group policy, then go through all of the cobra periods, you cannot be denied coverage.

WHAT THEY DON'T TELL YOU is how expensive the coverage is. Compare that my family was paying $1000 per month. If we went the portability option, it was almost $3000 per month!

So, having access to healthcare is meaningless if it's completely unaffordable.; June 04, 2008 2:16 PM
Dave in NC said...: Aunt Jean,

Hopefully, if we can get a democrat in the WH and hang on to Congress, your family WILL have some money to roll in.

That is my hope for all hard working people!; June 04, 2008 2:17 PM
Dave in NC said...: Yamaka,

I agree with you completely.; June 04, 2008 2:20 PM
apissedant said...: aunt jean,
I have been as respectful to you as you have been to me. In the last few days I have several nice things to you, and not one mean thing.

I would like to point out, that it is not some random Clinton hating. I am trying to watch my temper and keep my mouth shut, but last night was atrocious. She added another heap of crap onto a bunch of other crap. When Bill said South Carolina didn't count because it had too many black people... I kept my mouth shut. When Hillary said Obama was not qualified to be the president, but McCain was, I kept my mouth shut. She kept going, and going, and going. Personally insulting a man I look up to and admire quite a bit. Those words cannot be taken back. Please, tell me, what did Obama personally say about Clinton?
Yes, many of us have said some terrible things, but Obama played nice and kept his mouth shut. She did not, and we did not. He was the only one that acted like an adult of all of us. That shows so much character and wisdom that is desperately lacking in the White House.

That's all.; June 04, 2008 2:21 PM
Aunt Jean said...: dave in nc

that goes to say lol.You have a nice day I've got to go bushhog the back of my mothers property [not looking forward to it but there is nobody else to do it that isn't working today or knows how to run it. Jean; June 04, 2008 2:21 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: On Clinton's campaign and Speach last night....

First, Congrats to her and her supporters for a good fight. I personnaly could never support her, but your dedication is to be admired.

The Clinton handlers have been keeping her in a bubble lately. I'm sure she knew it was close, but the 2 stories below ground vault that she was speaking from could not recieve any cell phone calls, so she might not have known that the delegate count had been reached. I will give her the benefit of the doubt on that one.

I would also like to thank Yam, Jean, and Aunt Jean for their input today. You have been respectful and gracious. Hopefully others can follow the lead on both sides.

Well, lunch is over, back to work. ;o); June 04, 2008 2:23 PM
apissedant said...: matt,
I agree; June 04, 2008 2:24 PM
Hippolytus said...: Aunt Jean,
Please read Yamaka's 12:24 pm post, if you haven't already. He set a land speed record getting through the five stages of grief. I hope you can follow his example. Please work on cleaning up your side of the street, and we'll work on cleaning up ours.
____
JayW,
I echo apissedant's post. Time to lay off the Yammer. He's a class act.; June 04, 2008 2:27 PM
Aunt Jean said...: apissedant

I wasn't talking about you today. I will get back to you ok. I've got to go bush hog my mothers property for now. Jean; June 04, 2008 2:27 PM
apissedant said...: mike,
Why do medical doctors make twice as much as most other doctorate receivers? Most of their education takes longer than medical school, and of course costs just as much if not more. The people holding these jobs are just as smart, and often smarter. Why is a Chemist paid half what a doctor is? Why don't judges, police officers, and fire departments charge us for each visit? You have this crazy idea that the free economy is used for everything, and that it works great. Have you read about what happened before firefighters were provided by the government? It didn't go well.

A six year old does not make money, and refusing it a life saving operation because it can't pay is not, "just life," it is disgusting. I am tired of doctors whining about how little their pay is, about how long their school was, and about how smart and great they are.

GET OVER IT! My sister makes 60k a year as a Veterinarian. People that failed out of Vet school dropped out and became doctors. Now they make twice as much. The average doctor makes 150k a year. That is over 3X what the average worker makes. They are not broke, they are not mistreated, they are just fine. My uncle ran a very wealthy school district. He was top dog, and he had a doctorate from a very good school. He made less than what the AVERAGE doctor makes.

I feel no sympathy for doctors. I go to school with plenty of prospective doctors, and I hear them talk about how much money they are going to make on a regular basis. It is not some sacrifice for the benefit of society, it is a job, where YOU GET PAID VERY WELL FOR YOUR EFFORTS.; June 04, 2008 2:31 PM
apissedant said...: aunt jean,
I know you weren't talking to me. My point was to describe the serious frustration that many Obama supporters are going through. They cannot believe that another Democrat, a Clinton no less, would say such terrible things about such a great man, and hurt their own party.; June 04, 2008 2:33 PM
JayW said...: hippolytus,

Nah... I actually have no respect for Yam. Ironically, I do for Aunt Jean.

You see, Yam talked so much smack about HRC being the greatest and all that how could he possibly do a complete 180 if his feeling were genuine to begin with? Did everything change in the last 24 hours?

At least Aunt Jean is still sticking by what she believes in... even though I feel the opposite of her, I actaully respect her for still believing in what she originally said.; June 04, 2008 2:36 PM
apissedant said...: emit,
Several years ago I researched Bristol-Meyers and the drug taxol. The story of taxol is quite phenomenal, and I suggest you Google it. In any case, while doing the research, I found that their advertising budget has now grown larger than their R&D budget. How amazing is that? They now spend more money trying to sell their drugs than they do trying to find new drugs.; June 04, 2008 2:36 PM
apissedant said...: Mike in Md,
Stop saying things I agree with.

The idea of competition in hospital care is ridiculous. When I have a gushing head wound, I won't be able to ask the ambulance driver who charges more. Price comparison only works on preventative care like prenatal care, not on any sort of after the fact care. After the fact, you want to survive and be healthy again, not haggle over price.; June 04, 2008 2:38 PM
Yamaka said...: jay w:

I watch lots of kick boxing. Extremely violent blood sport.

Politics is in a way a blood sport.

Professional players go for each others throat all the time.

But when the game is over, they all hug and kiss with love and admiration.

That's I call as Professionalism.

You have the right to be angry with me, whether I deserve it or not.

I am very respectful of ALL of you. You are ALL honorable people, IMO.

Cheers.; June 04, 2008 2:43 PM
PastorGene said...: Hillary Clinton still claims that she won the "popular vote." Of course, it is the delegate count that is the decisive factor. However, her persistent claims are being used by her supporters to de-legitimize Obama's nomination.

Of course, the popular vote issue is not only distorted by not having a legitimate campaign in MI or FL and by the question of how to count caucus votes but also by Obama's name not being on the ballot in MI.

Real Clear Politics has a number of estimates of popular vote scenarios at http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html. Counting caucus states but not MI, Obama leads by 134,808.

Since Obama's name was not on the ballot in MI, the only realistic and fair way to include a popular vote from MI would be by using the exit polls from the MI primary which asked for how people would have voted with all names on the ballot. That can be found at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21225987.

Using the exit polls, in which Clinton polled at 46% to Obama's 35%, that would give Clinton a vote of 273,165 to Obama's 207,843, which would leave Obama with a national popular vote lead of 69,486.

Clinton supporters would never agree to the legitimacy of that way of calculating the vote, but it is certainly more legitimate than including Clinton's MI vote with no vote for Obama just because he complied with DNC request by removing his name from the ballot, as did other candidates. The only other fair way would be to not include the MI vote at all. Either way, Obama leads in the popular vote, rather than Clinton, which corresponds to and legitimizes his lead in pledged delegates and total delegates.

So it's time for the spin to stop. The nomination process is over, and Obama is the nominee. It was very close--perhaps the closest primary contest ever. But in the end, someone has to win and someone has to lose.

Also, there is no provision in the Party rules stating that the runner-up gets to be the VP nominee. The Presidential nominee gets to make the decision about a running mate.

I do not agree with the 2-dimensional thinking that adding the two candidates together on the ticket translates into adding votes, states, and constituencies together. In Ohio, PA, IN, WV, and KY, for example, Hillary basically won the typically Republican demographics, while Obama won the typically Democratic demographics. Since the Republican race was already decided, many Republicans crossed over or even re-registered as Democrats and voted for her, as part of Rush Limbaugh's "Operation Chaos." They would not vote for her as Pres. or VP in Nov. Most of those who are true Democrats would vote for Obama over McCain in Nov., with or without her. And she might actually cost Obama some independent voters and help mobilize more Republican voters to come out for McCain. Plus, in the end, Obama needs someone who can bring some true national security credentials and perhaps a state.; June 04, 2008 2:44 PM
apissedant said...: jay,
I am ok with people changing their mind. Here in VA, we had an AG candidate who lost, but at least retained his state Senate seat. He lost by 200 votes. Anyways, I knew of him because I had volunteered on his campaign, and I happened to run into after a few drinks at a fund raiser.
I was more open than I normally would have been, and I said hello and shook his hand with a cocky grin on my face. I informed him I was still waiting on a response to an email I had sent several weeks prior, and he asked what it was about. I told him it was about his vote on the gay marriage amendment, and we argued back and forth for about 15 minutes.
The food showed up, and we went our separate ways, but he made a point to find me afterwards. He explained to me that he had said he was going to vote for it, that he had voted for it the previous year, and that he was remaining consistent.
I replied back that George Bush is consistent, but he is consistently wrong. I have no problem with someone changing their mind when they realize they were wrong, but I have a huge problem with remaining incorrect for the sole purpose of consistency. I would rather have my leaders be correct than consistent.
About a month later he did publicly apologize for his vote and say it was the wrong thing. I know several other people that emailed him over the issue, and eventually he rethought his choice of values.; June 04, 2008 2:46 PM
Keryl said...: Mmm. I have to revise my Hillary speech...here goes:

Sometime at the end of the week:

My fellow Americans and valued supporters, much has been made over when I will concede, what I want and why I won't just give up.

I have been accused of dividing our party, of making the road for the democrats steeper for the November battle for the presidency.

My intentions are quite the opposite.

I have, through all of this, been the champion of the values and policies that my supporters hold dear, and I cannot and will not give up on them. I am profoundly grateful for their support and faith in my candidacy (specific thanks to individuals and family here).

Millions of my supporters have communicated their thoughts to me, online and some in person about where to go from here. They have asked me to fight. But they aren't asking me to fight for me, they are asking me to fight for them. To fight for an end to poverty, and end to the war in Iraq. To fight for tax relief for the middle class, for a healthy economy and a healthy planet. And so my decision today is clear and unwavering.

I wholeheartedly endorse Senator BO for POTUS, not in spite of my supporters, but because of them.

My support has no strings attached, I join the effort to elect Senator Obama president BECAUSE he supports the values and policies that we as democrats hold dear.

Now, lately John McCain has been talking like my best friend. I respect his service to this country as a war veteran, and as a senator. But don't be fooled, he is no friend to the policies we must embrace to restore America to her rightful place in the world. The policies that working, yes, harding working, Americans need in order to have a better future for themselves and their children. (Details here on bad McCain policy).

It is time for us to unite as democrats, for some it will be hard, but I know my supporters, and they are patriotic Americans, who won't let our current disappointment stand in the way of what is right for America. You stood with me so far, and tonight I ask you to stand with me again in support of Senator Obama.

Thank You and God Bless America.; June 04, 2008 2:48 PM
apissedant said...: keryl,
Send the speech, it is way better than any speech she has given in the last six months. I remember when I liked and respected her. When I thought how great it would be when another Clinton took the White House. That was a very long time ago (2001). My how the times have changed.; June 04, 2008 2:51 PM
Uncle John said...: naiomi:

Yes, 98 defeated. Good news. These things are important; I remember the damage that Proposition 13 has done and continues to do.

yousri:

I forgot to include you in thanking the DCW staff for a job superbly done.

All: A role for Sen. Hillary Clinton.

Sen. Obama said last night that when we get universal health care, she will have played a major role in getting it. Was he perhaps offering a cabinet post?

HRC as supreme court justice: I don't much like the idea. A judge in a non-jury case has to be able to look at both sides of the case, and render impartial judgment. This is different from the role of a lawyer, who is an advocate for her/his client's interest. Latin: advocatus, "called to stand with"; Greek paracletos, same meaning, "paraclete" with the added idea of consolation with the support. Italian: avvocato, Spanish abogado.

HRC is perhaps the best advocate for universal health care we have.

Another role like an advocate, rather than judge, would be ambassador.; June 04, 2008 2:51 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: apissedant said...
Mike in Md,
Stop saying things I agree with.

Ummm, NO! VBG

If I write my thoughts, and you then agree with what I write, then it's your 'problem' if you agree with them. LOL

And a couple of corrections to my earlier message:

Add Dr. Hwang in San Francisco to the list of superior doctors.

And I misspelled Dr. Kozarsky's name.

Mike; June 04, 2008 2:52 PM
Joshua said...: Naiomi,

Drug advertising, IMO, is a double-edged sword. It is good to get the information out to the public. The informed consumer is a good consumer. On the other hand, the way they market those drugs increases the hypochondriacs in the society. Even as a physician, when I see that famous “restless leg” drug commercial I wonder if my leg is itching – LOL.

On the whole, I am opposed to the marketing of prescription pharmaceuticals to the general public. Prescription drugs are that way because the physician should weigh all information before handing out a drug. It is terrible for patients to come into the office with a particular drug in mind. They do not have all the information and knowledge necessary to know which drug is best for them.; June 04, 2008 2:57 PM
Joshua said...: Jpsedona

I hear you and I agree with you. I have experienced that myself. Personally, I have dropped health insurance coverage. I prefer to be self-insured. It is a risk I take. But I am living what I preach. I pay for my care out of my pocket. Luckily there is no significant illness in my family.; June 04, 2008 3:01 PM
Beryl said...: "If Barack shows her the respect that she very richly earned, she will reciprocate in kind."

I doubt this. Obama has been nothing but gracious and respectful to HRC. Even last night, Barack praised her:

"At this defining moment for our nation, we should be proud that our party put forth one of the most talented, qualified field of individuals ever to run for this office. I have not just competed with them as rivals, I have learned from them as friends, as public servants, and as patriots who love America and are willing to work tirelessly to make this country better. They are leaders of this party, and leaders that America will turn to for years to come.

That is particularly true for the candidate who has traveled further on this journey than anyone else. Senator Hillary Clinton has made history in this campaign not just because she’s a woman who has done what no woman has done before, but because she’s a leader who inspires millions of Americans with her strength, her courage, and her commitment to the causes that brought us here tonight.

We’ve certainly had our differences over the last sixteen months. But as someone who’s shared a stage with her many times, I can tell you that what gets Hillary Clinton up in the morning — even in the face of tough odds — is exactly what sent her and Bill Clinton to sign up for their first campaign in Texas all those years ago; what sent her to work at the Children’s Defense Fund and made her fight for health care as first lady; what led her to the United States Senate and fueled her barrier-breaking campaign for the presidency — an unyielding desire to improve the lives of ordinary Americans, no matter how difficult the fight may be. And you can rest assured that when we finally win the battle for universal health care in this country, she will be central to that victory. When we transform our energy policy and lift our children out of poverty, it will be because she worked to help make it happen. Our party and our country are better off because of her, and I am a better candidate for having had the honor to compete with Hillary Rodham Clinton."

I challenge ANYONE to provide a recent equivalent statement made by HRC besides the comment she made about being honored to be on the stage with him. She has praised McCain more often than she has praised Obama.

There is nothing else HRC is entitled to receive. It is high time for HRC to reciprocate and show that she can be gracious.

As mentioned before, I am a former HRC supporter and once viewed her as a role model. However, almost everything she has done in this campaign has hurt my heart. I finally had to resign to the fact that HRC will never be what I thought she was. (As silly as it may sound to some people, I am actually tearing up while keying this comment.); June 04, 2008 3:07 PM
Joshua said...: Apissedant

I hear and respect your opinion. You are not alone in despising doctors. I just have to remind you that this is a capitalist system. People get paid what they deserve. If you think that doctors are overpaid, why don’t you become a doctor yourself and earn all that free money?

If you think that teachers are underpaid, why do you choose to become a teacher?

In a free market, the market determines the price. You want socialism. Move to Cuba or USSR (Russia does not have communism any more. Even they discovered that it was an idiotic system).; June 04, 2008 3:07 PM
apissedant said...: mike,
Have you dropped home owner's insurance, life insurance, and your auto insurance down to the lowest level legally allowed? All insurance is doing the same thing.; June 04, 2008 3:11 PM
jpsedona said...: In a discussion earlier today, I was discussing Obama picking Hillary as a VP candidate.

My analogy, to Obama picking Hillary was similar to his wearing a thing... he could do it, but it would be really uncomfortable...; June 04, 2008 3:11 PM
Pablo said...: I think I've been pretty respectful my time here with Clinton supporters, but I agree with Matt. She blew it.

This was a historic night, for both of them. The fact that Obama was far more magnanimous towards Clinton in his speech says alot. They both fought a very tough campaign, both shattered glass ceilings in their own right, but it's over.

I like Hillary overall still. I supported her campaign in the beginning. But after her speech last night, I was disappointed yet again and reminded why I jumped ship. She had a chance to start bringing the party together right then, and she bailed. Instead it was solely on what she had done and accomplished.

What's the difference in waiting a few days? Well, other than the fact all three of the remaining candidates were on t.v. with huge audiences watching, and with McCain pandering to the Clinton supporters who still understandably have hurt feelings. Or just the fact she could have shown a little bit of class.

I've no doubt still try and unite everyone, but she missed a big opportunity last night to show a small gesture, of just acknowledging what took place, and begin.; June 04, 2008 3:13 PM
Yamaka said...: "Luckily there is no significant illness in my family."

mike:

I am in the Medical Profession.

I urge you to take high deductible "catastrophic health coverage" from a major health insurance company.

My concern is when some accident happens at home or on the road you will quickly get into a situation that you cannot afford to pay from your pocket.

Literally you will be bankrupt in a few minutes.

Do you really want to be uninsured? Medical treatment is quite expensive in most of the industrialized world.

On the question of affordability of healthcare:

1. How much is really affordable?

From the experience of other industrialized democracies, as much as 10% of the GDP is needed to give quality healthcare to the citizens.

This amounts to $4333 per person per year.

Is this really affordable to most people?

If not, who is going to pick up the bill?

Cheers.; June 04, 2008 3:15 PM
Naiomi said...: Mike, I agree that the public should be well informed. My father had congenital emphysema (Alpha 1 antitryspin deficiency) which he self diagnosed through research. He was originally diagnosed as strictly emphysema. He also researched possible treatments so he would be informed when talking to his doctor.

I think the problem is advertisement isn't meant to be a public service, it is meant to sell drugs. Watching a TV ad isn't research.; June 04, 2008 3:16 PM
apissedant said...: We don't have a free market. Our government pays a ridiculous amount into the medical system. Check the numbers. We have an assisted market with semi-government control. We are technically a socialist state right now.

I choose to be a Chemist and a teacher because I enjoy Chemistry and teaching, and I think I can make a difference. I can live off the wages paid, and can comfortably raise my family. I am not so greedy as to do everything for a paycheck. I have problems with people from the "high class" portion of our society showing absolutely no class, and whining about their little paychecks.; June 04, 2008 3:18 PM
UUbuntu said...: Beryl - That's another excellent comment. I understand exactly how you feel. Thank you.

To everyone here. I appreciate the overall change of tone in many of your posts. While I no longer post here (I post at Richard's Democratic Elections Forum), I do continue reading your contributions. Thank you all.; June 04, 2008 3:21 PM
Emit R Detsaw said...: Gee, my insurance rates for me and my wife are under $1,000. Not that we ever go to the doctor, but it's there if we need it. Too bad everyone doesn't qualify for my premiums. All you have to do is spend 20 years in the Military or a term as a Senator/President.

Those of us Retired (and some Active Duty) call it Try To Get Care (program name is TRICARE), but at least it is something that we can go to the doctor when needed. I could go to the VA for a lot of Free stuff, but have avoided those options.

Where I work since leaving the military the same insurance I have costs my co-workers 3-4 times as much. There needs to be a way to make premiums equal for the same coverage.; June 04, 2008 3:22 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: michael said:

"...We heard three speeches tonight. John McCain's speech was about Barack Obama, Hillary Clintons speech was about Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama's speech was about America."
____

Very well said.; June 04, 2008 3:24 PM
Joshua said...: Apissedant,

The answer is yes, yes and yes. I only carry insurance that is mandated by law or the mortgage company if I must have a mortgage. I never opt into any insurance. When I buy an electronic gear the store is always eager to sell me insurance in case it breaks. I always decline.

Insurance is a scam.

You heard me right. It shifts resources from the provider of the service into the pocket of the insurance company CEO. If you remove the middleman and pay for what you consume, the cost is always less.

If you pay through insurance, you will still have to pay enough for the service provider, plus you must now also pay for the profit of the insurance company.

Peace.; June 04, 2008 3:28 PM
Joshua said...: Apissedant,

I dropped life insurance when I realized that it was a scam. It also helps that I have saved up enough money to pass to my kids. I most certainly do not need life insurance. It is an idiotic idea especially if you can save money yourself.; June 04, 2008 3:31 PM
apissedant said...: Government has a major hand in many markets in the US. We are not purely market driven, we are not the capitalist nation that so many try to portray us as. What's more, all of those European nations are not the dirty socialists we portray them to be. The Netherlands has health insurance just like we do. The difference is stark, however, in that the government strictly monitors and helps control costs, as Hillary proposed, all are forced to have insurance by a company of their choice, and lastly, the government contributes varying amounts towards the cost of insurance based on income and ability to pay.
The result is overall lower costs, individually lower costs, and a much higher rated health care system than we have in America. My wife has never once waited as long for medical treatment as she has here in America. She was disgusted by the time she HOURS she spent waiting, the lack of personal attention from the doctor, and then... to rap it all up nicely... the astronomical price.

They control demand quite simply. There is no copay or anything for office visits or medicine. However, if a citizen is healthy for a year, and does not require medical service, they get a partial refund of what they paid into the system. They also still retain the ability to shop around and switch doctors, though most choose not to.; June 04, 2008 3:32 PM
Yamaka said...: apiss:

As I said, I am in the Medical Profession.

Many doctors hate to practice medicine in US. They have lots of problems, mostly bureaucratic issues dealing with the Insurance Co and reimbursements.

Even though Medicine is technically private, the reimbursement rates are set mostly by the Govt via Medicare.

In fact many doctors feel that if Medicare can bypass the Insurance Co and pay them directly things will be little cheaper, because the "middle man" is not in the picture.

But how to implement this?

We spend 14% of GDP per year for healthcare, while most other countries' National Care spend 7-10% of GDP (here there is some rationing enforced by the State).

Taking the 10% GDP reasonable, I said the cost is $4330 per person per year.

Can you afford to pay this amount?

If not, who is going to pay the bill?

What's your solution?; June 04, 2008 3:34 PM
apissedant said...: mike,
Insurance is a for profit business, just as any other business. I minimize my insurance coverage for the same reason. The difference is, at the moment I am still just beginning my career, and I realize I cannot afford major surgery, or to replace my home if something occurs. Insurance spreads the risk over more people, so everyone pays a little more than it would actually cost, but no one is struck with such a large bill that they could not afford it.

The number one cause for bankruptcy in America is health care costs. This is a disturbing reality that no other country on earth can claim.; June 04, 2008 3:35 PM
Joshua said...: Yamaka,

All insurance is a scam. Even if you got the catastrophic health coverage, as soon as you need it, the insurance company will find an excuse to tell you that it is not a “covered” benefit. Trust me. I have dealt with enough insurance companies. Insurance companies exist to make money, not pay for services. They will delay and deny paying for claims as much as possible. If you sue them you will find that they enjoy legal exemption.; June 04, 2008 3:36 PM
Joshua said...: naiomi

Well said, and I agree. Kudos to your dad. I like an informed patient. It makes my job easier.; June 04, 2008 3:39 PM
UUbuntu said...: Yamaka -- good comment!

You should note though that the US spends 17% of its GDP on health care, whereas other 1st-world nations spend between 6 and 12%. Furthermore the other nations cover 100% of their populations, whereas the US leaves some 16% of its citizens without health insurance of any kind.

I agree with you in your recommendation to apissendant. Get some catastrophic coverage at the very least! Yes, insurance is a scam, but at least with regard to health care, the alternative is worse. And catastrophic coverage, because it is so limited in scope, is the cheapest form of coverage there is.

Obviously I believe that we should move toward single payer health care, but here in 21st century America, that won't happen any time soon. Insurance is the only defense against catastrophe.; June 04, 2008 3:43 PM
apissedant said...: mike,
Again, I agree, if you have the money, you're better off without insurance. You may get stuck with a big bill, but the odds are that you'll save money. If you don't have the money, the only way you can afford it is with insurance, so the risk is not worth it.

yam,
I am not a politician. I could go into a lengthy diatribe on what I believe would fix the health care system, but it would take forever, and it would accomplish little.
Instead I will be short and somewhat vague. I assure you I have thought through it, but I am avoiding my work while typing for the past two hours. This is a problem.

Look around the world and view how other people do business. Take what works, and ignore what doesn't. Start with our system and make small changes that have worked in other countries.

TELL PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES TO STUFF IT UP THEIR..... you know.

I invite you to research the story of Taxol. It is quite enlightening on the major pharmaceutical companies. In my research I found that most new drugs were actually discovered by US government workers, and not the drug companies. Since the government is not allowed to market and sell items in this country, they instead gave them away to private companies. These private companies then charged ridiculous amounts of money for the pills, and blamed R&D costs for the high prices. This despite the fact that they did not actually do the R&D on the drug in question, and their advertising budget was actually higher than their R&D costs.

Hospitals must charge the same rate for the same procedure. There is no charging someone with this type of health insurance 500 dollars, with this other insurance 1000 dollars, and with no insurance 2000 dollars. If it costs 2000 to do, all get charged 2000, if it costs 500, all get charged 500. If losses in some case raise the prices, then move it slightly up for all. The fact is, if you were uninsured, and the hospital hit you with a 2000 dollar bill for something they would have billed a wealthy insurance company 500 dollars for... and you could only afford it by missing a mortgage payment or skipping food for a few weeks, would you pay it?; June 04, 2008 3:43 PM
Joshua said...: apissedant

“I choose to be a Chemist and a teacher because I enjoy Chemistry and teaching, and I think I can make a difference.”

Precisely! Part of the reward for being a teacher is the sense of self-fulfillment. Ditto for physician. The market always determines the price. If you have a short supply of doctors, their service will cost more. If enough people think that doctors make too much money and the market agrees, more people will become doctors and the competition forces the wages down till it reaches a market level.

The problem is that not enough Americans understand economics. Econ 101 will teach you: SUPPLY AND DEMAND. The more the demand the more the price, the more the supply the less the price. Teachers are paid what they are paid because the pay is enough to attract so many candidates. Ditto for every job in America.; June 04, 2008 3:45 PM
apissedant said...: obviously the cost of programs is a problem,
One of the first steps is repealing Bush tax cuts, and finding a constructive and quick exit in Iraq. Then downsizing the military slightly, and stopping the huge contractor paychecks, especially for those who still have not provided the services being paid for. That can easily save at least 400 billion, which would more than pay for some slight changes, as well as reducing the deficit.

I do not advocate fast or immediate changes, as they typically do not work. Baby steps towards a better system. Small changes in regulations and applications to allow for a more rational system later.; June 04, 2008 3:47 PM
jpsedona said...: Yam,

At $4330 per person, insurance for a family of five would be prohibitive for many blue collar workers.

As you know, we ALL pay for the costs of the uninsured. We also pay for the litigation. Docs pay high premiums for their insurance.

And with the exception of some health plans like UnitedHealthcare, Aetna, Humana & other publicly traded companies, most inurers work on extremely small margins. One BCBS plan that I know generates a margin of 1%. Many such plans are not-for-profit.

There are tremendous amounts of inefficiencies and overhead within the current system. But if we think that social programs aren't going to bankrupt the country, a social medical program just might do it.; June 04, 2008 3:50 PM
Yamaka said...: beryl:

A few days ago Barack said that he would meet with Hillary "at a place and time of her choosing".

I believe he was sincere in saying so.

I believe very soon they both will meet and hash out the details and appear together in either NY/DC/Chicago.

Just give her some more time.; June 04, 2008 3:51 PM
apissedant said...: Mike,
Trust me, I'm no dumby on economy. However, most economic books are completely Republican crap. The last one I read actually told me that outsourcing jobs creates more jobs here. Anyone that buys that.... well... isn't too bright.

Again, it is not simply supply and demand for several reasons: A)GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION ALREADY IN PLACE
B)THE DIRECT AND IMMEDIATE DECISION OVER WHETHER OR NOT SOMEONE DIES
This is the big one, because the fact is, someone will pay every cent they have and a few more not to die. Doctors explain to us that without them, we die, and we quickly write a blank check. This does not work with teaching, driving a truck, or most other professions. Yes, Chemists, teachers, politicians, boichemists, biologists, and many other save lives. No one but a doctor does it right now, do or die. That is a unique position of influence and a high perch to barter over terms from.; June 04, 2008 3:51 PM
jpsedona said...: Aasp,

Show me a country of 300 million citizens with an entitlement to healthcare, and I'll show you a socialist form of government.; June 04, 2008 3:55 PM
Yamaka said...: jp:

I agree with you.

Last night I wrote about the things that Govt should move into to reduce the cost.

But again, from 14% of GDP we can go down to 10% of GDP. Not below than that.

You can check my Math!

GDP = 13 Trillion; 10% is 1300 billion, divide this with 300 million and you will get $4333 per person per year.

This is what all most ALL of the industrialized democracies spend on their National Health Care. They tax so much more than us on gas plus others to get that kind of revenue to pay for the Nationalized Health Care.

Here we have Govt, Insurance Co, Doctors and Consumers - all four adversaries are interacting to hike the cost to nearly $6066 per person per year.

As I mentioned last night, we ignore the preventive care, and spend too much on pre-born babies and very old people, who consume tons of dollars, and leave the middle poorly cared for, and leave 45 million totally in the cold uninsured.

We need a strong President and the Congress to set our priorities right and reform the Health Care Delivery in this country.

But again, the cost cannot go down below 10% of GDP a year!

What's your solution?

Who is going to pay for the blue-collar worker family?

How much healthcare can we levy on citizens?

:-); June 04, 2008 4:04 PM
apissedant said...: jpsedona,
Again, our government can be considered socialists in many aspects of the running. Also, I hate the 300 million number people always bring up. If Iceland, Ireland, England, France, Germany, Canada, Luxemburg, and eight other countries surpass us on anything, they explain it away with our size. We are the 4th largest nation in the world, so almost no one can compare to us in size. 70 million is quite difficult to handle too. There are over 200 countries, and only 3 are larger, so if a country must be larger than us for us to compare, then we are stacking the deck to always insure the outcome we desire. This is illogical form of thinking that does not work. Its sole goal is to negate instances where the answer is wrong. If I compared to China, you would then say that China is too large at 1.3 billion people, therefore only those nation with 300 million could count. Which means we could only compare ourselves with.... ourselves...; June 04, 2008 4:06 PM
apissedant said...: jpsedona,
Well Bush and Reagan with their ideas of free market nearly bankrupt our country. In fact, most of the time, the more free the market becomes, the closer we come to bankruptcy. Look back in time at all of the major panics and depressions. They typically occur when policies that libertarians and Republicans are currently advocating... were in use. The first major panic was after a war, where the stupid low tax government decided to print money instead of raise taxes, the second was after another stupid low tax government decided to destroy the national bank.... the list goes on...; June 04, 2008 4:09 PM
Unknown said...: Keryl,

Nice speech. I hope you don't mind if I don't hold my breath waiting to hear it from Senator Clinton. There is much calculating, negotiating, arm-twisting, fantasizing, and scheming to do before conceding and unifying.; June 04, 2008 4:09 PM
Yamaka said...: Oooops, my question was

How much healthcare TAX can we levy on the citizens?

No body wants to pay more tax!; June 04, 2008 4:10 PM
Joshua said...: Apissedant

“most economic books are completely Republican crap.” Spoken like the communist you are! That is what is great about Obama. You and I agree on Obama, but we disagree on everything else.

Peace.; June 04, 2008 4:11 PM
Mug said...: I think government regulation on the maximum a person can sue for malpractice should bring the cost of health care down considerably. With so many lawyers making a living as ambulance chasers and hospital bottom feeders, their greed contributes alot to the cost of health care. They would also be less likely to take on the more frivilous law suits if there was a cap on the amount they could sue for. Any thoughts?; June 04, 2008 4:16 PM
apissedant said...: mike,
I am not a communist, but thanks for levying a personal attack for no apparent reason except your inability to argue on facts. I now see why I have to tutor future doctors in Organic Chemistry.
Pure communism is as retarded and bankrupt as pure capitalism, which is why both have been abandoned. There is no truly free market in the world, and there is no truly completely government controlled market in the world. They both failed, and people realized the solution lies somewhere in the middle.

The basic premise of the economic theory, is that one country can produce one thing cheaper (less resources expended) than another country can produce it. The same is true in reverse with another product. The theories never use more than two products to compare, and each one is always better at producing something than the other. This is a truly simplistic and stupid view of the world. There are millions more than two items, there are more people trading than just two people, and some countries produce nearly EVERYTHING cheaper than we can produce them. This is not an allowed process in economics. There can only be two items, there can only be two people trading, and each much specialize in some form of production.

It is invalid before it even begins analyzing, because it starts in never never land, and continues to the final frontier.; June 04, 2008 4:20 PM
apissedant said...: Yam,
You are incorrect on how much they tax. If you break down the numbers, their overall tax rate is roughly the same as ours. We pay payroll taxes, income taxes, state taxes, corporate taxes, property taxes, city taxes, gas taxes, sales tax, and a million other taxes. Add up all the numbers, and we pay a very high overall tax. Mostly to fund war and debt. They have less debt, and a much smaller military, allowing the same tax to cover much more services.; June 04, 2008 4:22 PM
jpsedona said...: Yam,

The current health insurnace profile has older people paying signififcantly more than younger people. This isn't going to change; other than infants and pregnancy, the older you get, the more you access the system.

Flip the calender back 20 years... HMO's were going to be "the" solution. Now, they are practically unaffordable.

The current trend is toward high deductible plans. This is generally flawed because healthy-younger people gravitate toward those plans.

If we are talking about 'insurance', healthy people always pay for those requiring high cost benefits (e.g. accute illness or accident). With any type of insurance, this won't change.

I think we are headed full circle to indemnity / major medical coverage. Employers are a key to any solution... their underwriting of group policies keeps the out pocket cost of insurance low for a large percentage of people.

I think that there are ways to streamline the process... I'd be happy to layout my 'platform'...; June 04, 2008 4:25 PM
apissedant said...: the one major area I agree on is biofeul and the price of gasoline. Biofuel is absolute trash that does nothing to help the environment or the economy. It is a waste of our time and resources, that government imposed to make themselves look productive and caring. Fuel prices need to go up. Because fuel prices are so high in Europe and other countries due largely to taxes, they have a more environmentally and economically friendly system. They have working, useful public transportation, and they have more efficient vehicles.

The average car sold in Europe gets 44 miles per gallon. The average car sold in Japan gets 50 miles per gallon. The average car sold in America gets about 24 miles per gallon.
Higher prices will force the government and the people to take action and curb this giant problem. We drill more oil than almost any country on the planet, and we still end up buying more from outside our nation than any other country on the planet. We make up 5% of the world population, and 25% of the energy consumption.; June 04, 2008 4:26 PM
jpsedona said...: assp,

I would disagree with Mike, your thougts are socialist.; June 04, 2008 4:29 PM
apissedant said...: jpsedona,
If by socialist, you believe a man that believes in government oversight on private industry, and government management of vital industries, sure. As long as you also allow the freedom of choice for people to do whatever they want outside the system if they so choose. They don't get their tax dollars back, but if they want elective surgery, or surgery from a private company, they are free to pay for it themselves.
The exact same way we run schools. You can send your kid to a private school, but you are paying for it. Education is guaranteed free to every person, because it is essential to having a successful country. So are healthy workers. Without healthy workers we are nothing. What industrialized nation has a medical system like ours? Not one that I can think of. Most have gone to a more progressive system, and most now rank far above us.; June 04, 2008 4:36 PM
apissedant said...: yam,
I would guess DC or Chicago, not in Clinton territory. He has to appear as the strong leader. I would see New York as a bad choice for that.; June 04, 2008 4:39 PM
apissedant said...: capitalism

noun
an economic system based on private ownership of capital

socialism

noun
1. a political theory advocating state ownership of industry
2. an economic system based on state ownership of capital

com·mu·nism Audio Help (kŏm'yə-nĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
2. Communism
1. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
2. The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.

It is quite obvious that no country in the world operates any any one of these rules. Every country has some private ownership, and some government ownership. What is more, every country has government overseeing the private ownership to varying degrees. We are not capitalists, we are not socialists, we are not communists, the entire world is some mix of these systems. The degree of mixture varies, but the idea of mixture is universal.; June 04, 2008 4:45 PM
apissedant said...: ok, well I'll be back later.... gotta get work done...; June 04, 2008 4:46 PM
Joshua said...: Apissedant,

I take it back. I was being inflammatory and should not have called your idea communist. I agree with jpsedona. I really knew it should have been “socialist,” but I was trying to get a rise out of you. I apologize.

FWIW, I was a Chemistry major. Went up to Biochem and Physical Chem. It was in the early days of NMR. I entered college as a Bio major but found Chemistry a lot easier and more fun. Though my favorite was actually Math, there was not enough time to study everything I liked. But of all, the only thing that I took away from college was: PHILOSOPHY.; June 04, 2008 4:47 PM
Yamaka said...: "They would also be less likely to take on the more frivilous law suits if there was a cap on the amount they could sue for. Any thoughts?"

I agree. I wrote about this last night.

1. Many States are doing something about this, like here in TX.

Fed should do a major reform on Malpractice Suit.

a) First all complaints should go through a Initial Review Board consisting of Medics and Non-Medics to screen for the validity of the claim: this will weed out the spurious frivolous law suits.

b) Then those legitimate cases can go to the Courts.

c) The compensatory damages should be just, and the punitive damage should be to a small percentage of the CD.

d) The Medical Boards must be proactive in policing its members for poor practices. Licenses should
be revoked for persistent poor practices of the doctors.

e) Hospital born illnesses kill nearly 50,000 people a year. The Medical Profession should work very hard to bring this down.

:-); June 04, 2008 4:57 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Communism:
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.

I find it very interesting that the most avid anti-Communists are the fundamentalist Christians. Yet if they were to study early Christian history, they would find that those Christians, who lived especially in the area of Jerusalem until about 75 CE, and in Rome until the reign of Constantine, lived closer to the pure Communism style of society than any other.

The first Christian martyr was St. Stephen, who was in charge of distributing food, shelter and other needs to the Christian community in and around Jerusalem.

"To each as they need, from each as they can give."

This is not an argument FOR Communism. But I still find it strange that the very segment of society that it's very first members found necessary in order to survive now is the fiercest opponent to that method of organizing and running a society.

What needs to be done is find the good parts of a plan, look at the bad parts to determine if changes can be made to make them better, and then bring in new ideas that will help society as a whole. With many, the only thing they look at is 'what is in it for ME?' instead of also looking at what is best for society.

After all, if 10% of the population has 90% of the wealth, and 90% of the population has 10% of the wealth, the society may be good for that 10%, but the rest of society suffers. And eventually, the 90% will decide that something needs to be done.

Most revolutions in the past 300 years were caused by this maldistribution. France in 1789 and the mid-19th century; Russia in 1917; Mexico in 1910; China in the 30s and 40s, culminating in the downfall of the Nationalist government in 1949 are just a few examples.

Pure Communism won't work, but pure capitalism, especially Darwinian-capitalism (survival of only the fittest), won't work either. We should have learned that lesson in the late 19th century with the monopoly industries (oil, steel and railroads especially). Looks like a lot of people didn't study their history, and history of economics, to see what problems the 19th century monopolies caused.

Mike; June 04, 2008 5:29 PM
Joshua said...: Yamaka:
“Hospital born illnesses kill nearly 50,000 people a year.”

We call these nosocomial illnesses. Most are unavoidable and actually originate with the patient. The patient brings in something on his skin, etc. It somehow gets passed to another patient, and presto, you have a nosocomial infection. As long as we are humans, somethings are inevitable.

If sterilize every patient before you allow them to enter the hospital, it will whittle this down a lot.

Of course, some are due to poor hygiene on the part of the healthcare giver. But humans make mistake. The system, however, demands perfection for the healthcare system. We can only try.; June 04, 2008 5:31 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: Initial Review Board consisting of Medics and Non-Medics to screen for the validity of the claim

What function would the 'non-medics' serve on the board?

If it is for a medical issue, the review board should determine the medical issue. People not trained in medicine can NOT determine medical necessity, and can NOT determine what medical steps can be taken to solve the medical problem, if it is determined that there IS a medical problem in the first place.

Again, what function would the 'non-medics' serve on the board?

Mike; June 04, 2008 5:34 PM
apissedant said...: HOLY CRAP MIKE!!!
This is odd for me. I am really not used to being agreeable, but you sum up my words better than I can. That's really all I can say.

Second, and MOST IMPORTANT!!!
I have to confess, I read books on the supreme court for fun. I remember reading one about 3 years ago about the Reihnquest court. It was called "A Court Divided." In it, they talked about the limits that court had already placed on punitive damages.

THAT IS RIGHT! PUNITIVE DAMAGES ARE ALREADY CAPPED!!! There were several references to it in that book, and I thuroughly enjoyed and recommend the book. In any case, I didn't want to say anything, as I did not remember specifics or have any evidence, so I Googled for a while, and here is the result:
http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2004/0304court.html

I know, I know, you can't believe it is true. The Republicans told you about the runaway rewards and you bought it hook line and sinker. Well I am sorry to say, there is no argument, punitive damages have already been capped on the federal level. Read the article and you'll see the result. Once you have read the article, and read the current cap, then come back and argue. It works way better with facts.

Also, I have been way worse than a communist in my life, so I don't really care. However, when insults are used in place of facts and arguments, I do lose some respect for those arguing. Insults can be combined WITH facts and arguments though, I am completely ok with that.; June 04, 2008 5:39 PM
apissedant said...: to all about hospitals,
Some very important research is being done at VCU that you can also google. They have found a polymer coating that can be placed on surfaces that kills all bacteria for as long as the polymer coating is there. It is still in the development phase, as costs are currently quite high. Just another Chemist trying to save the world, 50,000 people at a time!; June 04, 2008 5:41 PM
apissedant said...: I believe the polymer from VCU also kills viruses, and pretty much everything, but it has been a few months since I attended the seminar. Look it up and you can see the details.; June 04, 2008 5:57 PM
suzihussein22 said...: afternoon folks...

rkw-The first movie I remember that quote from is Mulan from Mushu(Eddie Murphy).

Emma-1:43p.m.-Tell me about it!

markk-1:04a.m.-I respect your views. Presidents aren't gods. Do you want McCain to keep emergency powers? It would be helpful if you could show some stances he has on issues, because-

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/15227.html

I'm having a hard time believing his campaign promises.

Yamaka-WOW! Such a difference a day makes. I hope you're not yanking our chains.

Has anybody else read this?

http://tinyurl.com/67fco4

We needed to start this yesterday, but I'm glad all the delgates got to be added up. The people need all time they can get to hear more about Obama and the issues. Somebody at work is still saying Obama doesn't put his hand on his heart for the Pledge. Good grief!; June 04, 2008 6:32 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Yea!!

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=4995217&page=1

Who doesn't want positive reactions around the globe?; June 04, 2008 6:38 PM
jpsedona said...: Here's a quiz for ya:

Two heart surgeons. Each perform 100 operations. Doctor #1 has 1 patient die. Doctor #2 loses 5 patients. Which is the better doctor?

Answer: You can't tell. Some of the finest & most talented surgeons get the toughest cases. Those cases have a higher mortality rate.; June 04, 2008 6:41 PM
Meg said...: OK, I hate to be nit-picky, but I will because this is a blog...

Yamaka, as an English teacher, I can't help but notice how your command of the language has morphed in the last few days. What happened to your bizarre metaphors like, "Don't make hay while the house is burning"?

Are you / were you just cutting and pasting? Why?

So, who is Yamaka really, or perhaps we should ask who was Yamaka?; June 04, 2008 6:44 PM
suzihussein22 said...: Breaking news-

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=4705151&page=1

I hope this will be true closure for her campaign.; June 04, 2008 6:54 PM
tmess2 said...: Insurance is ultimately about spreading risk. That is how it started several hundred years ago and that is what it is primarily for today.

Putting to the side government requirements, folks get insurance to cover catastrophic damages. As a lawyer, I have malpractice insurance for the same reasons doctors have malpractice insurance -- we may never be sued but we can't afford the risk (however slight) of what could happen if we were sued.

The reasons for insurance is the same reason that we have corporation -- a way to limit the risk of loss. In a partnership, I am personally responsible for all debts of the partnership. In a corporation, I am only responsible for my personal investment.

The problem is that most health insurance isn't actually insurance -- rather it is a benefit designed to encourage the recipient of that benefit to engage in preventative medicine (annual checkups, etc.) or to otherwise cover routine expenses or to save for major expected investments. For example, God willing, most of us will get old and have the expenses associated with declining health in our late years.

By using a middle-person to pay these types of expenses, you increase costs because you have to pay that middle-person. While there are good sound economic and public health reasons to encourage average folks to engage in preventative medicine (a primary reason for national health services in other industrialized countries), we rejected that path in the 1940s and,as a result, stumbled into the use of private insurance when it became an employment benefit offered by businesses.; June 04, 2008 6:58 PM
suzihussein22 said...: On day one, the tally is Obama-1, McCain-0:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/04/mccains-day-marked-by-fal_n_105283.html

Do we want to make it the best out of 77 days? Would that be spotting McCain 1?; June 04, 2008 7:07 PM
mumblin said...: Obama pledges support for Israel

GREAT CHANGE !!!!
What a tosser, .

Where is the hope ?; June 04, 2008 7:10 PM
JayW said...: I cant believe we support Israel the way we do. They are like the 51st state.

I am surprised they didnt have a primary too... just like Guam.; June 04, 2008 7:15 PM
Yamaka said...: soft and emma:

Please read my posting at 2:43 pm to JayW.

The game is over - the players now hug and admire each other of the tenacity of their purpose!

Besides, I told you ALL that I will blog for Barack when he clinches the Nomination.

He did so very magnificently last night.

Yes, this morning I started blog for him! As simple as that.

Emma: I don't cut and paste anything!

__________________________

Mike:

The reason for including non-medics in the Initial Review Board of Medical Malpractice Suits is to give credence or support to the victims point of view in the Review.

Lest, it may be construed that the Medics just screwed everything up! In essence, this will add legitimacy to the process.; June 04, 2008 7:20 PM
Hippolytus said...: So Obama appoints a three person committee to help select his VP, which includes Jim Johnson (who has done it twice before), Caroline Kennedy, and Eric Holder. According to an article I read, "Holder is a former federal prosecutor and District of Columbia Superior Court judge who held the No. 2 job at the Justice Department under President Clinton."
Does anyone know anything else about Holder? Does anyone read any tea leaves from the persons picked for this committee? How about Caroline Kennedy pulling a Dick Cheney (who spearheaded Bush's VP vetting) and being selected herself?? I know, I know, lack of political experience, lack of contribution of electoral votes, etc., etc. But she'd be a pretty attractive candidate, wouldn't she?; June 04, 2008 7:21 PM
Meg said...: McCain is a really old guy, and he can't keep track of all the information. It's embarrassing when your support guy (Lieberman)has to correct you about Al-Queda in Iran in front of the press.

I predict more gaffes. Can't wait for the debates.; June 04, 2008 7:27 PM
Independent Voter said...: Aunt Jean,

I've been reading some of your posts from today and I have to say, you are coming around pretty quickly as did Yamaka.

Now it apparently she is suspending her campaign as of Friday. Although even a week ago I probably would NEVER say this, provided she keeps her word at suspending her campaign and endorses (as is being reported) Obama, I will be donating to her campaign in order for her to pay off her campaign debts even if that means some of it going back into her pocket.

The only thing I hope is that she pays off her vendors FIRST and NOT Mark Penn or herself. I don't know if she will do that, but I will donate IF she holds to her word as it is being reported right now.; June 04, 2008 7:30 PM
Hippolytus said...: JayW re: Yamamka vs. Aunt Jean,

I take your point, but I respect Yamaka because his change reflects a certain flexibility of mind that takes into account changed circumstances (i.e., th fact that Obama has clinched the nomination). I say this not to disparage Aunt Jean (I'm willing to give her and other Clinton diehards until the end of the week), but proper props to Yam for being a standup guy and a good Dem. I respect your view, though. If Maxine Waters and Barbara Boxer can get behind the presumptive nominee, so should Hillary's other supporters.; June 04, 2008 7:35 PM
Independent Voter said...: ss - that is f'ing hilarious! Once again the "straight talk express" has lost, forget the bearings, his MARBLES!; June 04, 2008 7:37 PM
JayW said...: Independent Voter,

I cant believe that you would donate to help pay off her debt.

Her campaign spent money they didnt have. That falls on her and her alone. Missmanagement of funds.

I agree, everyone should get paid that is supposed to... but the Clintons should pony up and pay it... not anyone else.

They arent hurting for money. They will still be able to eat, even if it costs them a few million to pay off their debt.

Maybe she can write a book on her experience running this campaign and make some (or all) of the money back... but it really is her responsibility to pay it.

If I start writing checks in excess of the balance in my account... will you send me money too?; June 04, 2008 7:38 PM
Oregon Dem said...: Hippo: Hope you got my vote

June 04, 2008 12:43 AM
Oregon Dem said...
Hippo:

Delegate count for Obama 2331 by Sunday night.

= = = = =

Yamaka - I still enjoy reading your posts :-)

= = = = =

So did you all hear that Senator Clinton will suspend her campaign and endorse Senator Obama on Friday. Well at least that is according to NY Times and NBC.; June 04, 2008 7:40 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: MSNBC is reporting that it was people like Rendel who told her to concede, concede soon, and to concede graciously. Otherwise there was ZERO chance of her being even considered for the VP slot (let alone being selected), plus her political future (whatever that will be) would be ZERO.

Also being reported is that she has almost no staff left, and what staff is left is so disorganized that they are not communicating with each other, so mixed messages are going out all over the place.

I hope she follows Rendel's advice.

Mike; June 04, 2008 7:44 PM
Independent Voter said...: Jayw,

LOL, I understand what you are saying, however I am willing to do it. The reason is because the faster it is paid off, the faster HER donors, especially their big donors, will donate to the Obama campaign. If they see that WE are willing to help her out, the more willing they will be to help build the Obama campaign's financial resources.; June 04, 2008 7:47 PM
jethrock said...: I can't believe Hillary is going to "suspend" her campaign on the anniversary of RFK's assassination considering her recent comments.

She could have done last night (when she should have), or today, tomorrow, or Saturday.

Once again this is an example of her bad taste and poor judgement.

I'm sickened, sad, and happy that Obama clinched this.

On to August, November, January... then we take our country back.; June 04, 2008 7:49 PM
apissedant said...: mike,
Agreed, AGAIN.
What's more I think there should be a at least a month between her suspending campaign and him offering the VP if he offers to do it.; June 04, 2008 7:50 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: SS,

Regarding the huffpost link, this part was FUNNY!:

just a few months ago when McCain defended those very votes on the back of his campaign bush [emphasis added]

Did the writer project McSame = Bush?

Mike; June 04, 2008 7:50 PM
Beryl said...: "Her campaign spent money they didnt have. That falls on her and her alone. Missmanagement of funds."
I agree, JayW.

It is the responsibility of HRC and her supporters to ensure that everyone gets paid. I hope they succeed in that regard.

OTOH, if Obama supporters chose to help a bail her out, that is their choice and I respect that. I just will not be joining them.; June 04, 2008 7:51 PM
Independent Voter said...: jethrock, from my understanding RFK was assassinated on June 5th (which would make tomorrow the anniversary).; June 04, 2008 7:53 PM
Hippolytus said...: Oregon Dem,
Got your vote - 2331. Strong! I hope you're right!; June 04, 2008 7:56 PM
Uncle John said...: Re Obama supporting Israel:

Well and good. He also said that the Palestinians deserve a "contiguous and coherent state".

I hope he's referring to those West Bank settlements, which the Israelis continue to expand, and which are an obstacle to peace.; June 04, 2008 7:56 PM
Miranda said...: Time reports she is quitting on Friday

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1811844,00.html; June 04, 2008 7:58 PM
Mike in Maryland said...: RFK was shot early in the morning of June 5 (California time), and died early on June 6 (again California time).

Therefore, since she brought up RFK's assassination within the last 10 days, neither date seems auspicious. It would be better to me if she did it tonight, or announce she will make an announcement tonight that she will make an announcement on Saturday.

Mike; June 04, 2008 8:02 PM
Oregon Dem said...: RFK died on June 6th 1968.

I date I shall never forget.; June 04, 2008 8:02 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; June 04, 2008 8:03 PM
Oregon Dem said...: Hippo:

I am the highest so far?; June 04, 2008 8:03 PM
vwis said...: All,

I'm glad to hear the Hillary has come to her senses and decided to make a gracious exit. Her timing could be better like asap or yesterday.

Let's all kiss and make-up. We have a greater purpose now. We really could use a pit-bull like Hillary to attack McCain. Also, we have to pay back the dittoheads that decided to weigh in on our pursuit of happiness and justice. Voting is essential to a democracy. We have & are sending our youth to war for the right.; June 04, 2008 8:03 PM
ed iglehart said...: Keryl,

Your speech is going on the BBC!

Hope you don't mind

xx
ed; June 04, 2008 8:06 PM
apissedant said...: hippo picked 1280, some other guy picked 1281, and I picked 1282... I'm a dick; June 04, 2008 8:06 PM
vwis said...: Ant,

Thanks, for the concern. I'm feeling somewhat better. This too shall pass
I was hoping to be the life of the party last night. Either that or a Harriet Christian.

Aunt Jean,

I'll attempt to check-in at about 9-10 pm. I'd like to blog with you.; June 04, 2008 8:07 PM
Independent Voter said...: Thank you for the correction on RFK. I had thought he passed the same day. Horrible day.; June 04, 2008 8:10 PM
apissedant said...: vwis,
Glad to hear it... we've missed you here! Go get Leah too, she has been neglecting her duties as cheerleader/mother; June 04, 2008 8:11 PM
Leah Texas4Obama said...: Hippolytus-

Aunt Jean said...

obama 2253.; June 04, 2008 8:13 PM
apissedant said...: oh, leah is here... I missed your posts somehow! My bad.; June 04, 2008 8:14 PM
JayW said...: vwis...

You wrote:
"I'm glad to hear the Hillary has come to her senses and decided to make a gracious exit."

_______________

Are we really sure it is going to be a "gracious exit"? I would hope that it is but my faith in her choice of words has diminished each time she has spoken.

I hope you are right... but she is really unpredictable. It is very sad in my opinion. I used to think she was great and supported her... the more I heard her speak, the more I wanted to distance myself from her.

It is really her last chance to turn the impression I have of her around and I think a lot of people are of the same opinion as me.

So, like I said, I hope you are right and it is a gracious exit... but I am not getting my hopes up.; June 04, 2008 8:15 PM
apissedant said...: jay,
You're superman, you can make her do it if she doesn't want to.; June 04, 2008 8:16 PM
apissedant said...: Ed, shouldn't you source your quotes? ;); June 04, 2008 8:18 PM
JayW said...: I really do love the pic of Obama in front of the superman statue in the same pose... it is very symbolic.; June 04, 2008 8:19 PM
apissedant said...: I like the picture of me in front of a flowing river. It is symbolic of the fact that I pee too much.; June 04, 2008 8:22 PM
JayW said...: As long as it doesnt burn when you pee you are doing OK.; June 04, 2008 8:23 PM
apissedant said...: no comment; June 04, 2008 8:25 PM
JayW said...: So it does burn?

Thats not good.; June 04, 2008 8:27 PM
Beryl said...: "So, like I said, I hope you are right and it is a gracious exit... but I am not getting my hopes up."

Having been disappointed too many times, I've given up with this expectation. OTOH, I believe in redemption so if she graciously exits and gives Obama (not just his staff) his well-deserved accolades, I will be a very, very happy lady.

She will have my prayers over the next couple of days.; June 04, 2008 8:31 PM
Unknown said...: It doesn't matter to me that Hillary will be forced to concede and forced to endorse Obama.

I still will not vote for Obama.

I still will not vote for Obama even if he names her for VP.

I will do whatever I can to help elect McCain.

Obama is unelectable and will not win in November.

McCain 2008 Hillary 2012; June 04, 2008 8:33 PM
Independent Voter said...: lee,

THAT'S STUPID, which means YOU'RE stupid for going 100% against what SHE and YOU believe in. I hope you don't have kids. If you do and you vote for McCain, you can count on the draft being reinstated, and don't think for a minute they won't include females in that draft!; June 04, 2008 8:36 PM
apissedant said...: independent,
Look at the bright side, you'll be exempt from the draft. ;); June 04, 2008 8:38 PM
Independent Voter said...: That's true, however friends and relatives of mine won't be. :(; June 04, 2008 8:42 PM
Unknown said...: Independent Voter:

You are missing one key point.

The Dems will control Congress.; June 04, 2008 8:42 PM
suzihussein22 said...: independent voter-funny but true-

http://tinyurl.com/54solz

Notice the last part of his statement...and now this-

..."this has got to do with vital national security issues."

At issue was a comment he made at a town hall-style meeting Friday morning in Denver.

"My friends, I will have an energy policy that we will be talking about, which will eliminate our dependence on oil from the Middle East that will prevent us from having ever to send our young
men and women into conflict again in the Middle East," McCain said.

So is it national security or is it controlling foreign oil?; June 04, 2008 8:45 PM
Oregon Dem said...: Hold on there!

The Repugnicans will never reinstitute the draft - McCain included.

If they did then there would be more outrage against this war and it would look more like the 60's with Vietnam type protests and that is the last things they want.

I mean look at McCain saying lets not reward out GIs well for there service with educational benefits because they may not stay in the army....; June 04, 2008 8:50 PM
Oregon Dem said...: Oh and my choice of RFK for my picture is because he was and still is my hero.

- -

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were, and ask why not? Robert F Kennedy; June 04, 2008 8:53 PM
Independent Voter said...: exactly ss. It is all about oil as it has always been.; June 04, 2008 8:54 PM
Independent Voter said...: lee - don't be so sure that Dems will control congress. If people like you vote for McSame it will bring others out and will be voting for Reps for Congress.; June 04, 2008 8:55 PM
Kujo said...: Lee:

I am trying to understand your position.

1. Obama is unelectable so you will vote for McCain.... So what your saying is you will only vote for the winning side....but that does not make sense because you voted for Clinton.

2. You really do not like the policies of Clinton, but you are voting for her because she is female.

3. You are racist.

4. You are a soar loser.

5. You are really like Clinton because she is a female and realize that Obama is so strong that if he is elected he will impress everyone int the US and around the world to such an extent that the US will change the laws so he can be president for life and Clinton will never get a chance.

6 Your being held at gun point to make these statements.

7 You are just plain stupid

Hmmmm I figure its probably 2,3,4,5 and 7

I'd like to hear some more input from others on whats wrong with Lee.; June 04, 2008 8:56 PM
Independent Voter said...: Oregon Dem - Hold on there!

The Repugnicans will never reinstitute the draft - McCain included.

If they did then there would be more outrage against this war and it would look more like the 60's with Vietnam type protests and that is the last things they want.

I mean look at McCain saying lets not reward out GIs well for there service with educational benefits because they may not stay in the army....

-------

Problem with that OD, McCain and the Republicans don't care. McCain voting against the GI Bill goes to show that he will have no problem reintroducing the draft. Whether he wants to or not, it would have to be reinstated, otherwise we won't have enough servicemen & women to sustain the current troop levels (this is according to the generals on the ground).; June 04, 2008 8:58 PM
Independent Voter said...: kujo, I think you've covered it; June 04, 2008 9:00 PM
Beryl said...: Watching "The Verdict" on MSNBC. Abrams shared a story that HRC in the VP spot is "highly unlikely". The Clinton's unwillingness to release tax records was the "deal-breaker".; June 04, 2008 9:03 PM
suzihussein22 said...: independent voter-Your future's so bright, you gotta wear shades. :)

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1805535166/photo/537664

But do you make them look goood?; June 04, 2008 9:06 PM
JayW said...: I really think the draft is off the table.

Unless we are actually being invaded and need mindless bodies to stop bullets, there will not be another draft.

I served in the Army. No one in the armed services wants to serve next to someone that was drafted and doesn’t want to be there.

You have to trust the people you serve with to have your back in very risky situations. No one wants to be stuck in a foxhole with a guy (or woman) that was placed there against their will... it just doesn’t give you warm feelings thinking someone doesn’t have your back and would rather not be there.

The volunteer military works. It would work better if the government agreed to increase pay (by quite a bit) to get more quality people to enlist... but forcing them is not the answer.

I'll never forget the sergeant I knew (serving stateside) that had to have a second job as an EMT at night just to have enough money to support his family. That is CRAZY.

The government must realize that protecting American interests in the military is one of the most important and honorable jobs there is and reward the people that do so accordingly.; June 04, 2008 9:07 PM
Independent Voter said...: ss - LOL; June 04, 2008 9:10 PM
RobH said...: Somebody here was wanting to urge Sen. Maria Cantwell (WA)
to endorse the pledged delegate leader, according to her status in the "Pelosi Club"

As I post, said Senator remains a Clinton endorser. I wonder what happened.; June 04, 2008 9:13 PM
ed iglehart said...: Ant,

Re sourcing quotes, I sent the speech withn a link back to the original, as I did with my note to Keryl, whichn included a link to me quoting her speech.

Sadly, for reasons best known to the BBC moderators (who are as Gods), the post is still "in moderation", which has two possible outcomes
1. It will be posted eventually (unlikely)
2. It will be 'removed' and replaced by a message saying it was judged to break the "house rules", and I will (eventually receive an email purporting to explain vaguely why they think it broke the rules, and inviting me to correct the offence and re-submit......

By which time, of course, Keryl's brilliant speech will not be topical .

;-(
ed; June 04, 2008 9:17 PM
Independent Voter said...: Pissed ant - independent,
Look at the bright side, you'll be exempt from the draft. ;)

-----

Like I said I will be exempt (at this point) but friends and relatives of mine wouldn't be.

With that said, I've been kicked out once (ONLY for being gay), I could see it now, they suspend DADT, draft me, and then when the war is over kicking us out again. That would just suck.

-----

jayw - the Democrat Charles Rangel introduced legislation (2006) to reinstate the draft and at that time, Republican Lindsay Graham agreed that the military was stretched thin and that he said "I think we can do this with an all-voluntary service, all-voluntary Army, Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy. And if we can't, then we'll look for some other option."

So the option is not 100% off the table and if McCain is in office and insists on staying in Iraq (and possibly attack Iran) then something's going to have to give.; June 04, 2008 9:20 PM
Unknown said...: Kujo:

I voted for Hillary in the primaries because I believe she would make the best president.

I am voting for McCain in the general because I believe he would make a better president than Obama.

I am not voting for Obama because he does not have the experience or judgment to be president. I also believe his "change Washington" promise is ridiculous considering 90%+ of the Senators and Representatives will be the same in January 2009 as they are today.

It is amazing how Obama supporters attack anyone who won't vote for Obama as a racist.

McCain 2008 Hillary 2012; June 04, 2008 9:23 PM
dsimon said...: Mike: All insurance is a scam. Even if you got the catastrophic health coverage, as soon as you need it, the insurance company will find an excuse to tell you that it is not a “covered” benefit.

I can tell you from personal experience that's not true. I have "major medical" insurance, which is essentially catastrophic care. I've had two incidents (one with ongoing maintenance), and no arguments with the insurer about covering costs.

And even if I had never had incidents, the insurance would have been worth it. Money that doesn't have to be saved just in case of a catastrophic incident can be put to work elsewhere. Plus there's the added peace of mind that comes with coverage.

There was a good Frontline documentary recently, "Sick Around the World" looking at how other countries run their health care systems and manage as good outcomes as ours at far lower cost. You can watch it online.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/; June 04, 2008 9:30 PM
Independent Voter said...: lee, you're "logic" (using the word VERY loosely) is extremely FLAWED!

What this PROVES is that you were NOT voting based on issues! You are voting based on either gender or race or a combination of both!

Why do I say this? I say it because Clinton and Obama's platforms are 95% identical.

I for one hope you can LIVE with yourself knowing how much BLOOD will be on your hands, yet alone how far back you will be setting women's rights - at least 3 decades.; June 04, 2008 9:31 PM
JagMan said...: No more soldier worship please! We all give that lip service but who then signs up? People who need and want money and benefits. Nothing wrong with that its just the right wingers like Bush and McCain won't "support our heroes" anymore because they are done using them. Why would McCain a veteran suddenly vote against a new GI Bill he love every other defense project that came down the pike before the Republicans lost congress now they go back to the scoudrels they have always been. "Fiscal Conservatives" well those "conservatives" in name only presided over the largest increase in the debt in the history of the United States!; June 04, 2008 9:33 PM

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