Wednesday, November 19, 2008

Minnesota Recount Update

WE'VE MOVED! Democratic Convention Watch is now at http://www.DemocraticConventionWatch.com

Update: MPR has notes on the recounts at various locations today. And they also have a great selection of challenged ballots that we can all have an opinion on.

With 18% of the votes counted, Coleman lost 86 votes, and Franken lost 45 votes, for a net gain for Franken of 41 votes, cutting the lead to 174.

However, Coleman has challenged more ballots, 146 to 123 for Franken. If you assume each ballot has a 50% chance of being approved, than Coleman could gain back a net 11-12 votes. But who knows if that assumption is real. The Coleman challenges could have a lower threshold than the Franken challenges, which would mean a lower % of their challenged ballots might be approved. Are new Franken voters more likely to to not have filled out their ballot correctly? It's really hard to tell.

The above was due to a misunderstanding of what a challenged ballot is. Ballots are placed in 3 piles: Coleman, Franken, or novote/other vote. Franken, for example, could challenge a ballot going into Coleman's pile (Challenge Type A), or he could challenge a ballot he would like to go into his own pile but went into the "no vote" pile (Challenge Type B). If we assume all the lost votes are due to Type A challenges, we can do a little math.

Assume 75% of the Type A challenges are allowed. This seems reasonable, as the recount officials felt they should be allowed. Coleman gains back 64, Franken gains back 34, for Coleman +30.

The rest are Type B challenges. Coleman has 146 - 45 (Franken lost votes) = 101. Franken has 123 - 86 (Coleman lost votes) = 37. Assume 25% of these votes get allowed. Coleman picks up a net 16, For a total net challenges gain of 46. Which gives him a net gain on the day of +5.

Let us know what you think of this analysis.

Also, Franken did win a potentially significant court case today, giving them information on voters whose absentee ballots were rejected.

Comments (52)

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Long Island Democrat's avatar

Long Island Democrat · 854 weeks ago

I'm under the impression that the challenged ballots are removed from each person's count pending review - this is why each candidate lost votes rather than gaining them. If each ballot has a 50% chance of being approved, Franen would gain another 11-12 votes.
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1 reply · active 854 weeks ago
This is pretty confusing in writing. I've always hated word problems. I miss the superdelegate widgets. lol

So if i have this straight, of the 18 percent they counted today, there are now 131 pending votes that they haven't awarded to either candidate?
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1 reply · active 854 weeks ago
It seems from looking at the recount rules that there are five piles -- unchallenged votes for Coleman, unchallenged votes for Franken, all other unchallenged ballots (overvotes, undervotes, and votes for other candidates), ballots challenged by Franken, and ballots challenged by Coleman.

I don't think there is any good count as to the reasons for the challenges, so we don't know if they were ballots with votes for the opposing candidate that were "erroneously" proposed to be counted or if they were votes fro the challenging candidate that were "erroneously" proposed to be excluded.

The labels used by the Secretary of State on his website contribute to the confusion by describing Franken's challenges as "Coleman and other ballots challenged by Franken" and describing Coleman's challenges as "Franken and other ballots challenged by Coleman."

Unless the MST has someone observing each table tracking and reporting how the challenges break down, I don't think we have a way of determining how many of each candidate's challenges are ballots they want kept out and how many are ballots they want added in.
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I am not sure (based on the equipment review) that all of the lost votes ended up as a Type A challenge or that all of the remaining challenges are type B challenges. From the equipment review, it appears that there will be ballots counted by the machine that will be rejected by the counting team (making any challenge to them type B challenges) and there will be ballots rejected by the machine but accepted by the counting team (making any challenges to them Type A challenges).
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1 reply · active 854 weeks ago
Matt you are very wrong! It is all maths! First it looks like after closer look at the challenges that both campaigns have challenged mostly the other campaign's votes instead of claiming extra votes for themsleves. Yet it is obvious that Franken challenged more votes from the 'other votes' pile with the desire to win them. The ballot itself supported such situation since Franken was listed below Coleman. So we can safely presume that 80-85% of the A challenges will uphold, and 25-30% of B type wil uphold. If we assume Coleman has 80% A type and Franken 70% A type than the net gain is 29 for Franken - 111 versus 82. Sounds good!
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1 reply · active 854 weeks ago
Let me give a more digital explanation:
Coleman challenged 146 ballots. We assume that 80% - 117 were votes for Franken and 85% will uphold and go to Franken - 100 votes. The other 29 challenged votes are a try for Coleman to add to his own. 30% success - 9 votes for Coleman.
Franken campaign challenged 123 ballots. 70% are presumably cast for Coleman - 85% of that uphold - 73 votes for Coleman. 30% are a try for Franken - 30% success of 37 - 11 more for Franken.
Total Franken 100 + 11 = 111
Total Coleman 73 + 9 = 82
Net gain Franken 29 votes
That will make the total for the day about 75 votes gain for Franken
Remember: the more challenges by Coleman - the more votes for Franken
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2 replies · active 854 weeks ago
Not exactly :) Actually the big difference comes from St. Louis. There were many new ballots, or undervote there, because of the machines. Votes were added for both candidates, there were push for more to be added and there were also some challenged. But if you remove St. Louis and Ramsey from the pile it is 80 votes (45 24 11) lost by Franken and 114 (146-31-1) challenges by Coleman. That is over 70% direct challenges to the other campaign result. I assume it is actually near 80% for Coleman and almost the same figure for Franken.
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1 reply · active 854 weeks ago
CA Pol Junkie's avatar

CA Pol Junkie · 854 weeks ago

I think there will be alot more Type A challenges than Type B. There will be a decent number of ballots with a candidate's name circled or an X in the oval which would not be read by machine but would be obvious for one candidate or the other. With some ballots added to the total like that, there won't be alot of room for Type B while still reducing each candidate's total by the right amount.
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Plus I suggest you take a look at Dakota, Hennepin, Lake, Pipestone, Washington. The numbers show that most if not all challenges are type A. In St. Louis I presume most Coleman challenges are also type A and so are those of Franken. That situation strongly favors Franken. In worst case scenario he will win only 15 votes from today's challenges!
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3 replies · active 854 weeks ago
I am typically pretty good at math, but not a damn thing said here or in the twelve comments made makes a lick of sense to me. wake me when its over lol.
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4 replies · active 854 weeks ago
BTW the voters database with the rejected absentees will give some extra votes to Franken - Dems are really skilfull in such cases plus he has an army of lawyers and staff to investigate every single case. That is why the campaign still needs money!
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Under the (largely) Type A assumption -- Franken has 23 more potential votes in the challenges

But -- if the challenges are largely of Type A -- then Franken has also added in up to 100 new votes. So, he's closed about half the gap with more than 80% of the vote uncounted. It's in those new votes where the gap will be made up, but the trendline would suggest there might be another five hundred new votes for Franken. More than enough to make up the 200 vote difference at the start of the recount.

Assuming ya'll are right that the vast majority of the challenges are Type A challenges...
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1 reply · active 854 weeks ago
I've done some analysis of the results available on the official recount website. Extrapolating from the 18% that have been reported so far:
* If we only look at the precincts that have already reported. I project the count difference will be +128 (that is Franken gains by 128 votes). These precincts account for 72% of all the votes.
* If I assume that we take into account all of the precincts, and assume that the voting trend is the same for those that have not started the counting yet then the count difference is +210-235 (I'm predicting between 210 and 235 through analysis by two different methods.

In any case, considering the current difference is currently ~200 votes pre-recount (in favor of Coleman), then this recount is likely to make the situation "worse". i.e. the recount will leave us with a difference that will be incredibly small and probably encourage lawsuits, etc.

Any questions?

Charles.
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at what point does one vote win an election? how many recounts can they have before the election is certified, whether the leader be franken or coleman?
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I agree with Matt and Charles about the margin. Nate Silver has done some predictions too and his model suggest only one thing - we can not extrapolate the results so far since they are not equally spread. I guess Franken will gain some extra 30-40 votes from St. Louis since the bad machine precincts are half counted. Ramsey is interesting with +11 for Franken on 15% of the votes and practically no challenges. If they keep the pace that will be some more 55-65 votes for Franken. My guess is that the recount will end up +30 or +40 for Coleman, but he will have also the most challenges (maybe 700 to 600) and will lose at the canvass board. Or finally the votes left in that car for several days can be the key to success for Franken. At the moment I give Franken 80% chance to win the election but I will be suprised if he wins by more than 100 votes.
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you might say we are about one side or angle short of being able to solve this triangle!
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With 18% of the recount done, there are 269 challenged ballots- almost equally distributed between Franken and Coleman challenges. At this rate, there will be 1494 challenged ballots total, and in order for Franken to make up the initial 200+ vote lead that Coleman has, he has to win about 57% to 43% on those ballots. Does not seem likely to me. And yet, I hope!
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1 reply · active 854 weeks ago
Great Link for the 1974 NH Senate race- and the real kicker is that it seems as if the Dem in the contest was my attorney's father!

http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minut...
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any idea what the historical record either in percentages or raw numbers for a close us senate race? obviously, the record since we began direct elections...
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It is not equal distribution - Coleman is protesting 20% more ballots, so he will have 100-150 more challenges at the end. That means Franken will have 100+ votes in reserve!
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On the lizard people ballot, it seems that the statute is clear that if you write in a name that counts as a vote for the write-in.

On the "underline" ballot, that looked more like a strike-through (i.e. cancelling the vote) than an underline.

There seemed to be a lot of stray marks that folks were trying to claim were votes.
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I was able to embed the Star Tribune's recount summary. It will update automatically and we'll bump the post to the top on a regular basis.

http://www.demconwatchblog.com/2008/11/minnesota-...
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Having just come from the Minneapolis recout facility I assure Tom that 12 pecincts were actually counted todau and they plan on finishing another 12 to day and tomorrow. Thier statagy is to count the largest precincts first and they ran late yesterday so the count didn't make the report. By the way 12 precincts is about 13%. I an election judge and I will counting on Saterday. Should be interesting. My precinct had 1246 total ballots with 145 for Barkley; 321 for Coleman: 738 for Franken; 10 for others; 0 undervotes; and 29 undervotes.
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I'm sorry - 12 precincts counted yesterday
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