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I take a lot of grief from people who disagree with me that all Americans should be able to name all fifty states and their capitols. But I think it matters that people know what's where.
You may remember that John McShame thought that Spain was in Latin America. His geographic knowledge knows NO BOUNDS as he thinks that Venezuela is in the Middle East.
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Vicki 51p · 858 weeks ago
holding.back.on.snark ....
aroth · 858 weeks ago
Knowing all 50 capitols and their corresponding states is pointless for 99.9% of people. It's just pure memorization of facts, and the value of memorization has all but evaporated with the evolution of the Internet. It just makes no sense for the average person to waste their time or mental facilities simply trying to memorize information that can more easily (and more accurately) be recalled by performing a simple Google search or Wikipedia lookup. It's much more productive, and would result in people being more capable overall, if instead of simply memorizing facts they devoted their effort to refining how they put those facts to use, expanding their abilities to analyze, think critically, and come up with novel solutions to problems. You can't memorize how to do those things, but you can learn it, with practice. And the less time people waste on pointless memorizations tasks that have been rendered obsolete by technology anyways, the more time they have to spend working on improving skills which aren't so readily supplanted by technology.
Karen Anne · 858 weeks ago
DocJess 71p · 858 weeks ago
So, for example, instead of having to access a calculator, when in an store, I can calculate the better price per ounce of two different sizes of a product for the various prices. Because, dammit, I wasted all that time learning my multiplication tables, plus having paid attention in math class when they did word problems.
It really scares me every time I realize that someday, these people who refuse to own knowledge will not know whether to mail a package to Paris, Texas or Paris, France. Also, that when they have to give a patient an injection, they won't know the difference between a 1 cc dosage and a 100 cc dosage.
"Rote memorization" occurs when one things that information is the exact equivalent of facts. Facts become information when you own it, and can use it in context. For example, I can name all 12 cranial nerves, which would be rote memorization to someone else, but to me, is very helpful in being able to diagnose neurologic deficits based on symptomatology. Those little "factoids" like blood pressure of 75/40 is shock and 110/70 is not is really important in knowing what to do with a patient at an accident scene.
Knowledge is power.
aroth · 858 weeks ago
You contradict yourself at the end, and you also seem to have missed the point in my second paragraph. As you point out in your closing paragraph, facts only become useful when you have the skills to actually apply them towards some purpose. For some people, memorization of certain facts can make sense. Take your blood pressure example, for instance. That's clearly something that's useful for a doctor/EMT/first responder to be aware of. By itself, however, that fact is of little use to the average person. They haven't been trained to be a medical professional or first responder, and likely lack the skills and equipment to even measure someone's blood pressure, or to administer successful treatment after diagnosing someone as being in shock. To them, it's just a useless peice of information
aroth · 858 weeks ago
So I'm not saying that nobody should ever memorize anything, just that it doesn't make sense to assert that *everyone* should have to memorize some specific tidbit of information, as most people will have little to no use for something such as a memorized list of state capitols (and please don't assert that learning math is somehow comparable to memorizing state capitols, it's really not). What good does that do you when the power goes out, apart from maybe helping you win the candlelit game of Trivial Pursuit?
If a certain fact is important and relevent to some specific skill that you are trying to learn (like blood-pressure:EMT or state-capitols:politician), then by all means memorize it. But that memorization isn't valuable for individuals who don't have/want that skill (or in other words, the memorization only has value when viewed in a context that associates it with a specific skill, and by itself is worthless), so there's little sense in asserting that everyone should have to memorize fact X or fact Y. Skills are all about the application of facts, not the recollection of facts.
Knowledge of facts is almost worthless. Knowing how to apply facts is power.
DocJess 71p · 858 weeks ago
Sadly, the things we all USED to learn in school is considered unimportant nowadays. Whether AN individual happens to know all the state capitols is not that critical, HOWEVER it's not just that most people don't know that information they also don't know how many sections there are in the constitution, nor how many amendments. And I'm telling you, if you don't know "how much" you don't know "what". I guarantee you that the people who can cite and explain all 27 amendments to the Constitution "OWN" that there are 27 amendments. And what is in the constitution DOES matter. If more people knew what was in it, they would have stood up and loudly shouted "NO" as the Bush administration eviscerated its parts.
One cannot apply facts he does not know.
aroth · 858 weeks ago
For instance, consider programming. I may not know what the exact syntax is for a for-each loop in Javascript. But that doesn't stop me from understanding conceptually what a for-each loop is, or how to use one. I just need to query for an example of the syntax, and then away my code goes.
But yes, I don't dispute that having some basic knowledge of the U.S. Constitution is valuable. However, that is far removed from having a memorized list of state capitols. Also, there's a difference between understanding that the First Amendment protects freedom of speech, religion, and assembly and being able to recite it verbatim. The former is important, while the latter is not. And if too much focus is given to the latter, you risk ending up with people who can recite the words, but have no idea what they actually mean, which is even worse than not knowing them at all.
DocJess 71p · 858 weeks ago
On primary day, 2006, I was sitting in my kitchen, reading the USA Today newspaper. There was an article on immigration on the first page, and a graphic pointing out that one of the questions on the citizenship exam to become a US citizen involved being able to list the rights assured by the First Amendment. I read the article, turned to the second page, and there it was, the "official" answer.
Aroth thinks it's okay to know that the First protects freedom of speech, religion and assembly. USA Today knew those, too. They also knew about the right to petition. BUT because I OWN the knowledge that there are **FIVE** facets, I also knew that "freedom of the press" is another facet of the Amendment.
If Aroth was grading the exam, he/she wouldn't know that there are FIVE facets, because the test answer key said there were four answers. Therefore, people who got the question correct might be marked wrong. Mostly though, the tragedy, as Karen Anne mentioned, is that Aroth WOULD NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE.
And yes, I did call the paper, and they printed a correction. They blamed it on the fact that they copied the question FROM the actual exam. (I have no idea if that is true). More the pity.
aroth · 858 weeks ago
And you're wrong, anyways. The First Amendment actually has **SIX** facets, because in addition to the rights it protects, it also PROHIBITS the government from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion". You were so sure about your "ownership" of the information that you didn't bother to do a fact-check before making your assertion.
And to be clear, the source I paraphrased (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_amendment) when I made the original post about the First Amendment does correctly list all six facets. I just had to leave some out to get around that damned character limit.
Karen Anne · 858 weeks ago
And that's the last second I spend on this topic.
aroth · 858 weeks ago
If all your contributions are going to consist of are wholesale misrepresentations of my points and thinly veiled personal attacks, then yes, please do remove yourself from the conversation.
Karen Anne · 858 weeks ago
If I follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion, kids can just skip school entirely and practice reasoning.
They won't know if a Presidential candidate is an idiot because he thinks Spain is in Latin America. They won't have the slightest idea of how to estimate quantities or to know if their calculator is broken and producing wrong results because nothing in their experience gives them an idea of magnitude. When Big Oil collapses or they fall on hard times, they will have no idea how to grow food, preserve it, or repair their clothes.
If their car develops a squealing noise when they step on the brakes, they will believe the mechanic who says it’s a transmission problem and will cost $1000.
The possibility that they will make mistakes or wrong judgments goes thru the ceiling, because they have no context. They don't know what it is that they don't know.
They won't be able to evaluate plans because they won't know what has failed and what has worked in the past.
Of course, US history and the principles on which this country was founded is a biggee.
If they don't have a basic knowledge of health, they will miss or overemphasize problems. No tetanus shots for them if they jab themselves with a rusty nail. And I guess they'll just slurp down any med a doc suggests without even thinking to ask about side effects or if it has been on the market long enough for problems to show up.
This has me more worked up than banning books, because books can at least be circulated covertly. Deliberately choosing to be ignorant, I have no idea how to address that. In fact, I am starting to think, troll.
aroth · 858 weeks ago
Yes, people who build their life around politics should be held to a higher standard, because they may have a legitimate need to recall this information on the spot, without having the time/opportunity to look it up first. But to assert that "all Americans" should be wasting their time on pointless memorization is way off base. Far better for them to take the time that they would waste memorizing and spend it doing something to expand their reasoning and critical thinking abilities, such as reading a novel or learning a new skill.
Adam · 858 weeks ago
So, in this case, McCain flubbed the specifics, but the general concept is still valid.
tmess2 70p · 858 weeks ago
Steve O · 858 weeks ago
That's not an attempt to give McCain a pass on flubbing Venezuela's location, since we should hold politicians -- particularly politicians who are running for an office where they will send money, troops, or diplomats to all corners of the world -- to a higher standard, but to require it of all Americans smacks of elitism.
Karen Anne · 858 weeks ago